GURPS and Hero - The Meta Problem

[Rob Knotts]

GURPS 4th Edition and Hero System 5th Edition essentially expect you created your Player's Handbook for each game you run. More practically you're supposed to offer players pregenerated characters or character templates as a buffer between player character creation and the whole spectrum of character options offerred by the system.

I'm fortunate enought to know three guys who are experienced enough, and who trust me enough as a GM, to be perfectly happy starting out a game with pregenerated character/templates. Unfotunately that limits the group to three players, and when you keep in mind that these players have known each other for 10 years or more, player dynamics during a game tend to be watered down. I'm afraid new games will quickly lose steam if I can't find a few new players.

Problem is, in the past I've seen players who are new to the system I want to run, or just new to me as a GM, tend to reject pregenerated material (often equating it with homebrew rules for D&D) and want to have access to every possible character option in the core rules. This ends up in a new player to the group rejecting any character creation and building a PC who's a disaster waiting to happen.

"Newbie" players for Hero and GURPS games usually create characters from one of two categories: insane, crippled combat monsters, or Pros From Dover who (supposedly) do everything and (supposedly) do it well. The first type of character always ends up self-destructing, often during the first session, and the second usually gets taken down by relatively minor foes like an axe-wielding zombie. Either way, the new player becomes frustrated enough to never come back.

I've been running both of these games for about 20 years now, and I still don't know how explain to new players that they're better off using pregenerated character material instead of wading through all the rules for GURPS or Heroes to create a character without knowing what they're getting into with a new game or a new GM.

[Jayabalard]

I don't agree that anyone is better off using pre-generated characters in GURPS. Why pick a system that allows players that kind of flexibility and then throw it away like that?

If there need to be limits, talk to the players about them. Whenever possible, design around the sort of characters that they want to play; explain enough about the game world so that they can make informed decisions about what they want that will fit into the existing game world (pieces that you're not willing to change to match the character generation).

[Dairun Cates]

It's time to become familiar once again with the old goodie and friend to all, "The character generation session". When it comes down to it, the problem here is that the players can't know their boundaries or the setting without you telling them what it is. Because of this, instead of pre-generated characters, which do have a tendency to be frustrating, you can sit down and run the player through ever decision, give him advice, and steer him in the right direction. Does this take like 8 bloody hours? Oh dear god, yes (Sometimes more). It's necessary though. If someone's interested, odds are they'll stay if they can make their own character that lasts long enough. You also may want to give the dumber newbies a newbie net where they're semi-safe from dying in the first session. Let them get used to the system before you slaughter them.

[estradling]

I am curious as to what your question is.

Is it how do I find players for my GURPS and HERO games?
or is it how do I teach newbies how to build effective characters using GURPS and HERO rules?

For the first one I know their are websites and forums dedicated to GURPS and HERO games lots of players can be found there who are skilled in making characters, you'd have a better chance looking there.

For the total newbie, make the Character gen an interactive process between you and them with you creating the sheet to what kind of a character they want. It is a bit more work then a total Pregen, but you don't get any surprises and you can advise on what weakness the character has while it is being worked on. The players learn the sheet and crunch and if it is weak in some areas or it couldn't be build exactly the way they want, they know why and made the choice for that.

[talsine]

people don't do character generation sessions anymore? I can't think of a game, outside of a handful of one shots, where we didn't spend the first sessions getting the setting and characters out of the way. its pretty standered for us, and we play a lot of GURPS (2 games going, along with an Arcanis d20 game and a 4th ED Shadowrun game). I think its a great way to get everyone into character and to avoid stepping on toes w/o sacrificing a character concept.

[Matthew]

Create the Character with the Player. Alternatively, ask him for a concept and build it for him. Don't mention mechanics, just discuss concept.

[Cybren]

I don't agree that anyone is better off using pre-generated characters in GURPS. Why pick a system that allows players that kind of flexibility and then throw it away like that?

If there need to be limits, talk to the players about them. Whenever possible, design around the sort of characters that they want to play; explain enough about the game world so that they can make informed decisions about what they want that will fit into the existing game world (pieces that you're not willing to change to match the character generation).

Not all of the character options are appropriate to the campaign. As a GM you have to do a lot of pruning to find what "fits". GURPS is more of a system for creating your own game due to how flexible it is in nature.

[HidaTsuzua]

As a major hero player, I've seen the problem with new people for Hero. Hero gives you enough rope to hang yourself. I've found AP caps, defense guidelines, DC caps, and limiting the range on speed will typically allow people to have a rough idea of what their character should do. It doesn't solve all the problems but helps.

Offering help during character creation is the best bet. You as the GM know roughly what sort of things you're throwing at the PCs (lots of Mind Control, high KAs, etc) so help them build a character that can deal with those sort of threats. Be sure to help them make the powers they want useful. After all, Hero's greatest strength is freedom and nothing shows that more than having an useful power that could be a pain to get elsewhere.

The best way I've found to teach people Hero is though "Hero Boot Camp." Hero Boot Camp is a campaign in which the PCs start off low on points and play more or less normals (or extremely low powered supers). However give lots of experience (with caps on how much you can spend on any given power at once) for sessions. Introduce whatever source of "powers" you want (superpowers, magic, science) or keep things "realistic." The players should come up with powers that will be useful to the campaign. Also introduce concepts like grabs and the like slowly and in special encounters.

I'm surprised by the use of templates to the degree you mention. I've rarely made much in the way of templates beyond some racial templates for a high fantasy game. Our group have generally gone for you have X points and here are the caps and the setting. This is likely just a difference in group play style however.

[Dairun Cates]

On a flip side, I recently Homebrewed a version of BESM 3e for a Disgaea campaign. In order to keep things sane and keep abilities focused on a specific set, I set about class templates that get different skills at different costs. Most of my players told me that I was mad and that the system wouldn't balance well at all. After four sessions though, everyone's focused so heavily on their strong points that while everyone is min-maxed a bit. They're all min-maxed in a way that seems to break the game pretty evenly. The thief steals, the tank tanks, the healer heals and buffs, the ninja doesn't get hit, the gunner has a high to-hit, the mage deals massive damage a few times, and the overlord does a bit of everything. Judged against the average, everyone is broken, but compared to each other, no one is standing out as the biggest threat in the party or taking over everything. After that, I'm just ramping up the encounters to their difficulty.

[Rob Knotts]

It's time to become familiar once again with the old goodie and friend to all, "The character generation session". When it comes down to it, the problem here is that the players can't know their boundaries or the setting without you telling them what it is.I do that even with the regular players, the newbies never care.
You also may want to give the dumber newbies a newbie net where they're semi-safe from dying in the first session. Let them get used to the system before you slaughter them.Problem is, new players to these games tend to unravel the safety net so that they can have enough rope to hang themselves.

[Rob Knotts]

The best way I've found to teach people Hero is though "Hero Boot Camp." Hero Boot Camp is a campaign in which the PCs start off low on points and play more or less normals (or extremely low powered supers). However give lots of experience (with caps on how much you can spend on any given power at once) for sessions. Introduce whatever source of "powers" you want (superpowers, magic, science) or keep things "realistic." The players should come up with powers that will be useful to the campaign. Also introduce concepts like grabs and the like slowly and in special encounters.This is something I strived to do in the past, and it still seems to be the best way. The biggest obstacle is that new players usually think that thier character is optimised as much as the system allows, making thier character. Then they end up walking up to an axe-wielding zombie, taking off thier helmet, and daring the zombie to hit them in the skull as they bow. That really isn't an exaggeration, I've see new players to GURPS and Hero games do this sort of thing over and over again.
I'm surprised by the use of templates to the degree you mention. I've rarely made much in the way of templates beyond some racial templates for a high fantasy game. Our group have generally gone for you have X points and here are the caps and the setting. This is likely just a difference in group play style however.Really doesn't have anything to do with our style of play, GURPS published a several template books leading up to 4e (Wizards, Warriors, Villains, really liked Bloodtypes), and they're a lot more prominent in the GURPS 4e Basic Set than in earlier editions. Hero 5e focuses on templates a lot as well. Current genre books like Fantasy Hero and Star Hero features all sorts of templates for races, professions, and backgrounds. Champions generally doesn't use templates, as a superhero game it's supposed to have as open-ended character creation as possible. I think it has most to do with the success of D&D and it's reliance of race+class character creation.

As far as pregen characters go with my regular players, it depends on the game. They're comfortable enough with GURPS that they prefer to create their own characters (I usually devote a 4 hour session when I start a game just for character creation). For Hero, they're a lot more comfortable talking to me at length about the kind of character they want to run and letting me come up with the numbers.