View Full Version : Star Wars hack, PbtA (all ideas and suggestions welcome)
I just got Dungeon World and it looks like a really great system for running swashbuckling adventures where lots of crazy things are happening at sometimes rapid speed with a quite lightweight and flexible rules system. And that had me immediately think of using it to run that Knights of the Old Republic campaign with, that I had been planning for the last couple of weeks. I can imagine every single scene done by happening to Han Solo as moves and counter moves by player and GM, with some rolls failing but the vast majority suceeding with negative consequences. The whole journey from Hoth to Bespin is a seamless string of "yes, but".
Overall the game system looks very solid to me and really well suited to running Star Wars campaigns with all the standard moves being great fits, but of course the classes and equipment provided are all for a standard fantasy world. This is where I see the primary need to put together a hack that provides the necessary alternative material.
What I see as needing adressed at first glance:
Ability Scores
Classes
Species
Weapons and armor
Vehicles
The Force
If you can think of anything else that would need to be added to the list, please share it.
On some of these issues I already have some thoughts:
Ability Scores
Dungeon World uses the standard ability scores from D&D in the Basic edition variant. This does work. Star Wars d20 and Star Wars Saga both used it and it was fine. But I personally don't think this is the best way to do Star Wars in DW because this game does not have skills. Instead I am more taken with the six abilities from WEG Star Wars d6: Strength (including constitution), Dexterity, Knowledge, Perception, Mechanical (piloting), Technical (repair).
Since almost all weapons are ranged or lightsabers, Dexterity becomes basically the Combat Skill. Strength makes the physical power and toughness ability. Piloting and Repair are both major things for pretty much all Star Wars characters, even if they are not good at it. Perception is also fine but I am not so sure about Knowledge as an ability. That's what the Spout Lore move is for and you could maybe also use it for Discern Realities. Any thoughts on weather Knowledge should be switched for something else or just removed entirely?
I also think the ability scores from 3 to 18 are just a nostalgic D&D thing. I would just go with modifiers like I believe Apocalypse World does it. To determine hit points, I would instead just increase the base hp by 10 and add the Strength modifier to that. This gets you a pretty similar total of hp.
Classes
I actually really like how Saga Edition manages to present all Star Wars heroes with just five classes: Soldier, Scout, Scoundrel, Noble, and Jedi. I think these would also work really well here.
Species
Star Wars has a massive amount of different species and covering just the most common one would easily get you a list of 20+. If you would give a speciall move to each species and class combination you would have to come up with over 100. I'm not sure that's worth the effort. Maybe make it one move that all characters of a species get, regardless of class?
JBPuffin
2017-07-04, 02:38 PM
I'd suggest scrapping some of the baggage from DW and copy AW instead - don't worry about racial abilities (Greedo and Han Solo are both Scoundrels, tbh) and use the mods for scores (5 attributes is a good set, so making "Knowledge" a move is a good call). Classes are literally just another word for playbooks, so whatever you do here is fine. The Force should be moves available to the force-using playbooks; since other 'books usually have an upgrade option which says "get a move from another playbook," anyone can be force sensitive! Yay! Weapons and armor are iffy - other AW games don't focus as much on them, and considering how Star Wars feels as a universe I think you might want to do the same.
Yeah, multiclass moves for non-trained Jedi really adress that question before you get to ask it.
I also think that the Jedi class should be like the bard or druid, not like clerics and wizards. When you go by the movies, there are actually very few force powers and great jedi masters having a total of 10 force powers is already extremely versatile.
I already have some ideas for weapons. It's basically all tag.
Equipment
Should the campaign include money in specific quantities? Given that the players are likely to be purchasing pimped out space ships at some point, the numbers you'd be juggling with later would be absolutely massive and the prices for blasters and accomodations barely detectable anymore. I think there should probably be a different way to determine what characters can afford or not.
That being said, here's a draft for a weapon list.
Ranged Weapons
Blaster Pistol
reach, near; 1 weight
Blaster Carbine
near, far; +1 damage; 2 weight
Blaster Rifle
near, far; +2 damage; 3 weight
Bowcaster
near; +1 damage, forceful2; 3 weight
Melee Weapons
Vibro-dagger
hand; precise1; weight 0
Vibro-sword
close; +1 damage; 1 weight
Energy Pike
reach; stun; 2 weight
Lightsaber
close; +1 damage, precise1, ignores armor, messy :smallamused:; weight 0
1 Uses Dex instead of Str.
2 Can knock people off their feet. I basically made the bowcaster an action movie shotgun.
Special weapons could simply have additional tags.
I was considering whether blasters would have the n Ammo tag. Of course, the blasters do have energy cells. But anyone having to reload or run out is never part of the fiction in Star Wars, so I would go with giving them all unlimited ammo. Unless the GM dcidedes to pull a mean hard move after a character has been shooting his blaster for ages on end. :smallamused:
Grod_The_Giant
2017-07-04, 03:19 PM
I'd suggest scrapping some of the baggage from DW and copy AW instead
My understanding is that Dungeon World is less harsh than Apocalypse World (which, the one game I played, was absolutely brutal-- any time we picked up the dice, we were basically guaranteed to make things worse), which is probably more appropriate for Star Wars.
Also, I feel like there are definitely PBtAW Star Wars hacks out there already. Have you looked any up for inspiration?
I looked for them and found mention of them, but was not able to find any actual material.
For classes I've been going through the book and you get a pretty solid base of moves from Bards (noble), Fighters (soldier), rangers (scout), and thief (scoundrel).
Rakaydos
2017-07-04, 04:01 PM
I just got Dungeon World and it looks like a really great system for running swashbuckling adventures where lots of crazy things are happening at sometimes rapid speed with a quite lightweight and flexible rules system.
Out of curiosity, are you falmiliar with Edge of Empire, or are you coming from Saga alone?
Saga, d20 (through KotOR), and WEG.
FFG is pretty high on my list of RPGs that don't appeal to me in any way. (Being 18 times as expensive as Dungeon World being one big factor among many.)
JBPuffin
2017-07-04, 04:21 PM
My understanding is that Dungeon World is less harsh than Apocalypse World (which, the one game I played, was absolutely brutal-- any time we picked up the dice, we were basically guaranteed to make things worse), which is probably more appropriate for Star Wars.
Also, I feel like there are definitely PBtAW Star Wars hacks out there already. Have you looked any up for inspiration?
Yeah, I'm not advising complete scrapping, just maybe not copying some things DW does to make it a dungeoncrawl rather than...whatever AW normally is. Having gear matter in a Star Wars based thing (where the options are laser gun, laser sword, and more of both) seems weird, especially since armor seems pitiful when it shows up in the movies. Admittedly, I've had almost no experience with the old EU, which might change things...
Rakaydos
2017-07-05, 01:38 AM
Saga, d20 (through KotOR), and WEG.
FFG is pretty high on my list of RPGs that don't appeal to me in any way. (Being 18 times as expensive as Dungeon World being one big factor among many.)
I think you might be pleasantly surprised, if you could find the books secondhand and an online diceroller.
Yeah, I'm not advising complete scrapping, just maybe not copying some things DW does to make it a dungeoncrawl rather than...whatever AW normally is. Having gear matter in a Star Wars based thing (where the options are laser gun, laser sword, and more of both) seems weird, especially since armor seems pitiful when it shows up in the movies. Admittedly, I've had almost no experience with the old EU, which might change things...
Certainly. I think a good hack would be doing more than simply replacing classes. XP is one of the things I am looking at:
XP for resolving bonds and rolling 6- should work just as fine as usual. At the End of Session, giving all characters XP if the party "learned something new and important" or "overcame a notable enemy" seems also like a good fit.
But "looting treasure" seems completely out of place, especially when you do ignore money. Acting out your alignment also doesn't apply. The only alignment Star Wars has is going to the Dark Side or not, and that really only applies to Jedi. These things could simply be dropped with there still being four more sources of XP, but perhaps there could also be neat things to replace them with.
Regarding equipment I am actually looking at all this with Knights of the Old Republic in mind myself. Armor seems to be a more prominent element in that context. Though I agree that having specific weapons and armor could be completely optional. The game should work just as fine without using any of it and all classes simply dealing their base damage.
It does look different when you look at vehicle combat, though. You're not really fighting enemy pilots but their ships, speeders, and walkers. And I am not sure if treating these as massive monsters would really be the way to go. Though it could actually be an interesting approach.
Space Combat
I got an idea for handling space combat. Given how the system overall works, any solution needs to be really simple and introduce as few new concepts as possible.
So my idea is to handle space ship combat just like any other combat, with the exception that not all weapons can defeat all enemies:
Blasters can fight [people and droids], as well as unarmored [speeders].
Mounted heavy blasters can fight [people, droids], all [speeders and walkers], and [starfighters and transports]. (They don't deal more damage than blasters because they don't aim well at individual people.)
Starfighter and transport lasers can fight [people and droids], [speeders and walkers], and other [starfighters and transports]. (Also don't kill people any faster because they are so hard to hit.)
Capital ship turbolasers can fight [starfighters and transports] and [capital ships]. (Again do not deal additional damage to starfighters because those are hard to hit.)
We do not normally see starfighters dealing any actual damage to capital ships, so making starfighter lasers unable to destroy capital ships seems to most appropriate approach to me. When you're in a transport and get attacked by a capital ship, you're screwed. But there is a solution, which is the same as in World War 2, on which Star Wars space combat is based, and which is the reason why anyone bothered to bring planes to a fleet battle in the first place: Torpedoes.
I would treat torpedoes the same way as grenades in ground combat, just with a much larger blast radius. In space they are a limited number of shots you have before you run out.
I really like this idea because it really doesn't add anything new. All you need to consider as GM is whether the weapon in question can harm the target. The difference between a corvette and star destroyer is merely how much hp, damage, and armor they have. Which I think I'll get to once I have statted the regular enemies and got a feel for the process. (Which still looks really easy.)
Does anyone spot any flaws with this? This is Dungeon World after all. Results don't need to be realistic but emulating the cinematic style of the movies and videogames.
Actana
2017-07-07, 02:54 AM
I realize I posted this in the other thread as well, but have you checked out Uncharted Worlds (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/162122/Uncharted-Worlds)? It's basically a flexible space opera PbtA game, and would be a lot easier to hack for Star Wars specifically than Dungeon World, as it has most of the components already.
Having researched it some, it doesn't sound like a good fit, at least not for how I see Star Wars. It doesn't seem to do pulpy swashbucling adventure. The hit points and classes, which I think are unique to DW in PbtA games, seem actually pretty important to me in a Star Wars campaign. I see more comparisons to Star Trek, Firefly, and Traveler, while Star Wars really is a reskinned fantasy world running on fantasy logic.
Let The Hate Flow Through You
- Is the dark side stronger?
- No. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
At the End of Session, every character who used the Force in anger gets 1 XP.
Actana
2017-07-07, 04:18 AM
Having ran a pulpy scifi game with Uncharted Worlds to great success, I'm not entirely convinced it isn't.
My main issue with using DW for fantasy is that the game just simply isn't made for scifi at all. Like most PbtA games, DW holds a rather tight focus around certain kinds of games, and DW does it for D&D-style adventures, which to me are not really something Star Wars does at all. The moves available to the PCs are something to take a further look at, especially the Special Moves. Very few of them fit any kind of scifi setting: the End of Session questions are firmly in the realms of fantasy dungeon delving and worldbuilding, Carousing and Recruiting are likewise. Camping, Taking Watch and Perilous Journeys are also very tuned to things that are important and relevant to fantasy adventuring but not necessarily scifi.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the task is impossible, I just think you'll find yourself fighting the system right from the start when there may be better options available.
Edit: another game that might interest you is Fellowship (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/177662/Fellowship--A-Tabletop-Adventure-Game), which is a sort of "classic adventuring story" told with characters taking the roles of various archetypes. While the playbook names and terms used are very much in line with LOTR, it can in fact be used in any kind of setting just by fluffing them differently. I wasn't the hugest fan of the game when I ran it (some of its mechanics felt a bit awkward), but I'll chalk that up on my relative inexperience with it. Star Wars is, as far as I recall, one of the games it explicitly calls out as being able to emulate to some degree.
Fellowship does have a large focus on worldbuilding, so using an established setting might not be the best idea unless you can interweave both player-focused creative input into the setting and a pre-existing one.
Of course you can't really run Star Wars with the Dungeon World book. Which is why I am making a hack.
Actana
2017-07-07, 04:50 AM
And I'm saying you might have an easier time starting the hack with a system that already does scifi and adding in the features you feel are integral to Star Wars. :smallsmile:
That said, you might want to start with modifying the Agendas and Principles of the game. They're very important to focus on the essentials of what it means to be in a Star Wars story. Those should carry the design focus of the game into other areas such as Moves (also very important) and only then the playbooks. Figure out what kind of archetypes exist in Star Wars, how they interact with each other and what they do. And also quite importantly you need to have more than 5 of them, enough that everyone playing can have a chance at using their own unique playbook but at the same time aren't forced into playing a specific one because there isn't enough of them to go around.
It was linked in the other thread as well, but I was able to hunt down a more finished copy of the Star Wars hack, this time in an actual pdf form. It might help somewhat: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B0a_iGRNRo6BUm53Q2ZNdVZZcDQ
Overall, I'd also recommend getting your hands on as many PbtA games as you can and see how differently they do things. Because sticking to just DW seems a bit awkward, especially given that it's considered one of the "least PbtA" PbtA games out there. Looking through the above pdf, it seems to draw features from Dungeon World (threats and bonds), Sprawl (countdown clock), Monster of the Week (advancements and health) and a few others that I don't know the source of. Of course, these might be features in other games as well, but most PbtA games share more than a bit of mechanical design in many ways.
And I'm saying you might have an easier time starting the hack with a system that already does scifi and adding in the features you feel are integral to Star Wars.
And here I fundamentally disagree. To make a Star Wars game it's a much better idea to start with a fantasy system and add space ships. Star Wars completely handwaves technology and dumps any hints of science. It's all about kung-fu monks with swords and gunslinging pirates.
Adding the specific Star Wars touches you mentioned (principles, archetypes, ...) is something you will have to do either way.
Having browsed through info about more direct Apocalypse World hacks, I actually think Dungeon World makes a great fit for Star Wars because of it's major differences, not despite it.
Actana
2017-07-07, 08:18 AM
I honestly don't mean to sound so aggressive about this, so apologies if I come off as such. I'm not against the idea, I just think you'd have an easier time with another system. I do believe you're fairly set on using Dungeon World by now, so I'm going to try to give out some constructive feedback on how to do it, as well as explain why I don't think it's necessarily the best way to do it.
I don't really disagree that Star Wars is about fantasy in space, but what Dungeon World does is D&D style fantasy (travel to area (known in shorthand as the dungeon), explore area, beat up nasties, take their treasure, return to town to spend it, repeat). Star Wars is very much not D&D style fantasy. Dungeon World is made for that kind of game, and as such that's what it does. Hence why I think it's a better idea to start with another system instead that does a different kind of fantasy. If you're going to hack the entirety of DW to fit Star Wars, what are the parts of it that remain that can't be found in other hacks? Levels? The stats? Hit points? I think that's about all there is. And that's not a lot, to be honest. But if those are the things you want in the system then Dungeon World might work, but it's going to be a lot of work.
As far as playbooks go, you'll have to start hacking them from scratch to fit DW. Most of the archetypes of Star Wars already exist in Uncharted Worlds, for example, though of course you'd have to create one or two for the Jedi and Sith. But the fantasy classes in DW don't really fit scifi at all, so you may have to scrap them all. Regardless, it's not an impossible thing to do, and can be a pleasurable challenge overall (although creating playbooks from scratch is actually more difficult than it sounds, speaking from experience). I'd likely recommend looking up the Prestige Classes of Star Wars Saga if you want a basis of concepts to go with. They're fairly prominent Star Wars archetypes after all (at least in the core book, and not necessarily all of them). As mentioned, I think the 5 base classes are a bit too few.
Finally, a bit of a tangent when it comes to game design in PbtAs. It may be a bit obvious, but I had already written it by the time I realized that so here you go anyway:
A thing to remember is that PbtA games hinge a lot on how the GM presents things, and as such you can do many different things with flavor in the same system. However, PbtA games also involve their mechanics in the style of flavor it creates, so while the exact genre can vary a lot, the very core of what and how you do things remains the same. A good way to go about this is to see what kind of names the system gives the basic moves. You can have "Hack and slash" for D&D fantasy, "kick ass" for an urban fantasy monster hunting, "launch assault" for scifi, "lash out physically" for messy teenage monster drama and so forth. While they all feature roughly the same sort of actions (attempts of physical violence against a target), they are all presented very differently through the moves. Mechanics will color the presentation of the setting, but not dictate it. It's the same for every system, but I find that PbtA games implicitly emphasize it.
So what I mean by this is that when creating everything (but moves especially), pay extra care to how you present it and what the move in question is meant to achieve.
I feel like I am already pretty much done with adapting the system, all that I still have on my to-do-list is a handful of new moves for bard, fighter, ranger, and thief to replace those that are not fitting for noble, soldier, scount, and scoundrel. So far it's been very easy and only took maybe an hour or two.
Ability scores. (check)
Dropping treasure as an XP source. (check)
Modifying four classes.
Creating Jedi class.
Weapon list. (check)
Space Combat system. (check)
I don't see what the problem is.
Actana
2017-07-07, 01:08 PM
Honestly, not to draw this out further at this point it more or less comes down to the argument of "I don't think DW's mechanics represent Star Wars particularly well", while you think they do. Both are pretty valid as far as opinions go, so I guess it simply comes down to a matter of opinion.
I'm still quite interested in seeing what you've come up with though.
The real question is what does AW do that is a better for Star Wars than what DW does? Leaving aside the whole issue of whether DW is good or bad for that purpose, in what ways is AW better for it?
JBPuffin
2017-07-07, 01:37 PM
The real question is what does AW do that is a better for Star Wars than what DW does? Leaving aside the whole issue of whether DW is good or bad for that purpose, in what ways is AW better for it?
Not much except for the Driver playbook; I think AW will have the vehicle rules you're looking for, but I think you're definitely right about starting Star Wars from fantasy and sciencing it up rather than the other way around, and looking at AW again, there's not that much particularly conducive to Star Wars that DW doesn't already do. The thing that really got me was the way DW handles gear, but I haven't played KotOR and therefore come from a very different understanding of the universe. DW's probably an easier place to start from for a reskin.
Actana
2017-07-07, 01:53 PM
I'm not saying Apocalypse World is better. My own personal pick would be Uncharted Worlds, which has the following features:
Agendas and Principles suited towards scifi games. They're broad enough to work for Star Wars as well, but perhaps one or two may need to be added to account for the Force.
The game's Moves are all in line with scifi without having to be modified. From the basic moves to the enterprise moves (spaceship moves in other words) to the career moves, they offer more scifi flavor off the bat. Ditto as above, you might want to add something regarding the Force to use it. The Star Wars hack posted earlier would work (though as I've read through that one as well, I might just use it instead myself. But that's neither here nor there.)
The stats of the game work better than the D&D array. Mettle, Expertise, Physique, Influence and Interface are the stats. It works a bit better for my tastes at least.
Origins for characters. They can choose from ten different background planets or backgrounds (advanced, brutal, colonist, crowded, galactic, impoverished, privileged, productive, regimented, rustic), giving them an ability from that origin. This fits with making the galaxy feel like a large and varied place, each character coming from different backgrounds, represented mechanically.
Freeform careers. Again, there are ten different careers (academic, clandestine, commercial, explorer, industrial, military, personality, scoundrel, starfarer, technocrat) of which players choose two at the beginning, gaining abilities from them. Each career has 5 abilities. The combination of these careers would allow for a great variety of scifi archetypes, from military operatives (clandestine/military) to spaceship smugglers (starfarer/scoundrel) to tech experts (technocrat/industrial) to diplomats (personality/academic) and anything in between. With Star Wars I'd probably create at least two additional careers for Jedi, Consular and Guardian, to represent Jedi and perhaps one to represent Sith. That should be enough to represent all kinds of Star Wars characters.
Career advancement. Instead of classes, advancement in Uncharted Worlds happens through goals. Each career has a series of objectives. You choose one objective in any of the available careers, and whenever any player's objective happens everyone gains XP. When you've accumulated enough XP (which grows as you gain abilities), you gain a new move from the career the objective was in, cross that objective off and pick a new one (in any career). This allows characters to learn beyond their starting situation, allowing characters to pick up Jedi talents during the game, and scoundrels to become perhaps more than what they are. This happens without the need for multiclass mechanics too, as there are no classes per se.
Equipment. Equipment is handled via classes from 0 to 4, each being more powerful and rare than the former. You build your own gear through starting with a template (for example, rifle) which may have a few base tags and then add a single upgrade per class. The game has also a few examples. For example, a sniper rifle could be a Class 2 rifle, with the Scope and Silenced upgrades on it. A lightsaber could on the other hand be a class 3 melee weapon with the Defensive, Energy, Severing and Penetrating (melee weapons gain 1 extra upgrade). This way you can both have regular equipment as well as custom items and weapons important to characters. Armor and even vehicles work the same way, each category having their own upgrade list. Tags have no inherent mechanical value (with a few exceptions), but they are very important narratively.
Factions. The game has an inbuilt, albeit a bit light, system for handling debt and factions within a game. Characters can call in favors from factions but can also owe them things. They essentially act as a way to frame a campaign more. That said, I don't think this is particularly well done in the game, and for example DW's threats is a much more coherent and better built system for its purposes. Still, factions and debts and favors are a rather big deal in Star Wars.
Spaceships. If you want to focus on space adventures with a single ship as a focal point (like the Millennium Falcon), the game offers ways to do that as well. Spaceships have their own sections which are chosen by the players at the start of the game, and there are various rules for how they operate, giving everyone something to do when space combat hits, for example, from rigging the engines to piloting to shooting targets to keeping the shields up.
That said, the system does have a few downsides as well. Buying and selling things is a bit awkward, relying on this abstract inventory of "cargo" of various class. It also could do with a few more special moves to refine the scifi purpose, and its GMing section and overall campaign framing tools are very limited in scope. Its lack of mystics for the Force is a bit disappointing as well, as psionics are a very common scifi trope, but those shouldn't be too hard to hack in as extra careers, and even perhaps an origin.
For personal taste, perhaps the injury system isn't what you're looking for, but I like it better than DW's hit point system. The injuries (which you have 5 tiers of) all feel significant, since they're measured in words rather than numbers. Combat is also a bit more simple, with no actual damage accounts being dealt, instead fights with opponents are dispatched with a single successful roll. Multiple opponents would of course take more, as would opponents of different variety.
With that in mind, if you're going to hack a PbtA system it helps immensely to read Apocalypse World because it's the first of them, and in many ways the "purest" of what PbtA games do (because it's the first). Reading what other games can do in detail helps in general.
Well, that became a rather long summary, but I hope it's clear enough about the mechanics.
Now that I know how Dungeon World works I am actually starting to make some sense of the gibberish of the Apocalypse World rules. And that thing has the weirdest way to organize content as a way to teach the game that I have seen since AD&D 1st edition. The rules seem to be getting explained in the second half of the book while the first half is... I don't have the faintest clue. :smalltongue:
Looking at the Harm rules I am coming to agree that hit points and damage rolls really aren't the best way to go for Star Wars. Looking only at the first movies (which really set the standard for how things are meant to work), characters don't get battered down until they collapse. They go through stages of combat effectiveness. (Like Saga Edition somewhat attempted to emulate by stacking a condition track on top of hit points.) Leia gets shot once and is almost out of action. C3PO gets shot once and has to be reassembled. Luke gets kicked out a window and then hit by a lightsaber once and that's the end of the fight for him. In the same way Vader gets hit by a lightsaber once and then finished off by lightning after one last action.
When someone gets hit, it's a hit! Not a scrape.
The problem with KotOR is that it runs on a d20 engine, which really skewers the perception of how fights should play out. (Lot's of standing around in the middle of a room and spinning swords until someone drops.) And the comics are perhaps even worse with their bland dialogs set to static poses that fail to evoke a sense of dynamic motion. But now that I think of it narrative fights in the style of the movies set in the KotOR environment would actually make that setting even more awesome. It requires some rethinking of how KotOR fights should look like, but I concede that dramatic narrative combat would be a clear improvement.
I guess Harm kind of does that? I think I need some help really grasping this.
So the countdown is not health, harm is not an injury, and armor is not bulletproof material? Rather the countdown represents under how much pressure you are and harm means that you suffer a mishap in combat?
For example, my Jedi has an ability to get 2-armor when holding a lightsaber because it can deflect blasters. (Like a naked battlebabe.) I fail a roll and suffer 3-harm from a blaster carbine, which gets reduced to 1-harm. Now I have to roll+1 for the result.
If I get a 6- then my countdown goes down but the harm is reduced by -1 from,1 to 0, and I also stumble, drop the blaster in my other hand, or something of that kind.
If I get a 7-9 my countdown goes down by the amount of harm and I suffer one of the minor mishaps.
If I get a 10+ my countdown goes down by +1 for a total of 2, or my countdown goes down by 1 and I am out of the fight, or my countdown goes down by 1 and I suffer two minor mishaps.
In eiher case I could still say I was not actually hit by a blaster, but this was really close and a foreshadowing that I am starting to lose this fight. If I lost only my first two segments on the countdown my situation is not yet dire and will return back to normal after a while. If I lost my third segment, then I am now having a big bullseye painted on my back.
When I lose my fourth segment, I have actually been hit and suffered an injury. Now the GM is free to throw more harm at me any time I do something that wouldn't be good for an injured person. But instead of my countdown going down any further (by whatever amount) I can now sacrifice body parts to stay at my curent number of segments by taking debilities.
Did I get this right?
So to use a famous example, when Vader threw all that junk at Luke and threw him out the window, Luke was now down two segments on his countdown. He tries again to go agro on Vader and fails his roll, getting 4-harm from the the lightsaber in return. He makes his suffer harm roll and gets a 10+, but knowing that losing 5 segments would kill him he sacrifices his hand instead. Since it's a 10+ the GM still gets to heap some more complications on him and decides the Luke is out of the fight.
Sounds like it could be fun, though it probably takes a bit of practice to resolve that smooth and fluidly in an actual situation. But I am still worried that this might be a bit too "lethal", even though it looks like death only happens if someone at the table decides that it does. The problem I see is that every move has the risk of failure, which can lead to suffering harm. And in an action scene with a lot of different moves, that is going to translate to a good number of failed rolls.
Now one solution is for the GM to decide to rarely use dealing harm as a consequence of failed rolls and go with adding complications instead. And I guess that's actually a perfect match for Star Wars. :smallamused:
But would that be fun at the table? I'm not sure about the intention behind AW, but I think in a Star Wars game, action scenes should be long and elaborate affairs. Maybe increasing the first two segments that can return of their own if the characters make it out of the tight spot up to four? Or would this be too much or unnecessary? I have to say I really like the idea of a tension meter that can go cool down to normal if nobody gets seriously hurt.
And now I am getting what was meant by the GMs presentation being vital. Chosing whether it is appropriate for the style of the setting to deal harm or introduce complications as a consequence of failed rolls will lead to drastically different outcomes of a scene, even one as straightforward as a simple fight scene. I have full controll over whether the heroes will be crushed to a paste or turn into a hilariously preposterous Indiana Jones action scene.
That thought really takes some getting used to. The notion of a disinterested arbiter completely disintegrates in that context.
And that also explains why such a big deal is being made about the Principles. When you decide what happens to the heroes on a whim in the heat of the moment, you really need a set of very strong guidelines what kinds of outcomes are appropriate for the setting and tone of the campaign.
*mindblown*
Actana
2017-07-07, 04:27 PM
PbtA games do take a bit of getting used to conceptually, and you're absolutely on point with how the Principles, Agenda and GM presentation mean everything. The difficulty of the game can be adjusted on the fly with making "softer" moves rather than harder that deal actual damage. It's a line that needs to be balanced, and can take a while to get used to. Personally, I'm always a larger fan of heaping on complications and making the players squirm, only occasionally dealing damage. It keeps the tension up.
Many games do damage a lot differently. For a few examples in addition to your AW one:
Uncharted Worlds has a "Brace for Impact" move that triggers each time a character takes damage. On a success they take lower tier wounds, and effective armor increases that roll (if they're really lucky they take -2 tiers). On a fail they take a wound that's a tier higher. There are also debilities which are narrative tags which affect things.
Monster of the Week has a 7 box wound track, the first 4 are superficial and the 3 latter significant. However, every time you take the "Kick Ass" move, you also take damage yourself (if it makes sense at all). Superficial wounds heal quickly, but significant ones last for longer. Enemies generally deal 3-5 damage at a time.
Fellowship uses a method where instead of having any kinds of wounds category. Instead, when you take damage, you damage your stats and whenever you have to roll them, you roll 3d6 and take the two lowest. You also have NPC companions with you, whose bonds and stats they have can be damaged to prevent damage to you.
The Sprawl uses a similar countdown clock as wounds that you went through there briefly. Can't remember much of the specifics though.
JBPuffin
2017-07-07, 05:05 PM
Sounds like it could be fun, though it probably takes a bit of practice to resolve that smooth and fluidly in an actual situation. But I am still worried that this might be a bit too "lethal", even though it looks like death only happens if someone at the table decides that it does. The problem I see is that every move has the risk of failure, which can lead to suffering harm. And in an action scene with a lot of different moves, that is going to translate to a good number of failed rolls.
Now one solution is for the GM to decide to rarely use dealing harm as a consequence of failed rolls and go with adding complications instead. And I guess that's actually a perfect match for Star Wars. :smallamused:
But would that be fun at the table? I'm not sure about the intention behind AW, but I think in a Star Wars game, action scenes should be long and elaborate affairs. Maybe increasing the first two segments that can return of their own if the characters make it out of the tight spot up to four? Or would this be too much or unnecessary? I have to say I really like the idea of a tension meter that can go cool down to normal if nobody gets seriously hurt.
A couple of options here:
a) Lower the success #. You could make it so moves only fail on a 4- or 5- instead, meaning success is more attainable.
b) Reconsider how failure = back-and-forth for both sides. Sometimes damage is the attacker's success, sometimes it's the defender's failure, and the reverse is true for successful blocking. Darth Vader not killing Luke when he threw him out the window might be Vader rolling lower on his Force Push than he liked, or Luke rolling well on some sort of reactionary defense. It might have been much worse had the roll gone more in Vader's favor...
c) Alter the available moves. Basically a, but more in-depth; you can reduce the damage dealt by moves, or introduce more armor or other defenses.
d) What you said about recovery - making it easier to negate or recover from damage already dealt is an easy way to reduce the consequences of Harm.
Which is best depends on the way everyone is supposed to be bad-ass; each of the above reflects some way in which everyone is awesome, but which one you use depends on if you see Star Wars as focusing on not taking hits or taking them but dealing better than most mortals.
Edit: Oh yeah, the last thing a PbtA Arbiter is supposed to be is disinterested. I think they're actually supposed to be more interested - you have to have an investment in every character, every subplot, to keep the tone on track and follow through. It's more of a workout than a mile jog.
I guess this is something that probably has to be figured out through playtest. It doesn't seem like something you can calculate. But if a tested variant turns out too make things too difficult for the players, they are only going to have some luck without any of their heroes dying because of it. That's really nice. :smallbiggrin:
It makes me confident not to worry about this too much in advance and just wait and see how that will turn out.
When looking up opinions on Uncharted Worlds and comparing it to what I am deciphering in Apocalypse World, AW does somehow seem "tidier".
UW seems to be big on customizable equipment. Which is definitly a sci-fi thing and if I would be running a cyberpunk campaign I would type whole catalogs of weapons and gadgets. But as I mentioned before, for Star Wars such things feel like an unnecessary distraction to me. "Blaster", "starfighter", and "astromech droid" are the highest degree of specificity you normally get. There are many different models, but they are treated as purely cosmetic and behave identically. Boba Fett has some gadgets but these also come down to "rocket launcher" and "grapling hook".While you can imagine Boba Fett having his own workshop or Chewbacca spending hours browsing stores in spaceports for new fancy upgrades, I feel that this is not something that should take up table time.
And as I mentioned, Star Wars doesn't actually do money. Equipment is something basic you either already have, or something special that is "acquired" during the adventure rather than baught in a store. And I think equipment heavy systems have to include a scarcity of resources to spend in the most efficient way.
The other thing is playbooks being replaced by a combination of two modular backgrounds. I get how this is a very nice step towards a more freeform character creation that leads to more multi-faceted characters. However, I think Star Wars, more than possibly any other setting, is a work fundamentally based around the use of recognizable archetypes. What makes Star Wars so accessible to global audience despite its really outlandish setting, is that almost anything you see in it is something that you instantly recognize as being a slightly reskinned version of something you've seen a million times before. Nothing needs to be explained because everyone instanly understands Space Nazis, Pirate Taverns, and Evil Sorcerers. And I think to evoke the style and spirit of Star Wars in an RPG, you want to really heavily make use of archetypes for both villains and heroes. For a Star Wars game, I regard the inflexibility and sameness of classes as an actually very beneficial device.
Not only are characters not well rounded, their abilities also do not reflect their past history. In the movies, Luke does never draw on any of his skills from his life as a farmer. Unless you count the idea that flying a civilian ultralight plane teaches you everything you know to do awesome dogfighting in a starfighter against elite veteran pilots. Leia never uses any of her connections or diplomatic skills and Han and Chewbacca don't have any shred of information about them before that story with Jabbba's cargo right before Luke meets them. They know Lando, but that's it.
The playbooks in Apocalypse World are not as easily recognizable and familiar, but once you have figured out what the author was thinking of you do remember having encountered them many times before.
Adapting DW classes is easy, but I see how making 8 or 12 playbooks in the AW style would be a considerable amount of work. But on the upside, each class has only six moves, many of which can simply be adding a different attribute to certain rolls. Barter and gangs don't seem really applicable for Star Wars, but they probably need something else to replace them with.
I see some real merits in using AW classes instead of DW ones, and the AW harm system, now that I know enough of the system to understand what AW is trying to explain to me. But I am not sure if UW is the way to go to take it into a Star Wars direction. It also doesn't include psychic powers as a base for the Force, so that's something you have to make up yourself either way. (And by "you" I mean "I".)
I'm not convinced that it's worth investing more money into for the more classic movie style of Star Wars adventures I am aiming for. Now on the other hand for a Clone Wars style campaign that would be a completely different story. I think such a campaign would really shine with a big fancy weapons and gadgets catalog.
Actana
2017-07-07, 05:37 PM
The equipment list isn't as bad or necessarily as complicated or involved as it seems. Most of these things are created at the start, and most things you find will only be level 1 or 2 standard items which everyone will have (eg, "you find a blaster. It has the... Uhh... Laser tag. It's a class 1 weapon." That's more than enough detail for the system for regular things. It's when you want to get really fancy do you bring out more tags, with special equipment). It does open up the option for the gun/tech nut characters to have their own "signature weapon" that they have and like to use, certainly something a Mandalorian would care about for example. But you're rather on point with the de-emphasis on equipment in general. Shopping for items isn't a big emphasis in UW though. You have what you have, and if you absolutely need something you can perhaps trade for it, but even then those needs aren't a biggest deal for the system (though one might say that buying spaceship parts was a big deal in one of the movies, but I wouldn't dare suggest that we care or want to talk about that movie). Overall, it's a taste thing and I can definitely accept anyone thinking it's not the best fit. I just happen to like the system, and think it's one of the best parts of UW.
As for the rest, you make compelling arguments. I'd go through them more thoroughly, but it's late and I'm tired.
That said, if you haven't already perhaps it might be time to take another look at the Star Wars hack that was presented earlier? I noticed a few editing errors in the newest copy, but it does have some more or less finished basic moves and playbooks to pursue. They should give an idea of what you might want to do with the archetypes.
Somehow that Omega Edition link slipped past me. It has some really weird things, like keeping Special Moves and having an odd set of abilities.
But the weapons and moves are looking pretty good and I assume space ships work very similar to the idea I had. I assume Bonds work as in Dungeon World?
Somehow that Omega Edition link slipped past me. It has some really weird things, like keeping Special Moves and having an odd set of abilities.
But the weapons and moves are looking pretty good and I assume space ships work very similar to the idea I had. I assume Bonds work as in Dungeon World?
Any idea how credits are meant to work? Looks like it simply represents an indeterminate but considerable amount of money. Though it doesn't say what you can use it for other than bribes.
Actana
2017-07-08, 03:59 AM
Bonds seem to be pretty much DW bonds as far as I can tell. Other mechanics seem very much lifted from other hacks as well. This tends to be a problem with these kinds of short form hacks which are a list of moves and playbooks - there's very little explaining how things work or why, assuming there will be some discourse at their source on the inspiration for the mechanics. For example, there's no clear idea of what the stats represent beyond what we can infer from the moves.
There are a few oddities too. I'm not a fan, for example, of how you have both a Suffer Wounds move whenever you take damage, but at the same time you take damage whenever you Go In Blazing, leading to lots of rolling. The Go In Blazing move has a bit of weirdness in its newest incarnation as well, with the 10+ and 7-9 being almost the same, the former having a single additional thing to choose from (that being not suffering any harm). If having those options is what one would want I'd rather have the full list on both results, choosing one of them on a 7-9 and two on a 10+. Would need to see some more refinement, in my view.
Many of the experience gaining actions are also very broad, perhaps too much so. I can see levelling up happening a bit too much in the system.
That said, it's good for inspiration and seeing what other people have done for the moves and playbooks. Some especially good things I like are the "when you open up to someone", which I feel are rather flavorful, and the advancement that allows you to pick moves from other playbooks.
I really like the Force in this one. Sacrificing harm to get 3 force points seems like a great way to keep Jedi from throwing their Force Powers left and right. Or don't take the harm and use the Dark Side instead. That's brilliant.
Also, a really solid choice of classes. The moves, advancement options, and equipment look like something I might use with only some changes. Just changing the attributes and sources of XP, and I think this should be really close to what I want.
Turning the countdown into Vitality and Wounds also looks like a nice way to make the mechanic more accessible to new players (and GMs :smalltongue:). Though I think Vitality is a bad term as it still implies health. Maybe go with something like Stamina.
The Basic Moves so indeed look somewhat off. I guess going with the AW standards might be a better idea. And I don't think I want to bother with unlocking advanced 12+ results. Those seem too overblown to me.
Some more thoughts on attributes
I really like the idea from WEG to make piloting and machine use attributes instead of extra skills. Seemigly all heroes in Star Wars have some basic flying skills like driving a car. Using and repairing machines also seems to be common everyday knowledge. If a character isn't good at it, that can easily be represented by a negative modifier.
But since there is very little brute force ever being shown, aside from Chewbacca throwing stormtroopers once or twice, splitting strength and dexterity seems a bit pointless. A single Physique score should work well enough for all offensive and endurance activities. I can't really think of any glass cannon characters in Star Wars. If you're a great shot, you're also tough.
Which leaves the mental attributes of characters. Neither the D&D nor the WEG seem like really good fits. To keep the total attributes at 5, I think I'd go with Cunning and Awareness. Cunning being basically intelligence, but Awareness combining wisdom and charisma.
So the attributes would be:
PHY Physique
CNG Cunning
AWR Awareness
PLT Piloting
MEC Mechanical
There are a few oddities too. I'm not a fan, for example, of how you have both a Suffer Wounds move whenever you take damage, but at the same time you take damage whenever you Go In Blazing, leading to lots of rolling. The Go In Blazing move has a bit of weirdness in its newest incarnation as well, with the 10+ and 7-9 being almost the same, the former having a single additional thing to choose from (that being not suffering any harm). If having those options is what one would want I'd rather have the full list on both results, choosing one of them on a 7-9 and two on a 10+. Would need to see some more refinement, in my view.
It really doesn't help either that there is no indication of why there are two almost identical files.
The version with pick 2 or 1 from the single list is matching AW. With the difference that you get to pick one less in both cases.
The other version lets you pick only one, but on a 10+ you also have the option to suffer no harm, while you lose the option to suffer -1 harm on a 7-9. The later version leans more to extremes, which is less predictable, which is generally bad for players in all systems.
But overall, having spend a good amount of time with it, Omega Edition is much better than the various individual Star Wars World files I had seen before. It looks really solid with the context of reading AW.
Suffer Wounds being an additional move after having been hit from Go In Blazing or Stand in Defense is straight from AW. First you determine how much damage you take. Suffer Wounds adds some additional bad things happening to you on top of that, if you roll badly.
Omega Edition is actually more generous as you only get those additional effects when you take wound points but not when you take vitality points. In AW it's any time you take damage.
Boss Fights
I've been looking at the optional Battle Moves in AW, and while I don't understand them, I am intrigued by Incidental and Concentrated Fire and the Battle Countdown. The Battle Countdown basically gives the players three rounds of actions (everyone gets to do one thing) during which everybody only deals 0 or 1 harm. After everyone had three moves or did something to escalate the fight, the gloves come off and it's normal damage. This gives some opportunity to get everyone in favorable positions (or end up getting caught in a worse position) before people start getting taken out of action.
Which actually matches quite well how lightsaber fights are shown in the movies. First there's mostly talking and non-threatening moves, and then it's folowed by serious beatings. First Luke and Vader have some fencing time in the freezing chamber without anyone making any actual progress. Then they separate and meet again in the room with the window and ledge where Luke gets beaten up. Then on the Death Star Luke first only defends buying time. Then Vader searches his thoughts and then they really start to fight. Or Obi-Wan and Anakin first fight in the control room with no success, but then destroy the shield and go fight outside in the lava.
You can also apply the same to space battles.
I wouldn't use it to fight normal stormtroopers or tie fighters, but for major battles it seems like a neat way to make things more dramatic and longer lasting.
Actana
2017-07-10, 12:24 PM
It really doesn't help either that there is no indication of why there are two almost identical files.
The version with pick 2 or 1 from the single list is matching AW. With the difference that you get to pick one less in both cases.
The other version lets you pick only one, but on a 10+ you also have the option to suffer no harm, while you lose the option to suffer -1 harm on a 7-9. The later version leans more to extremes, which is less predictable, which is generally bad for players in all systems.
But overall, having spend a good amount of time with it, Omega Edition is much better than the various individual Star Wars World files I had seen before. It looks really solid with the context of reading AW.
Suffer Wounds being an additional move after having been hit from Go In Blazing or Stand in Defense is straight from AW. First you determine how much damage you take. Suffer Wounds adds some additional bad things happening to you on top of that, if you roll badly.
Omega Edition is actually more generous as you only get those additional effects when you take wound points but not when you take vitality points. In AW it's any time you take damage.
I presume the additional versions are updates of some sort. Probably detailed more in some forum where it was originally developed. I do believe the individual files that were linked earlier are the same game but in an earlier version. There's a Delta and Gamma version in the folder above the Omega one as well, if you're interested in how the game has changed. Didn't take a big look at them myself, going straight to the latest version.
As for Suffer Wounds, yeah, it is from AW, but I'm still not a huge fan of it in theory at least. That said, it might differ in practice. I'm more used to having "deal damage, take damage" or "roll on suffering damage" moves, not both at the same time. Though in the end I'll reserve any final judgement to whenever I actually get a chance to play AW though, or a game that does the same.
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