A psion taking over the modern Earth. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

AvatarVecna

2017-07-04, 04:47 PM

its not an argument its RAW from D20 Modern iirc.

1) I'm pretty sure D20 Modern isn't exactly official 3.5 material, but rather its own system that is compatible with 3.5 enough that they can be mixed.

2) Even if it turns out to be 1PP 3.5 material, 16d8 feel like it's kinda low for some effects closer to the initial blast. The minimum damage is low enough that a particularly tough Barbarian 1 could still be conscious after taking it to the face, the average blast is barely enough to blow through a 6 inch wooden wall. Just in general, the idea that a nuclear detonation in somebody's face does around the same damage as two bundles of dynamite feels weird.

EDIT: From some quick research into differences between the games, it looks like D20 Modern/Future characters are generally less capable/tough than 3.5 characters of the same level, so 16d8 is probably appropriate for a game where HP don't advance into the hundreds so quickly...and their walls are probably easier to destroy as well.

Tainted_Scholar

2017-07-04, 04:48 PM

Aren't you one of the guys who argues that a nuke only does 16d8 damage or something?

So? That doesn't change anything.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 04:51 PM

1) I'm pretty sure D20 Modern isn't exactly official 3.5 material, but rather its own system that is compatible with 3.5 enough that they can be mixed.

It's easier to use D20 Modern's rules than trying to figure out how much damage a nuke can do.

2) Even if it turns out to be 1PP 3.5 material, 16d8 feel like it's kinda low for some effects closer to the initial blast. The minimum damage is low enough that a particularly tough Barbarian 1 could still be conscious after taking it to the face,

Pretty unlikely, but that Barbarian is easily superhuman.

the average blast is barely enough to blow through a 6 inch wooden wall.

Object's have way to much HP; you can drop a large tree from orbit into a volcano and will survive around 7 rounds or so in the crater. Edit: On average rolls, anyway.

Just in general, the idea that a nuclear detonation in somebody's face does around the same damage as two bundles of dynamite feels weird.

D&D 3.5's damage values are stranger all around, but I get what you're saying. Edit: HP is weird too.

Tainted_Scholar

2017-07-04, 04:53 PM

1) I'm pretty sure D20 Modern isn't exactly official 3.5 material, but rather its own system that is compatible with 3.5 enough that they can be mixed.

2) Even if it turns out to be 1PP 3.5 material, 16d8 feel like it's kinda low for some effects closer to the initial blast. The minimum damage is low enough that a particularly tough Barbarian 1 could still be conscious after taking it to the face, the average blast is barely enough to blow through a 6 inch wooden wall. Just in general, the idea that a nuclear detonation in somebody's face does around the same damage as two bundles of dynamite feels weird.

1. It's the best we've got for determining Nuke Damage in 3.5.

2. Damage doesn't scale linearly in 3.5, a Light Crossbow does 1d8 damage and a Ballista does 3d8 damage.

3. Objects are wonky too, Tree's can survive being submerged in lava, a pick can't actually break stone, guns can't shoot through wooden doors, etc.

AvatarVecna

2017-07-04, 04:55 PM

It's easier to use D20 Modern's rules than trying to figure out how much damage a nuke can do.

Pretty unlikely, but that Barbarian is easily superhuman.

Object's have way to much HP; you can drop a large tree from orbit into a volcano and will survive around 7 rounds or so in the crater.

D&D 3.5's damage values are stranger all around, but I get what you're saying.

Real quick, I edited something new into that post, but I'll post it here as well: from some quick research into the differences between 3.X and Modern, it looks like characters in Modern tend to be significantly less capable than a 3.5 character of the same level, to make dangers more relevant I imagine. At a guess, I would assume Modern has something similar going on with object HP. From there, figuring out what a nuke does in 3.5 (via converting object to object, so that it's still equally effective at blowing down buildings), we can figure out about how big a boom we're talking here.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 04:56 PM

Real quick, I edited something new into that post, but I'll post it here as well: from some quick research into the differences between 3.X and Modern, it looks like characters in Modern tend to be significantly less capable than a 3.5 character of the same level, to make dangers more relevant I imagine. At a guess, I would assume Modern has something similar going on with object HP. From there, figuring out what a nuke does in 3.5 (via converting object to object, so that it's still equally effective at blowing down buildings), we can figure out about how big a boom we're talking here.

The main difference in D20 Modern is the lack of magic items, and stricter Mass Damage rules.

I'm not sure about the object rules.

AvatarVecna

2017-07-04, 05:15 PM

The main difference in D20 Modern is the lack of magic items, and stricter Mass Damage rules.

I'm not sure about the object rules.

Wood has hardness 5 and 10 HP/inch...which lines up with the 3.5 version of a 6 in wooden wall having 60 HP and 5 Hardness. D20 Modern Concrete and Steel are comparable to 3.5 stone and iron. Some additional online research indicates that yes, it deals 16d8 damage...ship-scale damage, has has some kinda damage scaling.

The object rules are the same, though, so that part of modern is still kinda wonky. But if a nuke deals the x10 damage that taking it from ship-scale to character-scale says, as the talk I've seen online indicates, than ~160d6 is probably fine as far as nuke damage goes; you'd have to be pretty high level to survive a blast like that, and it'll tear through most walls that aren't steel 3 ft thick (and has a decent chance of getting through those).

TheYell

2017-07-04, 05:18 PM

I think a psion created the nuclear warhead argument as a diversion.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 05:18 PM

Wood has hardness 5 and 10 HP/inch...which lines up with the 3.5 version of a 6 in wooden wall having 60 HP and 5 Hardness. D20 Modern Concrete and Steel are comparable to 3.5 stone and iron. Some additional online research indicates that yes, it deals 16d8 damage...ship-scale damage, has has some kinda damage scaling.

The object rules are the same, though, so that part of modern is still kinda wonky. But if a nuke deals the x10 damage that taking it from ship-scale to character-scale says, as the talk I've seen online indicates, than ~160d6 is probably fine as far as nuke damage goes; you'd have to be pretty high level to survive a blast like that, and it'll tear through most walls that aren't steel 3 ft thick (and has a decent chance of getting through those).

Actually, I could never find a rule that states that ship weapons do x10 to characters.

D20 Future Tech implies that they do normal damage, under the rules about air strikes/orbital bombarments.

I actually made a thread about it, if you're curious. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?521056-D20-Modern-Future-Ship-Weapons-Deal-x10-Damage-to-Characters)

Tainted_Scholar

2017-07-04, 05:21 PM

D20 Future Tech implies that they do normal damage, under the rules about air strikes/orbital bombarments.

It doesn't imply, it outright states that the weapon does normal damage.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 05:23 PM

It doesn't imply, it outright states that the weapon does normal damage.

Right, I didn't check the rules in question. Thanks for the clarification.

Edit: I believe the x10 to characters from ship weapons rule is from Star Wars D20.

AvatarVecna

2017-07-04, 05:26 PM

Actually, I could never find a rule that states that ship weapons do x10 to characters.

D20 Future Tech implies that they do normal damage, under the rules about air strikes/orbital bombarments.

I actually made a thread about it, if you're curious. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?521056-D20-Modern-Future-Ship-Weapons-Deal-x10-Damage-to-Characters)

I can at least confirm that the Serenity RPG system has similar rules for cross-scale damage, mostly because they tried to keep everything down to a few dice. But yeah, I'm looking through both the Core rulebook and the Future Tech book and I'm not seeing anything. I'm off in serach of a reference I saw to a 116d6 nuke, but if that ends up not existing either, that's really weird and kinda stupid. I don't have an issue with a high-level character who can survive a nuke to the face (I fully agree that D&D characters are quite superhuman compared to your average joe, in general), but the fact that even the walls in D&D world (and D20 Modern world) are pretty much nuke-proof kinda makes nukes seem pretty lame.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 05:27 PM

I can at least confirm that the Serenity RPG system has similar rules for cross-scale damage, mostly because they tried to keep everything down to a few dice. But yeah, I'm looking through both the Core rulebook and the Future Tech book and I'm not seeing anything. I'm off in serach of a reference I saw to a 116d6 nuke, but if that ends up not existing either, that's really weird and kinda stupid. I don't have an issue with a high-level character who can survive a nuke to the face (I fully agree that D&D characters are quite superhuman compared to your average joe, in general), but the fact that even the walls in D&D world (and D20 Modern world) are pretty much nuke-proof kinda makes nukes seem pretty lame.

I agree nuke-proof walls are kinda silly. :smallsigh:

lord_khaine

2017-07-04, 05:27 PM

It is much easier for the Telepath to do it the diplomatic way than any other class simply due to how the Thrallherd PrC works.

No its not, because you dont have any control over who becomes Thralls.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 05:29 PM

No its not, because you dont have any control over who becomes Thralls.

Those who answer a thrallherd’s call are not referred to as cohorts and followers, but rather as thralls and believers, respectively. They do not appear because they admire the character and want to serve her, but because a hidden psychic resonance connects the thrallherd and her servants.

That does make it sound like you have a fair degree of control over them.

Tainted_Scholar

2017-07-04, 05:29 PM

I don't have an issue with a high-level character who can survive a nuke to the face (I fully agree that D&D characters are quite superhuman compared to your average joe, in general), but the fact that even the walls in D&D world (and D20 Modern world) are pretty much nuke-proof kinda makes nukes seem pretty lame.

You need to look at a different way, it's not that the nukes are lame, it's just that the walls are really, really hardcore.:smallcool:

In all seriousness though, this is just another case of the object rules being borked.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 05:31 PM

You need to look at a different way, it's not that the nukes are lame, it's just that the walls are really, really hardcore.:smallcool:

I think walls are pretty cool objects, eh, shrug off nukes, they aren't afraid of anything.

In all seriousness though, this is just another case of the object rules being borked.

QFT.

The Glyphstone

2017-07-04, 05:33 PM

No its not, because you dont have any control over who becomes Thralls.

No, but it's also fairly easy (assuming you are super Evil) to simply kill off 'useless' thralls and wait for the guaranteed replacements in 24 hours. Rinse and repeat until you have a pool of useful minions, or until the police arrest you for being the most prolific serial killer of all time.

As far as the topic goes, Telepathy is obviously one of the stronger contenders. But Metacreativity could also have a distinct advantage via Psionic Minor/Major Creation and Psionic Fabricate via economic dominance of the world.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 05:37 PM

No, but it's also fairly easy (assuming you are super Evil) to simply kill off 'useless' thralls and wait for the guaranteed replacements in 24 hours. Rinse and repeat until you have a pool of useful minions, or until the police arrest you for being the most prolific serial killer of all time.

If you take that route, you'd have to grow a twirly mustache; take Psychoportive Shelter to sleep safely at night.

As far as the topic goes, Telepathy is obviously one of the stronger contenders. But Metacreativity could also have a distinct advantage via Psionic Minor/Major Creation and Psionic Fabricate via economic dominance of the world.

Shame too, otherwise you'd could basically be an psychic Lex Luthor.

AvatarVecna

2017-07-04, 05:45 PM

That does make it sound like you have a fair degree of control over them.

Indeed. Ignoring that you can just dismiss/kill thralls and believers in the name of {whatever it is your cult believes in}, just having lots of people believe in you is great, especially when you actually do have magic powers to show off. You have actual magic abilities that you can perform, no tricks up your sleeve because you can do this shirtless, no wires to help you fly, because you can just soar off into the sky unassisted.

You need to look at a different way, it's not that the nukes are lame, it's just that the walls are really, really hardcore.:smallcool:

In all seriousness though, this is just another case of the object rules being borked.

Yup. Near as I can tell, only thing keeping nukes un-lame in Modern is the massive damage rules. Technically, 3.5's got them too, but because by the time they're usually relevant, most characters are hitting hard enough to force that kind of save on the enemies each round (and vice versa), most tables chuck 'em out - not because the save is hard, but because having to make a DC 15 Fort save at that point is almost completely trivial. And considering that nukes apparently allow a Reflex save...hmm...what's the DC on that save? Still looking for the Orbital Bombardment rules.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 05:49 PM

Indeed. Ignoring that you can just dismiss/kill thralls and believers in the name of {whatever it is your cult believes in}, just having lots of people believe in you is great, especially when you actually do have magic powers to show off. You have actual magic abilities that you can perform, no tricks up your sleeve because you can do this shirtless, no wires to help you fly, because you can just soar off into the sky unassisted.

Sounds like a plan.

Yup. Near as I can tell, only thing keeping nukes un-lame in Modern is the massive damage rules. Technically, 3.5's got them too, but because by the time they're usually relevant, most characters are hitting hard enough to force that kind of save on the enemies each round (and vice versa), most tables chuck 'em out - not because the save is hard, but because having to make a DC 15 Fort save at that point is almost completely trivial. And considering that nukes apparently allow a Reflex save...hmm...what's the DC on that save? Still looking for the Orbital Bombardment rules.

DC 15 reflex save for half damage.

The rules for orbital bombardment are on pg. 94 of D20 Modern Future Tech.

Tainted_Scholar

2017-07-04, 05:54 PM

Yup. Near as I can tell, only thing keeping nukes un-lame in Modern is the massive damage rules. Technically, 3.5's got them too, but because by the time they're usually relevant, most characters are hitting hard enough to force that kind of save on the enemies each round (and vice versa), most tables chuck 'em out - not because the save is hard, but because having to make a DC 15 Fort save at that point is almost completely trivial.

For the longest time I thought that Massive Damage was a variant rule.

AvatarVecna

2017-07-04, 06:08 PM

DC 15 reflex save for half damage.

The rules for orbital bombardment are on pg. 94 of D20 Modern Future Tech.

*facepalm*

I'm not sure why I'm not surprised that the average person has a 70% chance of making the save and taking half damage. Let's see the odds on a 1st lvl Barbarian surviving if they're specifically built for it.

Water Halfling Barbarian 1
Stats (32 pb, pre-adjustment): 8/18/18/8/8/8
Stats (w/ adjustment): 6/20/20/4/8/8
Flaws: Pathetic (Intelligence)/Pathetic (Intelligence)
Feats: Lightning Reflexes/Toughness/Toughness

Hit Points: 23
Fort Save: +7
Ref Save: +8

So, Conan the Vertically-Challenged Durrbarian here takes a nuke to the face. He has a 70% chance of making the save (taking half damage) and 30% chance of not making the save (sucks to be him). This becomes 80%/20% if he can use Cover for an additional +2, but this is already stupid enough. So if he fails the save, he take 16d8, and is basically dead 100% of the time, so that's no good. If he makes the save, though, he takes half of 16d8, giving him a 24.08% chance of surviving the nuke if he makes the save.

So, odds of surviving the nuke overall are ~17% for this 1st lvl character.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 06:12 PM

*facepalm*

I'm not sure why I'm not surprised that the average person has a 70% chance of making the save and taking half damage. Let's see the odds on a 1st lvl Barbarian surviving if they're specifically built for it.

Water Halfling Barbarian 1
Stats (32 pb, pre-adjustment): 8/18/18/8/8/8
Stats (w/ adjustment): 6/20/20/4/8/8
Flaws: Pathetic (Intelligence)/Pathetic (Intelligence)
Feats: Lightning Reflexes/Toughness/Toughness

Hit Points: 23
Fort Save: +7
Ref Save: +8

So, Conan the Vertically-Challenged Durrbarian here takes a nuke to the face. He has a 70% chance of making the save (taking half damage) and 30% chance of not making the save (sucks to be him). This becomes 80%/20% if he can use Cover for an additional +2, but this is already stupid enough. So if he fails the save, he take 16d8, and is basically dead 100% of the time, so that's no good. If he makes the save, though, he takes half of 16d8, giving him a 24.08% chance of surviving the nuke if he makes the save.

So, odds of surviving the nuke overall are ~17% for this 1st lvl character.

I bet you could build a 2nd level Rogue that could avoid the damage completely.

I like the Nuke Survivor, though. :smallsmile:

Tainted_Scholar

2017-07-04, 06:16 PM

*facepalm*

I'm not sure why I'm not surprised that the average person has a 70% chance of making the save and taking half damage. Let's see the odds on a 1st lvl Barbarian surviving if they're specifically built for it.

Water Halfling Barbarian 1
Stats (32 pb, pre-adjustment): 8/18/18/8/8/8
Stats (w/ adjustment): 6/20/20/4/8/8
Flaws: Pathetic (Intelligence)/Pathetic (Intelligence)
Feats: Lightning Reflexes/Toughness/Toughness

Hit Points: 23
Fort Save: +7
Ref Save: +8

So, Conan the Vertically-Challenged Durrbarian here takes a nuke to the face. He has a 70% chance of making the save (taking half damage) and 30% chance of not making the save (sucks to be him). This becomes 80%/20% if he can use Cover for an additional +2, but this is already stupid enough. So if he fails the save, he take 16d8, and is basically dead 100% of the time, so that's no good. If he makes the save, though, he takes half of 16d8, giving him a 24.08% chance of surviving the nuke if he makes the save.

So, odds of surviving the nuke overall are ~17% for this 1st lvl character.

If you think that's bad, FTL projectiles have the exact same reflex save for half. Meaning that a 2nd level Rouge can easily dodge an artillery shell moving faster than the speed of light.

icefractal

2017-07-04, 06:19 PM

I think you wouldn't even want to be a Thrallherd - it creates effectively a huge arrow pointing to you if people ever figure out what's going on, which you can't turn off. And proper use of Telepathy would be able to get you anything Thrallherd could. Besides, the main feature (the better cohorts) won't even really apply, because I don't think that level reliably correlates with power/wealth in modern earth. Now if it let your cohorts be Psionic too, then hell yes, take it.

In 3.5, you would just want to go straight Psion probably. Maybe Erudite, but you'd have to research any powers you wanted yourself.

In PF, Wilder is a contender, since it has better save DCs and can gain strategic flexibility by using Psychic Reformation (no XP cost in PF version), and because the Surge downsides aren't as bad. Delayed access to those Telepath powers would hurt though.

How early can this happen? Let's take a look:

L1 - No, unless you were someone who would have already been able to achieve great power without the psionics.

L3 - Maybe, but probably not and it would be risky as hell. You have the basic tools like Compelling Voice and Read Thoughts, but your DCs are far from unbeatable and you don't have much defensive measures yet if things go wrong.

L5 - Still a maybe. You're a bit safer than at L3, and you have a couple new tools, but nothing big has changed.

L7 - Now we're talking. 4th level powers have all the tools to take over the world - Memory Modification, Mind Control, Psychic Reformation, Augured Answer, as well as powers that provide a lot more safety like Fold Space and Wall of Ectoplasm. You also can get some useful discipline powers like Metamorphosis via Expanded Knowledge.
However, you can't do all of this at 7th level, so you might be better off waiting 1-2 more.

L9 - Gets you some important stuff like Mind Probe, Major Ectoplasmic Creation and Planar Travel, and access to Remote Viewing via EK. Not a game changer like L7 was, but makes success more likely.

L11 - Temporal Acceleration is big, and Mind Switch is potentially very useful, although risky. But the biggest thing is that you can get Psychoport via EK.

L13 - You should have already been able to take over the world before this point, I think. But if you did wait you have a somewhat easier time of it. If this is a PF Psion, they can get Genesis via EK and have a demiplane for safety and utility.

L15 - You're slacking if you got this far. Now it should be not only fairly easy but also fairly safe.

L17 - Why the hell haven't you conquered the world yet?

martixy

2017-07-04, 06:21 PM

Me, I cannot under any circumstances fathom a 16d6 damage nuke.

Nuke-proof walls are not the only problem.
An object falling at terminal velocity in air takes 25% more damage than it would from a nuke. That's just silly.

It isn't that the object rules are borked. It's that someone got hit in the head when coming up with this figure.

A low-yield nuke(think 10-20K, ala Hiroshima) at ground zero should easily exceed 200d6 damage, spread in various forms between regular damage, fire and sonic. A hydrogen bomb(in the megatons) or something like Tsar Bomba should clear 1000d6. Frankly these are probably conservative estimates too.

This also drastically reduces the number of creatures who can take one to the face and walk away.

Humans tend to underestimate the magnitude of events of such scales - it simply isn't relatable to everyday life for intuition to offer any legitimate answers.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 06:27 PM

AvatarVecna

2017-07-04, 06:37 PM

I bet you could build a 2nd level Rogue that could avoid the damage completely.

I like the Nuke Survivor, though. :smallsmile:

Oh yeah, it's ridiculously easy for a lvl 2 Rogue. Actually, I'm wondering if we can get the save high enough that it's essentially 100% chance of surviving...

Halfling Rogue 2
20 Dex at lvl 1
Lightning Reflexes, Survivor's Luck (via a Flaw)

+11 Reflex save vs DC 15 with a reroll is 97.75% chance of surviving a nuke. If your DM is willing to let you create traits giving +1 Ref/-1 Fort and +1 Ref/-1 Will (which should be reasonable in most games), this gets bumped to 99.75% chance of succeeding overall, and makes it 10% more likely that you won't need to expend your luck reroll to succeed.

Your next level would be Cleric to pick up the Resistance spell (for another +1 to Reflex) and the Pride Domain (for auto-rerolls on any nat 1), if you're still super-worried about this. :smalltongue:

I should point out that damage/HP doesn't scale linearly in 3.5.

A short sword does 1D6 damage, while falling from orbit deals 20D6. I'm pretty confident that terminal velocity isn't x20 the force of being stabbed with a short sword.

This is almost irrelevant to the example they provided though, even if they're slightly wrong: a nuclear bomb dealing 16d8 (not d6 as they said) deals an average of 72, where falling at terminal velocity deals an average of 70, and on average the nuke will deal 1 point more of damage. Still, that these numbers are even vaguely comparable is bull****.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 06:40 PM

Oh yeah, it's ridiculously easy for a lvl 2 Rogue. Actually, I'm wondering if we can get the save high enough that it's essentially 100% chance of surviving...

Halfling Rogue 2
20 Dex at lvl 1
Lightning Reflexes, Survivor's Luck (via a Flaw)

+11 Reflex save vs DC 15 with a reroll is 97.75% chance of surviving a nuke. If your DM is willing to let you create traits giving +1 Ref/-1 Fort and +1 Ref/-1 Will (which should be reasonable in most games), this gets bumped to 99.75% chance of succeeding overall, and makes it 10% more likely that you won't need to expend your luck reroll to succeed.

Your next level would be Cleric to pick up the Resistance spell (for another +1 to Reflex) and the Pride Domain (for auto-rerolls on any nat 1), if you're still super-worried about this. :smalltongue:

Nice. Pick up Evasion and you're set.

This is almost irrelevant to the example they provided though, even if they're slightly wrong: a nuclear bomb dealing 16d8 (not d6 as they said) deals an average of 72, where falling at terminal velocity deals an average of 70, and on average the nuke will deal 1 point more of damage. Still, that these numbers are even vaguely comparable is bull****.

Well, they do say RAW rarely make sense.

Tainted_Scholar

2017-07-04, 06:41 PM

Me, I cannot under any circumstances fathom a 16d6 damage nuke.

Nuke-proof walls are not the only problem.
An object falling at terminal velocity in air takes 25% more damage than it would from a nuke. That's just silly.

No it doesn't, Average rolls are 72 (Nuke) and 70 (falling), Max rolls are 128 (Nuke) and 120 (falling). Additionally, that's max falling damage period, meaning that falls from orbit are also 20d6.

It isn't that the object rules are borked. It's that someone got hit in the head when coming up with this figure.

A low-yield nuke(think 10-20K, ala Hiroshima) at ground zero should easily exceed 200d6 damage, spread in various forms between regular damage, fire and sonic. A hydrogen bomb(in the megatons) or something like Tsar Bomba should clear 1000d6. Frankly these are probably conservative estimates too.

Do you have any reason for them to do so much damage?

It's important to understand that damage doesn't scale linearly in 3.5. Something that's far more powerful in RL might only do slightly more damage in 3.5. For example, a Light Crossbow does 1d8 while a Ballista does 3d8.

martixy

2017-07-04, 06:42 PM

I should point out that damage/HP doesn't scale linearly in 3.5.

A short sword does 1D6 damage, while falling from orbit deals 20D6. I'm pretty confident that terminal velocity isn't x20 the force of being stabbed with a short sword.

Edit: On average rolls, a nuke deals 72 damage, while falling from orbit deals 65.

Right, 16d8. My bad.

Allow me to point out that energy as a function of distance also does not scale linearly.

Also, damage does not correspond to force. You can't make any point that way.

Also, falling from orbit, if we try to model the event instead of relying on potential RAW dysfunctions, will do much more than falling damage due to re-entry friction, so it cannot be equated to merely impact at terminal velocity.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 06:43 PM

Right, 16d8. My bad.

Allow me to point out that energy as a function of distance also does not scale linearly.

Also, damage does not correspond to force. You can't make any point that way.

Also, falling from orbit, if we try to model the event instead of relying on potential RAW dysfunctions, will do much more than falling damage due to re-entry friction, so it cannot be equated to merely impact at terminal velocity.

Careful, you're killing catgirls. :smalltongue:

AvatarVecna

2017-07-04, 06:44 PM

Nice. Pick up Evasion and you're set.

Di you perhaps not notice this one was Rogue 2? :smalltongue:

EDIT: In any case, Erupt will always be the only nuclear explosion I need in D&D. :smallsmile: A 9th lvl blasting spell that's actually worth casting.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 06:45 PM

Di you perhaps not notice this one was Rogue 2? :smalltongue:

My bad, I read that as Rogue 1. :smallredface:

Not to be confused with the Star Wars movie of the same name.

Tainted_Scholar

2017-07-04, 06:46 PM

EDIT: In any case, Erupt will always be the only nuclear explosion I need in D&D. :smallsmile: A 9th lvl blasting spell that's actually worth casting.

Iceberg is also pretty good.

martixy

2017-07-04, 06:52 PM

Careful, you're killing catgirls. :smalltongue:

I still have only a vague understanding of that particular inside joke.
But I am fully aware of what trying to compare physics to D&D is about. Most times I'm a staunch advocate against it.

The figures themselves were a rough estimate of the energies I know are involved and levels of destruction these devices cause at close ranges.

P.S. Fun fact: Underwater nukes are capable of sinking ships by melting their bottoms, as they are floating on the water.

AvatarVecna

2017-07-04, 06:54 PM

Iceberg is also pretty good.

Indeed. There's advantages and disadvantages to each. Erupt deals flat damage greater than Iceburg's max damage half again, has an area that starts out ~800 times that of Iceburg, offers a Fort save for half instead of a Ref save (making Evasion/Improved Evasion useless, requiring the less common Mettle), sets everything on fire, and causes the area to be incapable of supporting life for a year. Iceburg's advantages are an area where nobody gets a save (which is pretty sweet), and of course, the standard action casting time as opposed to the 1 minute casting time. Yeesh.

Both are really good spells. :smallsmile:

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 06:55 PM

Indeed. There's advantages and disadvantages to each. Erupt deals flat damage greater than Iceburg's max damage half again, has an area that starts out ~800 times that of Iceburg, offers a Fort save for half instead of a Ref save (making Evasion/Improved Evasion useless, requiring the less common Mettle), sets everything on fire, and causes the area to be incapable of supporting life for a year. Iceburg's advantages are an area where nobody gets a save (which is pretty sweet), and of course, the standard action casting time as opposed to the 1 minute casting time. Yeesh.

Both are really good spells. :smallsmile:

The people really close to Iceberg don't get a saving throw, but I'd agree Eruption is better for hitting more targets. Edit: Never mind, you already mentioned that. :smallredface:

Edit: No damage cap on Erupt? Oh, it's from Serpent Kingdoms? That explains everything! :smalltongue:

Nifft

2017-07-04, 06:57 PM

Nukes are silly.

Let's not use them.

=== === ===

Back to taking over the world at low levels...

- Egoist has a level 1 ACF which gives you the Changeling's shape-shifting ability, at will. That's nifty for assassination & target replacement.

- Nomad has a level 1 ACF which allows you to hide a belt-pouch worth of stuff in a personal extradimensional space. You can steal small things, or smuggle a pistol or grenade into someplace secure.

- Kineticist has a level 1 power (control object) which can make Open Lock checks within line of sight. That means you can open windows from the inside -- or just animate a whole door or window and have it open itself in a way that avoids opening the lock. You can probably also animate unattended items, like jewelry, and have the item walk itself over to you... or have the drugs & kiddy porn walk themselves into the senator's glove compartment.

- Telepath has psi charm person and psi suggestion, as have been mentioned.

- Everyone has access to conceal thoughts (+10 to lying) and attraction (another +4 to lying or the subject gains an unhealthy obsession of your choice which the subject will pursue except when physical danger would result, e.g. not during combat). That's +14 total to social manipulation, or it's making the senator want to google "kiddy porn" for a few hours while you plant the physical evidence and tip off Chris Hansen.

AvatarVecna

2017-07-04, 07:56 PM

The people really close to Iceberg don't get a saving throw, but I'd agree Eruption is better for hitting more targets. Edit: Never mind, you already mentioned that. :smallredface:

Edit: No damage cap on Erupt? Oh, it's from Serpent Kingdoms? That explains everything! :smalltongue:

The lack of a damage cap is the least of your problems comparing them; it makes a difference in epic, but Cleric 17 casting Erupt deals 170 damage, or 85 if you make the Fort save. 85 is better than 97% of rolls you can get on 20d6, making the successful save value of Erupt objectively worse than the average "failed save" roll of Iceberg. The lack of a save for the people closest is really neat though.

For an additional couple comparison, Widened Maximized Fireball with full Reserves Of Strength in action is 40 ft radius 138 fire damage (DC whatever Reflex save for 69 fire damage instead). That's comparable to Iceburg as well without Metamagic reduction, and Energy Substitution can make it nonfire if you need it to not be fire.

With metamagic reduction, things can get even more ridiculous.

Venerable Grey Elf Wizard (Evoker 2)/Master Specialist 3/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 (taking Spell Power every time) with Int 38. Arcane Thesis (Fireball), Greater Spell Focus (Evocation), Reserves Of Strength, and Spell Thematics (Fireball/Wish). Orange Ioun Stone, Ring Of Arcane Might, Robe Of Arcane Might (Evocation), custom item of +30 to Spellcraft. Use Wish to replicate Greater Consumptive Field, and then slap Persistent Spell on it with Metamagic Effect (make sure you don't use Reserves Of Strength on GCF, for such is the path to getting books chucked at your head :smalltongue:). Wish CL is 28, so GCF will max out at +14, making your Fireball CL 45 (48 with RoS).

Metamagic:
Empower Spell +2
Energy Admixture (Fire) +4
Fiery Spell +1
Heighten Spell +2
Invisible Spell +0
Searing Spell +1
Transdimensional +1
Twin Spell +4
Widen Spell +3

This mage spends a swift action and a 9th lvl spell slot to cast a spell that requires no somatic or verbal components, no material components, and has no effect detectable by the naked eye, but it causes two separate 40 ft radius explosions that deal 120d6+120 fire damage (affecting insubstantial and fire resistant foes normally, and dealing half damage to fire immune targets), with a DC 31 Reflex save for half. To most foes that aren't fire immune, this amounts to average 540 fire damage on a failure, or 270 on a success.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 08:04 PM

The lack of a damage cap is the least of your problems comparing them; it makes a difference in epic, but Cleric 17 casting Erupt deals 170 damage, or 85 if you make the Fort save. 85 is better than 97% of rolls you can get on 20d6, making the successful save value of Erupt objectively worse than the average "failed save" roll of Iceberg. The lack of a save for the people closest is really neat though.

For an additional couple comparison, Widened Maximized Fireball with full Reserves Of Strength in action is 40 ft radius 138 fire damage (DC whatever Reflex save for 69 fire damage instead). That's comparable to Iceburg as well without Metamagic reduction, and Energy Substitution can make it nonfire if you need it to not be fire.

With metamagic reduction, things can get even more ridiculous.

Venerable Grey Elf Wizard (Evoker 2)/Master Specialist 3/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 (taking Spell Power every time) with Int 38. Arcane Thesis (Fireball), Greater Spell Focus (Evocation), Reserves Of Strength, and Spell Thematics (Fireball/Wish). Orange Ioun Stone, Ring Of Arcane Might, Robe Of Arcane Might (Evocation), custom item of +30 to Spellcraft. Use Wish to replicate Greater Consumptive Field, and then slap Persistent Spell on it with Metamagic Effect (make sure you don't use Reserves Of Strength on GCF, for such is the path to getting books chucked at your head :smalltongue:). Wish CL is 28, so GCF will max out at +14, making your Fireball CL 45 (48 with RoS).

Metamagic:
Empower Spell +2
Energy Admixture (Fire) +4
Fiery Spell +1
Heighten Spell +2
Invisible Spell +0
Searing Spell +1
Transdimensional +1
Twin Spell +4
Widen Spell +3

This mage spends a swift action and a 9th lvl spell slot to cast a spell that requires no somatic or verbal components, no material components, and has no effect detectable by the naked eye, but it causes two separate 40 ft radius explosions that deal 120d6+120 fire damage (affecting insubstantial and fire resistant foes normally, and dealing half damage to fire immune targets), with a DC 31 Reflex save for half. To most foes that aren't fire immune, this amounts to average 540 fire damage on a failure, or 270 on a success.

Impressive.

In light of that, I think you'd only use Iceberg over Erupt if you knew your opponent had Mettle and a high Fort save.

Edit: Or if you couldn't take the time to cast Erupt, maybe.

AvatarVecna

2017-07-04, 08:21 PM

Impressive.

In light of that, I think you'd only use Iceberg over Erupt if you knew your opponent had Mettle and a high Fort save.

Edit: Or if you couldn't take the time to cast Erupt, maybe.

Iceberg has its definite advantages. Fire resistance/immunity is more common than the others, and clerics have less reason to take Energy Substitution or Searing Spell than Wizards do - Clerics just aren't blasters for the most part. The primary issue with Erupt is the casting time; if you can find a way to get Rapid Spell on it pre-epic, that helps, but there's very little you can do against the main problem: "Range Touch". Even things that extend it largely can't go too far. A Cleric 17/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer 2 could get some great range on it, I suppose, but beyond that you're not likely to get centered any further than 30 ft away from you - not that making the spell even Long Range would help that much, since it has a 1700 ft radius. If you haven't taken specific precautions against it like Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), you're gonna have a bad time.

EDIT: Also, because Iceberg is Xd& damage rather than flat 10, it can benefit from Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, and Energy Admixture on a more dedicated metamagic blasting build - and Incantatrix, the main PrC for making blasting more effective, is arcane rather than divine, making getting tons of metamagic on Iceberg easier than on Erupt anyway. Difficult to fully take advantage of that pre-epic, but possible - and much easier once you do get into epic.

ColorBlindNinja

2017-07-04, 08:29 PM

Iceberg has its definite advantages. Fire resistance/immunity is more common than the others, and clerics have less reason to take Energy Substitution or Searing Spell than Wizards do - Clerics just aren't blasters for the most part. The primary issue with Erupt is the casting time; if you can find a way to get Rapid Spell on it pre-epic, that helps, but there's very little you can do against the main problem: "Range Touch". Even things that extend it largely can't go too far. A Cleric 17/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer 2 could get some great range on it, I suppose, but beyond that you're not likely to get centered any further than 30 ft away from you - not that making the spell even Long Range would help that much, since it has a 1700 ft radius. If you haven't taken specific precautions against it like Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), you're gonna have a bad time.

EDIT: Also, because Iceberg is Xd& damage rather than flat 10, it can benefit from Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, and Energy Admixture on a more dedicated metamagic blasting build - and Incantatrix, the main PrC for making blasting more effective, is arcane rather than divine, making getting tons of metamagic on Iceberg easier than on Erupt anyway. Difficult to fully take advantage of that pre-epic, but possible - and much easier once you do get into epic.

Interesting.

Once you get into epic, Cosmic Descryer's Cosmic Connection can pump your CL as high as want.

Eruption could deal infinite damage.

You'd also take infinite damage, but with Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity, you survive and the you can heal yourself with Wish.

Edit: Touch range... Do you touch the ground? I'd imagine fire immunity would be essential to keep yourself from frying, but what an odd range.

AvatarVecna

2017-07-04, 08:48 PM

Interesting.

Once you get into epic, Cosmic Descryer's Cosmic Connection can pump your CL as high as want.

Eruption could deal infinite damage.

You'd also take infinite damage, but with Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity, you survive and the you can heal yourself with Wish.

Permanent Emanation (Greater Consumptive Field) with Reserves Of Strength can do the same; cheesy, but then infinite CL is always cheesy. :smalltongue:

Not to mention infinite radius. :tongue:

Edit: Touch range... Do you touch the ground? I'd imagine fire immunity would be essential to keep yourself from frying, but what an odd range.

Essentially? And yeah, it's pretty odd. Fire Immunity helps you against it (unless you wanna deal another damage type via Energy Substitution, or are using Searing Spell to flip the bird to Fire Immunity). The standard defense pre-epic will probably be a well-worded Contingency: Celerity granting you an action immediately before you'd be harmed (use it to teleport somewhere out of range). If you're getting into epic and/or metamagic shenanigans, Delay Spell is a very simple way to have the spell go off when you're not in range. The aforementioned Arcane Archer build cna probably get some ridiculous range increments pre-epic, and depending on interpretation allows for shenanigans involving Splitting arrows. Once you're epic, you can fire an arrow at any target you can see, which is either essentially infinite range or extremely limited range, depending on how you feel about an epic feat giving martials nice things, and how tolerant you are of shenanigans like this.