Sub Zero Ice Caster

[LaRayna]

Hey folks, I know I have posted a couple other things here, but I realized I was not quite specific with some of the things I was looking for. First off, our DM does not allow third party material, and prefers core books, so dungeon and dragon magazines may or may not be acceptable.

Basically, I am looking to make a super cold caster and have been approved to use the death knight or spellstitched template without worrying about level adjustment.

If I go with death knight, with their immunity to cold from the get go, I was thinking cleric, ordained champion (with alignment fudging), winterhaunt of iborighu from frostburn.

If I go spellwarped, cleric 1/ wizard 3(and use item familiar feat for early entry into frost mage from frostburn)/ Frost Mage 10/ winterhaunt 6.

but long story shot, if going death knight, I want all ten levels of winterhaunt, and if arcane, all ten levels of frost mage. The only exception would be I guess if you guys found or had a build that was totally amazing. I guess the divine build would be more lenient since death knight has cold immunity so I could make the weather sub zero and not worry from the start.

But I'm hoping you guys can help me, thanks in advance!

[ColorBlindNinja]

Frost Mage from Frostburn might work, as it is an ice themed prestige class.

You need to be able to cast 1st level arcane spells, but the class itself sounds like it can advance divine casting.

It's not amazing, but you get a few free spells and some natural armor.

[LaRayna]

Yeah, one of my ideas was to take one level of wizard with the divine build to achieve that possibly.

[Nifft]

I'm going to propose a third possible path: Druid 20, with the feats Beckon the Frozen and Frozen Wild Shape.

Druids get a lot of excellent [Cold] spells, and you can pick highly competitive animal companions (and later animal forms) from the boreal biomes.

You'll want the usual caster stuff -- Energy Substitution: Cold, Piercing Cold, Snowcasting, Frozen Magic -- and the prereqs for Beckon the Frozen (Spell Focus: Conjuration, and Augmented Summoning).

With 2 flaws, you can grab Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augmented Summoning, and Beckon the Frozen all at 1st level -- plus Energy Sub: Cold if you're Human.

3rd level feat is open; 6th level feat is Natural Spell; 9th level is Frozen Wild Shape; and then for levels 12+ you can proceed with the rest of that list.

= = =

You're already talking about Frost Mage in the OP, so I'm not going to dig too deep into that, unless you want advice on a better build. I will suggest that you don't want both Winterhaunt and Frost Mage, since the class features are kinda duplicated.

I'd suggest using one of the stronger 5-level PrCs to fill out your last levels.

For example:

Wizard 5 / Frost Mage 10 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 - the Unseelie Gnome, a fey spirit of winter's darkness.

Wizard 5 / Frost Mage 10 / Dread Witch 5 - similar to the above, but not required to be a Gnome.


However, I'll note that the Frost Mage extra spells feature is probably better suited to a Sorcerer than a Wizard, and that Arctic and Tundra regions totally count as "wasteland" for the purpose of Sandstorm stuff -- so you could do something like:

Sorcerer 5 / Frost Mage 10 / Sand Shaper 5 (just be sure to take the 1st level of Sand Shaper pretty soon since the spell list expansion is amazing).

As a Sorcerer, you should definitely be some kind of Dragonblood race so you can get free Draconic Heritage (white or silver) at level 1, and then nab Draconic Breath to exhale cones of Cold damage.

[LaRayna]

I'm going to propose a third possible path: Druid 20, with the feats Beckon the Frozen and Frozen Wild Shape.

Druids get a lot of excellent [Cold] spells, and you can pick highly competitive animal companions (and later animal forms) from the boreal biomes.

You'll want the usual caster stuff -- Energy Substitution: Cold, Piercing Cold, Snowcasting, Frozen Magic -- and the prereqs for Beckon the Frozen (Spell Focus: Conjuration, and Augmented Summoning).

With 2 flaws, you can grab Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augmented Summoning, and Beckon the Frozen all at 1st level -- plus Energy Sub: Cold if you're Human.

3rd level feat is open; 6th level feat is Natural Spell; 9th level is Frozen Wild Shape; and then for levels 12+ you can proceed with the rest of that list.

= = =

You're already talking about Frost Mage in the OP, so I'm not going to dig too deep into that, unless you want advice on a better build. I will suggest that you don't want both Winterhaunt and Frost Mage, since the class features are kinda duplicated.

I'd suggest using one of the stronger 5-level PrCs to fill out your last levels.

For example:

Wizard 5 / Frost Mage 10 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 - the Unseelie Gnome, a fey spirit of winter's darkness.

Wizard 5 / Frost Mage 10 / Dread Witch 5 - similar to the above, but not required to be a Gnome.


However, I'll note that the Frost Mage extra spells feature is probably better suited to a Sorcerer than a Wizard, and that Arctic and Tundra regions totally count as "wasteland" for the purpose of Sandstorm stuff -- so you could do something like:

Sorcerer 5 / Frost Mage 10 / Sand Shaper 5 (just be sure to take the 1st level of Sand Shaper pretty soon since the spell list expansion is amazing).

As a Sorcerer, you should definitely be some kind of Dragonblood race so you can get free Draconic Heritage (white or silver) at level 1, and then nab Draconic Breath to exhale cones of Cold damage.

I see. However, the dm suggested I play a tank or blaster caster which is where the divine casting through melee cane in as well as the arcane build something druid is out, plus I've never been a druid person. As for the builds you recommended, maybe I'm missing something but the prestige classes you mentioned, I don't see how they are useful with an ice mage

[Nifft]

I see. However, the dm suggested I play a tank or blaster caster which is where the divine casting through melee cane in as well as the arcane build something druid is out, plus I've never been a druid person. As for the builds you recommended, maybe I'm missing something but the prestige classes you mentioned, I don't see how they are useful with an ice mage

Ice Mage means two different, partially overlapping things.

First, it means Ice: you need to be able to blast your foes with icy death.

Secondly, it means Mage: you need to be able to do all the stuff that a Mage would do, like teleport, turn invisible, fly, dispel magic, bind demons, identify loot, buff your allies, hinder your enemies, and build a giant ice castle on top of a mountain.

There's significant overlap, because you can hinder your enemies using ice-themed spells: path of frost, sleet storm, boreal wind, freezing fog, etc... but not all spells you want will have the [Cold] descriptor. You will want to do generic spellcaster stuff, and you will want to be good at doing generic spellcaster stuff in addition to using [Cold] spells.

That's why the PrC choices include generic awesome stuff: so can become effective at the Ice part, and also be good at the Mage part.

[SangoProduction]

Kineticist Psion or Wilder.

[icefractal]

I see. However, the dm suggested I play a tank or blaster caster which is where the divine casting through melee cane in as well as the arcane build something druid is out, plus I've never been a druid person.Fair enough if you just don't like Druids, but Druid makes an excellent tank (both directly and indirectly) and a fairly solid blaster (they get some quality spells at a lower level than Wizard even). And they get all the weather-related stuff to plunge places you don't like into blizzards.

How do you feel about Necromancy? Lord of the Uttercold goes great with skeletons (and with yourself, if you go Death Knight), and I believe there are a number of cold-themed undead out there.

Definitely check out Frostburn, it has some really nice [Cold] spells. Frostfell is the most deadly, but Iceberg is the most amusing - you literally drop a giant iceberg out of nowhere on your foes. At a lower level, Boreal Wind is some nice BFC, totally wrecks swarms, and can slay a small army. And of course there's the infamous Shivering Touch.

And as Sango mentions, Psionics can do this too. You don't get any ice/snow effects though, just pure cold damage. You could refluff a lot of the Metacreativity powers as being made of ice though.

[LaRayna]

Fair enough if you just don't like Druids, but Druid makes an excellent tank (both directly and indirectly) and a fairly solid blaster (they get some quality spells at a lower level than Wizard even). And they get all the weather-related stuff to plunge places you don't like into blizzards.

How do you feel about Necromancy? Lord of the Uttercold goes great with skeletons (and with yourself, if you go Death Knight), and I believe there are a number of cold-themed undead out there.

Definitely check out Frostburn, it has some really nice [Cold] spells. Frostfell is the most deadly, but Iceberg is the most amusing - you literally drop a giant iceberg out of nowhere on your foes. At a lower level, Boreal Wind is some nice BFC, totally wrecks swarms, and can slay a small army. And of course there's the infamous Shivering Touch.

And as Sango mentions, Psionics can do this too. You don't get any ice/snow effects though, just pure cold damage. You could refluff a lot of the Metacreativity powers as being made of ice though.

Well I looked at lord of the uttercold and it's not something I'll need seeing as I get piercing cold for free with frost mage or winterhaunt, so I can bypass cold resistance. And while psionics could be good, not sure it's entirely what I'm looking for. And as another person mentioned debuffs and hindering my enemies, that's never really been my forte. I'm more of a "here, just take a ton of damage" and this case will be with cold spells

[Anthrowhale]

Blasting is about stacking metamagic. This is typically best expressed via Sorcerer or Wizard taking Incantatrix 10/Spellguard 4/Lore Master 1 which gets 7 extra metamagic feats. Using Arcane Thesis and/or Arcane Fusion you can crank out ruinous amounts of damage past level 10 or so.

[Kaleph]

How optimized do you plan to be? The cryokineticist is shown here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e); it fits thematically and can be adapt to the tank role, but it's definitely not a Tier 1 class.

[LaRayna]

Well apparently I can't be too optimized because my dm seems to be limiting me on spells I can use already, such as shivering touch because he says it's too powerful, which it may be. However, part of the reason I wanted to go with the frost mage or winterhaunt was to play into the cold weather manipulation and the like but I suppose if I played the death knight with cold immunity I'd already have one of the key components

[LaRayna]

I guess my other issue I have a hard time convincing myself to do some of these builds since they have class features I never use

[LaRayna]

Also, one thing, could someone explain what makes arcane fusion so good?

[Nifft]

Also, one thing, could someone explain what makes arcane fusion so good?

You get to cast two spells at once, plus your Swift action is not used.

More actions => more spells => more telling the laws of physics to shut up & sit down => more winning.

This is also why Arcane Spellsurge is great, and why a Metamagic Rod (Quicken) is so excellent and also so expensive.

[Anthrowhale]

You get to cast two spells at once, plus your Swift action is not used....

It's even better if you use Arcane Thesis and Twin Spell. Arcane Thesis[Orb of Cold], Arcane Thesis[Arcane Fusion], and Arcane Thesis[Greater Arcane Fusion] with Twin Spell, Easy Metamagic[Twin], Practical Metamagic[Twin] and Improved Metamagic allows you to cast Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Twin Orb of Cold, Twin Arcane Fusion[Twin Orb of Cold, ?? L1]] which is an expected 630 points of cold damage when the ranged touch attacks hit.

[LaRayna]

Ah, that does certainly seem like a nice way to go. Only problem is our dm is very restrictive when it comes to metamagic feats. First time I brought up the idea of irresistible spell or over use of metamagic reducing feats he threw a hissy fit.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Ah, that does certainly seem like a nice way to go. Only problem is our dm is very restrictive when it comes to metamagic feats. First time I brought up the idea of irresistible spell or over use of metamagic reducing feats he threw a hissy fit.

Irresistible spell is so broken that I don't think you can even use it without breaking things.

Irresistible Flesh to Ice would be a 9th level spell that would just kill people, no save.

[Nifft]

Ah, that does certainly seem like a nice way to go. Only problem is our dm is very restrictive when it comes to metamagic feats. First time I brought up the idea of irresistible spell or over use of metamagic reducing feats he threw a hissy fit.

Even without abuse, you can get a lot of mileage out of metamagic feats.

For example: Energy Substitution (Cold) doesn't increase level, but it does change the energy type. So you can pick up acid fog and use it for a more-effective freezing fog spell, or use it to deal acid damage if are fighting ice trolls or whatever.

= = =

Regarding arcane fusion, imagine you're a level 10 Wizard and you used your level 10 bonus feat to pick up Quicken Spell.

You have quickened magic missile in a level 5 spell slot. You cast it, and then you cast a level 4 spell (ice storm maybe).


Now imagine your friend is a level 10 Sorcerer and she used her level 10 spell known to pick up arcane fusion.

She casts arcane fusion with a level 5 spell slot, and then uses that casting to produce a magic missile and an ice storm.


The Sorcerer spent one level 5 spell slot to cast two spells (level 1 and level 4). The Wizard used a level 5 spell slot and a level 4 spell slot to cast 2 spells (level 1 and level 4).

The Sorcerer used fewer resources, is more flexible about using those resources (could have "retroactively quickened" grease instead of magic missile, for example), and has more of those resources available per day.

[LaRayna]

Cold resistance is why I wanted winterhaunt. At level 7 auto piercing cold with no spell adjustment

[Nifft]

If I go spellwarped, cleric 1/ wizard 3(and use item familiar feat for early entry into frost mage from frostburn)/ Frost Mage 10/ winterhaunt 6.


Cold resistance is why I wanted winterhaunt. At level 7 auto piercing cold with no spell adjustment

Your "best" build -- which your DM will probably not allow, due to the fact that it uses an early-entry trick -- didn't get to level 7.

If you want Winterhaunt, just go Winterhaunt -- ignore Frost Mage entirely.

Clerics are fine spellcasters.

[LaRayna]

Perhaps. Though oddly he is approving of early entry if they're game legal and he's just an overall finicky dm. But I'll do a couple builds and run them by my dm with your folks suggestions and see what happens

[Dr_Dinosaur]

If you can get the Witch from Pathfinder approved, the Winter Witch archetype if very much cold-themed and has an exclusive prestige class (also called Winter Witch) that adds yet more cold.

[LaRayna]

That won't be an option. I already thought about stuff like that but he isn't a fan of cross overs

[Nifft]

What level is your character going to be when you start play?

[LaRayna]

We're going to be level 6. I also forgot to ask if people could put in their two cents and give me some good cold spells? I already have a big list typed out. Necromancy [cold] spells will win you bonus points.

[Anthrowhale]

Snowsight+Obscuring Snow is great. Call Avalanche and Boreal Wind are good spells. Shivering Touch is also very impressive if forbidden.

[LaRayna]

Yeah, our DM banned me from using shivering touch...

[Nifft]

We're going to be level 6. I also forgot to ask if people could put in their two cents and give me some good cold spells? I already have a big list typed out. Necromancy [cold] spells will win you bonus points.

Kelgore's Grave Mist is both Necromancy and [Cold].

Some of my favorite necromancy-themed spells which aren't actually Necromancy are:
- Fell Drain + Boreal Wind
- Fell Drain + Haboob (which is windy, but not technically cold)
- Fell Drain + Extend + Creeping Cold

[The Viscount]

Winterhaunt of Iborighu is a very fun PrC.

Iron Chef (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510581-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXXIII&p=21615789&viewfull=1#post21615789) did a round with it a while back, so there's some sample builds out to 20 to check out.

[LaRayna]

Winterhaunt of Iborighu is a very fun PrC.

Iron Chef (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510581-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXXIII&p=21615789&viewfull=1#post21615789) did a round with it a while back, so there's some sample builds out to 20 to check out.

I see... Dread Necromancer's as far as I was aware didn't have a spell list that went good with the winterhaunt.

[Anthrowhale]

Another fun one for higher levels is Flash Frost + Wounding + Blizzard. You can empty an entire dungeon with one spell.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Another fun one for higher levels is Flash Frost + Wounding + Blizzard. You can empty an entire dungeon with one spell.

Where is Wounding from?

[Anthrowhale]

Where is Wounding from?

Lost Empires of Faerun? 1 point of bleeding damage/round until you get some healing. Most monsters lack access to healing.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Lost Empires of Faerun? 1 point of bleeding damage/round until you get some healing. Most monsters lack access to healing.

Wouldn't that only work on monsters that can bleed?

Edit: Also, I think you'd need Line of Effect.

[Anthrowhale]

Wouldn't that only work on monsters that can bleed?

You would think so, but by RAW it appears to work on all creatures that are damaged so the Giant Skeleton and the Giant both bleed out. The only remedies are heal check = save DC (very harsh for monsters with no ranks in heal), a cure spell, or a heal spell.

[Anthrowhale]

Edit: Also, I think you'd need Line of Effect.
That's why you use Blizzard: it's a spread so it goes around corners.

[Nifft]

You would think so, but by RAW it appears to work on all creatures that are damaged so the Giant Skeleton and the Giant both bleed out. The only remedies are heal check = save DC (very harsh for monsters with no ranks in heal), a cure spell, or a heal spell.

Sloppy editing is the leading cause of death in Faerun.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You would think so, but by RAW it appears to work on all creatures that are damaged so the Giant Skeleton and the Giant both bleed out. The only remedies are heal check = save DC (very harsh for monsters with no ranks in heal), a cure spell, or a heal spell.

:smallsigh: I wouldn't expect anything less from WotC's editors.


That's why you use Blizzard: it's a spread so it goes around corners.

Right, I forgot about that.

I'll have to remember that combo.

Edit:


Sloppy editing is the leading cause of death in Faerun.

Exactly.

[LaRayna]

That's definitely sounds like a potentially fun combo to use

[The Viscount]

I see... Dread Necromancer's as far as I was aware didn't have a spell list that went good with the winterhaunt.

Oh it doesnt, but that build happened to be going for the unexpected. In terms of making spells work with winterhaunt, Energy Substitution goes a long way, especially since its one of the few +0 metamagic feats.

[Endarire]

What are your thoughts on using Fell Drain and [Cold] spells to do, say, a Locate City Nuke (http://ihititwithmyaxe.tumblr.com/post/22331104288/breaking-dd-35-the-locate-city-nuke)?

[LaRayna]

I mean, I'd be down for that, if my dm allows it. Because as I mentioned, he is very strict and picky when it comes to metamagic feats

[Nifft]

What are your thoughts on using Fell Drain and [Cold] spells to do, say, a Locate City Nuke (http://ihititwithmyaxe.tumblr.com/post/22331104288/breaking-dd-35-the-locate-city-nuke)?

Locate City Nuke doesn't work -- you can't add "extra" damage to a spell that doesn't already deal damage.

This is identical to trying to add Sneak Attack dice to detect evil. It does not work.

[LaRayna]

Yeah, it does seem like that would be quite broken. Plus, dm is making me play chaotic neutral so I couldn't do that anyway. Though ice and decay ARE the theme for this ice build. I might also be allowed to take the 3 level class metaphysical soellshaper from book of erotic fantasy

[ColorBlindNinja]

Locate City Nuke doesn't work -- you can't add "extra" damage to a spell that doesn't already deal damage.

Flash Frost makes the spell deal damage.

[Nifft]

Flash Frost makes the spell deal damage.

It does not, for the reason that I said above.

Extra damage doesn't happen if there is no initial damage.

[Anthrowhale]

Extra damage doesn't happen if there is no initial damage.

English does not always work that way. Last time I went to a restaurant I was given extra cookies (... but did not have any initial cookies).

[LaRayna]

Well regardless of if it would actually work, my dm wouldn't allow it. So I'm just trying to look at cold and necromancy spells currently. I figure they go well with deathknight but can't find many necromancy [cold] spells

[Nifft]

English does not always work that way. Last time I went to a restaurant I was given extra cookies (... but did not have any initial cookies).

Welcome to D&D, then.

You'll find the rules of this game no less confusing than the rules of English, though of course the rules of D&D are not identical to the rules of English.


Well regardless of if it would actually work, my dm wouldn't allow it. So I'm just trying to look at cold and necromancy spells currently. I figure they go well with deathknight but can't find many necromancy [cold] spells

Definitely for the best. Even if it did work (which it does not), it would only do bad things to the game.

[LaRayna]

Yeah, my dm has a no evil rule as well

[ColorBlindNinja]

It does not, for the reason that I said above.

Extra damage doesn't happen if there is no initial damage.

I don't buy it. Unless you can cite some kind of rule that states otherwise.

[Vaz]

You mean aside from the definition of it being additional, and you can't add additional to n/a?

[ColorBlindNinja]

You mean aside from the definition of it being additional, and you can't add additional to n/a?

0+X = X

That's how math works.

[Anthrowhale]

You'll find the rules of this game no less confusing than the rules of English, though of course the rules of D&D are not identical to the rules of English.

Citation needed. D&D defaults onto language semantics and extra could mean "additional" in the sense of "damage as an additional effect".

[Nifft]

0+X = X

That's how math works.
You think "LA: --" is the same as "LA: 0"?
You think "Con: --" is the same as "Con: 0"?

Non-numbers are different from numbers.

Math works just fine, but you are wrong.


Citation needed. D&D defaults onto language semantics and extra could mean "additional" in the sense of "damage as an additional effect".



A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll.

No dice => no modifiers => no damage.

Furthermore, Flash Frost affects "all targets" -- what is the target of Locate City? It's either a city, and not the people in the city -- or it's the caster.

Did you have some citation to support your claim?

[ColorBlindNinja]

You think "LA: --" is the same as "LA: 0"?
You think "Con: --" is the same as "Con: 0"?

Non-numbers are different from numbers.

Math works just fine, but you are wrong.

That's how LA and ability scores work, but you've yet to demonstrate that's the case here.

Edit 2: LA: -- means you can't play as a race, and CON: -- means something isn't alive. You can give creatures without CON scores a CON score. (Living Construct, for instance).

Edit:

No dice => no modifiers => no damage.

How do AC boosts work then?


Furthermore, Flash Frost affects "all targets" -- what is the target of Locate City? It's either a city, and not the people in the city -- or it's the caster.

Flash Frost makes no mention of targets.

Edit: It's referring to people within the area of the spell.

[Anthrowhale]

No dice => no modifiers => no damage.
Flash frost doesn't add damage to any dice.
A flash frost spell deals an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell...

Furthermore, Flash Frost affects "all targets" -- what is the target of Locate City? It's either a city, and not the people in the city -- or it's the caster.
I'm more sympathetic to this argument.


Did you have some citation to support your claim?
Just the text of Flash Frost and the definition of extra.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm more sympathetic to this argument.

Locate City is an AoE; Flash Frost is referring to people within its area.

[Nifft]

Flash Frost makes no mention of targets.


This metamagic feat can be applied only to spells that have the cold descriptor and that affect an area. A flash frost spell deals an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area. When you cast such a spell, the area of the spell is covered with a slippery layer of ice for 1 round. Anyone attempting to move through this icy area must make a DC 10 Balance check or fall prone. A creature that runs or charges through the area must make a DC 20 Balance check to avoid falling. A flash frost spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

Why am I arguing with someone who hasn't read the text that they claim supports their interpretation?


Flash frost doesn't add damage to any dice. Indeed. :)


I'm more sympathetic to this argument.
In that case, you'll want to take a closer look at Snowcasting:



If you add a handful of snow or ice as an additional material component to a spell when you cast it, the spell gains the cold descriptor. This does not actually change the nature of the spell you cast; a fireball cast with this feat still deals fire damage, but since it also carries the cold descriptor, it can be augmented by a number of feats listed in this chapter, such as Cold Focus and Frozen Magic. If you add a handful of snow or ice as an additional material component to a spell when you cast it and that spell already has the cold descriptor, you increase the effective level of the spell being cast by +1. Adding this additional material component requires you to spend a move action immediately before the spell is cast to gather fresh snow or ice from the surrounding environment. This snow or ice can be magically created by a conjuration spell, but no other ice manifested by a spell will do. You may take no other action between gathering the snow or ice and casting the spell.

From an RAI perspective, changing a harmless Divination spell into a nation-ending cataclysm would probably qualify as changing the nature of the spell.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Why am I arguing with someone who hasn't read the text that they claim supports their interpretation?-

I edit my post to correct that mistake; Flash Frost targets people within an area of effect.

Edit: Objects, too, most likely.

[Anthrowhale]

Indeed. :)

Perhaps I don't understand your argument? It seems like you are arguing that Flash Frost never adds damage to any spell.

[Nifft]

Perhaps I don't understand your argument? It seems like you are arguing that Flash Frost never adds damage to any spell.

In that case, there were no dice, and also I had been arguing that Flash Frost added no damage to that spell. So in that case, my "Indeed" was because both were true.


My argument would be:

- If a [Cold] spell damages targets, then Flash Frost deals an extra 2 damage per spell level to those targets. Unambiguous and intended.

- If a [Cold] spell affects targets in a detrimental way that is not damage, then maybe Flash Frost deals 2 damage per spell level to those targets. Uncertain, and arguably not "extra" damage -- it's a new effect, since the spell did not previously deal damage, but it's in the right ballpark.

- If a [Cold] spell does not damage nor otherwise affect any target, then Flash Frost adds no damage to that spell.

The 1-round ice slick is a separate matter. The damage is what I'm arguing does NOT apply for Divinations.

The main culprit though is the poorly written locate city spell -- it should be written up like http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/communeWithNature.htm which has a Range: Personal / Target: You.

[Vaz]

0+X = X

That's how math works.
N/a+X = n/a + X, not X.

[ColorBlindNinja]

N/a+X = n/a + X, not X.

Why is it N/A and not 0?

[Vaz]

There is a difference between not dealing damage and not having damage to deal.

I mean, that's a fundamental rule of mathematics and physics. Check Schrodinger for an example of it in practise.

[Anthrowhale]

I generally agree with the interpretation but want to expand on this.


- If a [Cold] spell affects targets in a detrimental way that is not damage, then maybe Flash Frost deals 2 damage per spell level to those targets. Uncertain, and arguably not "extra" damage -- it's a new effect, since the spell did not previously deal damage, but it's in the right ballpark.

'Extra damage' could mean 'damage beyond the amount already done' or it could mean 'damage as an additional effect'. The use of 'extra' as meaning 'additional' is quite common. I don't think the correct interpretation can be further resolved so it's a DM decision.

[Nifft]

'Extra damage' could mean 'damage beyond the amount already done' or it could mean 'damage as an additional effect'. The use of 'extra' as meaning 'additional' is quite common. I don't think the correct interpretation can be further resolved so it's a DM decision.

Yep, agreed. That's why I've put it as "Uncertain".

== == ==

Anyway, it seems like the Theoretical Optimization ("TO") derail is basically over, so ... how about that Kelgore's Grave Mist?

[LaRayna]

Seems like a good spell