The 'Heat Metal' spell seems so frightening.

[CrackedChair]

So Heat Metal seems to be that one spell you can hardly justify not taking if you are a Druid or Bard, due to the fact it works on so much things, and the damage it does allows no save. This alone is scary, but the fact is, what if the enemy has it?

All they have to do is just cast it on somebody wearing metal armor, and they take a lot of fire damage, plus have disadvantage on attack rolls. That is scary, but the frightening part comes from the fact they can keep doing this damage, and all that is required of the person casting it is a bonus action to keep the damage going.

This spell does seem fun in your hands, but with somebody like that angry bard or Darwinist Druid, it doesn't seem so fun when you are on the receiving end of it.

So what is your thoughts?

[Vaz]

Spells for a DM have a different weight than when used against a player. See Disintegrate/Finger of Death, Power Word Kill, Glyph of Warding, Conjure Spells. Heat Metal is one.

Heat Metal isn't just good for doing damage, but for preventing it also. Melee attacker with a sword, you can heat up and make them drop it. I ran a Warlock/Sorc with Quickened Heat metal, the EB'd the sword away. I've also had it done to me, but my DM forgot that he gave me an artefact spear made of unbreakable Obsidian and I was running a Barbarian who was running around in Dragonscale Breastplate so didn't get affected by it.

[Calivar]

The damage isn't that severe (on average 9 damage), at least for third level characters and cr3 monsters, then again, it is great to add that to whatever other damage you can deal with your action in later rounds. The main kicker though is the concentration requirement, which keeps you from using most of the really good spells, as well as the possibility of your concentration being broken, losing the spell, and somewhat wasting the round of casting depending on how you look at it. if used intelligently, it is a nice asset, however, it does have counters and drawbacks that need to be taken into account.

[some guy]

The no-save is what the spell makes excellent, just knowing the spell will do something is great. The bonus action on later rounds is also very good.

But the damage is quite slow, a bard will probably pick shatter for pure damage.
A druid has a lot of concentration spells, a level 3 or 4 druid might use it, but from level 5 there's just too many concentration spells.

I've used it a bit with a low-charisma bard, but my druid in Princes of the apocalypse hardly ever uses it (there's a lot of humanoids wearing no armor or non-metal-armor in there).

It's nice, but I've encountered it less as a dm than I expected. In my experience, it fits the perfect spell-niche; good, but not used to death.

[RSP]

Melee attacker with a sword, you can heat up and make them drop it. I ran a Warlock/Sorc with Quickened Heat metal, the EB'd the sword away.

RAW you can't EB an object, though I'd understand if a table ruled it can work on objects.

[Contrast]

Spells for a DM have a different weight than when used against a player. See Disintegrate/Finger of Death, Power Word Kill, Glyph of Warding, Conjure Spells. Heat Metal is one.

Heat Metal isn't just good for doing damage, but for preventing it also. Melee attacker with a sword, you can heat up and make them drop it. I ran a Warlock/Sorc with Quickened Heat metal, the EB'd the sword away. I've also had it done to me, but my DM forgot that he gave me an artefact spear made of unbreakable Obsidian and I was running a Barbarian who was running around in Dragonscale Breastplate so didn't get affected by it.

Are you arguing Heat Metal is better for NPCs than for PCs? I'm not sure I agree. Firstly - if the PCs are fighting any main combatant wearing metal armour this spell likely just wins the encounter with minimal damage to the party and is highly efficient in doing so. Due to the effect the spell remains a go to option late into the game. NPCs typically don't need to worry about efficiency as they're likely only going to fight a couple of rounds of combat before either fleeing or getting killed - they don't need to manage resources like PCs do generally. Higher 'level' NPCs need to do as much as they can as quick as they can. Heat Metal is good, particularly at low levels but I wouldn't expect a level 10 PC to be phased by having an enemy throw Heat Metal their way while it still remains a very viable tool in the kit of a level 10 PC.

[Saiga]

Though for NPCs, the situational use of Heat Metal goes out the window - the DM knows if the party are running susceptible targets or not.

[Vaz]

Are you arguing Heat Metal is better for NPCs than for PCs? I'm not sure I agree. Firstly - if the PCs are fighting any main combatant wearing metal armour this spell likely just wins the encounter with minimal damage to the party and is highly efficient in doing so. Due to the effect the spell remains a go to option late into the game. NPCs typically don't need to worry about efficiency as they're likely only going to fight a couple of rounds of combat before either fleeing or getting killed - they don't need to manage resources like PCs do generally. Higher 'level' NPCs need to do as much as they can as quick as they can. Heat Metal is good, particularly at low levels but I wouldn't expect a level 10 PC to be phased by having an enemy throw Heat Metal their way while it still remains a very viable tool in the kit of a level 10 PC.
You can disagree, but you'd be wrong.

A DM grants the party equipment. A lot of that equipment can be metal. A DM also chooses the opponent. It's no good facing a creature without metallic gear. PC's inevitably do have metallic stuff.

Useless fighting a wolf. Less useless against a Cleric in full plate.

[Saiga]

Concentration and being single-target means it's unlikely to wreck your party, but it will probably make one of your martials (or Cleric, I guess) feel incredibly useless for an encounter.

That probably shouldn't be something you're oft in need of, though.

[Vaz]

Having a primary damage dealer take 5d8 no save damage a turn simply because they're holding their magic weapon of kill stuff dead is a good reason to use it.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

PC's inevitably do have metallic stuff

While it's true that PCs are significantly more likely to have metal equipment, I wouldn't quite say inevitable. A Monk or Druid, in particular, might not be carrying any.

[Vaz]

True. Which is why you use one of your other dozen combat spells to target them, perhaps one that doesn't require your concentration if you still wish to neuter a fighter without using your own Tripper/Grappler/Restraineer like a T-Rex, Water Elemental, Ettercap, Gorgon or Djinni.

[CrackedChair]

Well, as I see it now, the spell is indeed scary, but if I am not mistaken, only enemies that are Bards or Druids can really take this, which seems to not be so frightening, seeing as you are unlikely going to run into one. Of course, monsters could have any spells, so I still need to be careful, I think.

[Finger6842]

So far, 6 levels and never cast it. Everything we fight is either a beast or not wearing metal or welding weapons with wooden components. On the rare occasion that a creature has a metal weapon they are weak enough that direct attacks are far more efficient. It's almost like the DM knows I have that particular spell.

[Theodoxus]

It has a 60' range, and while it's not implicit in the spell, I'd rule you have to be able to see the target to maintain the bonus action heat. Thus, simplest solution, if I'm targeted with HM is to find a way to get total cover from the caster - or move out of 60' range of them. Since they probably didn't cast it while in melee with me, it should be relatively easy to dash away (since I'm at disad for attacking anyway, a 'wasted' round of combat isn't that great a price to pay). Sure, if the DM is a jerk and just uses every slot available to lock me down, as I re-engage and disengage from combat round after round... well, they're just being a jerk...

[nickl_2000]

Depends on the situation. In a city campaign, I was able to lock down a Big Bad with several castings of the spell. The Evil cleric had to cast Dispel Magic to remove the Heat Metal on his armor, thus using up higher level slots and keeping him from smiting us.

Also, we ran into a metal construct. Heat Metal was meant for them

[Contrast]

You can disagree, but you'd be wrong.

A DM grants the party equipment. A lot of that equipment can be metal. A DM also chooses the opponent. It's no good facing a creature without metallic gear. PC's inevitably do have metallic stuff.

Useless fighting a wolf. Less useless against a Cleric in full plate.

Having a primary damage dealer take 5d8 no save damage a turn simply because they're holding their magic weapon of kill stuff dead is a good reason to use it.

To do 5d8 damage is a 5th level spell. So no animate objects. No antilife shell (if you really want to shut the martial down). No conjured elemental. No 4 target hold person. If you're mixing and matching spell selections thats a 10d6 fireball (35 fail, 17 pass) on everyone compared to 22 to one. I'm not saying its bad, the rider effect and bonus action ongoing damage is very good - I'm just saying I don't think its significantly better in the hands of an NPC than a PC.

I concede that if your DM never pits you against decent foes who use metal equipment its a rubbish spell for PCs. I can only say that I've never played in such a game *shrugs* presumably our experiences differ in that regard :smallconfused:

[Hudsonian]

I've seen it in better use as a utility spell. It was used to get away from temporary imprisonment, and also to get rid of a bridge, or render a ladder un-climbable.

[rbstr]

So far, 6 levels and never cast it. Everything we fight is either a beast or not wearing metal or welding weapons with wooden components. On the rare occasion that a creature has a metal weapon they are weak enough that direct attacks are far more efficient. It's almost like the DM knows I have that particular spell.

This happened to us. Used it once to great effect. Nothing ever wore plate again. **** move IMO.

[Willie the Duck]

True. Which is why you use one of your other dozen combat spells to target them,

There is the crux. If you do not have a dozen other combat spells to choose from, then a 'rarely used, but powerful when you get to' spell makes sense. That makes this great for a high wisdom, single classes druid. For my 6th level lore bard with a grand total of 9 (+2 from magic secrets) spells known, it seems to have been a poor choice. In fact, the number of times I have looked at the battlefield, looked at my spell list, and said, "Okay, I guess I shoot my one arrow" (because no spell I had was appropriate) is the primary reason I am thinking I will MC for 2 levels of warlock.

[Crusher]

It's almost like the DM knows I have that particular spell.

Heh, sometimes that happens. I was running a Hunter Ranger/War Cleric vHuman archer with Sharpshooter in Strahd a while back. The party was level 4 or so and going after the druids and barbarians on the hill (the party was doing well, so the DM had buffed the druids and he expected them to give us a tough fight). I rolled high on initiative, went first, cast Hail of Thorns (with a 2nd level slot) and rolled a couple natural 20s. I managed to kill a druid and a barbarian, plus severely injure a second barbarian in one turn, thanks to them being tightly grouped up (allowing Horde Breaker as well as Hail of Thorns to hit all 3 of them).

We just wrapped up the campaign last week (around level 10) and, in the sessions I was able to make, the party NEVER again faced enemies that stood within 5 feet of each other. I didn't really mind (the archer was still a buzzsaw, who I eventually started playing more as a buffer/support character to avoid overshadowing everyone else. The party worked very well together, but most of the party wasn't particularly well optimized for combat), and joked about it to the DM who smiled and said that "word had gotten around".

[SaurOps]

Depends on the situation. In a city campaign, I was able to lock down a Big Bad with several castings of the spell. The Evil cleric had to cast Dispel Magic to remove the Heat Metal on his armor, thus using up higher level slots and keeping him from smiting us.

Also, we ran into a metal construct. Heat Metal was meant for them

It's slowly melting this way!

[BurgerBeast]

Also, we ran into a metal construct. Heat Metal was meant for them

Am I missing something? I would rule that the construct takes zero damage from the spell, but can now use its body to inflict damage on the PCs.

The spell doesn't damage the metal objects themselves, as is seen by the fact that it doesn't destroy weapons and armour.

[nickl_2000]

Am I missing something? I would rule that the construct takes zero damage from the spell, but can now use its body to inflict damage on the PCs.

The spell doesn't damage the metal objects themselves, as is seen by the fact that it doesn't destroy weapons and armour.

It's apparently a hotly contested debate. Our DM allowed it, and it was super effective in that case. I can see it go either way, but since I was a player and it helped me, I good with the way he ruled.

[Easy_Lee]

I recall fear of this spell being used as an argument against strength based characters. In a world where everyone knew this spell, surely we'd see a lot more quarterstaff users, monks, and blade pact warlocks running around.

It's a niche spell. Few enough enemies in the game use weapons or armor that it isn't important in all campaigns. If a DM uses it against the player, watch out. That DM will probably also use rampant silence against casters, oozes and other tremorsense enemies against rogues, and so on.

[Willie the Duck]

Am I missing something? I would rule that the construct takes zero damage from the spell, but can now use its body to inflict damage on the PCs.

The spell doesn't damage the metal objects themselves, as is seen by the fact that it doesn't destroy weapons and armour.

There's nothing to miss. The rules only allow you to target metal objects, not metal creatures*, so whatever happens, it is a DM ruling.

*Yet it would be crazy-level suspension-of-belief breaking nutty to think that heat metal wouldn't work on an automata just because it was in the monster manual and not the equipment list

[Unoriginal]

There's nothing to miss. The rules only allow you to target metal objects, not metal creatures*, so whatever happens, it is a DM ruling.

*Yet it would be crazy-level suspension-of-belief breaking nutty to think that heat metal wouldn't work on an automata just because it was in the monster manual and not the equipment list

Heat Metal doesn't damage the metal, so at best you have now a red hot automata.

Also, Red Hot Automata could be the title of a Metal song or album.

[Vaz]

To do 5d8 damage is a 5th level spell. So no animate objects. No antilife shell (if you really want to shut the martial down). No conjured elemental. No 4 target hold person. If you're mixing and matching spell selections thats a 10d6 fireball (35 fail, 17 pass) on everyone compared to 22 to one. I'm not saying its bad, the rider effect and bonus action ongoing damage is very good - I'm just saying I don't think its significantly better in the hands of an NPC than a PC.

I concede that if your DM never pits you against decent foes who use metal equipment its a rubbish spell for PCs. I can only say that I've never played in such a game *shrugs* presumably our experiences differ in that regard :smallconfused:

I think the reason why you're confused is that you think I was saying that it was a better spell to use than others. I wasn't. But it's better in the hands of an NPC than it is in the hands of a player, because it's harder as a player to get resistance/immunity to fire, it's more likely to be able to target the PC's than it is the NPC, because there are a lot more none-traditional weapon users in the employ of the DM than there are in the hands of the party. There is also much lower opportunity cost to a DM Redshirt character. Also, DM controlled creatures can often have a higher HP which means that the damage isn't going to be AS effective - especially when there are things which allow greater damage.

All in all, Heat Metal is better in the hands of an NPC than it is in when used by the party. Like the aforementioned spells.

[Willie the Duck]

Heat Metal doesn't damage the metal, so at best you have now a red hot automata.

Heat metal doesn't damage to objects, which is the only thing the are listed as effecting. What happens when you cast it on creatures? D&D (outside of 3e) has routinely been pretty agnostic on whether non-creatures have hp (in that they do when they need to, and don't when they don't). So, what happens when you cast it one something that clearly does have hp? That pretty much calls for a DM to step in.

As for realism, whether having a red-hot automata would damage it or not, it really depends on how you picture them. Real world robots or robot arms (in a factory, etc.) absolutely have a heat tolerance threshold you don't want to exceed (or even a fan vent you don't want to accidentally cover. If you picture them more as solid (metal golem-like), or more automotive-level mechanics, then they would have different heat tolerances.

Again, this is part of the game that rule-wise is off the map (conveniently in the section labeled "here be dragons." :smallbiggrin:).

[RSP]

RAW Heat Metal isn't capable of targeting constructs or any creature: only manufactured metal objects.

[MaxWilson]

RAW you can't EB an object, though I'd understand if a table ruled it can work on objects.

By strict RAW you don't have to EB an object--you just need to make your beam of crackling energy streak "toward" a creature. The creature doesn't have to be the target. A beam of crackling energy which streaks toward a creature and then strikes its sword, knocking the sword away, is completely legal by RAW.


A beam of crackling energy streaks toward a creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 force damage.

The spell creates more than one beam when you reach higher levels: two beams at 5th level, three beams at 11th level, and four beams at 17th level. You can direct the beams at the same target or at different ones. Make a separate attack roll for each beam.

[JackPhoenix]

There's nothing to miss. The rules only allow you to target metal objects, not metal creatures*, so whatever happens, it is a DM ruling.

*Yet it would be crazy-level suspension-of-belief breaking nutty to think that heat metal wouldn't work on an automata just because it was in the monster manual and not the equipment list

Why? Mending can repair broken bone (an object), but not if the bone is part of a living creature. Many spells target creatures, but not objects (Eldritch Blast being example). Why does it break suspension of disbelief when the magic that turns pile of metal into iron golem also prevents it from being targeted by object-only spells? It's not like magic already doesn't do lot of illogical things because it's magic.

[Vaz]

A bone is always part of a living creature. It just may be currently detached.

[rbstr]

RAW Heat Metal isn't capable of targeting constructs or any creature: only manufactured metal objects.
Ok..but what is a construct but a manufactured object? Something that's been constructed, if you will.

[MaxWilson]

Ok..but what is a construct but a manufactured object? Something that's been constructed, if you will.

A construct is an object that's been imbued with life force.

[Theodoxus]

A construct is an object that's been imbued with life force.

A living creature is an object that's not been dis-imbued of life force.

[CursedRhubarb]

Some fun things with Heat Metal and UA classes include a Forge Cleric in plate being immune to fire so they become a nightmare Grappler when HM is cast on them. And the Favored Soul Sorcerer is able to Twin it.

[SaurOps]

Some fun things with Heat Metal and UA classes include a Forge Cleric in plate being immune to fire so they become a nightmare Grappler when HM is cast on them. And the Favored Soul Sorcerer is able to Twin it.

That makes me picture an incident where the suits of armor for both parties in the grapple begin to melt together, if only slightly...

[RSP]

By strict RAW you don't have to EB an object--you just need to make your beam of crackling energy streak "toward" a creature. The creature doesn't have to be the target. A beam of crackling energy which streaks toward a creature and then strikes its sword, knocking the sword away, is completely legal by RAW.

Not sure what green is supposed to represent in posts, so we might have different ways of selecting targets.


Ok..but what is a construct but a manufactured object? Something that's been constructed, if you will.


A construct is an object that's been imbued with life force.

A Construct is a creature, distinctly different than an object, particularly in terms of targeting and game effects (if wondering the difference between a Sentient Object and a Construct, or what makes something one or the other, well, you got me there).

[Finger6842]

That makes me picture an incident where the suits of armor for both parties in the grapple begin to melt together, if only slightly...

I would let you do it a few times before the metal becomes brittle and if there's water nearby to drench you with the armor might shatter, damaging you and your grapple friend.

[Willie the Duck]

Why? Mending can repair broken bone (an object), but not if the bone is part of a living creature. Many spells target creatures, but not objects (Eldritch Blast being example). Why does it break suspension of disbelief when the magic that turns pile of metal into iron golem also prevents it from being targeted by object-only spells? It's not like magic already doesn't do lot of illogical things because it's magic.

There's not going to be a right answer. I'm presenting an opinion, mostly on what I think my players would say ("What do you mean heat metal doesn't work on it? It's a solid metal [something-or-other]!"). And if we don't allow targeting of it, the rest of the discussion is moot. But my point is, if we do, there are no rules to cover what happens, so we're playing by ear regardless of how we let if go.

[Contrast]

A construct is an object that's been imbued with life force.

See the animate object spell. You animate objects and they become creatures which are also constructs.

[BurgerBeast]

There's nothing to miss. The rules only allow you to target metal objects, not metal creatures*, so whatever happens, it is a DM ruling.

*Yet it would be crazy-level suspension-of-belief breaking nutty to think that heat metal wouldn't work on an automata just because it was in the monster manual and not the equipment list

So, the lesson here is to animate your armour and weapons (or otherwise turn them into constructs - my knowledge of the possibilities is pretty limited but I'm sure someone will come up with a list of ways). That way, they're immune to heat metal. Lol.

(I'm not entirely serious, here... just playing along with the sentiment expressed under your asterisk)