Any advise on Dark Heresy?

[Swaoeaeieu]

So i just got invited/about to start a new campaign. After discussing it with the players and dm, the new campaign is described as Guardians of the Galaxy meets 40k. We were told we would get a small-ish ship that we as a 5 man party would crew and take into space and grand adventures. I naturally jumped on the excuse to be a space captain and aim to misbehave a little (que firefly theme). However, i am running into some issues:
- I know next to nothing about 40k lore except for some summaries i read the last few days (super gritty and grimdark)
- I dont know the system (Dark Heresy 2nd edition) and dont know what is good or advisable.
- How does one act like a capable captain of a spaceship in a universe hell bent on making life miserable?

We will have a party consisting of: The captain (thinking sniping is good?), a sister of battle in training focussed on melee, another melee duelist or somesuch, a tech priest, and a medic.

I would apreciate any and all advise on how to deal with this. I am super excited about the campaign and wish to nog doom my crew right away with my incompetence.

Any advise? thanks in advance

[Chijinda]

What you described honestly sounds like it would suit Rogue Trader better than Dark Heresy, but if that floats your GM's boat, so be it. Some general tips:

-Unless your GM is making house-rules regarding it, do not bother with the Leadership Aptitude or the Tech Aptitude*, unless you are aiming for a very specific sort of build. They do not benefit any of your characteristics and they are only useful towards a grand total of three Skills (of which you can still discount by taking the opposite Aptitude). Basically, if at any point in your character generation, you are offered [blank] or Leadership/Tech, take the [blank]. It will likely pay off better in the long run.

-40k is VERY grimdark, and you will typically be playing as someone living in the Imperium of Man, save in EXTREMELY unusual scenarios thought up by the GM (or if playing Black Crusade). The Imperium of Man is essentially an unholy amalgation of Nazi Germany, the Roman Empire and the Puritan Catholic Church. Racism and zealotry are not merely not-frowned upon but actually encouraged. Human supremacy is the hat of the Imperium of Man. Mankind is the greatest, and all other species in the universe exist either to serve the Imperium or deserve death. There is no in-between, or mediation (typically). The Imperium is sworn to the God Emperor of Mankind, essentially their version of Jesus and God combined into one. The Imperium is callous and uncaring of the fate of its citizens, and the Imperial Military will generally gladly through millions of its own troops into the grinder to hold some useless plot of land on some barren, useless planet, just because it belonged to the Imperium (and remember: All worlds belong to the Imperium. Even if someone else was there first). It's a dim dystopian world, that the average citizen accepts simply because it's the only life they, their grandfather, their grandfather's grandfather, and so on, have ever known. Extreme deviation from these norms is punishable by death.


-If you decide to run a Psyker, keep in mind that Psykers are typically detested mutants, and can be thought of as walking nuclear reactors that can go critical at any moment. They have their uses, but the average Imperium citizen has been taught to hate and fear the Psyker, due to the fact that they are basically, walking nuclear reactors that can go critical at any moment. They are, nonetheless a necessity in the Imperium for space travel, as an Astropath is the only "reliable" and "safe" (ie. As reliable and safe as it gets in 40k) method of navigating the Warp. Basically, Psykers are in a weird spot where they are absolutely vital for the survival of the Imperium of Man, but equally dangerous to everyone around them if they lose control of their powers (which are essentially channeling the powers of Hell, so that tends to happen quite frequently, especially if they are untrained). As a result, they are at best a hated necessity that needs to be kept under tight lock and key, with a gun barrel to their heads in case something starts going wrong, and at worst, pariahs that are to be executed on sight, just for being a Psyker.


-Technology has stagnated and is filled with superstition. The Adeptus Mechanicus basically hold a monopoly on all technology and jealously guard their secrets. The average Imperial Citizen believes that machines operate because of spirits that live within the machines, and therefore the operation or repairs of machines are often quasi-religious rituals so-as not to anger the spirits that live in the machine, and encourage them to work. Because even these rituals are typically only known by the Adeptus Mechanicus, it means that most machinery is mysterious and possibly even reverent. It also means that the average Imperial citizen is not going to be thinking ideas like: "Well let's just screw around with this machine until it works!" if faced with a technology based problem. (I mostly mention this because in one of my own campaigns a player did exactly this, and was thoroughly confused and frustrated as to why the Mechanicus nearby started screaming for his head on a spike for desecrating the sacred home of the Machine Spirit).


-As far as Dark Heresy is concerned, you typically play a member of the Imperial Inquisition. An organization founded for rooting out Heresy and exterminating it wherever they find it. As you mind glean from the above information, Heresy can vastly waver from as minor a thing as an Imperial citizen questioning the Imperial Faith, to a full on Chaos or Xenos infiltration of a planet. All Heresy is typically punishable by death (so yes. You can be put to death in the Imperium for as much as going: "Are we SURE the God Emperor is really doing anything for us?")


-Note that none of the above means you cannot create a character that disagrees with the above values, but it is important to note that as an Imperium citizen (or former Imperium citizen as it may be), this is the culture you have been reared in. A hateful, fearful, dogmatic society where what is different is feared and hated, and change is actively rejected. One of my frequent players rarely focuses on the dogmatic nature of the Imperium, and generally ignores the whole "God Emperor religious" aspect of the setting, except where it becomes relevant. The lore of 40k is filled with people who disagree with many of the above notions, and exploit loopholes within them. Even within the Inquisition itself there are many subfactions who all disagree on the best way to battle Heresy, and there have been full Civil wars that have broken out over these disagreements.

[Wraith]

- I know next to nothing about 40k lore except for some summaries i read the last few days (super gritty and grimdark)

If you're up for a little bit of reading, there is a 40k wiki called Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page) available to answer any questions that you might have. I would recommend that you start out with the article "The Imperium of Man", as that is the human civilisation to which you will belong, and understanding how messed up and bureaucratic it is will give you a strong sense of flavour for the setting. Also maybe take a look at "Rogue Trader" which - for all intents and purposes - is what your character is.

There's also a 40k Fluff Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?524802-Warhammer-40K-Fluff-Discussion-XIII-You-Must-Smash-Additional-Pylons!) on this very forum. There's significant crossover between Dark Heresy and the 40k tabletop game, so you're welcome to come and ask us for ideas if there's anything you want to know. :smallsmile:


- I dont know the system (Dark Heresy 2nd edition) and dont know what is good or advisable.

It's a d100 Percentile system, so nothing out of the ordinary there; if you can count to 10, you can play this game. :smalltongue:
As for what is advisable? The classes pretty much speak for themselves by their title, so ask your GM just how perilous the game is likely to be and choose appropriately between social and combat. There aren't many weapons or pieces of equipment that are obviously, outstandingly overpowered, so pick something you like the sound of and it'll probably work out just fine.



- How does one act like a capable captain of a spaceship in a universe hell bent on making life miserable?

Remember that the galaxy is ruthless - even your own side (a highly divisive description, at best) will not hesitate to send police, naval marines and all-powerful Inquisitors after you if they think that you have stepped to far away from the normal state of affairs, and the 'bad guys' are even worse.

That's not to say that you CAN'T get away with anything. The Imperium of Man is a brutal regime run by an insane, paranoid and xenophobic religious oligarchy, but all the usual human vices - bribery, smuggling, blackmail, drugs and other illicit things - are just a prevalent as any other setting. You can indulge in pretty much whatever you want.... With the caveat that getting caught is far more perilous for it.

At the same time, YOU are captain of your own ship, and that affords you whatever respect that you can hold onto for yourself. Be ruthless to those below you and remind them of the pecking order, be wary of those around you that want what you have, and be fearful of those above you to whom you are but a tool. Bravado is all well and good, until you cross paths with someone who owns a planet or two!

[Swaoeaeieu]

Thank you for the advise and information guys!

I made a Desperado from a frontier world for my captain character. With a history of being in the navy. I made sure to have plenty of balistics for my sniper rifle and hand cannon. Wich the dm tells me are pretty solid options. My other focus is fellowship to get a little information/trade network going, as well as maybe being better at ordering people around?

We also have a small ship wich one person can fly, so i put ranks in operate voidship. Aparantly i have been granted the rights to this ship in exchange for some off the books requests by a certain friend of a friend of a friend of an inquisitor, so while we do work for the inquisition some of the time like Dark Heresy, we have the freedom of choise, but not the grand scale of Rogue Trader.

i was wondering, with fellowship keying to the command skill. Is there some sort of buff you can bestow upon partymembers by being a good leader. like a bard or somesuch in DND?

and since we have a small ship, any advise on dealing with bigger ships, besides run away, or is this combination of different systems so unusual we have quite a unique situation?

[KillingTime]

Sounds like a lot of fun!
DH has been my favourite system since DH1 came out ten(ish) years ago, and my group and I have been really enjoying playing the new rules too. It's good system, with plenty of flexibility for character generation.

There aren't really party-wide buffs in DH such as you describe. Fellowship is used as a social interaction stat, with skills such as Command, Charm, Decieve and Inquiry based on it. You will use these to interact with NPCs far more than with your own party. You can use the Command skill to Inspire a follower (for a +10 bonus to a single test), but you'd be sacrificing an action to do it.
That said, it's really important to have at least one member of the party with good Fel who can specialise in these skills if you're likely to be spending any time not in combat.

One thing to remember is that combat in DH is very deadly. You'll be looking for opportunities to avoid combat or to stack the odds heavily before committing.
You can quite easily be one-shotted, and even the beefiest characters will get worn down pretty quickly if isolated.

The rules in Rogue Trader are for spaceship combat, and if you're in a small ship you'll be wanting to run away from pretty much everything.

[Anonymouswizard]

For is there a buff from the command skill, no (unless you can find a talent that says you can give one). But if you ever have allies it's useful for keeping morale.

For what to do as you have a small ship, how small? Few hundred crew members? Eighty? Most ships can be flown up one person, but you'll need people to load the weapons and missile bays, repair the ship, a navigator to fly you through the void, a small army of cooks to feed the crew, a smaller army of better cooks to feed the important parts of the crew, a bunch of brutes to keep the crew under control (feed by the better cooks), ideally a few astropaths to keep in contact with people, and so on. So if you meet a ship that's crewed properly, run or surrender.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I dont know how small exactly yet. Just that us players thought the smallest ship in rogue trader felt too big for the feel of the campaign we wanted to go for. We do not yet know the stats for the ship.

How does keeping up morale work in this game?

[emeraldstreak]

A few words on the system

- fairly deadly

- ranged > melee

- effects that limit agency are common

[Swaoeaeieu]

A few words on the system

- fairly deadly

- ranged > melee

- effects that limit agency are common

could you explain those statements please?

[The Glyphstone]

could you explain those statements please?

1) Deadly = everyone's HP is very low compared to average damage. Even regular mooks/weak guns can potentially cripple or kill a character in one or two hits. Your first action in any fight should be diving behind the nearest piece of cover to protect yourself.

2) Ranged> Melee = ranged combat is better than melee unless your entire group is melee-oriented, and it's generally better in general because it means you can start fighting immediately instead of having to close the distance under fire.

3) Limited Agency = there are lots of debuffs/effects that stun you, blind you, make you hallucinate, render you catatonic in terror, mind control you, etc. So be prepared to have turns where you aren't doing anything.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Thanks. i will play carefully!

[Chijinda]

I dont know how small exactly yet. Just that us players thought the smallest ship in rogue trader felt too big for the feel of the campaign we wanted to go for. We do not yet know the stats for the ship.

How does keeping up morale work in this game?

However the GM wants it to. If you keep leading your crew or allies into suicide missions, or other "I didn't sign up for this!" type missions, then Fellowship skills and especially Command, can be useful for keeping them doing the job you want them to be doing.

As an aside there WERE some Talents in DH1 that used Fellowship for party based buffs (albeit these were MOSTLY relegated to gaining bonuses against Fear and Pinning, although one allowed you to share your "Hatred" talent with other members of the party). They don't look like they'd be too hard to work into the DH2 system either, so you could try asking your GM if he'd let you take them as Advances.

[Wraith]

and since we have a small ship, any advise on dealing with bigger ships, besides run away, or is this combination of different systems so unusual we have quite a unique situation?

There's lots of different types of craft in Dark Heresy, but by and large ship-to-ship combat in the Imperium works in a manner very similar to Olde Time naval battles; they first engage at extreme long range, sniping with lasers over thousands of kilometers as they make their approach. Then, when they are almost touching each other they go for broadsides and boarding actions with manned torpedoes.

Similarly, ships range in size from single-person fighter craft up to enormous flying cathedrals which can be tens of kilometers in length, so you'll most likely be seriously outclassed by a ship of higher tonnage by orders of magnitude. Running away and/or hiding is almost certainly going to be your best bet; Imperial ships are ponderous things used to blunt-forcing their way through obstacles, so getting lost in a dense asteroid field or something where they can't easily manoeuvrer will certainly slow them down.
Having said that, Imperial technology is archaic; some battleships have been in use for thousands of years, and one of the defining features of 40k technology is that, by and large, nobody quite knows how it works anymore. Oh, they know that if they press the buttons in the right order and intone the correct words from the Rite of Mechanical Awakenings as taught to them by the enlightened Cultists of the Adeptus Mechnicus.... But so much of it is done by rote and ritual, rather than specific understanding.
Use that to your advantage; target a complicated system and damage it early on, because it will take a LOT of time for the Tech Priests to get their rituals in order and their incense properly blessed before they can begin repairs, and in a lot of cases it is literally a heresy punishable by death to try and jury rig something against the sacred directions of their God....

....Alternatively, look into hiring a Heretic Priest who has spent more time actually practising to be an electrician, than he has on his knees singing prayers to the Machine God. They do exist, though they are hunted and hated by their dogmatic brethren, but if you can shelter one from their sight then he's probably going to be more efficient at his job, and ever-so grateful.... :smallbiggrin:

[Anonymouswizard]

....Alternatively, look into hiring a Heretic Priest who has spent more time actually practising to be an electrician, than he has on his knees singing prayers to the Machine God. They do exist, though they are hunted and hated by their dogmatic brethren, but if you can shelter one from their sight then he's probably going to be more efficient at his job, and ever-so grateful.... :smallbiggrin:

HERESY! *BLAM*

Although, if you're working for a radical inquisitor, having your Tech Priest be slightly radical can be useful. Someone who'll do it right when they have time, but in the heat of battle will use the shortened version of the prayers (which apparently consist of swearing while banging whatever device is misbehaving with a wrench). Or a fully radical one who only uses the rituals when others are watching.

Or even a full blown Heretek. Most of my 40k techies are, tech priests who left the Adeptus Mechanicus when they became disillusioned with the teachings and went into the forbidden arts of research and innovation. Although I haven't been able to do so, I always wanted to surprise a tech priest with a plasma cannon built into my replacement arm (the other houses a combi-flamer, for versatility). Because nothing says paranoid like carrying around two canisters of He-3 (what, you mean your hereteks don't have a fusion generator* built into their arse?).

* does the Imperium have those?

[Alberic Strein]

I think everyone has done a great job at giving you advice, but do let me chime in.

First of all, you don't have to be good in combat. A few grenades, an autogun and laying down suppressive fire from cover while your melee guys get in range is good help to your team. And the best part? You don't even need to be a good shot for that. Which frees some room for you to grab some more face and driving skills if you want them.

Ranged is usually considered stronger because you can easily get multi-hits and the single shot weapons can do some real damage, while melee needs a bigger investment. Oh, and to get in range of your chainsword you need to get a lot closer to hit someone with your sword compared to your autogun, and walking into lines of fire is usually a bad idea.

Your ship is probably going to be escort-class.

You have no reason to wear anything weaker than Imperial Guard flak armor.

Get into cover.

Don't piss off any space marine.

[Swaoeaeieu]

thanks to all y'all. Just had our first session with some combat. Turns out that as long as the cyberneticaly enhanced zombies are focussed on the front liners, a sniper rifle in close range is pretty nasty...

This campaign is gonna be fun, i can allready tell.

[Chijinda]

thanks to all y'all. Just had our first session with some combat. Turns out that as long as the cyberneticaly enhanced zombies are focussed on the front liners, a sniper rifle in close range is pretty nasty...

This campaign is gonna be fun, i can allready tell.

This is one of the reasons ranged > melee in most of the 40k game systems. Getting closer to a guy with the gun doesn't make him less dangerous. It tends to make him MORE dangerous.

My old GM lost probably two dozen mooks to our group's Assassin's autogun at point blank range by the time he figured that out.

[Swaoeaeieu]

This is one of the reasons ranged > melee in most of the 40k game systems. Getting closer to a guy with the gun doesn't make him less dangerous. It tends to make him MORE dangerous.

My old GM lost probably two dozen mooks to our group's Assassin's autogun at point blank range by the time he figured that out.

I assume you are right about the damage output being higher for ranged weapons. But the melee guy wasnt a pushover either. While i was taking potshots, my ally was surrounded by 4 or 5 dudes, dodging around and chainswording guys in the tasty bits.

On average range migh > melee, but i wouldnt say its unsatisfying to be either one.

[Anonymouswizard]

Can't you only dodge once a round?

The big problems with melee is that basic weapons can't deal much past armour (compared to guns), obviously lack the range, and I'm unlikely to let the party get their hands on the decent versions (I think I occasionally would allow a power sword past, but I retconned chain weapons last time I ran a game). And the inability to use cover.

It's not unsatisfying to use melee certainly, it's just less powerful, especially at the beginning when autofire gives a benefit when other styles might be Talent starved.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Can't you only dodge once a round?

The big problems with melee is that basic weapons can't deal much past armour (compared to guns), obviously lack the range, and I'm unlikely to let the party get their hands on the decent versions (I think I occasionally would allow a power sword past, but I retconned chain weapons last time I ran a game). And the inability to use cover.

It's not unsatisfying to use melee certainly, it's just less powerful, especially at the beginning when autofire gives a benefit when other styles might be Talent starved.

I obviously dont know how he did it. But i recall something like defensive stances being used? parries and the tactical decision to lop of claws.

Plus the dm decided that while we didnt find it in the rules to allow dnd's "5 ft step" We can step one square as long as we dont do any other movement that round.

But now that i think about it, can someone summarize how range works? Is point blank always 3 meters no matter what weapon? I can see the range stat on weapons, but how does that affect maximum distances and such?

[The Glyphstone]

Easier to quote the Errata here:


“All weapons
are given an effective range on the weapons tables. Short range is
below half of this number, long range is above double, extreme
range is above three times and maximum is above four times.
Below 3 metres is point blank range. The lasgun for example, has
a given range of 100. Short range is 3-50 (from point blank to
half the given range), medium is 50-200 (from short to double
the given range), long is 200-300 (from two to three times the
given range) and extreme is 300-400 (from three to four times
the given range).”

PBR = +30 to hit.
Short = +10
Medium = +0
Long = -10
Extreme = -30

And yeah, that "5-ft step" houserule is a huge benefit to ranged characters. Disengaging from Melee is supposed to be super difficult; it requires you to have training in the Acrobatics skill and pass a successful test to retreat as a 'move action', otherwise it takes your full turn to retreat even a small distance. It's one of the few things that melee has going for it; once you lock someone down in close combat, they usually have to go to pistols if they want to keep shooting at you.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Easier to quote the Errata here:



PBR = +30 to hit.
Short = +10
Medium = +0
Long = -10
Extreme = -30

And yeah, that "5-ft step" houserule is a huge benefit to ranged characters. Disengaging from Melee is supposed to be super difficult; it requires you to have training in the Acrobatics skill and pass a successful test to retreat as a 'move action', otherwise it takes your full turn to retreat even a small distance. It's one of the few things that melee has going for it; once you lock someone down in close combat, they usually have to go to pistols if they want to keep shooting at you.

Thanks for the summary!

So what you are saying is that the 5foot step rule might be a little too good to justify?

[The Glyphstone]

If your entire group is okay with it, you can keep it. Just be aware that it massively devalues melee combat, which is already weaker than ranged combat for reasons discussed in the thread. Having two melee-based PCs makes that seem like it's a net loss to you.

[Swaoeaeieu]

i will relay that advice to the group and see what we come up with.

Maybe it should be an option for high agility people or something.

[The Glyphstone]

Honestly, the easiest fix would just be making Acrobatics a Basic skill instead of an Advanced skill. That would let people do it Untrained at a -20, so there's a chance of being able to retreat and fight. That has the benefit of high-Agility characters who haven't gotten the training to attempt it, though if you are playing 2E it's likely that any high-Agility character probably has the Aptitudes necessary to buy Acrobatics training for cheap.

As-RAW, in melee you can:
1) Fight with a melee weapon/pistol
2) Spend your Full turn retreating [Agility bonus] meters.
3) Spend your move action retreating, giving the enemy a free swing at you.
4) If trained in Acrobatics, a successful Test will let you back up as a move action without the free hit. Failing the test costs you the entire turn, but doesn't trigger the free swing.

[Swaoeaeieu]

But it isnt just about retreating out of melee range. the ranged players also used our small steps to get a better angle on a shot and such.

[The Glyphstone]

But it isnt just about retreating out of melee range. the ranged players also used our small steps to get a better angle on a shot and such.

I'm uncertain what this is getting you, then. Unless I'm mis-remembering, you can still fire a full-auto or semi-Auto burst as a Half Action in 2e, which means you still have another Half Action left to do your move. That'll be the only move you make in a turn anyways unless you double-move or Run, so the effects on your ranged players are minimal. At best, it's an effective +10 to hit since they can [Free Move], Aim, and Shoot instead of having to pick between Move or Aim. Are they having to reload their weapons so frequently, or using up their second half-action doing stuff?

[Swaoeaeieu]

I'm uncertain what this is getting you, then. Unless I'm mis-remembering, you can still fire a full-auto or semi-Auto burst as a Half Action in 2e, which means you still have another Half Action left to do your move. That'll be the only move you make in a turn anyways unless you double-move or Run, so the effects on your ranged players are minimal. At best, it's an effective +10 to hit since they can [Free Move], Aim, and Shoot instead of having to pick between Move or Aim. Are they having to reload their weapons so frequently, or using up their second half-action doing stuff?

mostly. step-half aim- single shot.
As only one ranged person had a burst weapon that was a pretty solid tactic of doing respectable damage as the melee guy kept em busy

[The Glyphstone]

Well, like I said, if your group is happy with it, keep it. But between the free-action Disengages and the ability to Aim without giving up your movement, the balance pendulum swings even further towards ranged > melee. So I think the consequences might prove to be a net problem, especially once you start fighting enemies with ranged weapons of their own. It sounds like your first fight was only against melee opponents.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Well, like I said, if your group is happy with it, keep it. But between the free-action Disengages and the ability to Aim without giving up your movement, the balance pendulum swings even further towards ranged > melee. So I think the consequences might prove to be a net problem, especially once you start fighting enemies with ranged weapons of their own. It sounds like your first fight was only against melee opponents.

the very first fight did have ranged opponents, who we crit in the first round. The second fight was only melee zombies. So i assume you are right about this. Will bring it up to the group. thanks for the input!

[Destro_Yersul]

The big problems with melee is that basic weapons can't deal much past armour (compared to guns), obviously lack the range, and I'm unlikely to let the party get their hands on the decent versions (I think I occasionally would allow a power sword past, but I retconned chain weapons last time I ran a game). And the inability to use cover.

It's not unsatisfying to use melee certainly, it's just less powerful, especially at the beginning when autofire gives a benefit when other styles might be Talent starved.

"Melee is bad when you don't let the players have good melee weapons."

[Chijinda]

Yeah, not gonna lie, I kinda agree with that. Ranged > Melee in DH only because Ranged requires less of an investment to be good at. Aside from MAYBE mighty shot, none of the Ballistic Skill related talents are actually REQUIRED for a strong end-game character, and pretty much all the different firearms types in DH are more or less equal, with different advantages (ie. Bolt Weapons may be pound for pound, better than Solid Projectile or Las, but are extremely expensive to maintain. Plasma weapons hit obscenely hard, but can only be fired once ever second round. Melta hits obscenely hard too, but are extremely short range, etc.) so you can make a strong firearm user without much investment.

If you are making a melee character, you are basically NEED to get the high tier weapons. Unlike firearms, a Chain weapon is straight up BETTER than a primitive one and a Power weapon is explicitly better than a chain weapon. Compared to ranged weapons which, as mentioned above, have various pros and cons and comparing firearm types is more like comparing apples to oranges.

A well built melee combatant is perfectly capable of holding their own with a long range combatant, the main difference is that the melee combatant needs about a 2000 XP investment or so, and basically REQUIRES power weapons to compete, whereas the ranged combatant only requires about 500 XP and an autogun to get the most of it. You might argue Ranged, but assuming there aren't any cliffs or anything between targets, a melee focused character with Sprint and Hard Target can close in on a ranged opponent VERY easily, and a single good Charge attack with a Power weapon, on a well built melee character can borderline one-shot most other opponents. Seriously, assuming a Strength bonus of 5 and Crushing Blow, a decently built melee character with a power axe is putting out a MINIMUM damage of 15 per swing (that's literally if he rolls a 1 for damage), with enough penetration to go through any armor short of power armor. That's enough to straight up put almost anything human or Eldar into critical wounds in one shot, so if he has Crippling Strike as well, he's adding an extra 1-4 damage on top of that. And once in melee, a good melee character is getting up to three attacks a round with Lightning Attack and can reroll one of them with Blademaster. It's entirely feasible, even PROBABLE that a good melee character with a power weapon can drop 2 enemies a round easily, even if they're extremely well armored. Ranged weapons have a lot more trouble with that, as most of their high penetration weapons are only single-shot, or don't compete with melee damage (even a plasma pistol, assuming I remember its stats right, is only doing around 12 damage a shot on average, even WITH mighty shot.

If you're denying your melee characters the ability to get chain and power weapons you are flat out screwing over any melee builds, because unlike ranged weapons, a melee build DOES require better than their starting gear (indeed one of the reasons that Psykers are the best melee Career is the game is because they get exclusive rights to Force Weapons which are hands down superior to any other melee weapon in the game).

[Anonymouswizard]

"Melee is bad when you don't let the players have good melee weapons."

Leaving the system aside for a moment, chainswords are stupid and should be purged. They would be horrible weapons in real life. The DH1e hammer with a monomolecular edge is comparatively sane.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Leaving the system aside for a moment, chainswords are stupid and should be purged. They would be horrible weapons in real life. The DH1e hammer with a monomolecular edge is comparatively sane.

is that not basically an argument against anything in 40k? from what i have seen, all the tech is there because its awsome rather then practical.

[Anonymouswizard]

is that not basically an argument against anything in 40k? from what i have seen, all the tech is there because its awsome rather then practical.

Chainswords stand out to me as particularly useless. Pretty much everything else does have potential benefits over the 'dumb' version, a chainsword would be worse than a monomolecular edged sword (which I believe is cheaper).

[Chijinda]

Chainswords stand out to me as particularly useless. Pretty much everything else does have potential benefits over the 'dumb' version, a chainsword would be worse than a monomolecular edged sword (which I believe is cheaper).

Let's not kid ourselves here in pretending 40k technology is even remotely practical. Chainswords are no less impractical than plenty of other parts of the setting. Except unlike some of those other parts, chain weapons are one of the most defining aspects of 40k. 40k isn't 40k without a nine foot super soldier in power armor swinging a chainsaw sword at an equally big, green skin that's swinging its own chainsaw axe back.

It's 38,000 years in the future. I can suspend my disbelief and assume they found a way to make a chain sword work. Do you rule that all Titans instantly fall over flat on their faces the moment they try to take a step as well?

Either way, taking out chainswords just seems like you have a beef with the entire: "Rule of Cool" technology that 40k basically runs on. Suspension of disbelief and 3 millennia of technological advancement can be a thing.

[Destro_Yersul]

Leaving the system aside for a moment, chainswords are stupid and should be purged. They would be horrible weapons in real life. The DH1e hammer with a monomolecular edge is comparatively sane.

You are aware of what universe this is set in, right? This is a universe with four hundred foot tall battle cathedrals and immortal robot skeletons. Where FTL travel is accomplished by tearing open a portal to hell and flying your ship through it. Where the phrase 'drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword' came from, because tank commanders are modelled with cavalry sabres. Anywhere else, sure, I'd buy that chainswords are entirely impractical as a weapon, but in 40k they're not, because 40k says that chainswords are awesome and that's enough.

In real life, a chainsword would be worse than a monosword. BUT, and here's the thing, this isn't real life. Chainswords are better than monoswords because the system says they are. You may not like that. That's fine. But you don't get to take out the mid-tier melee weapons and then complain that melee is bad, because you made it bad by doing that.

[Alberic Strein]

You could say the same thing for Eldar guns. I mean, in what universe is shooting shurikens safe?

I may be completely mistaken, but while the Orks are the poster boys for "belief is power", namely painting their vehicles red does make the vehicles faster due to their belief that it should, most sentient races, if untrained, can do that. Including humans. For example, a weapon that killed a whole lot of people will make it easier for it to become a daemon weapon. Humans also have that kind of reality warping abilities, and since the concept of chainsword is inherently scarier than mono-swords, the former get a buff.

Also, there was a time in 40k when authors took great pleasure in making the 40k science as stupid as humanly possible. Like power fists so big you need to wear normal sized power fists to wear the uber power fists. Or the used-to-be-canon way to reload macro-cannons.
https://1d4chan.org/images/f/fa/Macrocannon.jpg
Do notice the little black humanoid spots. Yes, the cannon is reloaded by a huge number of men pulling on a rope.

None of that is supposed to make sense, it should not make sense, because in the setting science has gone so disconnected from the common man, and is in such a state of degenerescence, that it is considered holy, a miracle. Magic, essentially.

So chainswords not making sense? Good, that's how it's supposed to be.

[Swaoeaeieu]

So we had a new session, did some cool stuff. Made ''friends'' with some xenos. (our techpriest is diving happily into heretek)
And we got a bunch of cool loot. Some of wich were modified weapons and different ''patterns'' of regular ones.

i understand that patterns make a gun slightly different, giving slightly altered stats or apearance, and modifications are pretty clear in the core rules.

But are there similar things for armor? Can your alter it, upgrade it. I noticed you can mix and match parts, but are there modifications like with weapons?

[emeraldstreak]

But are there similar things for armor? Can your alter it, upgrade it. I noticed you can mix and match parts, but are there modifications like with weapons?

There are upgrades in one of the books, and they are pretty good.

[Swaoeaeieu]

There are upgrades in one of the books, and they are pretty good.

do youhappen to know wich one? i could ask the dm if he has it

[emeraldstreak]

do youhappen to know wich one? i could ask the dm if he has it

Whoops, somehow I was thinking Rogue Trader when I wrote that. If your DM is ok with it, they are in Hostile Acquisitions.

[Swaoeaeieu]

thanks. ill see what we can figure out