If you had martial class levels in the real world, could you get to level 20?

[Hackulator]

So, even if you were able to somehow get your first class level as a martial character, could you get to level 20?

Most people are low level NPCs so you can't get much xp from them. Maybe you could fight some UFC Fighters would might counts as having a few levels of unoptimized fighter or monk to get a few levels, but mostly you'd need to kill animals.

Low levels wouldn't be so bad, you could get xp from killing wolves, bulls, snakes and bears.

Eventually that would start to get rough and you'd probably need to go on safari. Hunting lions, tigers, rhinos, hippos or elephants could get you into the mid levels. It would be difficult to get enough kills considering all the conservation issues and just the lack of targets, but with PC levels you would have the skills to get it done.

Elephants cap out at CR 7 with a value of 3200 XP. Now you're in the are where it starts to get rough. From here to 14th level requires killing in excess of 100 elephants, a significant task, but lets say you are up for it.

Now you're level 14 and you're getting near the point where a single level could require a 100 elephants or more. This is unreasonable so we have to look for new options. Whats left?

Well the only things we can go after that are better than elephants in the rel world are Giant Squid (CR 9), Giant Anacondas (CR 10) and Blue Whales (CR 12). All of these creatures are both very rare AND live in inaccessible areas. The highest xp value of these is 19200 for the blue whale. In order to get from level 14 to level 20, you'd need to kill 165 blue whales. I'm not sure if that's reasonably possible to pull off given how hard tracking them down would be, and the fact that they are not at easy to kill. Remember, you have no magic items and you have to solo them to get full XP.

Elephants would require killing approximately a thousand to get from 14-20 which would put a LOT of people on your trail.

So do you think it would be doable?

[Tainted_Scholar]

You can get XP from things other than just combat.

[Gildedragon]

Couple problems here:
1) you needn't kill to win combat. Beating at a tournament is good enough
2) combat isn't the only XP source

The fastest way would probably be going through combat circuits.

One goes through 13ish CR 1/4 Human Warrior 1s before hitting one's second level.
This is probably equivalent to a local amateur for fun tournament.
Up one goes and with that up goes the quality of the combatants one is facing (as it might be well assumed that the CR goes up proportionally with the scale of the tournaments)
Assuming 13 match ups per tournament, one could scale levels pretty fast. After that point one might start doing 2+ on 1 fights with other world Champs. Tie one's hand behind one's back... Stuff like that to boost the CR of the encounters.
By then one is probably a world renowned martial artist. Though maybe not Lvl 20.
One then starts fighting robots, out punching monster trucks, rescuing folk from burning buildings...
Scaling Everest unaided and barehanded probably is a CR 20 endeavor.
But maybe it isn't... So skill stunts come next:
Out jump the grand canyon, run on water, swim the pacific...perform (acting) at a remake of The Room and make it into a good movie with pathos

[Jormengand]

I think the question needs to be approached by ignoring things which don't already have an explicit CR. If you start making statements like "Climbing Everest is probably CR 20" (which couldn't be true anyway, because a level 5 wizard can manage it relatively trivially) then you may as well just be homebrewing at that point. So you're talking traps and combat as well as a few natural disasters (assuming they work the way they do in 3.5).

So mainly we should be thinking about combat.

[Ellrin]

So, even if you were able to somehow get your first class level as a martial character, could you get to level 20?

Most people are low level NPCs so you can't get much xp from them. Maybe you could fight some UFC Fighters would might counts as having a few levels of unoptimized fighter or monk to get a few levels, but mostly you'd need to kill animals.

Low levels wouldn't be so bad, you could get xp from killing wolves, bulls, snakes and bears.

Eventually that would start to get rough and you'd probably need to go on safari. Hunting lions, tigers, rhinos, hippos or elephants could get you into the mid levels. It would be difficult to get enough kills considering all the conservation issues and just the lack of targets, but with PC levels you would have the skills to get it done.

Elephants cap out at CR 7 with a value of 3200 XP. Now you're in the are where it starts to get rough. From here to 14th level requires killing in excess of 100 elephants, a significant task, but lets say you are up for it.

Now you're level 14 and you're getting near the point where a single level could require a 100 elephants or more. This is unreasonable so we have to look for new options. Whats left?

Well the only things we can go after that are better than elephants in the rel world are Giant Squid (CR 9), Giant Anacondas (CR 10) and Blue Whales (CR 12). All of these creatures are both very rare AND live in inaccessible areas. The highest xp value of these is 19200 for the blue whale. In order to get from level 14 to level 20, you'd need to kill 165 blue whales. I'm not sure if that's reasonably possible to pull off given how hard tracking them down would be, and the fact that they are not at easy to kill. Remember, you have no magic items and you have to solo them to get full XP.

Elephants would require killing approximately a thousand to get from 14-20 which would put a LOT of people on your trail.

So do you think it would be doable?

You'd have attracted law enforcement long before your first 100 elephants, so unless you were investing a lot into Disguise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, and Move Silently, you'd end up in an escalating show-down with the authorities. You might be able to take out a large number of local law enforcement by level 7, but eventually if you kill enough cops you're dealing with the national guard, and what they lack in PC levels they easily make up for in numbers and equipment, meaning you're taking a lot of critical hits with d20 Modern weapons, and as a martial class (unless you're a crusader), you probably don't have any access to self-healing beyond the Heal skill.

I can't see this plan being both efficient and survivable beyond level 10--you simply can't kill enough high experience enemies in a short enough period of time to avoid being taken down by sheer numbers, or you're stuck hiding and bluffing your way out of social encounters between kills, which slows your advancement to a crawl.

[Malroth]

Find a partner, Take turns winning and loosing, deal only subdual damage to the other one, you'll both level at the same rate and if you fight once per day you're leveling a little faster than once a month.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You'd have attracted law enforcement long before your first 100 elephants, so unless you were investing a lot into Disguise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, and Move Silently, you'd end up in an escalating show-down with the authorities. You might be able to take out a large number of local law enforcement by level 7, but eventually if you kill enough cops you're dealing with the national guard, and what they lack in PC levels they easily make up for in numbers and equipment, meaning you're taking a lot of critical hits with d20 Modern weapons, and as a martial class (unless you're a crusader), you probably don't have any access to self-healing beyond the Heal skill.

I can't see this plan being both efficient and survivable beyond level 10--you simply can't kill enough high experience enemies in a short enough period of time to avoid being taken down by sheer numbers, or you're stuck hiding and bluffing your way out of social encounters between kills, which slows your advancement to a crawl.

Take ranks in Bluff. :smallamused:

[Ellrin]

Take ranks in Bluff. :smallamused:

Yeah, but that slows down your advancement to a near standstill since you have to spend a lot of time Bluffing your way through social encounters and keeping your head down between kills.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yeah, but that slows down your advancement to a near standstill since you have to spend a lot of time Bluffing your way through social encounters and keeping your head down between kills.

Would bluffing your way past encounters get you XP?

Diplomacy is arguably better, though.

[SirNibbles]

I think the question needs to be approached by ignoring things which don't already have an explicit CR. If you start making statements like "Climbing Everest is probably CR 20" (which couldn't be true anyway, because a level 5 wizard can manage it relatively trivially) then you may as well just be homebrewing at that point. So you're talking traps and combat as well as a few natural disasters (assuming they work the way they do in 3.5).

So mainly we should be thinking about combat.

I'm not familiar with Pathfinder, so I'll need some explaining. To me (being familiar with 3.5) it seems that a 5th level Wizard would struggle with Altitude Fatigue/Sickness and Avalanches (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mountain_Terrain), even with the spells they have at their disposal. Exhaustion and damage to all ability stats would definitely be a bit of a downer even without the CR 7 Avalanche.


Find a partner, Take turns winning and loosing, deal only subdual damage to the other one, you'll both level at the same rate and if you fight once per day you're leveling a little faster than once a month.

Or you could just train with a partner. You don't have to beat someone to gain experience- sparring, studying manuals/treatises, and working out should be enough to get you exp.

[Goaty14]

Xp isn't rewarded through combat only, a lvl 1 commoner with no ranks in anything continually trying to bluff people will get xp sooner or later because it is a challenge to face. In fact, avoiding combat gets you just as much xp you would have gotten if you avoid fighting (Citing the vow of peace from BoED).

So to answer the question; Yes, but combat isn't the only source of xp to get there.

[Hackulator]

Sparring with the same person over and over doesn't count. If it did, adventuring parties would just spend all day fighting each other and healing up.

Likewise making your own traps and going through them does not work.


I think the question needs to be approached by ignoring things which don't already have an explicit CR. If you start making statements like "Climbing Everest is probably CR 20" (which couldn't be true anyway, because a level 5 wizard can manage it relatively trivially) then you may as well just be homebrewing at that point. So you're talking traps and combat as well as a few natural disasters (assuming they work the way they do in 3.5).

So mainly we should be thinking about combat.

basically this


Xp isn't rewarded through combat only, a lvl 1 commoner with no ranks in anything continually trying to bluff people will get xp sooner or later because it is a challenge to face. In fact, avoiding combat gets you just as much xp you would have gotten if you avoid fighting (Citing the vow of peace from BoED).

So to answer the question; Yes, but combat isn't the only source of xp to get there.

You could only really bluff your way past small groups of people and people have **** CR in the real world.

[SirNibbles]

Sparring with the same person over and over doesn't count. If it did, adventuring parties would just spend all day fighting each other and healing up.

Likewise making your own traps and going through them does not work.



basically this



You could only really bluff your way past small groups of people and people have **** CR in the real world.

Combat-only exp is non-sensical, especially when you introduce multiclassing. How does the Fighter learn to be a Wizard by smacking things with his sword? He doesn't. He has to spend time outside of combat reading up on spells, memorising them, practising, etc.

Exp from combat encounters is simply the easiest way for the system to allow players to advance. It's not intended to represent reality.

[Hackulator]

Combat-only exp is non-sensical, especially when you introduce multiclassing. How does the Fighter learn to be a Wizard by smacking things with his sword? He doesn't. He has to spend time outside of combat reading up on spells, memorising them, practising, etc.

Exp from combat encounters is simply the easiest way for the system to allow players to advance. It's not intended to represent reality.

Trying to apply logic to D&D systems is whats nonsensical.

I could just as easily say that when he's murdered enough things and stolen fragments of their soul, his soul has gained the power to do more and he chose to use it on magic. TBH, that fits the way D&D works better anyway.

Of course in a normal game I agree with xp for RP and all sorts of things, but that all requires DM interpretation. There's no DM here, you mostly gotta kill stuff.

[AvatarVecna]

Before I get too deep into researching for this, I just wanna point out that because this thread is marked PF:


Remember, you have no magic items and you have to solo them to get full XP.

This line is untrue. Master Craftsman allows you to craft magic items without actually having magic, and PF casting doesn't cost XP anyway. Sure Master Craftsman only works for Magic Arms & Armor and Craft Wondrous Items, but those categories have a lot of neat options for martials even without going into custom crap.

[Hackulator]

Before I get too deep into researching for this, I just wanna point out that because this thread is marked PF:



This line is untrue. Master Craftsman allows you to craft magic items without actually having magic, and PF casting doesn't cost XP anyway. Sure Master Craftsman only works for Magic Arms & Armor and Craft Wondrous Items, but those categories have a lot of neat options for martials even without going into custom crap.

Even if that was true, crafting magic items takes time and a huge amount of money in the real world.

However, since there is no store to buy the magic materials from in the real world, you can't craft.

"Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp." -from http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html

Crafting magic items requires you can buy special supplies you can't just turn gold pieces into magic items.

[Mechalich]

Elephants would require killing approximately a thousand to get from 14-20 which would put a LOT of people on your trail.

It is estimated that, in this decade, elephant mortality due to poaching is around ~27,000 per year. In the 1980s it was four times that. I wouldn't be surprised if there are poachers that have actually done this (and it is perfectly acceptable in this scenario to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bolt-Action Rifle, in the same way that you can take exotic weapon proficiency to use alien laser weapons).


Eventually that would start to get rough and you'd probably need to go on safari. Hunting lions, tigers, rhinos, hippos or elephants could get you into the mid levels. It would be difficult to get enough kills considering all the conservation issues and just the lack of targets, but with PC levels you would have the skills to get it done.

Many of these animals are bred in captivity - the United States, by itself, has more tigers in captivity than live in the wild globally. An afternoon with an assault rifle at a crocodile farm (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Crocfarm.jpg) could easily net you hundreds of CR 2 kills. Alternatively, a single longline fishing boat can easily catch hundreds of sharks and other large gamefish in a day (CR 2-4) and one person can kill them all without much trouble. Also, boars are CR 2 and you can hunt them as much as you want in Texas and many other areas because they are invasive pests.

The real obstacle here is money, you'd need significant wealth to carry this sort of thing out, probably in the 8-figure range, but this isn't necessarily a big obstacle. Since this problem already assumes most humans are low CR, then a short but successful boxing career (figure 3-5 years) culminating in a marquee pay-per-view has it all taken care of.

[Hackulator]

It is estimated that, in this decade, elephant mortality due to poaching is around ~27,000 per year. In the 1980s it was four times that. I wouldn't be surprised if there are poachers that have actually done this (and it is perfectly acceptable in this scenario to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bolt-Action Rifle, in the same way that you can take exotic weapon proficiency to use alien laser weapons).



Many of these animals are bred in captivity - the United States, by itself, has more tigers in captivity than live in the wild globally. An afternoon with an assault rifle at a crocodile farm (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Crocfarm.jpg) could easily net you hundreds of CR 2 kills. Alternatively, a single longline fishing boat can easily catch hundreds of sharks and other large gamefish in a day (CR 2-4) and one person can kill them all without much trouble. Also, boars are CR 2 and you can hunt them as much as you want in Texas and many other areas because they are invasive pests.

The real obstacle here is money, you'd need significant wealth to carry this sort of thing out, probably in the 8-figure range, but this isn't necessarily a big obstacle. Since this problem already assumes most humans are low CR, then a short but successful boxing career (figure 3-5 years) culminating in a marquee pay-per-view has it all taken care of.

Shooting animals that are not attacking you from safety does not earn you xp.

[AvatarVecna]

Even if that was true, crafting magic items takes time and a huge amount of money in the real world.

However, since there is no store to buy the magic materials from in the real world, you can't craft.

"Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp." -from http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html

Crafting magic items requires you can buy special supplies you can't just turn gold pieces into magic items.

If your DM for this real-world game isn't willing to let you make above average tech, go with the Automatic Bonus Progression rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression/). Sure, compared to full gear, it's not impressive, but you don't have that option in this case. But it shouldn't be totally necessary to have even that, given that you've got quite a bit of real-world tech available (equivalents of which can likely be found in the Firearm section and Technology section). Still, we'll likely have to make up for those deficiencies in some way; it is for this reason that I suggest, if you have any control over it whatsoever, you take Ranger levels (giving up the spellcasting for ranger tricks); take Animals, Vermin, and Humanoid (Human) as your favored enemies. By the way, welcome to the real world! We're essentially a "Guns Everywhere" setting, so advanced firearms are simple weapons, so you should start with automatic proficiency in all of them regardless of

Alright, so in regards to advancement, my first point of order is that you missed a few real-world creatures of high CR: Giant Octopus (CR 8), Plague Locust Swarm (CR 8), and the Common Whale (CR 10), although none of them get above the Blue Whale's CR 12. From there, we have a few options on how to go about getting more bang for our buck.

The first and simplest way is to make our animal foes tougher: either use the simple template "Advanced" to create a better-than-average specimen of the species you're targeting to increase its CR +1 (probably can't get away with this too often, since we're essentially finding these animals at random, but it stands to reason that, if you're wandering into the wild, the most capable version of an animal will have a better time surviving than their lesser kin). You aren't just hunting elephants, you're hunting bull elephants. You're not just hunting anacondas, you're hunting the biggest, nastiest anacondas there are. But that only goes so far; it's only +1 CR after all. Honestly, the easiest was would be to abuse the Monster Advancement rules for increasing a creature's HD and CR, which doesn't have an upper limit other than a suggested point at which you should probably increase the monster's size to reflect the number of extra HD it has. Again, since this is intended as real-world, we can't exactly get away with that kind of thing too often; more likely, these are going to be extremely rare specimens indeed.

But really, if we're talking about the most dangerous game there is, I'm not sure why we're talking about anything other than the OG Most Dangerous Game: Man!

Put away your remote islands, boys and girls, 'cause we're not talking about hunting people for sport, we're talking about going to war. Become a soldier, or special ops, or elite forces, or whatever works for you, and get sent somewhere where you can shoot people in the name of whatever country it is you're from. Find a group of acceptable targets, and go take them on with your godly ~12 HD worth of badass martial prowess.

For starters, Pathfinder has existing stats for squads of soldiers; they could probably be pretty easily updated to work off of more modern weapons and armor, making them tougher to take down and effectively higher CR. The existing troops (you'll need to scroll to near the bottom (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/firearms/modern-firearms/)) vary between CR 11 and 12; taking out quite a few of those should be much easier than hunting the Blue Whales to extinction, although surviving a war zone may prove more difficult than you think!

[Malroth]

Yeah this is getting into goalpost moving troll territory here. OP Is assuming Kill only XP and isn't following this to it's logical conclusion that would extend that to ranchers and soldiers being acutal high level characters.

[Chauncymancer]

Sparring with the same person over and over doesn't count. If it did, adventuring parties would just spend all day fighting each other and healing up.

Likewise making your own traps and going through them does not work.
By RAW, this totally works. The thing that keeps you from doing it in a game is that your DM will call you all Munchkins and hide your snacks.

More generally: While you stop getting experience from encounters below a certain level, there's never a limit to how low the individual creatures can be. You can fight the same untrained schlubs forever: You just have to fight more of them at once.

[Hackulator]

By RAW, this totally works. The thing that keeps you from doing it in a game is that your DM will call you all Munchkins and hide your snacks.

More generally: While you stop getting experience from encounters below a certain level, there's never a limit to how low the individual creatures can be. You can fight the same untrained schlubs forever: You just have to fight more of them at once.

Yeah you would never be allowed to do that in any game....so it doesn't work.

[Kish]

You can get XP from things other than just combat.
Yes, this. The thread's basic premise is wrong: people in D&D worlds who never fight anything are not locked at level 1 (they're just rarely PCs, because the game's about adventurers adventuring by default).

If you add a "you can only gain XP by facing living creatures in mortal combat and killing them" house rule, you've changed the ruleset enough that the logical way to deal with the question is to bounce it back at you: "How could I know whether I could reach level 20 in your system? You tell me."

The fact that the OP added
Trying to apply logic to D&D systems is whats nonsensical. leaves me wondering: what are you looking for then? Not a logical answer, apparently.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah you would never be allowed to do that in any game....so it doesn't work.

Why not? It's essentially the same as the boxing champ thing that got mentioned for getting through the lower levels. Fight a dude to knock out, that's a defeat it combat. It's not sparring or practicing; you're not trying to kill each other, but you're trying to win. The fact that players in a real game, with a DM who wants to run an actual game and will intervene whenever they desire to prevent a conclusion they don't like, couldn't do this doesn't change that this is how Fight Club and military competitive training exercises work.

EDIT: Also, that your response to some things is "thems the rules, this is real life, deal with it" to things that a DM might approve even if they weren't totally RAW-compliant and to others is "sorry, but a DM wouldn't allow that in a real game" to things that are realistic and RAW-compliant but aren't RAI-compliant with you.

[Hackulator]

Why not? It's essentially the same as the boxing champ thing that got mentioned for getting through the lower levels. Fight a dude to knock out, that's a defeat it combat. It's not sparring or practicing; you're not trying to kill each other, but you're trying to win. The fact that players in a real game, with a DM who wants to run an actual game and will intervene whenever they desire to prevent a conclusion they don't like, couldn't do this doesn't change that this is how Fight Club and military competitive training exercises work.

EDIT: Also, that your response to some things is "thems the rules, this is real life, deal with it" to things that a DM might approve even if they weren't totally RAW-compliant and to others is "sorry, but a DM wouldn't allow that in a real game" to things that are realistic and RAW-compliant but aren't RAI-compliant with you.

They're not really realistic, you don't learn much when you keep fighting the same thing over and over. The reason why I said there's no DM for the non combat stuff is because clearly, those values have to be totally made up and there's nothing to base them on, so using that to level would just be us making up stuff and saying "oh look we leveled" which isn't very interesting in terms of what the thread is asking. On the other hand, saying "this thing that is clearly not RAI and clearly would never be allowed in any game ever so we're not having that' seems reasonable.

[Yogibear41]

Could do some pretty amazing things IRL with a few ranger or paladin levels. If those are "martial" enough for you.

[Manyasone]

I agree with avatarvecna on this. This world is filled with strife and war. Any smart martial class can survive and maybe thrive by going to active war zones as a soldier of fortune or if you would be inclined, a hero. Out of all the martials in pathfinder available i would take the soulknife probably

[Ellrin]

Yeah you would never be allowed to do that in any game....so it doesn't work.

There's no DM in this hypothetical, though. This is why we have to go by strict RAW for how XP gains work.

And if we want to apply realism to this, you absolutely do gain more experience for repeatedly training with the same person.

EDIT:
Sort of swordsaged while distracted by Skype.

[Hackulator]

Could do some pretty amazing things IRL with a few ranger or paladin levels. If those are "martial" enough for you.

A ranger would be the best at managing this. If we allow spells, they'd have a high chance of making it, although I just noticed they don't get water breathing.

[Florian]

Personally, I´d go for Performance Combat, Downtime Training and Library Research to take me from 1 to 20. Good time to be a Swordlord ^^

[Liquor Box]

There are certainly combat challenges in real life that are more dangerous than an elephant. A bull sperm whale is probably as good as it get in the animal kingdom. They can be up to 60,000kg (as much as 10 bull elephants). I don't know how what their CR would be, but you would expect significantly higher than an elephant.


I just checked and sperm wales are stated (called Cachalot whales) as being CR7. Oddly they only have one more hit dice than an elephant and only 5 higher strength despite being 10 times their size. A DM might increase the CR by 1 if you fought the whale in the water though.

But combat challenges get much greater than that. A military vehicle like a tank would be more of a threat than 100 elephants. Elephants are CR7, and 20 CR7 monsters are ECL16. Given that a tank would be more of a threat than 20 elephants, I think it is reasonable to assume a tank would be at least CR16.

I suppose a pedantic DM might say that the tank is only equipment, and the CR should be for beating 4 lvl2 experts (the tank's crew). But I think that ignores the reality of the challenge that a person would face fighting a tank without using modern weapons.

[Hackulator]

There are certainly combat challenges in real life that are more dangerous than an elephant. A bull sperm whale is probably as good as it get in the animal kingdom. They can be up to 60,000kg (as much as 10 bull elephants). I don't know how what their CR would be, but you would expect significantly higher than an elephant.


I just checked and sperm wales are stated (called Cachalot whales) as being CR7. Oddly they only have one more hit dice than an elephant and only 5 higher strength despite being 10 times their size. A DM might increase the CR by 1 if you fought the whale in the water though.

But combat challenges get much greater than that. A military vehicle like a tank would be more of a threat than 100 elephants. Elephants are CR7, and 20 CR7 monsters are ECL16. Given that a tank would be more of a threat than 20 elephants, I think it is reasonable to assume a tank would be at least CR16.

I suppose a pedantic DM might say that the tank is only equipment, and the CR should be for beating 4 lvl2 experts (the tank's crew). But I think that ignores the reality of the challenge that a person would face fighting a tank without using modern weapons.

Defeating a tank without your own modern weaponry would be very difficult, and if you have the equipment to match it, it really is just equipment and you get the xp for fighting the people in it, would would probably be like, gunslingers or something? I feel like at least some soldiers have a few PC levels.

[Florian]

Looking up the stats for Rail Gun and Rocket Launcher, that´s 3d10 and 12d6 damage for medium-sized weapons. Going by the example vehicles, a MBT should be Huge size, so we´d have to scale that damage up two steps. That would prove .... interesting.

[AvatarVecna]

There are certainly combat challenges in real life that are more dangerous than an elephant. A bull sperm whale is probably as good as it get in the animal kingdom. They can be up to 60,000kg (as much as 10 bull elephants). I don't know how what their CR would be, but you would expect significantly higher than an elephant.

But combat challenges get much greater than that. A military vehicle like a tank would be more of a threat than 100 elephants. Elephants are CR7, and 20 CR7 monsters are ECL16. Given that a tank would be more of a threat than 20 elephants, I think it is reasonable to assume a tank would be at least CR16.

I suppose a pedantic DM might say that the tank is only equipment, and the CR should be for beating 4 lvl2 experts (the tank's crew). But I think that ignores the reality of the challenge that a person would face fighting a tank without using modern weapons.

For what it's worth, there are stats for an animated tank (and a vehicle one) in Rasputin Must Die; I imagine the former would be more dangerous, due to having no sacks of easily destroyed meat behind the wheel, and due to not requiring the people to coordinate in any fashion (since one mind controls the whole thing).

In that adventure, a fully manned Tsar Tank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Tank) is a CR 12...although it's worth mentioning that the 10 men inside it are each a CR 5; 8 of them would be a CR 11 without the tank, and 12 of them would be a CR 12 without the tank, so whether the tank is meant to be either an extension of that CR 12ish encounter (since the tank's damage/HP is replacing theirs while it's manned), or is almost completely pointless next to it, isn't entirely clear.

Later encounters feature a tank with no pilots and unlimited ammunition, the CR 12 Animated Tank (http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/RzIAAOxyRhBSsxyZ/s-l225.jpg) (I'm not sure what kind of tank, I'm not a tank expert; I only knew the other was was a Tsar Tank because it's explicitly called that and the images I found on Google match the adventure's description). It usually features them in pairs, which by the rules would make that encounter CR 14 (and the encounter is labeled CR 14, confirming that the usual rules for multiple lower-CR opponents encountered simultaneously are in effect IRL, as far as the mechanics are concerned).

The adventure also features real-world traps, like electrified barbed wire fences (CR 9) and Bear Traps (CR 2).

EDIT: A lot of the problem with leveling up fighting real-world threats is that if nobody else has levels like this, we reach a point where most foes are so far below us that we either have to hunt ridiculously dangerous creatures like are listed in the OP, or we have to basically turn a D&D game into an 80's action movie with your martial as the star. They still have to vaguely care about cover injuries and ammunition and stuff, but it can still be Ahnold with more or less no armor going up against a small army of soldiers and winning.

[AvatarVecna]

Come to think of it, "Barbarian who can use guns" would be fantastic for the DR and rage powers and Con boost and HP. Oh god, the DR, especially if you made an Invulnerable Rager... :smalleek:

[Liquor Box]

For what it's worth, there are stats for an animated tank (and a vehicle one) in Rasputin Must Die; I imagine the former would be more dangerous, due to having no sacks of easily destroyed meat behind the wheel, and due to not requiring the people to coordinate in any fashion (since one mind controls the whole thing).

In that adventure, a fully manned Tsar Tank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Tank) is a CR 12...although it's worth mentioning that the 10 men inside it are each a CR 5; 8 of them would be a CR 11 without the tank, and 12 of them would be a CR 12 without the tank, so whether the tank is meant to be either an extension of that CR 12ish encounter (since the tank's damage/HP is replacing theirs while it's manned), or is almost completely pointless next to it, isn't entirely clear.

Later encounters feature a tank with no pilots and unlimited ammunition, the CR 12 Animated Tank (http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/RzIAAOxyRhBSsxyZ/s-l225.jpg) (I'm not sure what kind of tank, I'm not a tank expert; I only knew the other was was a Tsar Tank because it's explicitly called that and the images I found on Google match the adventure's description). It usually features them in pairs, which by the rules would make that encounter CR 14 (and the encounter is labeled CR 14, confirming that the usual rules for multiple lower-CR opponents encountered simultaneously are in effect IRL, as far as the mechanics are concerned).

The adventure also features real-world traps, like electrified barbed wire fences (CR 9) and Bear Traps (CR 2).

EDIT: A lot of the problem with leveling up fighting real-world threats is that if nobody else has levels like this, we reach a point where most foes are so far below us that we either have to hunt ridiculously dangerous creatures like are listed in the OP, or we have to basically turn a D&D game into an 80's action movie with your martial as the star. They still have to vaguely care about cover injuries and ammunition and stuff, but it can still be Ahnold with more or less no armor going up against a small army of soldiers and winning.

If I recall correctly from a previous discussion with you, that module is set some time ago?

The Tsar Tank is of course a very early tank, and the picture you linked to of the Animated Tank looks characteristic of many WW1 tanks (with the tracks being as tall as the tank). Although I am not a tank expert either, so can't identify it (I actually doubt it is a specific model).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_in_World_War_I

I expect that a modern tank like an Abrams would be pretty much impregnable to WW1 tanks, and would be far superior to several of them at once. I think it is reasonable to assume that it would have a higher CR rating.

As to you edit, isn't that kind of the point. People in the real world aren't the equivalent of high level. The world's greatest fighter would be lucky to match a gorilla or a leopard in a fight, let alone animals like bears, rhinos, lions or elephants. SO if we did have a high level one (or even just moderate level, like 5), capable of killing a 350kg bear with their hands, they would appear to be an action hero, unless guns level the playing field (a trained man (warrior 2 say?) with a good gun would be more powerful than any land animal).

[Florian]

Come to think of it, "Barbarian who can use guns" would be fantastic for the DR and rage powers and Con boost and HP. Oh god, the DR, especially if you made an Invulnerable Rager... :smalleek:

>>> http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Barbarian%20Savage %20Technologist

[AvatarVecna]

If I recall correctly from a previous discussion with you, that module is set some time ago?

Indeed. The title is literal: the goal of the adventure is to kill Gregori Rasputin.


The Tsar Tank is of course a very early tank, and the picture you linked to of the Animated Tank looks characteristic of many WW1 tanks (with the tracks being as tall as the tank). Although I am not a tank expert either, so can't identify it (I actually doubt it is a specific model).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_in_World_War_I

I expect that a modern tank like an Abrams would be pretty much impregnable to WW1 tanks, and would be far superior to several of them at once. I think it is reasonable to assume that it would have a higher CR rating.

I don't disagree, but there aren't existing stats for those. I'm providing that stats I know of for tanks to provide some kind of comparison; while I've yet to actually google such a thing, there is no doubt in my mind that the relative penetration power, speed, toughness, and maneuverability of every tank that's ever existed has been extensively compared to that of every other tank that's ever existed on some tank enthusiast site/forum/whatever somewhere on the internet. The point of posting the tank stats wasn't "nu uh, you're wrong, tanks aren't that great" and more "I dunno what kinda tanks we can expect today, but here's some existing tank stats as a starting point".


As to you edit, isn't that kind of the point. People in the real world aren't the equivalent of high level. The world's greatest fighter would be lucky to match a gorilla or a leopard in a fight, let alone animals like bears, rhinos, lions or elephants. SO if we did have a high level one (or even just moderate level, like 5), capable of killing a 350kg bear with their hands, they would appear to be an action hero, unless guns level the playing field (a trained man (warrior 2 say?) with a good gun would be more powerful than any land animal).

I dunno, unarmed maybe, but give 'em a good spear and some training on using it, that dude might do better than you think.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

But combat challenges get much greater than that. A military vehicle like a tank would be more of a threat than 100 elephants. Elephants are CR7, and 20 CR7 monsters are ECL16. Given that a tank would be more of a threat than 20 elephants, I think it is reasonable to assume a tank would be at least CR16.
I was also going to suggest tanks. But when you put it like that... I think I'd actually rather fight one tank than 20 elephants. I might, minimal chance but still a chance, be able to hide from a tank. 20 elephants? With those noses? No way. I might, same small odds, be able to take out a tank with a single still sort of available weapon like a grenade. 20 elephants, sure, with a good rifle there would be a possibility, and it has the advantage of working from range, but I still don't like my chances against 20 charging elephants.

But that's for me. For a humanoid capable of sword fighting with d&d stuff like mammoth mounted trolls, 20 elephants would be just another difficult challenge. Tanks though, I don't have a clue. I suppose that cannon would still hurt quite a bit, but I don't know what the dex save on it is. The machine gun is probably not going to hurt that much more than an elephant goring you, going by the rough feel of D20 modern guns. So overall that tank might just be CR12 or so. EDIT: Skipped the part about the Rasputin adventure. Yeah sure, then a modern tank has to be a higher DC than that.

Maybe navy ships have good CRs? Run into the harbor, declare combat, take out the guards, sink the ships and fasttalk the DM into giving you full XP for an uncrewed docked vessel?


I suppose a pedantic DM might say that the tank is only equipment, and the CR should be for beating 4 lvl2 experts

Hey now, there's no need to starts threatening me.

[Liquor Box]

I don't disagree, but there aren't existing stats for those. I'm providing that stats I know of for tanks to provide some kind of comparison; while I've yet to actually google such a thing, there is no doubt in my mind that the relative penetration power, speed, toughness, and maneuverability of every tank that's ever existed has been extensively compared to that of every other tank that's ever existed on some tank enthusiast site/forum/whatever somewhere on the internet. The point of posting the tank stats wasn't "nu uh, you're wrong, tanks aren't that great" and more "I dunno what kinda tanks we can expect today, but here's some existing tank stats as a starting point".


Sure, I wasn't taking your post as disagreeing with my earlier post. I was only trying to extrapolate from the CR12 given from a tank from 100 years ago, to a modern tank being a much higher CR. A CR high enough to propel a fighter who could defeat a few of them up to lvl 20. If tanks aren't enough, he could kill battleships.


I dunno, unarmed maybe, but give 'em a good spear and some training on using it, that dude might do better than you think.

So long as he has no ranged weapon, I'm still backing the rhino. It might give him a fighting chance against a lion or 200kg bear though.

[Gnaeus]

Fortunately, PF has the mundane class we need. Vigilante. Levels 1-5 you clean up your city. Then you pick your nemesis. I suggest an underhanded corporation (called LexCorp to avoid real world politics), terrorist organization (Hydra) or dictatorship (Latveria). You move to that area, and begin your life as a low level functionary, but with a near supernatural ability to pretend to be innocent, a team of allies, and the stealth and fighting abilities of a ninja/special forces member. At level 6, you can already run at superhuman speed, see in total darkness, and dodge explosions.
Now, we want to craft items but are daunted by outrageous real world costs? What's that? Did lexcorps operating budget just get transferred to my off-sea accounts? Latveria's central bank got robbed? How did that happen? Beats me, I'm just a mild mannered accountant.
Leveling at this point should be rapid. Leaving out non-awarded exp (which you shouldn't) routinely evading security forces and alarms should crank you up to the low teens. Remember, evading an encounter or bluffing past it provides experience also.
By the low teens you are a full fledged superhero. Hide in plain sight is available. You may not be able to leap tall buildings, but you can safely jump off of them. You're basically batman and your CR appropriate threat is the infantry division sent to stop you. Your biggest danger is destroying your nemesis before you hit 20, in which case all you need is another evil dictator.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Even if it's SEAL team six infantry are maybe level 4 or 5. Hardly fast leveling material. Also, kind of rare to see them being sent to do the FBI's job.

[Gnaeus]

Even if it's SEAL team six infantry are maybe level 4 or 5. Hardly fast leveling material. Also, kind of rare to see them being sent to do the FBI's job.

So 8 of them (level 4) are CR 10. A plausible response for a high security installation, or a top corporate response team for a major operation, or the dictators security. Plausibly higher with elite array. Break into LexCorp ceos office and break his leg. Then do it again the next day. I bet you can easily get a CR 14 threat when you go back for his fingers.

What kind of SWAT team shows up when you rob a national reserve bank? I bet it's exp delicious

[ColorBlindNinja]

I remember the Complete Warrior had some rules for nonlethal contests and awarded something like 1/2 XP...

[Hackulator]

So 8 of them (level 4) are CR 10. A plausible response for a high security installation, or a top corporate response team for a major operation, or the dictators security. Plausibly higher with elite array. Break into LexCorp ceos office and break his leg. Then do it again the next day. I bet you can easily get a CR 14 threat when you go back for his fingers.

What kind of SWAT team shows up when you rob a national reserve bank? I bet it's exp delicious

LexCorp doesn't exist. Let's not forget that if you get a SWAT team called on you you might just die.

[ColorBlindNinja]

LexCorp doesn't exist. Let's not forget that if you get a SWAT team called on you you might just die.

That depends on what level you are, and what you're armed with.

[Hackulator]

That depends on what level you are, and what you're armed with.

Even at higher levels, if you're using swat teams to level you're literally going to have to fight hundreds of them, at some point a chain of crits from gunslingers will kill you.

That's ignoring the fact the the worldwide manhunt for the cop serial killer would likely cause you issues.

Same with any other "kill people" option.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Even at higher levels, if you're using swat teams to level you're literally going to have to fight hundreds of them, at some point a chain of crits from gunslingers will kill you.

No SWAT team has hundreds of members, you'll only be fighting a dozen or so people at any one time. Also, I doubt that SWAT members are Gunslingers.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Even at higher levels, if you're using swat teams to level you're literally going to have to fight hundreds of them, at some point a chain of crits from gunslingers will kill you.

That's ignoring the fact the the worldwide manhunt for the cop serial killer would likely cause you issues.

Same with any other "kill people" option.

If you can reach level 10, it's exceedingly unlikely anyone will kill you, unless you're stupid.

[Hackulator]

No SWAT team has hundreds of members, you'll only be fighting a dozen or so people at any one time. Also, I doubt that SWAT members are Gunslingers.

I think it would be pretty fair to give a swat team member a few levels of gunslinger, just not super optimized and with specific feat and power selections that were reasonable in a real world. As I said earlier some soldiers probably have some class levels.

My point was not that you'd fight hundreds of people at a time, but that you'd ave to fight hundreds of swat teams and eventually a crit chain with powerful modern weapons would likely kill you.

[Coidzor]

An Animated Tank (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Animated%20Tank) is CR 12 and it has weapons and armor that are archaic by our standards today. There's a variant that increases the CR for basically having been built with heavier armor, too.

So a modern main battle tank may be a viable source of XP.

Actually, Reign of Winter may give some interesting metrics by which to ballpark the CR of a unit of modern soldiers.

As for tracking down Blue Whales, by the time one started needing to do that, one would also be the world's foremost expert in Blue Whales by virtue of skill ranks.


If I recall correctly from a previous discussion with you, that module is set some time ago?

~1917-1918, yeah.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think it would be pretty fair to give a swat team member a few levels of gunslinger, just not super optimized and with specific feat and power selections that were reasonable in a real world. As I said earlier some soldiers probably have some class levels.

My point was not that you'd fight hundreds of people at a time, but that you'd ave to fight hundreds of swat teams and eventually a crit chain with powerful modern weapons would likely kill you.

I think that's pretty unlikely. If you're a Barbarian, even with a 10 in CON you'll have around 39 HP at level 5 and 71 HP at level 10.

Edit:


As for tracking down Blue Whales, by the time one started needing to do that, one would also be the world's foremost expert in Blue Whales by virtue of skill ranks.

You'd have to be pretty evil to kill something as harmless as Blue Whales. :smallmad:

[Hackulator]

An Animated Tank (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Animated%20Tank) is CR 12 and it only has weapons and armor that are archaic by our standards today.

So a modern main battle tank may be a viable source of XP.

Actually, Reign of Winter may give some interesting metrics by which to ballpark the CR of a unit of modern soldiers.

As for tracking down Blue Whales, by the time one started needing to do that, one would also be the world's foremost expert in Blue Whales by virtue of skill ranks.

Yeah I'm not really seeing the "fight tanks" thing as an option for a lot of reasons.

As for being the worlds foremost expert on blue whales, what class are you? Skill points might be at a premium, and no matter how good you are at tracking them, fighting them in freezing water with no magic could be a problem.


I think that's pretty unlikely. If you're a Barbarian, even with a 10 in CON you'll have around 39 HP at level 5 and 71 HP at level 10.

:


In PF modern I believe a Barret Light .50 sniper rifle does 2d12+3 with a crit modifier of 4. You could die in one shot, as it should be.

[Mehangel]

If I had martial class levels in the real world, and wanted to get to level 20, I would make sure I just put max ranks in craft (traps) and train with them. By using traps, I have a scaling CR from which to train with, ofcourse it isn't without it's drawbacks. Crafting traps can get expensive quite quickly. Then again, if playing a rogue you could probably earn quick xp by breaking into banks and disabling their traps (security systems).

[Hackulator]

If I had martial class levels in the real world, and wanted to get to level 20, I would make sure I just put max ranks in craft (traps) and train with them. By using traps, I have a scaling CR from which to train with, ofcourse it isn't without it's drawbacks. Crafting traps can get expensive quite quickly. Then again, if playing a rogue you could probably earn quick xp by breaking into banks and disabling their traps (security systems).

As I said before, making your own traps which you clearly know how to disarm and then disarming them does not earn you xp.

[Tainted_Scholar]

As I said before, making your own traps which you clearly know how to disarm and then disarming them does not earn you xp.

Can you please cite this?

[Coidzor]

Yeah I'm not really seeing the "fight tanks" thing as an option for a lot of reasons.

With a good Masked Persona or Vigilante levels, you can solo a pariah nation's military after somewhere between level 11 and level 15. Or single-handedly make a pile of (unconscious) bodies out of Syria.


As for being the worlds foremost expert on blue whales, what class are you? Skill points might be at a premium, and no matter how good you are at tracking them, fighting them in freezing water with no magic could be a problem.

Not at level 15+.

Also, you forgot about Master Craftsman, so between that and a few tricks that could be exploited, Magic Items would be attainable.

Also, Retraining is a hell of a thing.

[ColorBlindNinja]

In PF modern I believe a Barret Light .50 sniper rifle does 2d12+3 with a crit modifier of 4. You could die in one shot, as it should be.

That's not likely at level 10. That's without a CON bonus too, otherwise your HP would be closer to 95 if you were at all optimized.

[Nupo]

If you had martial class levels in the real world, could you get to level 20?
If you assume people in real life do have martial class levels, (soldiers, criminals, police officers etc.) then nothing in the premise of the question prevents anyone in real life from already having done it. So all you have to do is figure out if anyone has ever done it, because if it's possible someone has most likely done it. I can't think of anyone, modern or historic, that I think would be higher than 10th level at most. In fact that is probably a real stretch. Think of what a 10th level martial class character can do in game. I can't think of anyone that existed in real life that can do even a fraction of that. Not Sgt. York, Chris Kyle, Bruce Lee, King Leonidas, William Wallace, Attila the Hun, Sun Tzu, Genghis Khan or even Chuck Norris. So I say no way could you get to level 20.

[Hackulator]

With a good Masked Persona or Vigilante levels, you can solo a pariah nation's military after somewhere between level 11 and level 15. Or single-handedly make a pile of (unconscious) bodies out of Syria.



Not at level 15+.

Also, you forgot about Master Craftsman, so between that and a few tricks that could be exploited, Magic Items would be attainable.

As discussed earlier, making magic items requires access to a place where magic materials can be purchased, per SRD.

"Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp."

There is no place to get these supplies, so you cannot make magic items.


That's not likely at level 10. That's without a CON bonus too, otherwise your HP would be closer to 95 if you were at all optimized.

You're fighting multiple people with guns that crit on 19-20 and have a crit modifier of 4. A single shot from a Barrett can do 108 points of damage with a max crit, and that is ignoring any feats or abilities a low level gunslinger or even warrior might have. The chances of NOT dying over a large number of fights is minuscule.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You're fighting multiple people with guns that crit on 19-20 and have a crit modifier of 4. A single shot from a Barrett can do 108 points of damage with a max crit, and that is ignoring any feats or abilities a low level gunslinger or even warrior might have. The chances of NOT dying over a large number of fights is minuscule.

The chances of getting a max crit are quite improbable.

If I'm a Barbarian, I could use Rage and boost my HP even higher.

Most of those shots will only be dealing around 16 damage or so.

Finally, I don't think most SWAT teams carry Barrets.

Edit: A sniper would not only have to roll a 20, they'd have to confirm it. That's not guaranteed, especially if I have a half-way decent DEX score.

[Coidzor]

As discussed earlier, making magic items requires access to a place where magic materials can be purchased, per SRD.

"Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp."

There is no place to get these supplies, so you cannot make magic items.

:smallconfused:

That's hardly the ironclad argument that you seem to think it is.

[Hackulator]

The chances of getting a max crit are quite improbable.

If I'm a Barbarian, I could use Rage and boost my HP even higher.

Most of those shots will only be dealing around 16 damage or so.

Finally, I don't think most SWAT teams carry Barrets.

First off, that's a SINGLE shot. We're talking about you trying to fight MANY swat teams. In Modern, guns crit on 19-20. That means a full 10% of shots will be crits with a x4 multiplier. That mans you will likely be subject to multiple crits over the course of a fight against a full team (and if its not a full team you're getting worthless xp).

Also, since you're have to go after multiple swat teams, once the news gets out of this crazed person murdering cops who can withstand gunshots, I'm pretty confident they would up the level of weaponry they have. Even if not, lower caliber rifles could still kill you with a few lucky shots.

That's ignoring the fact that a drone would probably just drop a bomb on your house one day.

So no, murdering swat teams is not a functional path.

[AvatarVecna]

First off, that's a SINGLE shot. We're talking about you trying to fight MANY swat teams. In Modern, guns crit on 19-20. That means a full 10% of shots will be crits with a x4 multiplier. That mans you will likely be subject to multiple crits over the course of a fight against a full team (and if its not a full team you're getting worthless xp).

Also, since you're have to go after multiple swat teams, once the news gets out of this crazed person murdering cops who can withstand gunshots, I'm pretty confident they would up the level of weaponry they have. Even if not, lower caliber rifles could still kill you with a few lucky shots.

That's ignoring the fact that a drone would probably just drop a bomb on your house one day.

So no, murdering swat teams is not a functional path.

I'm still wondering why you're pretending that my post about signing up for the military and going after acceptable targets, considering it's part of what sparked the discussion. We're not "cop killers", we're soldiers murdering enemy combatants, nobody gives a **** about murder in that situation.

[ColorBlindNinja]

First off, that's a SINGLE shot. We're talking about you trying to fight MANY swat teams. In Modern, guns crit on 19-20. That means a full 10% of shots will be crits with a x4 multiplier. That mans you will likely be subject to multiple crits over the course of a fight against a full team (and if its not a full team you're getting worthless xp).

No it doesn't. As I said, they have to hit me first.

You're also assuming that I don't try to take them surprise and kill them before they realize I'm there.


Also, since you're have to go after multiple swat teams, once the news gets out of this crazed person murdering cops who can withstand gunshots, I'm pretty confident they would up the level of weaponry they have.

Sure, if they can find me. Most likely, our murderous Barbarian would skip town, lay low, and then resume his reign of terror.


Even if not, lower caliber rifles could still kill you with a few lucky shots.

It's not likely.


That's ignoring the fact that a drone would probably just drop a bomb on your house one day.

Why would I stay at the same house? Also, bombs offer Reflex saves for half damage (DC 15 typically).


So no, murdering swat teams is not a functional path.

That remains to seen.

Edit:


I'm still wondering why you're pretending that my post about signing up for the military and going after acceptable targets, considering it's part of what sparked the discussion. We're not "cop killers", we're soldiers murdering enemy combatants, nobody gives a **** about murder in that situation.

That sounds like a better plan.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Become Batman, you might get extra XP for taking out threats non-lethally.

[Hackulator]

I'm still wondering why you're pretending that my post about signing up for the military and going after acceptable targets, considering it's part of what sparked the discussion. We're not "cop killers", we're soldiers murdering enemy combatants, nobody gives a **** about murder in that situation.

Sorry, I missed that.

You'd be sharing XP with a lot of people.

[AvatarVecna]

Sorry, I missed that.

You'd be sharing XP with a lot of people.

As this thread has already long-since established, there is no quick, risk-free path to 20th level given the restrictions in place. Quick paths are too risky, risk-free paths are slow. Of the two, though, only one is going to actually get to 20th lvl.

Going into an active war zone, you'll be getting a smaller share of the XP than otherwise, but you'll be making up for it by getting into fights almost as often as a real adventurer.

[Gnaeus]

LexCorp doesn't exist. Let's not forget that if you get a SWAT team called on you you might just die.

I can't discuss real world politics, per forum guidelines. So as I mentioned before, LexCorp is my stand in for any evil multinational, Latveria for a dictatorship, and Hydra for a terror group. Please replace with real world equivalents as desired.

And as mentioned, yes, there is risk involved in leveling. My PC could die tomorrow. But I feel confident in the ability of a level 10 vigilante to survive an encounter with a swat team. Defeat does not necessarily equal kill in a firefight.

[Gnaeus]

That's ignoring the fact that a drone would probably just drop a bomb on your house one day.

So no, murdering swat teams is not a functional path.

1. Why would I murder a SWAT team? I can defeat them far more easily with a stealth or bluff check they can't possibly beat.

2. They can't find Batmans house. My name's Bruce Wayne and unless you can make a sense motive check in the high 30s by level 5 you believe me. That's the vigilante class's main schtick.

[Hackulator]

1. Why would I murder a SWAT team? I can defeat them far more easily with a stealth or bluff check they can't possibly beat.

2. They can't find Batmans house. My name's Bruce Wayne and unless you can make a sense motive check in the high 30s by level 5 you believe me. That's the vigilante class's main schtick.

1. I believe there comes a point where sneaking past SWAT teams who have 0 chance to see you is a 0 CR encounter in any game, I dunno.

2. Ok, see, if you have a more complex plan than "I sneak around doing X to SWAT teams" then thats fine, you just have to explain it. Gimme a build maybe. However, its important to remember that if you become enough of a thing, hundreds of intelligence analysts are going to be going over data regarding you and some of them will roll 20s to figure things out.

[TheIronGolem]

In Modern, guns crit on 19-20. That means a full 10% of shots will be crits
No, it means 10% of successful shots have a chance to be crits.

[Hackulator]

No, it means 10% of successful shots have a chance to be crits.

That's not actually what it means either, but you are correct that I was mistaken. However, I think they're likely to be touch attacks? I suppose you'd need a build to figure out exactly what the numbers would like like. Even if 5% of them are crits however, over the lifetime of many combats (remember it takes over a hundred CR 12 encounters to get from 14 to 20) you take a lot of crits.

[AvatarVecna]

Before I get into anything else, a quick check of the D20 Modern book shows me that firearms, across the board, are 20/x2 crit weapons, not 19/x4 as has been put forth here.

I'm putting together a Barbarian build ATM.

EDIT: A number of Pathfinder firearms have a x4 critical multiplier, and some of them have a 19-20 IIRC, but I don't recall any that had both, and it's weird to use weapons from D20 Modern except to change their criticals to be more in line with PF guns, just to make your guns ridiculously more powerful.

[Gnaeus]

1. I believe there comes a point where sneaking past SWAT teams who have 0 chance to see you is a 0 CR encounter in any game, I dunno.

2. Ok, see, if you have a more complex plan than "I sneak around doing X to SWAT teams" then thats fine, you just have to explain it. Gimme a build maybe. However, its important to remember that if you become enough of a thing, hundreds of intelligence analysts are going to be going over data regarding you and some of them will roll 20s to figure things out.

Then Wizards never reach level 20 because no printed encounter can find their real body at the other end of their astral projection and actually kill them. They can defeat me, that is, force me to withdraw and come back another day. They could even kill me, if one of them surprised me and made the one in 8000 roll to crit on me (because I can make them reroll crits with another vigilante ability).

Vigilante 1. Dual identity
Any attempts to scry or otherwise locate the vigilante work only if the vigilante is currently in the identity the creature is attempting to locate (or if the creature knows that the two identities are the same individual). Otherwise, the spell or effect has no effect, revealing nothing but darkness, as if the target were invalid or did not exist.

If every intel agent in the world tried to find the masked avenger, and they all rolled nat 20s they would fail, because I'm Steve the accountant. The masked avenger only exists when I am the masked avenger. Broken? Sure. But thats an easy, RAW, RAI way for martials to run rings around real world counterparts. With the right talent it takes 12 seconds to change my identity, or only 6 if I don't have to worry about meeting someone who knows both Steve and the Avenger. I'm essentially Clark Kent and reality warps itself so that no mere human can recognize me as superman when all I did was take my glasses off. I get a +20 on my already high disguise check.

I figure by level 6, when I begin to take on my nemesis, whatever I decide it to be, My social talents are :Renown
Feign Innocence (+10 to bluff checks to appear innocent, that should give me +19+my cha by 6, +23 or more by 10)
Loyal Aid (I have minions to do things for me, as well as provide alibis and incidently add my level to DC of gather info checks to research me)
With Quick Change and Many Guises by level 10 when I start really screwing around with swat teams and the like.
My Talents at 6 are:
Evasive (in case they use explosives),
Shadows Sight (Dark and lowlight vision)
Shadows Speed (+10 base movement, +10 more at level 10)
And by level 10 I add hide in plain sight and stalker sense, so I always act in the surprise round, and hide, with a stealth check no 4th level npc is likely to beat.
I'll take: Perception, Bluff, Disguise, Stealth, Linguistics, Disable Device, Intimidate at max ranks, with 1+int points left over to divide among other skills.

I've still got my 4 feats left (6 by 10). Lets see, free intimidate bonuses, cha synergy, no one over level 5. I could certainly intimidate abuse (Weapon focus, Dazzling display, Signature skill Intimidate) and make everyone within 30 feet of me run away. Bonus points for being thematic and dangling ceos and dictators off buildings to learn their secrets. Thats probably how I would beat the swat team if I felt a desire to fight them. I probably don't need much to be combat effective since I'm twice or more the level of common threats. Probably a luck feat or two to prevent those crits. Maybe a familiar. The item crafting route if possible in our world would be brokenly good. I could pump stealth to unbeatable levels. I'm spoiled for good choices.

[AvatarVecna]

CG Human Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager/Urban Barbarian) 12

Attributes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22163729&postcount=2924)

Stats (Lvl 12): 17/16/22/10/14/8

Feats:
HD 1: Toughness
Human: Improved Unarmed Strike
HD 3: Deflect Arrows
HD 5: Deadly Aim
HD 7: Deflect Arrows
HD 9: Extra Rage Power
HD 11: Extra Rage Power


Rage Powers:
Barbarian 2: Lesser Chaos Totem
Barbarian 4: Rolling Dodge
Barbarian 6: Chaos Totem
Barbarian 8: Damage Reduction
Feat 9: Damage Reduction
Barbarian 10: Renewed Vigor
Feat 11: Damage Reduction
Barbarian 12: Regenerative Vigor


Basic Equipment:
Nagant M1895 Revolver
Mosin-Nagant M1891 Rifle
Madsen Light machine gun
Enough Ammo for all of them for awhile
Some kind of modern armor


Basic Stats
AC:
Touch AC:
FF AC:
HP: ? (12d12+96)
DR: 6/- vs lethal and 12/- vs nonlethal (9/- and 15/- when raging)

[ColorBlindNinja]

Before I get into anything else, a quick check of the D20 Modern book shows me that firearms, across the board, are 20/x2 crit weapons, not 19/x4 as has been put forth here.

I'm putting together a Barbarian build ATM.

EDIT: A number of Pathfinder firearms have a x4 critical multiplier, and some of them have a 19-20 IIRC, but I don't recall any that had both, and it's weird to use weapons from D20 Modern except to change their criticals to be more in line with PF guns, just to make your guns ridiculously more powerful.

Good to know, that make the Barbarian's survival even more likely.


CG Human Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager/Urban Barbarian) 12

Attributes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22163729&postcount=2924)

Stats (Lvl 12): 17/16/22/10/14/8

Feats:
HD 1: Toughness
Human: Improved Unarmed Strike
HD 3: Deflect Arrows
HD 5: Deadly Aim
HD 7: Deflect Arrows
HD 9: Extra Rage Power
HD 11: Extra Rage Power


Rage Powers:
Barbarian 2: Lesser Chaos Totem
Barbarian 4: Rolling Dodge
Barbarian 6: Chaos Totem
Barbarian 8: Damage Reduction
Feat 9: Damage Reduction
Barbarian 10: Renewed Vigor
Feat 11: Damage Reduction
Barbarian 12: Regenerative Vigor


Basic Equipment:
Nagant M1895 Revolver
Mosin-Nagant M1891 Rifle
Madsen Light machine gun
Enough Ammo for all of them for awhile
Some kind of modern armor


Basic Stats
AC:
Touch AC:
FF AC:
HP: ? (12d12+96)
DR: 6/- vs lethal and 12/- vs nonlethal (9/- and 15/- when raging)

Nice. That looks like around 174 HP on average. I'd say he's nuke-proof. :smallwink:

Edit: D20 Modern has some modern armor you might want.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Quick Question, is it possible to do non-lethal damage with a Gun RAW?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Quick Question, is it possible to do non-lethal damage with a Gun RAW?

The rules seem to say that you can only deal nonlethal damage with melee weapons. So, you could wack someone with the butt of the gun to knock them out, but shooting them would kill them.

[Hackulator]

CG Human Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager/Urban Barbarian) 12

Attributes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22163729&postcount=2924)

Stats (Lvl 12): 17/16/22/10/14/8

Feats:
HD 1: Toughness
Human: Improved Unarmed Strike
HD 3: Deflect Arrows
HD 5: Deadly Aim
HD 7: Deflect Arrows
HD 9: Extra Rage Power
HD 11: Extra Rage Power


Rage Powers:
Barbarian 2: Lesser Chaos Totem
Barbarian 4: Rolling Dodge
Barbarian 6: Chaos Totem
Barbarian 8: Damage Reduction
Feat 9: Damage Reduction
Barbarian 10: Renewed Vigor
Feat 11: Damage Reduction
Barbarian 12: Regenerative Vigor


Basic Equipment:
Nagant M1895 Revolver
Mosin-Nagant M1891 Rifle
Madsen Light machine gun
Enough Ammo for all of them for awhile
Some kind of modern armor


Basic Stats
AC:
Touch AC:
FF AC:
HP: ? (12d12+96)
DR: 6/- vs lethal and 12/- vs nonlethal (9/- and 15/- when raging)

I don;t think you can take Deflect Arrows twice?

Whats your actual AC without armor?

How are your stats so high, or is that just when raging?

What are your skills like? What is your plan to level?

[Coidzor]

So what is the highest CR of creature that one can reliably and economically afford to buy and fight for XP? Rats came up as a great way to start out leveling if in Golarion or Toril, given how cheaply and rapidly they can be bred. They're also fairly inexpensive as live feed for snakes, as I recall.

At what level can one be built to reliably take out wild boars in melee combat nonlethally? Big cats? Grizzlies and Polar bears?

I figure by the time we've gotten to the point of bare-knuckle boxing polar bears in our skivvies in the arctic, special forces training and taking out entire military bases will be a cinch.

As for money, well, thanks to Alternate Profession Rules, we're able to start making an awful lot of money starting with a nest egg of $20 and going into business. Within a year, we've made a business that gives us a minimum post tax income of $20,000 a month. There's no limit to how many such businesses we can make, either.


You'd have to be pretty evil to kill something as harmless as Blue Whales. :smallmad:

Hackulator is the one who wants you to kill them. :smalltongue:

I'd be fine with
being a world renowned marine biologist who also has personally punched out a whale to prove it could be done and then became a physical god.


I dunno, unarmed maybe, but give 'em a good spear and some training on using it, that dude might do better than you think.

I have personally known a man who killed a leopard with a spear after his dog made its perception check and spoiled the leopard's attempt at a surprise round.

[Hackulator]

People have killed a lion with a spear. It doesn't really become an issue until you cannot maintain the proper rate of "murdering elephants" anymore.

Here's the question though, and I'm asking this from the point of view of "if you were running a game, what would you say".

If I get a sniper rifle, stand way far off from elephants, and just murder them over and over, do I really get XP for that if I'm never in danger?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Here's the question though, and I'm asking this from the point of view of "if you were running a game, what would you say".

If I get a sniper rifle, stand way far off from elephants, and just murder them over and over, do I really get XP for that if I'm never in danger?

I would probably allow it, but I'm pretty lenient as far as DMing goes.

I'd probably have someone track you down regarding your elephant slaughtering, though.

Plus, Blue Whale abuse, it would seem.

[AvatarVecna]

People have killed a lion with a spear. It doesn't really become an issue until you cannot maintain the proper rate of "murdering elephants" anymore.

Here's the question though, and I'm asking this from the point of view of "if you were running a game, what would you say".

If I get a sniper rifle, stand way far off from elephants, and just murder them over and over, do I really get XP for that if I'm never in danger?

Before anything else, I'm going to again clarify that my build is fighting men, not beasts. They have guns too, and he's about as good with his gun as they are with there's, but his AC, HP, and DR are much higher.

With that out of the way, I'd have to say that it depends on the situation, and in general, similar situations will be highly dependent. The main thing for me would be "if you didn't exist, would a fight have happened involving them?", and this can vary quite a bit from situation to situation. Let's use elephants as an example.

Suppose a currently-peaceful herd is just minding their own business when some drunk ******* walks up and starts punching/stabbing/shooting them in their stupid tusked faces. He's using weapons and potentially class features, where the elephants aren't, and they weren't picking a fight...but I'd probably give that guy XP if he won the fight, because the peaceful elephants would quickly turn violent. This is also how I'd rule it if the herd of elephants was already stampeding; a dude walking into that gets XP for murdering enemies who aren't specifically trying to kill him.

Now let's put that guy out in the open 50 ft away, shooting down peaceful/enraged elephants from a safe distance. Should he get XP for that? I'd probably say yes, since those elephants are still a threat to be dealt with and he can practice his accuracy by shooting them. But how far out does that reasoning fly? At 50 ft away, an elephant could easily charge him down and engage them whether they were originally violent or not...so how far is too far to call this a combat? 100 ft? I'd probably give him XP for that. Past about 200, though (depending on his range increment) I don't give him as much credit for fighting elephants that can't fight back; perhaps ironically, I might start giving him XP past about 1000 or so (depending on the range increment of his weapon) because he's taking such a massive penalty to accuracy that it's actually a challenge to hit, so reducing them to 0 HP would give him more experience as a marksman, even if no individual elephant was, or ever could be, a threat to him.

So what if instead of being out in the open, he's hiding in the grass 50 ft away? Does being stealthed make this so onesided that it's not a fight anymore? He's close enough that they could spot him, and they collectively get a lot of Perception rolls. So what about 100 ft? As a very general rule, I'd probably halve my above range value for "this no longer counts as combat", although the "this now counts as accuracy training" distance would stay the same.

You can continue doing things like this for positioning, tactics, surprise, environment, win conditions - really, any way of comparing two sides in a fight that doesn't directly involve a statblock. This is a large part of why the intent of those being shot at matters to me. Let's use another example, this time a vague military force, and let's push it to its extremes:

You're on top of a mountain, looking through your futuristic super-sniper rifle designed by Tony Stark or whoever to let you snipe from miles away. You're currently looking down on an open air camp of violent cultists who have been pillaging every town in the region - but right now, they're all unarmed, unarmored, and asleep in their beds. They have no idea anybody knows where they are or how to get at them, and begin surrounded by mountains, it's impossible for them to even really determine where the shots are coming from before you'll manage to shoot them all dead. Should you get XP? This would be iffy for me, but I'd probably say yes; the cultists are enemy combatants who will be picking fights they don't think they can lose with people who need somebody to protect them. The PCs are tasked with taking them out, and have found a method of engagement that gives the enemy no chance of survival and no chance of taking anybody down with them. Could they have engaged from closer, when the enemy was ready for battle and knew where the fight was? Sure, but I'm not going to take XP away from the PCs for using their wits and abilities to create an overwhelming tactical advantage.

[AvatarVecna]

Good to know, that make the Barbarian's survival even more likely.

That particularly thing? Nah, only slightly. Very generally speaking, your options are 2d8+Modifiers with 20/x2, or 1d8+Modifiers with 20/x4. That's not...true across the board, to be clear, but it's a very general comparison of the capabilities. When they have the same odds of hitting (if the D20 Modern guns somehow target Touch, or if the PF guns target regular AC), and there's no Improved Critical involved, you'll generally have a far better time with D20 Modern Guns because of the additional base damage up until your Modifier gets above 40 (although if you have +40 to damage from stuff but aren't high enough level for Imp Crit, your game is doing something weird); if you do have Improved Critical, and accuracy is equal between the two, D20 Modern is better until your modifier gets past +20. That said, targeting Touch makes things much better for PF guns, partially because their accuracy is much higher and partially because it gives them more room for Deadly Aim tradeoffs. This is why I'm using PF Guns: the majority of the time, they're going to be deadlier, and more effective for the enemies to use against me. Giving the enemy good steady damage that doesn't spike much against a dude with high DR feels like I'm hobbling them, while giving them a highly accurate weapon with decent steady damage and godly spike damage feels more fair, I think.


Nice. That looks like around 174 HP on average. I'd say he's nuke-proof. :smallwink:

Edit: D20 Modern has some modern armor you might want.

Didn't finish, had to kinda rush out on an errand. And to be clear, he's hardly "nukeproof" - no evasion - but he can tank a couple of megaton nuke to the face before he goes down (or more, if he makes the save, which isn't entirely unlikely). Bigger bombs can knock him down, but that's pretty impressive right there.


I don;t think you can take Deflect Arrows twice?

Whoops, didn't notice that.


Whats your actual AC without armor?

Sorry, had to rush out the door, but wanted to get the basic build posted real quick. Replace the second Deflect Arrows with Improved Initiative, and take Reactionary and Berserker Of The Society. This should have initiative at +9. As for armor, I'll pick up an Undercover Vest for when I expect to need mobility (read: when I want to rage for +6 Dex) and have a Light-Duty Vest on standby for when I need to armor up (read: when I want to rage for +6 Str or +6 Con). Honestly, without magic items, I'm not going to get Touch AC high enough for it to matter even against low-level warriors wielding PF's advanced firearms, even if we're using the Automatic Bonus Progression rules (hell, even if we're using full magic items).

That said, non-raging AC/Touch AC/FF AC is 16/13/13 (undercover) or 18/12/16 (light-duty) before cover, fighting defensively, total defense, and whatnot. When I'm raging, I have +2 AC (deflection) against Lawful opponents - probably not all the people I'll face in a war, but I imagine military forces will generally lean Lawful a good bit, so probably will apply more often than not - and a +3 to AC against ranged attacks from Rolling Dodge - requires a move action during a rage to activate, but persists for (Con mod) rounds regardless of Rage I think, so probably 6 and possibly 9.

So, during a rage against Lawful ranged combatants (with Lawful more common than non-Lawful and ranged more common than melee, I imagine), A Dex rage will see me with AC 24/Touch AC 21/FF AC 15 (this gets me a decentish Touch AC for going against PF Firearms, but still hardly great), and a Str or Con rage will see me with AC 23/Touch AC 17/FF AC 18 (which is better when I think I have need for a higher FF AC and more HP when going into a fight).

Additional defenses: Deflect Arrows works on bullets (weird, but what the hell, RAW is letting me tank nukes, so deflecting bullets isn't quite that weird), and when I'm raging, my DR increases by 3 and I gain 25% fortification (on top of the AC buffs previously mentioned).

Attack routine with this guy (assuming a PF Mosin-Nagant M1891 Rifle) is probably gonna be +15/+10/+5 or +11/+6/+1 vs Touch AC, dealing
1d10 or 1d10+8 (20/x4) up to 400 ft away. For comparison, the "I'm in the middle of fighting World War I" Russian Soldier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/firearms/modern-firearms/) presented in Rasputin Must Die, who are using similar weaponry and are probably a good comparison for experienced people on the battlefield has AC 14/Touch AC 14/FF AC 10, 67 HP, and the following full attack options:
Standard: +11/+6, 1d10+6 (x4)
Rapid Shot: +9/+9/+4, 1d10+6 (x4)
Deadly Aim: +9/+4, 1d10+10 (x4)
Rapid/Deadly: +7/+7/+2, 1d10+10 (x4)




How are your stats so high, or is that just when raging?

I literally put a link to my rolls in that post. Those stats are "not raging". When I rage, I can add 6 to Str, Dex, or Con, I take no AC penalty, and I don't have limits on what skills I can use.


What are your skills like? What is your plan to level?

Doesn't really matter, but I guess Acrobatics 9 (+12), Perception 9 (+11), Climb 9 (+12) and Swim 9 (+12). The plan is either "be an elite trooper soldier" or "be an elite mercenary", and go fight in wars in the name of freedom and your country of preference (works for any country that holds up personal freedom as important, or any country in which personal freedom is oppressed, which should just about cover most any country you want).