Total Party Kill Games Presents: Codex of Blood: Martial Study Expanded (playtest)

[Thealtruistorc]

Hello everyone, and welcome to yet another one of my crazy playtests. This time, we're covering the ever-popular maneuver system.

Presented below are a wide variety of new archetypes for classes which up until now had no innate initiation abilities. Now entering the fray are a wide variety of classes with a wide variety of options.

[doc removed, as we are in the process of something special]

The Archetypes included are as follows:

The Bloodmaven, an Antipaladin with a focus on taking the fight out of their enemies and winning the battle before a blow is even struck

The Fulminant Vessel, a Bloodrager who uses Animus to amplify the might of their rage.

The Sublime Warmage, a Magus which combines spells and maneuvers into a diverse array of fighting styles.

The Armsmaster Spirit, a Medium Legendary Spirit with initiation capabilities

The Hypnotic Duelist, a Mesmerist who exploits the senses of his foe to deliver brutal strikes.

The Silent Reaper, a Ninja who has forsaken his identity and become one with the unknowable darkness

The Furinkazan, a Samurai who fuses many styles to become a forceful and indefatiguable mounted threat.

The Steel Valkyrie, a Skald who amplifies the martial prowess of his allies.

The War Scion, a Spiritualist who harnesses the martial knowledge of her ancestors as they manifest as a martial phantom.

The Nexus Commander, a Summoner who uses the power of animus to lead his summons in battle.


We have a new discipline known as Lead Hyena, which focuses on breaking the foe's will to fight or turning it against their allies.


Finally, we have Martial Simple Monster Templates, for all of those who wish to integrate martial abilities into your monsters.


As always, input is appreciated.

[Ellrin]

Still reading, but I wanted to say I really like the Hypnotic Duelist. I've been working on (and off) a mesmerist back-up for a campaign I'm in, and may ask my DM if he'd be interested in trying this out if my current character meets an untimely end.

Though the capstone ACF seems really mechanically underwhelming on a PC, even if it's thematically cool. It reminds me of what Kurama did to the elder Toguro in Yuu Yuu Hakusho, if you don't mind the weeb reference.

[digiman619]

Let's give this a look-see and give my feedback:
* First things first, it's neat to see someone other than DSP tackle this subsystem; they've set a high bar, so let's see if we can match it, eh?
* Is the Detect Spellcasters destructive insight supposed to read "The bloodmaven gains the ability to use detect magic as a spell-like ability, and upon observing a creature with this ability automatically knows if it is capable of casting spells as well as what type of spells it is capable of casting (arcane, divine, psychic)"? (Note the bolded last word) Because otherwise the mention of psionic powers kinda came out of nowhere.
* You might want to say something about thrown weapons in the Spiritfoe insight, as otherwise it seems like it loses the property the second it leaves your hands.
* I have limited familitarity with 4/9th caster, but does Spell Familiarity mean that Bloodmaven can use antipaladin scrolls at 1st while a regular antipaladin needs to wait until 4th?
* The third paragraph in Fulmanant Vessel's maneuvers readied section starts off uncapitalized (fulmanant vessels...)
* While I know there are ways to rage indefinitely, they are generally combinations of things. Restore Rage is pretty much a one-step rage-cycle.
* So the Magus archetype is essentially stuck as 1st level intiator unless they spend all their magus arcana to essentially take the Martial Study feat chain. Why not just repace have the maneuvers replace your magus arcana? Also, why no "stadard action to recover 1 manuever" ability that every class/archetype/classs template with maneuvers has? Oh well, at least I can take this and the Sphere Magus (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/sphere-magus) at the same time.
* Normally I'd be concerned that the Medium's ability to change maneuvers every time they channel the spirit might be broken, but Aegii do that too, so it's probably fine.
* You might want to mention where the Namelss One and Masked Intent feats are from, if not reprint them youself. I had a bit of difficulty finding them.
* I get that some of the archetypes/class templates share recovery nechainics with the full classes, but this (the Samurai archetype) is the third Claim-based recvery and it's statring to wear thin. Though I was going to have a fit is you didn't have the Samurai have the Iajustsu-based discipline...
* You might want to pick a gender for the Steel Valkyrie archetype; it can't seem to choose. Also, Roaring Gambit seems a bit... off. What's the risk? How is that putting you in danger? Meh. I do like Combat Performer, though. And Assistive Gambit seems like a neat trick for Warlords to take, especially witht he errata having their Aid Another checks boost all allies within 30 feet.
* Does each class with Golden Lion get Lead Hyena in addition, or can they swap it out to get the new discipline? It's not clear.
* As for the discipline itself, it's a neat debuff theme. I like it, though it feels like it needs to be built around; it's not something you can just nab and forget. The Martial Tradition is a wierd one though; it forces people to be lone wolves, which complicated many APs.
*THANK YOU FOR THE TEMPLATES! I'm GM-ing a Legacy of Fire Game and re-statting every gnoll with a PoW class was getting annoying. This will save me a lot of trouble.

[EisenKreutzer]

* Is the Detect Spellcasters destructive insight supposed to read "The bloodmaven gains the ability to use detect magic as a spell-like ability, and upon observing a creature with this ability automatically knows if it is capable of casting spells as well as what type of spells it is capable of casting (arcane, divine, psychic)"? (Note the bolded last word) Because otherwise the mention of psionic powers kinda came out of nowhere.


I would assume they mean psychic spells, not psionic powers.

[Florian]

The Silent Reaper has incredibly low costs for taking the archetype.

[Thealtruistorc]

Adjusted in light of some of your comments. The grammar errors have been fixed and some rules have been clarified.

The Silent Reaper gives up the same amount as the Hidden Blade rogue, which I felt was appropriate given the similarities between the two classes.

The Sublime Warmage was tricky, hence why I opted for the strange way of gaining maneuvers. The intent was to make it compatible with as many magus archetypes as possible, and I think I pulled that off.

As for the Fulminant Vessel and Bloodmaven's ability to use spell completion items, they are a replica of the knight disciple paladin's ability with a similar effect. As memory serves, I believe that the bloodrager and antipaladin can use scrolls from level 1 anyway.

Roaring Gamibt is intended to be a particularly crazy piece of performance, and would fail in any case where the skill check it is attempting would fail (for example, failing to intimidate a creature if replicating intimidate, failing the sense motive check as part of ruby zenith strike, or failing the diplomacy check as part of warning roar).

Also, the forsaken does are not necessarily lone wolves, they just don't fight en masse for a cause. It is very possible for them to be social and even amiable characters, just ones who see the dangers of groupthink.

[Ellrin]

The one thing that concerns me about Sublime Warmage is that it might not be giving up enough for what it gets. If all arcana are sacrificed, it will surpass the number of known and readied maneuvers of most other initiator archetypes by early-mid levels, as well as in known stances (though that's a diminishing returns proposition). This is balanced slightly by the fact that their highest maneuver level known progression is slower, but for a class that's already pretty good at dealing high DPR, that may not be enough. Add to that the fact that the archetype is so flexible--you can easily just sacrifice two or three arcana early on and put some feats into Advanced Study to cherry pick higher level maneuvers while still being able to grab most of the best magus arcana--and the fact that you can essentially reuse your best strikes or counters once per round with that swift action recovery, and I think you've got pretty easy potential for a build that gains some significant power from initiating without really giving up a significant portion of a magus's normal potential.

At least it doesn't stack too well with Hexcrafter, even if your DM allows them to work together, since both archetypes are pretty arcana hungry. You probably could make a build between the two that would make a similarly optimized vanilla magus look pretty puny, though.

[digiman619]

The one thing that concerns me about Sublime Warmage is that it might not be giving up enough for what it gets. If all arcana are sacrificed, it will surpass the number of known and readied maneuvers of most other initiator archetypes by early-mid levels, as well as in known stances (though that's a diminishing returns proposition). This is balanced slightly by the fact that their highest maneuver level known progression is slower, but for a class that's already pretty good at dealing high DPR, that may not be enough. Add to that the fact that the archetype is so flexible--you can easily just sacrifice two or three arcana early on and put some feats into Advanced Study to cherry pick higher level maneuvers while still being able to grab most of the best magus arcana--and the fact that you can essentially reuse your best strikes or counters once per round with that swift action recovery, and I think you've got pretty easy potential for a build that gains some significant power from initiating without really giving up a significant portion of a magus's normal potential.

At least it doesn't stack too well with Hexcrafter, even if your DM allows them to work together, since both archetypes are pretty arcana hungry. You probably could make a build between the two that would make a similarly optimized vanilla magus look pretty puny, though.

In defense of the archetype, it does specify minimum levels on when you can take the arcana, though I suppose that you can take the Extra Arcana feat to get more acrcana, which if this just traded away the arcana of the Martial Study feats you couldn't do.

[Ellrin]

In defense of the archetype, it does specify minimum levels on when you can take the arcana, though I suppose that you can take the Extra Arcana feat to get more acrcana, which if this just traded away the arcana of the Martial Study feats you couldn't do.

Yeah, I'm taking the minimum levels into account with that assessment. Even without taking a single feat to get more maneuvers/stances/readied maneuvers, assuming you use all your arcana through class levels on martial development, by level 12 you have two more maneuvers known, two more maneuvers readied, and one more stance known than the standard initiator progression. Combined with a swift action recovery method, that gives the archetype quite a bit more flexibility, action economy, and staying power compared to most initiating archetypes, and that's on top of a class that already has really good DPR potential--so being a maneuver level down (until level 15) compared to other 2/3 initiators isn't a massive blow.

Don't get me wrong, I actually think it's a novel way of handling an initiator archetype and it adds a lot of great flexibility these sorts of archetypes usually don't offer, I just think with the right builds it's giving up relatively little and gaining quite a bit.

[dude123nice]

* First things first, it's neat to see someone other than DSP tackle this subsystem; they've set a high bar, so let's see if we can match it, eh?

You do realize that all these are just supplements to DSP's subystem, right?

[digiman619]

You do realize that all these are just supplements to DSP's subystem, right?
Of course, but the only time I've seen a publisher other than DSP have any martial intiaion stuff was the War Shifter (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/warshifter), which was one arcteype for a Spheres of Power class. And if I'm being blunt, it's a rather anemic arcehtype at that; literally "trade away these 4 things for martial intiation", not anything that gives the archetype a new identity, like, say, a myrmidon gaining grit and deeds, or a monks of the silver fist getting its bodyguarding theme.

[khadgar567]

did eidolon get any goodiesn or summoner keeps it

[dude123nice]

Of course, but the only time I've seen a publisher other than DSP have any martial intiaion stuff was the War Shifter (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/warshifter), which was one arcteype for a Spheres of Power class. And if I'm being blunt, it's a rather anemic arcehtype at that; literally "trade away these 4 things for martial intiation", not anything that gives the archetype a new identity, like, say, a myrmidon gaining grit and deeds, or a monks of the silver fist getting its bodyguarding theme.

I just don't see why it matters that it's another publisher as long as they are just adding to DSP's system. You will not see anything to different from what's been published already since they still have to fit PoW's mechanics. I think it would be more interesting if someone else tried a completely new approach to maneuvers or buffing martials, like Drop Dead Studio's Spheres of Might.

[digiman619]

I just don't see why it matters that it's another publisher as long as they are just adding to DSP's system. You will not see anything to different from what's been published already since they still have to fit PoW's mechanics. I think it would be more interesting if someone else tried a completely new approach to maneuvers or buffing martials, like Drop Dead Studio's Spheres of Might.

Let me try again. I haven't seen anyone but Dreamscarred Press do anything with the "martial initation" subsystem first introduced in Tome of Battle, other than the aforementioned archetype, I specifically called out martial initation as "this subsystem" in my first post. I also am looking forward to Spheres of Might; while circumstances prevented me from helping kickstart it, I do intend to buy it the day it releases. That, however, is a seperate issue. I wasn't talking about any other system and my comments were solely on what was available in the playtest document.

The reason that I was interested in seeing someone other than DSP make content for this system. DSP knows what it does and doesn't want in its disciplines (weirdly, it repeatedly dismissed the idea of a grapple-based discipline, but then made its own psuedo-grapple with locking in Fool's Errand), so seeing someone else take with a different idea on what to include is kind of refreshing. That's all I was saying.

[dude123nice]

Let me try again. I haven't seen anyone but Dreamscarred Press do anything with the "martial initation" subsystem first introduced in Tome of Battle, other than the aforementioned archetype, I specifically called out martial initation as "this subsystem" in my first post. I also am looking forward to Spheres of Might; while circumstances prevented me from helping kickstart it, I do intend to buy it the day it releases. That, however, is a seperate issue. I wasn't talking about any other system and my comments were solely on what was available in the playtest document.

The reason that I was interested in seeing someone other than DSP make content for this system. DSP knows what it does and doesn't want in its disciplines (weirdly, it repeatedly dismissed the idea of a grapple-based discipline, but then made its own psuedo-grapple with locking in Fool's Errand), so seeing someone else take with a different idea on what to include is kind of refreshing. That's all I was saying.

And what I am saying is that it's their subsystem, their choice on how to handle it, even if sometimes they DO make frustrating design choices. What I think is that maybe others should make their OWN versions of martial subsystem instead of making what is essentially 4th party homebrew for a third party homebrew system.

[Ellrin]

And what I am saying is that it's their subsystem, their choice on how to handle it, even if sometimes they DO make frustrating design choices. What I think is that maybe others should make their OWN versions of martial subsystem instead of making what is essentially 4th party homebrew for a third party homebrew system.

Look, having more varied forms of variety is great, but maybe you could make another thread about it? I mean, this thread is already sort of about something that you apparently aren't very interested in.

[angelpalm]

I was hoping the ninja archetype was poison focused and made poison viable in the same way some of Dsp's other classes made fear based stuff viable. That's the way I would have went with it especially since the hidden blade doesn't even get native access to steel serpent.

I was trying to work on something myself but kinda got off track with figuring out how to do it with it being balanced.

[digiman619]

And what I am saying is that it's their subsystem, their choice on how to handle it, even if sometimes they DO make frustrating design choices. What I think is that maybe others should make their OWN versions of martial subsystem instead of making what is essentially 4th party homebrew for a third party homebrew system.

Okay, we are perilously close to derailing the thread, so this will be the last I'll talk of it. Yes. I'd love it if more publishers created subsystems that Let Martials Have Nice Things, like the upcoming Spheres of Might, but that's not what we have here. This book is explicitly made to use DSP PoW system. Complaining that this book isn't a brand-new martial-focused subsystem is nonsensical. Let me make an analogy: If you go to McDonald's and order a Big Mac, you'd be allowed to complain if they used too much sauce, or if the lettuce wasn't fresh enough. You don't have the right to complain that it's not a hot dog, though.

[khadgar567]

well one thing would be nice to merge spheres of might and path of war so rajah can use might talents instead of martial manouvers or conscript can work as regular manouver focused fighter

[digiman619]

well one thing would be nice to merge spheres of might and path of war so rajah can use might talents instead of martial manouvers or conscript can work as regular manouver focused fighter

Let's let Spheres of Might actually come out before we start mixing it with Path of War, okay?

[khadgar567]

Let's let Spheres of Might actually come out before we start mixing it with Path of War, okay?
okay but we still need the proverbial potara earnings for both systems to give martial the edge they needed

[digiman619]

okay but we still need the proverbial potara earnings for both systems to give martial the edge they needed

I thought we were going to get the books to dance in order to fuse them...

[khadgar567]

I thought we were going to get the books to dance in order to fuse them...

well thats work to but i thing its more for spheres of power and path of war fusion

[Thealtruistorc]

I'm back with more stuff.

First off, there are plenty of new feats for you all to enjoy, including style feats for the new disciplines.

Introducing a new martial discipline based on grappling, Brutal Crocodile.

Finally, we have a new archetype for TPK's own Gladiator class, the Evocatus.

[digiman619]

Okay, since you've added more stuff, let me give you my crique on what's new:
* I don't know what the Gladiator base class deos (I don't have whatever book it comes from and it's not on the PFSRD), so I don't know what he's giving up, but I like the refresh mechanic. Very flavorful, though seeing as you can't choose to make a check (you have to do something that pumps up the crowd, which may or may not be possible in a given circumstance), it might run into problems.
* Assuming that Performance Weapon Mastery grants the feat of the same name, you realize that replacing it severely limits what weapons you can wield, and makes unarmed fighting untenable until/unless you waste a feat to re-get the feat, right?. All in all, that really doesn't seem like a good trade off, especially since none of his other features (as far as I can tell) care about counting as a fighter, but a lot of them care about performance combat.
* Brutal Crocodile is an odd one; the grappling focus makes it evocative of Fool's Errand's lock mechanic (though I'm pretty sure the original plans for ths pre-dates Fool's Errand), but the savagery is evocative of Primal Fury. It's as though Fool's Errand was written to replace Primal Fury rather than Broken Blade. Also, a save-or-die as a strike is a tad disconcerting, but seeing as you need to have them grappled to use it is probably okay. I think. Also, slight nitpick, you don't need to specify taht Brawlers can take this discipline, as they already can take any two disciplines (along with Fool's Errand) to know... unless you are suggesting that they get it in addition to their other known disciplines, in which case that wasn't clear. Also, after looking at all the feats for it and the disicpline itself, I fear that it's going to do way to much damage compared to the other disiplines. Maybe I'm overreacting, as grappling them takes time, too, but it feels a bit much.
* Bestial Takedown is an odd one; these two disciplines do the same concept in very different ways, and lock isn't limited to adjancency like grapple is, so I'd be more likely to take this feat if I was focused on Brutal Crocodile and sprikling in Fool's Errand than vice versa.
* Bred for battle is an interesting idea, but I don't think that it's powerful enough to warrant 1st level only status and that such an effect being grranted later in life wouldn't seem out of place.
* You might want to alphabatize the feats, as the nmaes are all over the place.
* How will Lead Hyena Style interact with multi-hit strikes, like Endless Dance of Death (Fool's Errand 8)?
* Finally, you forgot to include a martial tradition for Brutal Crocodile.

[khadgar567]

And all recent fanon disciples of recent brew are canonized so and must legitimize my home brew desires from anyone

[Thealtruistorc]

Okay, since you've added more stuff, let me give you my crique on what's new:
* I don't know what the Gladiator base class deos (I don't have whatever book it comes from and it's not on the PFSRD), so I don't know what he's giving up, but I like the refresh mechanic. Very flavorful, though seeing as you can't choose to make a check (you have to do something that pumps up the crowd, which may or may not be possible in a given circumstance), it might run into problems.
* Assuming that Performance Weapon Mastery grants the feat of the same name, you realize that replacing it severely limits what weapons you can wield, and makes unarmed fighting untenable until/unless you waste a feat to re-get the feat, right?. All in all, that really doesn't seem like a good trade off, especially since none of his other features (as far as I can tell) care about counting as a fighter, but a lot of them care about performance combat.
* Brutal Crocodile is an odd one; the grappling focus makes it evocative of Fool's Errand's lock mechanic (though I'm pretty sure the original plans for ths pre-dates Fool's Errand), but the savagery is evocative of Primal Fury. It's as though Fool's Errand was written to replace Primal Fury rather than Broken Blade. Also, a save-or-die as a strike is a tad disconcerting, but seeing as you need to have them grappled to use it is probably okay. I think. Also, slight nitpick, you don't need to specify taht Brawlers can take this discipline, as they already can take any two disciplines (along with Fool's Errand) to know... unless you are suggesting that they get it in addition to their other known disciplines, in which case that wasn't clear. Also, after looking at all the feats for it and the disicpline itself, I fear that it's going to do way to much damage compared to the other disiplines. Maybe I'm overreacting, as grappling them takes time, too, but it feels a bit much.
* Bestial Takedown is an odd one; these two disciplines do the same concept in very different ways, and lock isn't limited to adjancency like grapple is, so I'd be more likely to take this feat if I was focused on Brutal Crocodile and sprikling in Fool's Errand than vice versa.
* Bred for battle is an interesting idea, but I don't think that it's powerful enough to warrant 1st level only status and that such an effect being grranted later in life wouldn't seem out of place.
* You might want to alphabatize the feats, as the nmaes are all over the place.
* How will Lead Hyena Style interact with multi-hit strikes, like Endless Dance of Death (Fool's Errand 8)?
* Finally, you forgot to include a martial tradition for Brutal Crocodile.

-The Gladiator class is taken from the Ultimate Gladiator expansion. The performance weapon mastery class feature just grants a +2 to performance checks with any weapon the gladiator is proficient with. It is completely possible to use combat performance with non-performance weapons. There are enough prompts for performance combat that I don't think most characters will have difficulty finding an opportunity to pump up the crowd (any combat maneuver, hitting with a charge attack, hitting with two or more attacks in a round, dealing energy damage, rolling the highest possible number on a damage die, and doing anything which would knock a creature prone)
-The damage on Brutal Crocodile was reverse-engineered from some other abilities which dealt damage based on grappling (most of them from 3.5). Given how unreliable a lot of the damage for this style of fighting is (you need to take a round to grab the creature), I figured rewarding bursts would make sense.
-Style feats are traditionally ordered separately from other feats
-Lead Hyena Style's bonus increases with multi-hit strikes, but I added a limit
-Working on a martial tradition for Brutal Crocodile

I'm also considering doing archetypes of other third-party classes for this project, most notably the time thief and draconic exemplar. If you have any other suggestions, feel free to give them to me.

[Ellrin]

I just noticed you have two Weapon and Armor Proficiency entries for the Hypnotic Duelist that differ from each other. The first is just before the Maneuvers entry, and the second is just after the Stances entry.


A hypnotic duelist is proficient with simple and martial weapons and with light armor, but not with shields

A hypnotic duelist gains proficiency with simple and martial weapons and with light armor and shields.

In addition to whether they get shields or not, the language of the first suggests to me that it entirely replaces the mesmerist's normal weapon/armor proficiencies (ie, they don't get access to the hand crossbow and whip), while the language of the second sort of suggests that these proficiencies are added to the mesmerist's existing proficiencies.

[Thealtruistorc]

Back with more stuff. I would like to present the new Mangled Gear discipline, alongside several new feats and a new martial tradition, the Warsmith Brotherhood.

[khadgar567]

Back with more stuff. I would like to present the new Mangled Gear discipline, alongside several new feats and a new martial tradition, the Warsmith Brotherhood.
Disciplines are good buddy but can you give more support to eidolon and summoner on next update please

[digiman619]

New stuff, New responses:
* You still have some placeholder DESCRIPTION lines in the maneuver desciptions, and the summary is still after the name and maneuver type.
* Mangled Gear itself feels very much like a dipping discipline; a lot of this stuff feels like it's better used by a non-initator grabbing them from the Martial Study chain. I mean, the lack of a damage-boosting maneuvers, particularly in the first level (and Sabotage does not count; when was the last time you had a Level 1 or 2 character attempt to sunder something?) and the high number of boosts makes this feel like it'd be hard to make your main discipline.
* How will Breaker's Dodge effect an unarmed strike or natural attack?
* How does Shutdown Shot interact with spell-like abilities? What happens if multiple intitators hit the same target with the maneuver in sequence?
* Conductive Retaltiation has an interesting "counter-the-counter" effect if an adept fires a ray while readying it against another adept that readies it. Pity that you can't change the target, or we could use a slew of intitiators as mirrors and shoot around corners and/or lengthen a ray far past what it could normally hit.
* So what's stopping someone from using Engery Retention to make a wand have effectively infinite charges by using the boost out of combat?
* Mangled Gear Stance seem really party-unfriendly. Unless you tailor your party to not cast/manifest/use techncological items, you're setting yourself up to invalidate what other party members do. Sure, they might pass the Concentration check, but so might your enemies. This is more for NPCs than PCs in my opinion
* Short Out will be less useful in my games, as we tend to use Spheres of Power, and unless they use a spell point, they can use it again for free next turn, but you can't design with every 3PP product in mind, so whatever.
* Emergency Application seems WAY underpowered for a 4th level maneuver. I get that you don't want, say, alchemists to get it for free, but it's way, way underpowered. to unlock at 7th level.
* Second Surge is wonderful especially if you are teamed with a summon-happy teammate.
* Glad that Bred for Battle is no loner 1st level only
* Shouldn't Essence Breaker have "ability to intiate strikes" or something of the sort as a prerequisite? Because otherwise an Alchemist can take it and have it do nothing.
* The Warsmiths are interesting enough, but you still haven't made a Tradition for Lead Hyena. Just saying.

[Thealtruistorc]

Back with more stuff. I'm thinking I'm almost done here.

Introducing another archetype, this time for the Time Thief, the Climax Blade.

A new martial tradition, the Primeval Lodge.

Lastly, I've modified a few things and cleaned up some others.

[Thealtruistorc]

Back with one more archetype: the Huay for the Hunter. Expect it to play out very differently from the Ambush Predator ranger.