Rings of Power: Endless Cantrips and Eldritch Invocations Included

[Basement Cat]

EDIT: Perhaps I should mention that I'm hoping to introduce a Ring of Power into my game? I'd really appreciate some input here, folks. :smalleek:

Looking through the DMG's treasure department and it's obvious that some item ratings seem incredibly unbalanced.

Thanks to Tolkein (I presume) a Ring of Invisibility (spell level 3) is a Legendary item while a Ring of Telekinesis (spell level 5) is Very Rare.

So my friends and I were talking about how Rings with Cantrips would rate. A limitless Ring of Mage Hand shouldn't rate too high, after all, while a limitless combat cantrip, i.e. Ring of Fire Bolt or Ring of Shocking Grasp (always 1st level power) would be deserve a higher rating.

The conversation turned to Rings of Power i.e. rings with multiple non-combative abilities including:

*Mage Hand
*Message
*Prestidigitation
*Minor Illusion
*Light
*Mending

Most of us figure such a ring would rate Very Rare or Legendary if the powers all have unlimited uses. But some argue that the Ring of Telekinesis vs Ring of Invisibility things suggest that the more limited a spell--i.e. Invisibility is more useful than Telekinesis even if Invisibility is a lower level spell--the lower the treasure value rating and thus such a ring should rate Rare or Very Rare at the most.

We know there are rules in the DMG for crafting stuff but this is definitely Homebrew territory so I'm seeking comments from others.

The simplest suggestion would be that any ring would start at Uncommon and move up a rating with each additional cantrip.

Also: How would you rate a ring with Warlock Eldritch Invocations? As a DM I've thought about having magical rings or bracers that provide Eldritch Spear and/or Repelling Blast abilities but can only be used (naturally) if someone already has the Eldritch Blast cantrip.

[CursedRhubarb]

The Ring of Invisibility also stores the soul of the wearer in it if they die, making it a fallback plan to be resurrected if you get killed, even by a Disintegration spell. A soul stored in the ring can also communicate telepathically with someone who wears the ring.

Without the soul storing and communication ability I think it wouldn't be a Legendary item but rare or very rare.

[TheForgottenMyt]

The Ring of Invisibility also stores the soul of the wearer in it if they die, making it a fallback plan to be resurrected if you get killed, even by a Disintegration spell. A soul stored in the ring can also communicate telepathically with someone who wears the ring.

Without the soul storing and communication ability I think it wouldn't be a Legendary item but rare or very rare.

Where does it say that? In the DMG, all it says is that the wearer can use an action to cast Invisibility.

As far as the items go, being able to take an action and do 1d10 damage, assuming it's a ring of fire bolt, doesn't seem inherently extremely powerful. I'd probably say that damage cantrip rings would probably be rare. Non-damage cantrips, like mage hand, would vary on the utility of the spell. Think about it like this: In order to gain access to cantrips of a different class, you have to take a feat. How much would you value a feat-level item?

Hope this helps

[Lombra]

Where does it say that? In the DMG, all it says is that the wearer can use an action to cast Invisibility.

As far as the items go, being able to take an action and do 1d10 damage, assuming it's a ring of fire bolt, doesn't seem inherently extremely powerful. I'd probably say that damage cantrip rings would probably be rare. Non-damage cantrips, like mage hand, would vary on the utility of the spell. Think about it like this: In order to gain access to cantrips of a different class, you have to take a feat. How much would you value a feat-level item?

Hope this helps

He's talking about Tolkien's "one famous ring", not the invisibility ring in the DMG, it's the same reference that the OP used.

[Contrast]

Where does it say that? In the DMG, all it says is that the wearer can use an action to cast Invisibility.

As far as the items go, being able to take an action and do 1d10 damage, assuming it's a ring of fire bolt, doesn't seem inherently extremely powerful. I'd probably say that damage cantrip rings would probably be rare. Non-damage cantrips, like mage hand, would vary on the utility of the spell. Think about it like this: In order to gain access to cantrips of a different class, you have to take a feat. How much would you value a feat-level item?

Hope this helps


He's talking about Tolkien's "one famous ring", not the invisibility ring in the DMG, it's the same reference that the OP used.

I think he's actually mixing up the ring of invisibility with the ring of mind shielding which does rather undermine his argument as thats only an uncommon item.

[Unoriginal]

The Ring of Invisibility also stores the soul of the wearer in it if they die, making it a fallback plan to be resurrected if you get killed, even by a Disintegration spell. A soul stored in the ring can also communicate telepathically with someone who wears the ring.

Without the soul storing and communication ability I think it wouldn't be a Legendary item but rare or very rare.

If you're talking about Tolkien's One Ring: no, it doesn't do any of this.


EDIT: Perhaps I should mention that I'm hoping to introduce a Ring of Power into my game? I'd really appreciate some input here, folks.


What kind of Ring of Power?

[QUOTE=Basement Cat;22158354]
So my friends and I were talking about how Rings with Cantrips would rate. A limitless Ring of Mage Hand shouldn't rate too high, after all, while a limitless combat cantrip, i.e. Ring of Fire Bolt or Ring of Shocking Grasp (always 1st level power) would be deserve a higher rating.

[...]

Most of us figure such a ring would rate Very Rare or Legendary if the powers all have unlimited uses. But some argue that the Ring of Telekinesis vs Ring of Invisibility things suggest that the more limited a spell--i.e. Invisibility is more useful than Telekinesis even if Invisibility is a lower level spell--the lower the treasure value rating and thus such a ring should rate Rare or Very Rare at the most.

We know there are rules in the DMG for crafting stuff but this is definitely Homebrew territory so I'm seeking comments from others.

The simplest suggestion would be that any ring would start at Uncommon and move up a rating with each additional cantrip./QUOTE]

Well, items that can spells without limits are pretty powerful, so maybe take a wand (limited use item) and add two or three ranks of rarity?

[rollingForInit]

I think that the Ring of Invisibility is Legendary mostly because the duration is permanent. It's not comparable to the level 3 spell Invisibility; this is way more powerful. It also doesn't use your Concentration, so you could be invisible and use something like Fly at the same time. Or activate an ongoing spell (e.g. Call Lightning, Flaming Sphere) then go invisible and stay that way. It gives you advantage on an attack roll (after which you turn visible), so that gives you an advantage the first time you attack. And of course you can repeat all this with just an Action again. Out of combat it makes exploration close to enemies much, much easier.

A ring of permanent cantrips doesn't come close to this at all. Such a ring is a much weaker version of a Feat (Magic Initiate). Even having two cantrips on such a ring is still weaker than a feat. It's something any character can accomplish. And the cantrips behave as they usually though, no extra features.

I'd rate a ring with a single cantrip as Uncommon. In a high magic setting I'd rate it as Common. I wouldn't move it up past Uncommon until it had more than three cantrips, maybe. I'd never rate it as Legendary or Very Rare. Staff ot he Magi has 7 spells that can be cast at will. So even with a lot of cantrips, I'd wouldn't go beyond the Rare rating. I don't think I'd actually make an item that has lots of cantrips, though. It just seems a bit weird.

I'd always make such a ring require attunement, though. That's the main limiting factor, imo. Sure, you can have a Common magical item that gives you three cantrips, but that's 1/3 attunement items you can wear.

[90sMusic]

Invisibility at will is incredibly strong. You can use it to spy on your enemies, infiltrate places undetected, and escape fairly easily from most combats.

The telekinesis however, is not... It has a limitation that it can only be used on objects no one is touching. I mean, basically all it gives you is the ability to move things without touching them that you could have just as easily have done by walking up and grabbing them. Mage Hand can already do that for anything 5 pounds or less. That is why the ring is much weaker than the invis ring.

Cantrip rings should be very easy to make and very weak because cantrips are also very easy to do and very weak. The combat ones are the most useful and if you included invocations like firing eldritch blasts that add your charisma modifier, that would easily be the most valuable of the cantrip rings, hands down. But I submit this to you: Magical items typically have their own rules as far as their DCs and such. So I would argue that the magic of a given cantrip ring would dictate the spell level of the cantrip ring. For instance, you may only get a ring that can cast a 1d10 firebolt, regardless of what level you are whereas if you used the cantrip yourself it would increase in damage as your level goes up. Just something to consider. So a 1d10 firebolt ring would be much cheaper/easier to get than a 4d10 firebolt cantrip ring.

[CursedRhubarb]

I think he's actually mixing up the ring of invisibility with the ring of mind shielding which does rather undermine his argument as thats only an uncommon item.

Sadly I did. Whoops! Note to self: coffee stains on used books may cover important text.

[MrMcBobb]

Sadly I did. Whoops! Note to self: coffee stains on used books may cover important text.

Coffee Ring of Bad Visibility

Cursed Ring, common (requires caffeinement)

This magic rings bestows upon your books the ability to stick many pages into one clump. Also grants ink bonus movement, allowing it to run where it pleases.

[follacchioso]

.

A ring of permanent cantrips doesn't come close to this at all. Such a ring is a much weaker version of a Feat (Magic Initiate). Even having two cantrips on such a ring is still weaker than a feat. It's something any character can accomplish. And the cantrips behave as they usually though, no extra features.

I'd rate a ring with a single cantrip as Uncommon. In a high magic setting I'd rate it as Common. I wouldn't move it up past Uncommon until it had more than three cantrips, maybe. I'd never rate it as Legendary or Very Rare. Staff ot he Magi has 7 spells that can be cast at will. So even with a lot of cantrips, I'd wouldn't go beyond the Rare rating. I don't think I'd actually make an item that has lots of cantrips, though. It just seems a bit weird.



Let's wait a minute... an object giving a cantrip is quite a powerful magic item.

If it were Uncommon, by level 5 all the characters would have at least three or four cantrips each. That would render useless feats such as Magic Initiate, and some subclasses such as EK.

A feat is something that a characters must wait 4 levels to get. Some characters may not even get one feat at level 20. To get it you must renounce a +2 on your main ability score. Moreover, once you have chosen a feat, you cannot change it: instead, with a magical item, you would be free to change it as needed, pass it to other players, and so on. That's much more powerful than a feat.

I would say that Uncommon item may at best give the ability to use a cantrip once per day, using the crafter's statistics (e.g. level, attributes), plus maybe some other bonus (e.g. a +1 if it is a weapon).

[follacchioso]

Also: How would you rate a ring with Warlock Eldritch Invocations? As a DM I've thought about having magical rings or bracers that provide Eldritch Spear and/or Repelling Blast abilities but can only be used (naturally) if someone already has the Eldritch Blast cantrip.

An invocation is something that can only be obtained by making a pact with a powerful entity from a lower plane. You may have to sell your soul for it, or your family's. If these powers could be obtained with a common magic item, it would not be worth to do it.

[rollingForInit]

Let's wait a minute... an object giving a cantrip is quite a powerful magic item.

If it were Uncommon, by level 5 all the characters would have at least three or four cantrips each. That would render useless feats such as Magic Initiate, and some subclasses such as EK.

Eldritch Knight is more than just getting two cantrips. And no, everyone wouldn't have three or four cantrips each at level 5, mostly for two reasons.

1) The DM decides how many cantrip rings are given out as treasure.
2) Each ring, as I said, would require attunement. If you have three rings, you don't get to use any other magical items that require attunement, and the best items do. At higher levels, even one such ring would be a very expensive investment, because other items would typically be superior in all regards.


A feat is something that a characters must wait 4 levels to get. Some characters may not even get one feat at level 20. To get it you must renounce a +2 on your main ability score. Moreover, once you have chosen a feat, you cannot change it: instead, with a magical item, you would be free to change it as needed, pass it to other players, and so on. That's much more powerful than a feat.

I would say that Uncommon item may at best give the ability to use a cantrip once per day, using the crafter's statistics (e.g. level, attributes), plus maybe some other bonus (e.g. a +1 if it is a weapon).

You are vastly overestimating how useful cantrips are. Offensive cantrips are worse than regular attacks, and those who get weak attacks already get cantrips for free. There are some exceptional combos, like Rogue+SCAG cantrips (but there are much easier ways to get a cantrip like that, such as using your extra feats for it, being a Variant Human, being a High Elf, multiclassing etc).

Other cantrips are useful, but ... not extremely so. They aren't really game-changing, not the way that permanent invisibility is. Ring of Jumping is an Uncommon item that allows you to cast a 1st level spell at will. Ring of Water Walking basically gives you a 3rd level spells (for yourself only) permanently. Cloak of Protection gives you +1 AC and saving throws, which is vastly better mechanically than any cantrip. A Gem of Brightness can create a better version of the Light cantrip (plus do several other things). Goggles of Night automatically gives you the effects of a 2nd level spell. Helm of Comprehending Languages allows you to cast a 1st level spell at will. Hat of Disguise allows you to cast a 1st level spell at will. Helm of Telepathy allows you to cast a 2nd level spell at will.

Compared to other items that exist, casting cantrips at will should be Uncommon at most, maybe even Common (depending on the magic level of the world). Allowing the use of a cantrip once per day would be exceedingly underwhelming.

[DanInStreatham]

My own view is predicated on magic items being rare (general sense of the word) and that they should retain some mystique/excitement. Obviously other campaigns will take different approaches.

First, to me, magic rings should be proportionately more rare than other types of item. I believe this is the view taken in the dmg. Rings are usable by anyone, do not prevent you from using other tools or weapons, are easily concealed and typically fall into two camps: providing continuous personal effects, or providing big deal spells (eg summon elemental or wish). There are exceptions to this of course, but that's the brand niche of magic rings to me.

Let's not forget that ring of jumping is a rubbish level 1 spell to car at will (how many take the equivalent warlock invocation?) and water walking and feather fall are very much edge cases (and also pretty appropriate uses of the ring chassis, as if you're exploring underwater or going about your business on an airship, you probably want your hands free). I wouldn't read much into the rarity of these.

My concern is that rings of cantrip(s) cheapen magic rings and also miss the opportunity for more flavourful item choices. Eg. Wand of prestidigitation, totem of druidcraft, mirror of minor illusion, glove of mage hand, scissors of mending.

Not many cantrips provide personal effects that can be made continuous. Most of the effects that replace weapon attacks should probably take up your weapon hand, like a spellcasting focus does (eg wand, rod, scepter).

Onto rarity, a cantrip item could be uncommon but making a lot of them with unlimited casting may make your campaign feel a bit item heavy. I would probably say they are uncommon but wouldn't want them to become 'common' if you see what I mean. Obviously this applies to caster level 1. If higher they should be rare+.

Most Invocation items should be rare as they are difficult to get class abilities (involving pacts with dangerous entities). Even ones that purely buff warlocks (eg eldritch spear requiring eldritch blast by the user) should be rare at least, as their function is to increase the effective level of the warlock (and also I would assume there aren't many warlocks so why would these items be uncommon).