How can anybody stop any Adult Dragon (That actually plays smart)?

[CrackedChair]

So Dragons. These flying reptiles are powerful. And all the while I am thinking how anybody can slay something like them.

I heard stories of DM's who don't play dragons out to their fullest and without real tactics instead of 'breath whatever breath, then smack them with claws', paticularly due to the fact they can fly, which is unfair, and breath down on them while out of reach from them.

I think Dragons played to their fullest would be far more dangerous than a CR of 13-17 would entail due to their slew of traits and legendary actions, alongside their movement and absolutely powerful breath weapons.

So what is everyone's thought on this?

[mephnick]

So Dragons. These flying reptiles are powerful. And all the while I am thinking how anybody can slay something like them.

I heard stories of DM's who don't play dragons out to their fullest and without real tactics instead of 'breath whatever breath, then smack them with claws', paticularly due to the fact they can fly, which is unfair, and breath down on them while out of reach from them.

I think Dragons played to their fullest would be far more dangerous than a CR of 13-17 would entail due to their slew of traits and legendary actions, alongside their movement and absolutely powerful breath weapons.

So what is everyone's thought on this?

If played correctly they are extremely strong, but if PCs are played correctly they are also extremely strong. Even though it's a step forward, legendary actions, lair actions and legendary resistances don't make up for action economy and good party combinations. By the level you encounter them, parties generally have ways of tying down flying characters or spells that will eventually get through the resistance and end the combat.

[Sir cryosin]

Dragons are really not that scary. For there breath attack. It must recharge after being used meaning you have to get a 5 or 6 on a d6. Meaning you can go the hole fight with only one breath attack. Yes a can fly around but they still have to come down to claw, bite, tail wack. Bows & crossbows can match or out range a dragons breath. There are class abilitys that make weapons magical to over come res and there are spells like magic weapon. A good party and organized party can take on any monster. Given time to prep and strategize.

[MrStabby]

Given time to prep and strategize.

Only an easymode dragon gives the party time to prepare. A proper being of that magnificence and power has lackeys to spy and the cunning to attacks when the party is low on resources at the end of the day. Why would a dragon ever look for a "fair fight". Attack at night, grab the sentry (apply breath weapon to camp if a warning has been shouted) and fly off. One on one with a grappled PC a dragon should do just fine. Go back to finish off the rest before they can prepare specific spells, recover HP, recover spell slots and so on. A smart dragon IS a nightmare until very high levels.

[Sir cryosin]

Only an easymode dragon gives the party time to prepare. A proper being of that magnificence and power has lackeys to spy and the cunning to attacks when the party is low on resources at the end of the day. Why would a dragon ever look for a "fair fight". Attack at night, grab the sentry (apply breath weapon to camp if a warning has been shouted) and fly off. One on one with a grappled PC a dragon should do just fine. Go back to finish off the rest before they can prepare specific spells, recover HP, recover spell slots and so on. A smart dragon IS a nightmare until very high levels.

That's only if the dragon knows if the party is coming for it. If a dragon is trying to sleep on it horde and the party knows a dragon live in that case or cave. They have time to prep. Dragons are powerful creatures and they may think of them self as gods but they are not all seeing.

[Sir cryosin]

Also keep in mind all good DM's know if it has stats players will find a way to kill it.

[CantigThimble]

As far as I'm concerned expecting to get a fair fight against a dragon (let alone surprise it) within 5 miles of its lair is pure foolishness. Plan on it hitting you with a breath weapon from heavy cover and then slipping away 4-5 times before you get anywhere useful. Expect it to set up distractions and false trails and use tactics to split you up. If you do get seperated from the group then you're getting grabbed and carried off to get drowned, dropped, or just ripped limb from limb. Any attempt at fortification or siege favors the dragon, it knows the terrain better than you and you'll fall asleep long before it.

Even an animalistic white dragon is an apex predator in it's home territory.

[Coidzor]

Even an animalistic white dragon is an apex predator in it's home territory.

Yes, but not because of going all Predator or Manhunter or what have you.

[CantigThimble]

Yes, but not because of going all Predator or Manhunter or what have you.

I was thinking more along the lines of a great cat.

Point is, no predator survives for centuries on size and strength alone and every animal knows how to exploit their natural capabilities against prey. Even if a dragon misjudges a party and attacks head on its going to be smart enogh to realize that they aren't easy pickings and retreat and swap tactics quick.

Edit: look at a tiger's hunting tactics. Now imagine its 3 times smarter, can fly and has a recharging breath weapon. Now weep.

[Lombra]

In a couple years of D&D me and my group have never faced a dragon. A couple sessions ago, our characters were venturing in the feywild (level 7 characters), after a fight, while traveling looking for a safe place to short rest, we hear a deep voice from the thick vegetation that's surrounded us for the whole journey.

After a couple of questions, the bearer of the voice reveals himself as being a green young dragon, praising our abilities to overcome the dangers of the place. After sharing with him our objective, to retreive an hostage captured by one who goes by the name of "the collectionist", he offers to help, since he knows where the well-known collectionist lives, to bring us to its liar and to protect us during the journey. We got through three wyverns and a bunch if trolls thanks to him.

We then come across a thick wall of leaves and branches, the dragon (His name is Conder) offered to bring us past the thick foliage flying, since we discovered it to be a huge maze. Conder then proceeds to bring us two at a time at the center of the maze, where the entrance of the collectionist's lair is. When the last couple arrives, they asked where the others were, since they couldn't see them. The dragon intimated the two to strip of their equipment, and pointed them towards a cave-like entrance, filled with kobolds waiting for orders. The dragon trapped us.

Each of us was imprisoned in an underground tunnel system digged by the kobolds, we mamage to come together, fight through the kobolds, and reach the hostage's room. We then proceed to look for our stuff, we know that the dragon's hoard is close, and that the dragon is not in his lair now, so we decide to grab our stuff and run away. We had to fight through more kobolds, exhausted, we let some of them flee, and proceed to retreive our equipment. Guess who comes just in time? Conder. Enters the cave through a waterfall, begging for us to stay and to not leave him, a quick mind-reading from our wizard confirmed that he is in fact the collectionist, so we pack our stuff and run as fast as possible, throwing decoys through the maze to confuse him, since he was relying on the wildlife to track us (precious information delivered from the rescued hostage).

In the end we manage to flee, and rescue the VIP, our stuff and ourselves.

I just wanted to share this little event because I think that our DM made a very good job at playing the dragon as he should be played: he revrealed himself after a fight, to minimize murderhoboism, he gained our trust (not of everyone, but everyone had to play along since nobody wanted to die anyways) he then revealed his true self only after splitting the party, and improsoned us. Then our DM managed to make us meet it again after the character were drained by the kobolds; I can tell you that he made a great job at making the dragon feel terrifying and dangerous, and he didn't even fight with us, he didn't even needed the dragon's stat block to make us fear it.

But we probably could have taken it down if we were fresh-rested I guess. (My character tried to resist the capture and suffered a complete attack from the dragon for a whopping 45 damage; his whole halth) I think that dragons shouldn't be played like isolated encounters, but should be part of a bigger adventuring day.

[Mellack]

For those saying dragons are going to always have masterful plans and great tactics, an Adult Green for example has an Int of 18 and a Wis of 15. If the party has a wizard and a cleric the party probably has members with that high or better stats. Do you expect the party to always have masterful plans and great tactics? If not, why would a dragon be expected to be better?

[JNAProductions]

For those saying dragons are going to always have masterful plans and great tactics, an Adult Green for example has an Int of 18 and a Wis of 15. If the party has a wizard and a cleric the party probably has members with that high or better stats. Do you expect the party to always have masterful plans and great tactics? If not, why would a dragon be expected to be better?

Depends. Combat as War or Combat as Sport?

Follow-up, how old and experienced are the PCs? A 40 year old veteran who fought in a war when he was 16 and never looked back is very different from a green 18 year old who just started combat.

[CantigThimble]

For those saying dragons are going to always have masterful plans and great tactics, an Adult Green for example has an Int of 18 and a Wis of 15. If the party has a wizard and a cleric the party probably has members with that high or better stats. Do you expect the party to always have masterful plans and great tactics? If not, why would a dragon be expected to be better?

Because it's hundreds of years old and has little to do other than plan ways to destroy intruders. Give almost any PC cleric or wizard 5 years and he'll have a dungeon worthy of gygax built.

[Unoriginal]

And all the while I am thinking how anybody can slay something like them.

Magic, weapons, the occasional siege engine...


I heard stories of DM's who don't play dragons out to their fullest and without real tactics.

Yes, those are stories.

Some DMs might make the dragon not use tactics to make thing easier, but it's not a prevalent issue.



paticularly due to the fact they can fly, which is unfair


Nothing unfair about it.



I think Dragons played to their fullest would be far more dangerous than a CR of 13-17 would entail due to their slew of traits and legendary actions, alongside their movement and absolutely powerful breath weapons.

Dragons are pretty much played to their fullest when at those CRs, so your assumption is incorrect.



A dragon is powerful, and they're terrifying opponents, especially in a place the terrain is in their advantage. But they're not so powerful that the only way for them to lose is by the DM playing them badly.


For exemple: dragon has little to no way to fight at range once their breath is used, meaning they have to go close and abandon their flying capacities, and even in flight they can be dealt with at range.


A dragon will not make the fight easy, but adventurers stand a good chance

[JAL_1138]

Forcecage. No save, automatically imprisons it.

Cloudkill might work if the Forcecage prevents it from beating its wings, but otherwise probably won't do the trick, since the dragon can likely disperse it. Most aren't immune to poison as Adult Dragons. Other spells might be able to pass through. Might also be able to shoot crossbow bolts between the bars if you're right next to them.

[JNAProductions]

Forcecage is too small for adult dragons, I believe.

[toapat]

It must recharge after being used meaning you have to get a 5 or 6 on a d6.

you can also go an entire fight where the dragon recharges the breath attack each round and breathes straight down for maximal effect, converting it's cone attack into a circle with a 90' radius.

OTOH i highly doubt most red dragons have a father of a Saturn V launch vehicle

[Mellack]

Forcecage is too small for adult dragons, I believe.

Adult dragons are listed as huge (15' to a side or 3 squares) and forcecage is 20' to a side as a cage or 10' to a side if solid. So the cage version should work, but the solid version is too small.

[gooddragon1]

Sounds like it's working as intended. What do you mean bias? I don't see any bias...

Honestly, I wouldn't have the dragon play dumb, but as a DM I would just give the party some sort of advantage and/or put the dragon at a unforseen disadvantage.

[Malifice]

If played correctly they are extremely strong, but if PCs are played correctly they are also extremely strong.

Dragons I see are never played correctly.

I played one correctly recently and it TPK'd a party of 5 x 15th level PCs (armed with Whelm, a fragment of the rod of 7 parts, two Ioun stones, paired magical swords, bracers of defence, and many many more, and bonus feats at 1st level). It was an ancient green dragon (not an adult one) but the point stands.

Ready action [multi-attack] + legendary action (wing buffet) followed by that ready action is funny.

Also funny is using multi-attack (and legendary actions) on PCs with 0 HP to kill them (attacking three times at +17 with advantage due to them being prone).

[Potato_Priest]

So what is everyone's thought on this?

It's all about the first round initiative.

Now, some may say that I wasn't playing this dragons mart enough, that it should have had loads of goons and what have you, but it was a white dragon. They aren't that cunning.

In this fight, the PCs had about 4 mammoths on their side. They approached the dragon, and combat began. (they were about 60 feet away and the dragon was on the ground in the first turn)

Some of the PCs went before the dragon and they shot at it and then covered under their mammoths.

The dragon went, flew up into the air about 40 feet in the air, close to straight above the party, and breathed on them. Those that hadn't taken cover got hurt pretty bad, but those who had succeeded their saves for mild(ish) damage.

Then it was the barbarian's turn.

He used his ring of jumping and strength 18 to jump onto a mammoth, then ran 10 feet along the mammoth and springboarded off its head to jump up to the dragon, and then grabbed one of its legs and hung on.

The dragon, of course, flew up into the air, mauling him with its attacks, while the rest of the party shot at it with arrows. By the time the dragon got its breath weapon back, it was far out of range of the party with it, and close to being out of arrow range(which was what it was trying to get to of course) so it just used it on the barbarian. He failed the save, but survived with 1 hit point remaining. The dragon at this point had taken so many sharpshooter hits that it had something on the order of 7 hp. The barbarian headbutted it, and the encounter was over. The pair fell back to earth and took 20d6 of falling damage, but that didn't overkill the barbarian so the fighter fixed him up with a medkit and the encounter was over.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Have it drink sake until it passes out. Dig a pit under the entrance to its lair, cover it, and stab its soft underbelly when it comes home. Pacify it with a holy symbol and bring it into town.

Look at folklore. The possibilities are endless. But sticking to the rules...if that one individual doesn't have command over an army or enough resources to hire adventurers, he's SOL.

[Malifice]

For exemple: dragon has little to no way to fight at range once their breath is used, meaning they have to go close and abandon their flying capacities, and even in flight they can be dealt with at range.

An adult dragon has a flying speed of 80' plus legendary action flight of + 40' when it beats it wings.

Taking the dash action (and vs a party of 3 PCs so 3 x legendary actions) it flies 280' per round.

More than enough for it to fly off for strafing runs when the breath weapon recharges.

And why are we talking about forcecage? Your average adult dragon is CR 15. Making it (only just) a deadly encounter for 5 x 9th level PCs. If its the only encounter that day, this is about right.

If the PCs had access to forcecage they're 13th level (at least), meaning an Adult dragon barely even registers as a 'medium' difficulty encounter (meaning the PCs are supposed to be dealing with around 6-8 such dragons between long rests, and be dealing with those 6-8 adult dragons with ease using only a small amount of resources).

If you have 6-8 spare 7th level spell slots for forcecage (and a spare 6-8000 gp) in your party between long rests, then be my guest.

[smcmike]

Plot. You beat a dragon with plot.

[JAL_1138]

An adult dragon has a flying speed of 80' plus legendary action flight of + 40' when it beats it wings.

Taking the dash action (and vs a party of 3 PCs so 3 x legendary actions) it flies 280' per round.

More than enough for it to fly off for strafing runs when the breath weapon recharges.

And why are we talking about forcecage? Your average adult dragon is CR 15. Making it (only just) a deadly encounter for 5 x 9th level PCs. If its the only encounter that day, this is about right.

If the PCs had access to forcecage they're 13th level (at least), meaning an Adult dragon barely even registers as a 'medium' difficulty encounter (meaning the PCs are supposed to be dealing with around 6-8 such dragons between long rests, and be dealing with those 6-8 adult dragons with ease using only a small amount of resources).

If you have 6-8 spare 7th level spell slots for forcecage (and a spare 6-8000 gp) in your party between long rests, then be my guest.


I was being a bit glib and overly-literal, granted, but your scenarios are changing the parameters a bit. No argument it isn't a viable strategy for a day of multiple dragon encounters, and is level-dependent. But the actual question was "how can anyone stop any adult dragon," not "how can someone beat an adult dragon as part of a standard adventuring day consisting of 6-8 CR-appropriate adult dragon encounters," nor was it "how can a party of 9th level characters beat a CR 15 adult dragon." Those are rather different scenarios (albeit the ones more appropriate by the encounter-building rules).

[Malifice]

I was being a bit glib and overly-literal, granted, but your scenarios are changing the parameters a bit. No argument it isn't a viable strategy for a day of multiple dragon encounters, and is level-dependent. But the actual question was "how can anyone stop any adult dragon," not "how can someone beat an adult dragon as part of a standard adventuring day consisting of 6-8 CR-appropriate adult dragon encounters," nor was it "how can a party of 9th level characters beat a CR 15 adult dragon." Those are rather different scenarios (albeit the ones more appropriate by the encounter-building rules).

I was making the assumption that 4-5 PCs encounter the dragon as a level appropriate challenge.

Throwing the Dragon at a bunch of 1st level PCs or throwing it at a bunch of 12 x 20th level heroes creates a very different scenarios.

[Saiga]

The question was whether a Dragon, played smart, could be beaten.

The answer is yes. 6-8 Dragons, fought within the same day, perhaps would not be beaten. But Dragons aren't so plentiful that that should be a common problem with running them.

[Kane0]

Last time i DMd i played a half black half green juvenile against the party. All i did was speak to them from above the canopy in the jungle they were in where they couldnt see it for them to feel outclassed, and one breath attack for them to surrender entirely

[Unoriginal]

Dragons I see are never played correctly.

I played one correctly recently

Define what you consider as "playing one correctly"



An adult dragon has a flying speed of 80' plus legendary action flight of + 40' when it beats it wings.

Taking the dash action (and vs a party of 3 PCs so 3 x legendary actions) it flies 280' per round.

More than enough for it to fly off for strafing runs when the breath weapon recharges.

Seems to me like it'd make it rather easy to take cover while the dragon is away, but true, in an open plain it can turn into hell.

[Malifice]

The question was whether a Dragon, played smart, could be beaten..

Well then the answer is: 'Yes'.

End thread.

[Moosoculars]

I think it is the cunning that make dragons dangerous. DMs should (in my opinion) make these creatures very hard to kill.

They should have traps and magic items in their hoard which they can use they should be attuned to and have on them.

The group I DMd faced 4 dragons over the course of the campaign and didn't kill one (though they came close on two occasions.)

For example the Black dragon (wrymling) had an underwater lair next to an underwater lake. He had escape tunnels he could flee through. Swimming underwater in the dark provided him with great stealth and he could ambush pcs on the shore of the lake with his breath and swim away. The Druid turned into a snake to investigate and got dragged underwater barely escaping with his life.

The white dragon attacked in the white out of a blizzard. Breathed his breath weapon attacked with claws and disappeared into the snow until the breath weapon recharged then repeated. The pcs got of some spells and arrows but in the end fled into some caves.

Later they faced the same white dragon again and all was going ok until the party realized that the white dragon asleep in the middle of his hoarde was an ice sculpture and the ice floor was deliberately shattered by the white dragon beneath them dropping them into a large killing pit where the dragon was waiting.

So killable yes. But I would rate them as very very hard if played properly by a DM and not as a sack of hit points.

[Moosoculars]

Oh and if you use the optional spell casting rules for dragons (and why wouldn't you) then disguise self (dragon version) to change the dragons color is a great use of the spell. Red dragons disguise themselves as white and vice versa. If pcs don't suss this then they waste rounds fireballing a creature which is immune to fire.

[Inglorin]

look at a tiger's hunting tactics. Now imagine its 3 times smarter, can fly and has a recharging breath weapon. Now weep.

http://img.picturequotes.com/2/681/680921/false-blame-quote-1-picture-quote-1.jpg

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I really don't see that the breath weapon is that devastating. Using the Adult Green again, it's 16d6. That's two 3rd level fireballs. Rather strong, but hardly game-breaking for the only thing you're doing every three rounds or so at high levels. Particularly given that elemental resistance isn't that hard to get hold of.


An adult dragon has a flying speed of 80' plus legendary action flight of + 40' when it beats it wings.Taking the dash action (and vs a party of 3 PCs so 3 x legendary actions) it flies 280' per round.

Uh, no. Wing Attack costs 2 Legendary Actions, so it's only getting 1 a round, for a movement of 200' a round if it dashes, or 120' if it doesn't. That means a dragon attempting a strafing run is probably going to take at least one round of fire as it disengages. More if the PCs somehow have the legendary weapons known as longbows.

[Decstarr]

I doubt you can simplify it like that. You might as well ask "can Tiamat be beaten"? and the answer would be "yes". If the circumstances are right and people have sufficient items, every monster can be beaten, that's the whole point of the game.

I believe Malifice was talking about beating the dragon at an appropriate challenge rating. And of course it is doable, but it should be hard. These are the creatures that give the game it's name, it's not called Dungeons & Illithid for a reason (though I believe it should be!).

What works best against any dragon (and might be accessible since its a level 6 spell) would be Otto's irresistible dance since it doesn't allow for an instant save and can force the dragon to descend. Downside is it has 30 feet range, so you'd need to get close in the first place.

My group took on an adult dragon by an interesting use of Dimension Door, feather fall and Polymorph. I wrote about it somewhere in the forum, just look for ape bomb. That is one strategy that could be viable.

In general, in most dragon fights, the main problem is the maneuverability of the dragon combined with the recharging breath weapon. So a group should do whatever it can to keep the dragon grounded and/or force it to land. Since an Adult one is "only" huge, polymorph into a Giant Ape and grapple might work well (assuming the dragon isn't airborne in the first place).

[Unoriginal]

What works best against any dragon (and might be accessible since its a level 6 spell) would be Otto's irresistible dance since it doesn't allow for an instant save and can force the dragon to descend. Downside is it has 30 feet range, so you'd need to get close in the first place.

Dunno, dragons are known to dance. Might just give them another advantage.

[JAL_1138]

I was making the assumption that 4-5 PCs encounter the dragon as a level appropriate challenge.

Throwing the Dragon at a bunch of 1st level PCs or throwing it at a bunch of 12 x 20th level heroes creates a very different scenarios.

Like I said, I was being a bit glib. The OP did comment that they felt dragons would outpace their listed challenge rating with good tactics, so it could be valid to assess them against someone overleveled for the dragon to be a full-fledged "boss" type encounter. But it's more practically-applicable, and better for balance/CR-appropriateness discussion, to consider them at the right level-difficulty per the encounter-building rules as you did. All the criticisms of using Forcecage (or other high-level, one slot per day spells for that matter) you made are accurate, and were good to bring up.

[Xethik]

Dragons I see are never played correctly.

I played one correctly recently and it TPK'd a party of 5 x 15th level PCs (armed with Whelm, a fragment of the rod of 7 parts, two Ioun stones, paired magical swords, bracers of defence, and many many more, and bonus feats at 1st level). It was an ancient green dragon (not an adult one) but the point stands.

Ready action [multi-attack] + legendary action (wing buffet) followed by that ready action is funny.

Also funny is using multi-attack (and legendary actions) on PCs with 0 HP to kill them (attacking three times at +17 with advantage due to them being prone).
I didn't see anyone else mention it (apologies if I missed it), but multiattack does not work when it isn't your turn. So if you ready an attack, end turn, Legendary Action, you only get one attack off.

[qube]

I played one correctly recently and it TPK'd a party of 5 x 15th level PCs

I was making the assumption that 4-5 PCs encounter the dragon as a level appropriate challenge.
That's either an inherent contraction or an exeption, As the correct way to play a CR X creature is to play it as a CR X creature, played correctly a level appropriate challenge wouldn't have TPKed the party.

Every creature is stronger if it's played smarter. Considering that an owlbear and a veteran have simelar stats, yet a veteran would be significantly smarter then the animalistic owlbear, this should be taken into account.


As for the dragon itself ... it only has a fly speed of 80ft and a ranged attack of 60ft. Meaning that a simple fly spell (which grants 60ft flight) is enough to stop it from effortlessly kiting.


If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as the fly spell.
Anything from a Hold Monster, Irresistible Dance, Eyebite spell, or a trip manouvre of the battlemaster archer of flying meleer ...


And there's alway ye good old Wall of Force: invisible wall right in front of a flying creature :D (while the mechanics might not exist, any reasonable DM would say that ramming head first into an immovable object, makes you drop down ...

[Dalebert]

Consider adult-dragon-appropriate-level PCs tho: various means to achieve flight, Walls of Force, Hold Monster, healing spells, Cutting words, evasion, yada yada yada.

You're severely underestimating upper tier 2ish and tier 3ish PCs and the kinds of tactics that such players develop with the experience they gained leveling them up. Sure, your dragon is smart and uses tactics. So do experienced players.

[Gnomes2169]

I didn't see anyone else mention it (apologies if I missed it), but multiattack does not work when it isn't your turn. So if you ready an attack, end turn, Legendary Action, you only get one attack off.

That would only be for PC's, since player characters with the Extra Attack class feature only get to use it on the attack action, not Ready Action: Attack (which is kinda dumb, but that's not the question at hand here).

However, some monsters actually have an action that is called "Multiattack," meaning that they can ready their Multiattack action (since any action a creature can take can be readied), and it is entirely legitimate by RAW.

[Malifice]

I didn't see anyone else mention it (apologies if I missed it), but multiattack does not work when it isn't your turn. So if you ready an attack, end turn, Legendary Action, you only get one attack off.

Source?

It doesn't work with the extra attack class feature (which specifies 'When you take the attack action on your turn') but you can ready a multi attack action just fine.

[Malifice]

That's either an inherent contraction or an exeption, As the correct way to play a CR X creature is to play it as a CR X creature, played correctly a level appropriate challenge wouldn't have TPKed the party.

Every creature is stronger if it's played smarter. Considering that an owlbear and a veteran have simelar stats, yet a veteran would be significantly smarter then the animalistic owlbear, this should be taken into account.


As for the dragon itself ... it only has a fly speed of 80ft and a ranged attack of 60ft. Meaning that a simple fly spell (which grants 60ft flight) is enough to stop it from effortlessly kiting.


If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as the fly spell.
Anything from a Hold Monster, Irresistible Dance, Eyebite spell, or a trip manouvre of the battlemaster archer of flying meleer ...


And there's alway ye good old Wall of Force: invisible wall right in front of a flying creature :D (while the mechanics might not exist, any reasonable DM would say that ramming head first into an immovable object, makes you drop down ...

A single CR 'X' creature is not an appropriate challenge for a party of 4-5 level 'X" Pcs. CR doesn't work that way.

In fact a CR 13 Adult dragon is barely an 'easy' encounter for 5 13th level Pcs. They're expected to destroy it in a round or two with limited resource expenditure. Probably a simple forecage or similar (A sharpshooter fighter 11/ ranger 2 action surging and spamming sup dice could possibly come close to shooting it out of the sky with a single action also).

It's a Hard encounter (just) for 5 9th level PCs. Not even deadly. The PCs are expected to win and win handily (with resources to spare to deal with several other encounters before long resting).

You're using CR wrong.

Also regarding its flight don't forget it can fly as a legendary action (wing buffet). It can rather easily keep it's distance from the party. Don't forget wing buffet also knocks you prone unless you can succeed in a DC20 odd Dex save (knocking anyone else in the air near the dragon to the ground).

It's no easy task kiting one.

[qube]

You're using CR wrong.How can I be using CR wrong, when you didn't specify which CR the dragon was you send against the party?

I pointed out your two statements contradict each other.

"I played one correctly recently and it TPK'd a party of 5 x 15th level PCs"
"I was making the assumption that 4-5 PCs encounter the dragon as a level appropriate challenge."
You simply can not argue that, unless we're talking about a highly exceptional situation, it's
a level appropriate challenge
it's played correctly
it TPK'd a party



Also regarding its flight don't forget it can fly as a legendary action (wing buffet). It can rather easily keep it's distance from the party. Don't forget wing buffet also knocks you prone unless you can succeed in a DC20 odd Dex save (knocking anyone else in the air near the dragon to the ground).An odd claim, as response to the post where I quoted the rules. To repreat, now with coloring:


Meaning that a simple fly spell (which grants 60ft flight) is enough to stop it from effortlessly kiting.


If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as the fly spell.

(red applies to the dragon, blue applies to the PC)

[qube]

Source?

It doesn't work with the extra attack class feature (which specifies 'When you take the attack action on your turn') but you can ready a multi attack action just fine.
Multiattack
A creature that can make multiple attacks on its turn has the Multiattack ability. A creature can't use Multiattack when making an opportunity attack, which must be a single melee attack
-- MM

[Malifice]

Multiattack
A creature that can make multiple attacks on its turn has the Multiattack ability. A creature can't use Multiattack when making an opportunity attack, which must be a single melee attack
-- MM

A readied action isn't an opportunity attack.

And because it's 'capable of making multiple attacks on its turn' doesn't mean it can't do so as the readied action.

[Lombra]

A readied action isn't an opportunity attack.

And because it's 'capable of making multiple attacks on its turn' doesn't mean it can't do so as the readied action.

If the readied action happens outside of its turn then it can only make one attack (except for when it's specified otherwise) because it is not using an action, but a reaction, it works like that for PCs, NPCs and monsters.

[qube]

And because it's 'capable of making multiple attacks on its turn' doesn't mean it can't do so as the readied action.Let me quote a wise man.


It doesn't work with the extra attack class feature (which specifies 'When you take the attack action on your turn') but you can ready a multi attack action just fine.
-- you

I'm not sure how you can try to argue a difference between "on its turn" (multi-attack) & "on your turn" (extra attack)

[KorvinStarmast]

Because it's hundreds of years old and has little to do other than plan ways to destroy intruders. Give almost any PC cleric or wizard 5 years and he'll have a dungeon worthy of gygax built. Yeah. (In our second campaign, we didn't need 5 years. :) )


I played one correctly recently and it TPK'd a party of 5 x 15th level PCs (armed with Whelm, a fragment of the rod of 7 parts, two Ioun stones, paired magical swords, bracers of defence, and many many more, and bonus feats at 1st level). It was an ancient green dragon (not an adult one) but the point stands. CR 22. Quite the challenge for the party.

[Malifice]

Yeah. (In our second campaign, we didn't need 5 years. :) )

CR 22. Quite the challenge for the party.

Is it even a deadly encounter for 5 x 15th level Pcs? Bear in mind they all had an extra feat, and 3 or more magic items each including a fragment of the rod of 7 parts (casts heal 1/day) plus whelm, boots of flying, 2 ioun stones, adamntine armor, a plus 2 shield, a finessable long sword that deals an extra dice of electrical damage with a companion short sword, a robe of stars and dozens of healing potions.

I think it might even only be 'hard'. Maybe just scraping into deadly.

It was also only their second encounter of the day. I hit them with it swooping from the sky directly after an encounter with 6 land sharks. That made it a bit harder.

The dragon got lucky with its breath weapon (kept rolling 5s to recharge it). It also made a point of whacking them when they were on 0 hp to kill them.

The druid was already wildshaped into earth elemental form and couldn't hit it in the sky but was immune to poison leaving him in a conundrum. The dwarven cleric was taking half poison damage. The bard and Warlock were struggling with the breath weapon.

The swashbuckler got away so it wasn't a total loss. He managed to get the party reincarnated from a NPC druid, but now they're without gear, and the Aasimar Warlock is now a halfling.

And hunting a very wealthy dragon.

[Xethik]

Let me quote a wise man.


It doesn't work with the extra attack class feature (which specifies 'When you take the attack action on your turn') but you can ready a multi attack action just fine.
-- you

I'm not sure how you can try to argue a difference between "on its turn" (multi-attack) & "on your turn" (extra attack)
To clarify, that is the same source I was referring to.

The SageAdvice on the topic mentions it is intended for there to be only one attack on a readied action:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/11/18/can-a-creature-ready-the-multiattack-action/

I would run it the same way I run Extra Attack, which is only on your turn on not on a readied, opportunity, or otherwise granted (Battlemaster Fighter/Mystic if I recall) attack when it is not your turn.

I think the opportunity attack line might be there to prevent issues with opportunity attacks taken during your turn.

[MaxWilson]

Only an easymode dragon gives the party time to prepare. A proper being of that magnificence and power has lackeys to spy and the cunning to attacks when the party is low on resources at the end of the day. Why would a dragon ever look for a "fair fight". Attack at night, grab the sentry (apply breath weapon to camp if a warning has been shouted) and fly off. One on one with a grappled PC a dragon should do just fine. Go back to finish off the rest before they can prepare specific spells, recover HP, recover spell slots and so on. A smart dragon IS a nightmare until very high levels.

It goes both ways though: only a foolish party gives the dragon time to prepare. The answer to the question "how can anybody stop an adult dragon that plays smart" is "by playing smart." Will involve things like recon by invisible Shadow Monks, ambushes and counter-ambushes, degrading the dragon's minions, fallbacks and contingency plans, etc.

Fundamentally, the party has a huge advantage if the dragon is a vanilla MM dragon: the party has access to spells and ranged weapons, and the dragon does not. The dragon chassis is pretty strong with things like Stealth, flight, etc., but a non-spellcasting dragon doesn't really have a solid answer to a tactic such as:

1.) Wall of Force on the dragon if it ever comes within Wall of Force range.
2.) Maintain WoF while someone else inscribes a few Symbols of Insanity around the dragon, and bring out the ranged PCs and perhaps a small supplemental army of skeleton archers.
3.) Get within 30' of the dragon's WoF cage (having someone else levitate you if necessary), and swap Wall of Force for Otto's Irresistible Dance.

Dragon is now dancing, and probably insane, and getting shot full of arrows and Eldritch Blast beams. It's only got about 250 HP in the first place so it dies. Note that this tactic works even if the dragon gets the jump on the party, e.g. wins initiative and grapples the wizard and flies away with him. He can still cast Wall of Force and choose to push the dragon and himself to different sides of the Wall of Force; then he Feather Falls down and proceeds as normal.

A spellcasting dragon (I make all of mine Dragon Sorcerers for thematic reasons) has a lot more options for being strategically proactive. Even something as simple as a 2nd level Invisibility or Misty Step spell on a Red Dragon Wyrmling gives that wyrmling lots of ways to take the initiative; mid-level options like Counterspell and Greater Invisibility give a dragon counters to the party's tactics like Wall of Force and make the outcome of the fight unpredictable as opposed to a cakewalk.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think it might even only be 'hard'. Maybe just scraping into deadly. Yeah.
The dragon got lucky with its breath weapon (kept rolling 5s to recharge it). Some days the dice love the monsters more than players. It happens.
It also made a point of whacking them when they were on 0 hp to kill them. Dragon meta games. Got it. :smallwink:

The swashbuckler got away so it wasn't a total loss. He managed to get the party reincarnated from a NPC druid, but now they're without gear, and the Aasimar Warlock is now a halfling. And hunting a very wealthy dragon. Ooh, grudge match. Awesome. Will you be selling pay per view? Could be some money in that one. :smallbiggrin:

[CantigThimble]

Dragon meta games. Got it. :smallwink:

Well, I think in a world with healing magic that can bring someone from the brink of death to fighting shape in seconds people would make much more of a point of finishing off opponents, especially if they suspected their enemies had magic.

[Malifice]

Dragon meta games.

The Dragon has fought adventurers before. As soon as the Cleric started casting heal on downed PCs bringing them back up, it was having none of that.


Ooh, grudge match. Awesome. Will you be selling pay per view? Could be some money in that one. :smallbiggrin:

Hillariously they triggered a random encounter on the way to te dragons cave and the cleric got dropped.

Luckily the bard has raise dead (and they have a spare diamond). Now they have to fight it with no gear, the Cleric at -4 to everything, and it gets lair actions this time.

Its also using their magic items (a few Ioun stones hovering around its head, and one of the rings of protection has resized.

Muhahahaha!

[Citan]

Dragons I see are never played correctly.

I played one correctly recently and it TPK'd a party of 5 x 15th level PCs (armed with Whelm, a fragment of the rod of 7 parts, two Ioun stones, paired magical swords, bracers of defence, and many many more, and bonus feats at 1st level). It was an ancient green dragon (not an adult one) but the point stands.

Ready action [multi-attack] + legendary action (wing buffet) followed by that ready action is funny.

Also funny is using multi-attack (and legendary actions) on PCs with 0 HP to kill them (attacking three times at +17 with advantage due to them being prone).


Is it even a deadly encounter for 5 x 15th level Pcs? Bear in mind they all had an extra feat, and 3 or more magic items each including a fragment of the rod of 7 parts (casts heal 1/day) plus whelm, boots of flying, 2 ioun stones, adamntine armor, a plus 2 shield, a finessable long sword that deals an extra dice of electrical damage with a companion short sword, a robe of stars and dozens of healing potions.

I think it might even only be 'hard'. Maybe just scraping into deadly.

It was also only their second encounter of the day. I hit them with it swooping from the sky directly after an encounter with 6 land sharks. That made it a bit harder.

The dragon got lucky with its breath weapon (kept rolling 5s to recharge it). It also made a point of whacking them when they were on 0 hp to kill them.

The druid was already wildshaped into earth elemental form and couldn't hit it in the sky but was immune to poison leaving him in a conundrum. The dwarven cleric was taking half poison damage. The bard and Warlock were struggling with the breath weapon.

The swashbuckler got away so it wasn't a total loss. He managed to get the party reincarnated from a NPC druid, but now they're without gear, and the Aasimar Warlock is now a halfling.

And hunting a very wealthy dragon.
It's very funny how you contradict yourself within two posts.

First you said you "played it correctly" (in spite of blatant violation of the rules, although not intended ;)) to imply that "Dragons are not that dangerous only because they are usually not played correctly, otherwise they would be deadly".

Then you argue that a single Ancient Dragon should not be deadly at all for a normal party of adequate level, even if played smart.

Then provide an illustration where, beyond the Multiattack and move fraud, you just played a Dragon as it should (I don't think it's any metagaming to finish off a character personally) with a bit of luck on rolls, against a party who was supposedly stacked with magical buffs (items) but already blew a nice chunk of resources (which could happen to any group). Just contradicting both previous points, unless we consider that TPK happened mainly because of the massive offense increase that Dragon got because of bad rules application, which is certainly arguable.


Seriously: choose your side of the argument. :smallbiggrin:

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Is it even a deadly encounter for 5 x 15th level Pcs?

Yes. Deadly threshold for 5 15th level characters is 32000, Ancient Green Dragon is 41000. Magic items bump that up a bit, but not that much.

[Malifice]

Yes. Deadly threshold for 5 15th level characters is 32000, Ancient Green Dragon is 41000. Magic items bump that up a bit, but not that much.

Just over deadly.

To be fair every single PC had a bonus feat and several magical items including one or two artefacts. That bumps them up at least a level each. Two different player characters can cast raise dead and the party had a stash of several 500 GP diamonds as well. Barring a TPK they were fine.

They had just accounted for a Titan the day before.

Against the party was the fact that I ran the encounter immediately after an encounter with half a dozen land sharks. Also against them was the fact the monsters CR was significantly higher than their character level.

I also concede I got multi-attack wrong. The rules are not clear but it does look like the intent is you can't use multi-attack with the ready action.

All of that being the case it was actually the breath weapon recharging every round that really got them.

Of course with a deadly fight they can get very swingy.

[JackPhoenix]

Have it drink sake until it passes out. Dig a pit under the entrance to its lair, cover it, and stab its soft underbelly when it comes home. Pacify it with a holy symbol and bring it into town.

Look at folklore. The possibilities are endless. But sticking to the rules...if that one individual doesn't have command over an army or enough resources to hire adventurers, he's SOL.

Fake sheep filled with quicklime, or a barrel filled with spikes. Sure, dragons in our local legends are animal-intelligence (and very ravenous), but I don't think I've ever read a legend about someone defeating them in a straight fight, it was always some sort of trickery.

Fairy tales are something else... their dragons are smart enough to blackmail kingdoms to send them maidens, and there usually is some kind of hero to behead it with a sword, but that's different kind of story (one that's "just a story" vs. "history that actually happened, I swear" for the legends. Fairy tales (at least the one known today) are also much more recent (18th-20th century for those told here).

[Unoriginal]

but I don't think I've ever read a legend about someone defeating them in a straight fight

Beowulf beat the dragon in a straight fight.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yes. Deadly threshold for 5 15th level characters is 32000, Ancient Green Dragon is 41000. Magic items bump that up a bit, but not that much. As I said, quite the challenge.

I also concede I got multi-attack wrong. The rules are not clear but it does look like the intent is you can't use multi-attack with the ready action.

All of that being the case it was actually the breath weapon recharging every round that really got them. Yeah, that's a load of damage right there from an ancient dragon.

Beowulf beat the dragon in a straight fight. Beowulf had plot armor. :smallbiggrin:

[JackPhoenix]

Beowulf beat the dragon in a straight fight.

So did saint George, I'm talking about local (i.e. czech) legends :smallcool:

[Lord Vukodlak]

How can anybody... well.

Diviners can use potent to force the dragon to use up some of its legendary resistances by turning successes into failures. If he doesn't use up the legendary resistance you've already scored a victory as the dragon accepted failure against whatever spell you used. Earthbind, polymorph a blast of an opposing element.

An Adult white dragon has only 200 some hp. Which can be chewed through rather quickly. His blind sight only extends out to 60ft. So yeah you can still ambush a dragon.
Now for an extreme example
A 13th level wood elf assassin with an oathbow could make the dragon his sworn enemy then hit him up to 600ft away at no penalty. Easily having the range to get surprise on a flying dragon which means an automatic critical hit.(its an assassin thing) You'd have 1d8+7d6 Sneak Attack+3d6 Oathbowx2+5 dexterity for 84dmg(average roll). You could throw in purple wyrm poison for another 21dmg(average roll after a successful save.) That's 105dmg.

Due to the oathbow the Assassin will have advantage on his attacks against his sworn foe letting him sneak attack without being hidden or having an adjacent ally. So he could do on average 42dmg a hit ignoring any possible critical hits and poisons.

Now that's just the assassin's action.

[Unoriginal]

Let's not forget how any item providing immunity to the type of the dragon's breath is going to impact the fight drastically.