Sell me on making a Rogue for 5e.

[CrackedChair]

So for my next sheet, I was at a loss at what to make next, but I felt like making a Rogue for a second.

Generally, I liked Martial classes, but the Rogue seems like a class not very suited to hand-to-hand combat. Sneak attack is one thing that allowed them to really pile on some pain, so I thought of making one just for the factor alone, plus the utility.

I wasn't too sure on how to go about it, or what is in it for me that makes this a great pick. I think I just stood away from it cause it just screamed 'edgy' for most Rogues (Heck, it had a Drow in black armor for the Rogue character itself on the PHB, so it must have given me that first thought).

What I really wanted to know is how I can be a Rogue without being assumed that I am going to run off with the party's fortunes or be an edgy character or be something like a criminal or criminal-like. It looks fun! It's just the context of the class profession and what it entails dissuaded me from making one for real.

So, could somebody inform me of the joys of a Rogue? I'd greatly appreciate it!

[Ninja_Prawn]

What I really wanted to know is how I can be a Rogue without being assumed that I am going to run off with the party's fortunes

Invest in charisma; put expertise in Deception.

No, but, I mean, that specific thing is a metagame issue. If your table isn't okay with PvP, then don't steal from them. Easy. As long as you all buy into the concept, they have no reason not to trust you.

Besides, not every rogue is a thief (by habit or archetype). This is clear from the swashbuckler, assassin and investigator archetypes, none of which are things that encourage disruptive play. Dashing swashbucklers, in particular, are completely free from criminal or edgelord associations. An (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474917-Threats-to-the-Nentir-Vale-Keep-on-the-Shadowfell-(5e-IC)&p=20294515&viewfull=1#post20294515) example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474917-Threats-to-the-Nentir-Vale-Keep-on-the-Shadowfell-(5e-IC)&p=20299282&viewfull=1#post20299282). Or you could go for the cutesy type of rogue, in the mold of Imoen from Baldur's Gate. Another (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?440894-Adventures-in-Pyreed-IC&p=19831054&viewfull=1#post19831054) example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?440894-Adventures-in-Pyreed-IC&p=19835733&viewfull=1#post19835733).

[Isaire]

Well, don't introduce your character as a thief then..? If you go around calling yourself a rogue, people might be suspicious I guess :P

It mostly is just how you choose to fluff it. I want to make a travelling doctor - used to work as a surgeon on the field of battle, fast hands from thief + medicine kit to fluff as how practiced he is at dealing with the injured. Could go v.human and take healer as the first feat, maybe even expertise in medicine though that is a little wasted.

Why can he pick locks? If someone needs medical attention, it's better to pick the lock than kick the door down.. or something like that. Maybe it's just a result of having very dextrous hands. Sneak attack? Well, he isn't a great fighter, but he knows bodies well enough to know where to hit to deal damage.

Even within the "criminal" you could be lots of things. A spy, a smuggler, a petty thief. Maybe your thing is rescuing prisoners, more a commando soldier. World is your oyster really!

[smcmike]

Rogues don't have to be amoral creeps.

Also, they can do just fine in at hand-to-hand combat. Sneak attack keeps their damage competitive, and uncanny dodge and evasion are good defensive abilities. A bit of multiclassing can help if you want to up the toughness factor - I like Barbarian/rogue, which can make you a super athlete.

[solidork]

In the campaign where I played an Arcane Trickster, my Rogue was the level headed voice of reason. (One of my bonds was "My companions are too reckless, someone must temper their fiery hearts.") I built him as an occult investigator more than anything (14 Int, 14 Wis, expertise in insight/investigation/arcana, Ritual Caster: Wizard).

One of the things that I liked was that I was equally effective with my bow as I was with my rapier. People like to talk about using disengage to flit in and out of combat, but I honestly never really bothered. That was partly because the whole party was pretty squishy, but also because I wanted multiple people to attack me to get the most out of casting Shield.

[PloxBox]

Personally, I've always wanted to go Thief archetype for the rogue with a utility belt of things to throw around as a Bonus Action.

But, that aside, the main thing to remember is that the class and its abilities are just mechanical things. You can refluff/reflavour any of the classes into almost anything you want. I saw someone mention that they use the Barbarian class Rage feature as a honed sense of determination and focus that improved the character's reflexes and strength and vigor. Otherwise, the character was very much a charismatic fellow.

Swashbuckler archetype are basically a pirate class, but could also be your Han Solo smuggler classes.

Masterminds are almost Warlord-lite IMO.

Assassins don't /have/ to be super angsty, anti-social psychopaths. Look at Vax from Critical Role. He might have some angst, but he is someone who genuinely tries to do the right thing by his friends and the world around him.

Hell, you could even argue that the Thief archetype is the best thing to have for a Batman-style character with the aforementioned utility belt of gadgets.

[clash]

Sherlock homles from the movies with robert downy jr is an excellent example as well of a smart rogue who just knows where to hit people.

[Specter]

Somethings you need cleared out:

1) The Rogue is absolutely a martial. The fact that it has only one attack shouldn't distract you from the fact that they can deal as much damage as any decent martial (or maybe more), and that with features like Evasion and Uncanny Dodge they will sometimes outlast other martials.

2) Not all rogues are thieves or liars. You could create a captain of the Royal Guard (Swashbuckler - Noble background), a member of a religious cult (Assassin - Acolyte background), or even an antique treasure hunter (Thief - Sage background). Don't be tied down to one archetype.

[warmachine]

I play a Rogue (Burglar), which suggests a backstory of a thief and thieves are bad people who shouldn't be in a party of good aligned characters. If you want thievery skills, make a thief backstory but include a Damascene conversion. Such a conversion doesn't have to be religious, it can be just philosophical. In my case, a burglar who didn't care he worked for a pirate crew, including slavery, because 'let the monsters take the hindmost' then he realised he was one of those monsters.

Any contradiction between current attitude and presumption of class abilities can be explained by "I changed my mind."

[Vaz]

"Re: Sell me on making a Rogue for 5e."

Do you want to play a Rogue? Then make a Rogue.

Simple. Don't play something you don't want to play. Play something you want to play.

[mephnick]

Man you make a lot of threads.

For what it's worth I think rogue is the best designed main class in the game. I'm not sold on the subclasses totally, especially assassin, but they all provide neat options that complement a really solid main progression.

[Willie the Duck]

The idea that rogues=steal from their party hasn't been a thing for at least 17 years, probably 28 (when gp=xp ended and thus thieves weren't compelled to steal from their party to level).

As to the joys of rogue? You know how some edition complainers suggest that martial classes have one thing to do, "run up and hit things?" Well, the rogue is a great example of that not being the case. They are a thinking game/puzzle/tactical martial character. They are high-skill-level/high-reward-for-said-skill-level class. When you get them up and running, they probably outshine most of the other melee characters. The challenge is to keep them both 1) up and running in this sneak-attack mode, and 2) alive. Since most of the methods you have to address these are competing for resources, this is a challenge, and a glorious one at that.

[JAL_1138]

Even a Thief subclass rogue doesn't have to be an edgelord who steals from the party. Thry have a particular set of skills that's given the term "thief," but the idea of the "noble thief" is a frequent trope (e.g., Robin Hood), but their skillset can apply to treasure-hunters (Locke from FF6 being a prime example) or spies and other covert operatives easily. Or just anyone generally skilled and with a preference being sneaky (usually) or fighting in a tag-team kind of deal. (Swashbucklers don't even need the tag-team in melee). For that matter, Bilbo Baggins was a burglar (according to Gandalf, at least).

Sneak Attack is generally balanced in terms of DPR. It won't match a Battlemaster with GWM or Sharpshooter on a burst round, but it holds up perfectly fine, particularly in conjunction with Evasion, Cunning Action, and Uncanny Dodge to mitigate damage and increase utility, hiding, and mobility, and considering that it's resource-free. It's rare that a rogue can't get SA off somehow with a bit of tactical consideration, and they're balanced on the assumption they'll get it consistently. And when it crits it can be brutal.

[2D8HP]

Why?

Because AWESOME!

Expertise? AWESOME!

Sneak Attack? AWESOME!

Cunning Action? AWESOME!

I do recommend starting as a Fighter first though, and grab Archery Fighting Style, then Rogue for at least three levels, unless you really want one extra skill, and Thieves tools as starting equipment.

Here's how to play a Rogue:

Get another PC with high AC and/or HP (Barbarians are perfect) to stand next to the foe then crossbow bolt to its eye SNEAK ATTACK!

When you get to a 3rd level in Rogue, buckle-a-swash and stab it in the eye SNEAK ATTACK with your rapier, then CUNNING ACTION yourself out of melee range.

Rinse, repeat until the end of the campaign

See!

Perfect rules mastery!

This is what I like:

Start as a v-human, half elf or wood elf.

V-human for a feat (a good choice if you don't go anywhere dark), otherwise half-elf, or Wood Elf (which is nice for Mask of the Wild)..

Half-elf is good for +2 to CHA, which you want when you take the Swashbuckler subclass (for better Initiative).
.
Just don't let the rest of the party convince you to "scout ahead", especially at first level.

Simple, but effective, and you get to imagine doing deeds like a Douglas Fairbanks or Errol Flynn character!


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iEYpwrWRiQU

[Belltent]

Not to be that guy, but if you read the descriptions in the PHB you'll see they don't really operate under the assumption that you are a chaotic neutral/evil klepto/edgelord. It suggests investigators, treasure hunters, tradesmen, inquistors, magicians, and that's not even touching the options for the best archetype, swashbuckler. Any of those could just be normal people.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Any of those could just be normal people.

Rogues are people too!

At the end of the day, your class doesn't prescribe how your character behaves (unless it contains tenets), and you're basically free as a player to get creative. That's one of the best things about d&d really, that you can use your imagination like that.

[N810]

Swashbuckler!


https://youtu.be/YY4cnMmo9qw
(acton starts at 1:10)

[2D8HP]

Rogues are people too!


:confused:

I thought that was Soylent Green?


At the end of the day, your class doesn't prescribe how your character behaves (unless it contains tenets), and you're basically free as a player to get creative. That's one of the best things about d&d really, that you can use your imagination like that.


Well if it's any help here's how I imagine each of the PHB classes behaving:

Barbarian: Great Axe to the eye!

Bard: Pleasing to the eye, rapier to the gut!

Cleric:Mace to the eye!

Druid: Claw to the eye!

Fighter: Crossbow bolt to the eye!

Monk: Dart to the eye!

Paladin: Longsword to the eye!

Ranger: Arrow to the eye!

Rogue: Bolt to the eye, dagger to the back!

Sorcerer: Firebolt to the eye!

Warlock: Eldrich Blast to the eye!

Wizard: Fireball to the whole face! (Wizards are O.P)

Rogue's use Cunning Action/Disengage/Fancy Footwork to avoid getting objects in their eyes, thus Rogues are the superior class.

They may be other aspects of the classes, but I think that sums it up.




:wink:

[Unoriginal]

Swashbuckler!


https://youtu.be/YY4cnMmo9qw
(acton starts at 1:10)

Inigo Montoya is more a Champion Fighter.

[2D8HP]

Inigo Montoya is more a Champion Fighter.


Fighter/Rogue multiclass, just like 9/10th of my PC's (the hair hides that Inigo is a half-elf).

[N810]

^ where's armor ?

ok maybe he has a couple levels in fighter...
but his character just oozes swashbuckler,
I mean the hair, the mustache, the fancy footwork, the rapier...
the cunning word play, all that Charisma ?

[2D8HP]

^ where's armor ?


Multiclass with Barbarian or Monk?

(But that is a LEATHER vest/waistcoat)

Also...

AWESOME!

[Vaz]

He feels more like a Druid to me. Wait, no, a Tome Warlock beholden to a Fiend. Or maybe a Bladesinger?

[coolAlias]

If you make a rogue, your character will be a coward, always hiding in the shadows and leaving his friends to die.

If you make a rogue, he will only be good for setting off traps and opening doors.

If you make a rogue, he will be killed by the party for constantly stealing from them.

If you make a rogue and he somehow survives, he will be thrown in the dungeon by the first city guard he meets because your character is well known as a scummy thief. You may then be allowed to play through an escape sequence, but will find your way back to a cell eventually.

Those are the only character traits you are allowed to have when you take even a single level of the Rogue class.

Any personality traits or behavior deviating from the above is to be met with scorn, derision, and a quick death.

[N810]

Multiclass with Barbarian or Monk?

(But that is a LEATHER vest/waistcoat)

Also...

AWESOME!


https://youtu.be/WDlZ_SXx5gA?t=3m30s

[2D8HP]

He feels more like a Druid to me.


Nuh-uh!

Rapier not scimitar!


Wait, no, a Tome Warlock beholden to a Fiend.


Inigo is only beholder to bring death to the man with a six fingered hand who killed his father!



Or maybe a Bladesinger?


Um... I'll have to ponder that one.




If you make a rogue, your character will be a coward, always hiding in the shadows and leaving his friends to die....

Yes, but what are the downsides?

[coolAlias]

If you make a rogue, your character will be a coward, always hiding in the shadows and leaving his friends to die....Yes, but what are the downsides?
Hm... you run out of friends?

[Waterdeep Merch]

A lot of new players are attracted to the rogue class, which inevitably leads to a lot of annoyance because rogues are among the most difficult classes in the game to play.

They're all about high risk, high reward gameplay. You'll innately be in difficult situations where one false step could get you killed. If this isn't true, you're not doing your job very well and are probably a liability to your party. Don't think you earn your keep with lockpicking, the fighter has a very big hammer for that.

A good rogue is a scout, a clever scoundrel, a daredevil, and is impossible to lock down. They'll run and hide, always one bad stealth/good perception check away from things getting hairy, and must use the terrain to their advantage. If someone's likely to repurpose traps or set their own, it's the rogue. Your abilities really lean towards all this, making you the best at doing it. And as mentioned before, it's all horribly dangerous.

I'd recommend not playing rogues if you're new to the game. When you feel you're ready, take a good look at the character sheet you make for them, give it a kiss, and tell it goodbye. You must be willing to take risks and fail. They are often a flame that burns too brightly, ash before you even realize they are gone.

[Tiber]

A 5e character that I played in the past was an Elven Arcane Trickster. A rogue isn't exactly a fighter or barbarian, but with high dex (and with a few exceptions, why wouldn't you have high dex) they can do pretty well in melee range. The Shield spell helps even more. You're right though that sneak attack is important. Their damage is underwhelming without it, and unless they dual-wield or multi-class they only ever have one chance to hit each turn. Don't forget that sneak attack applies to bows as well, so a rogue can be pretty powerful at range.

As for characterization, that's entirely up to you. My character, if asked, would say, "Yes, I was a highwayman. It was a series of business transactions, where you surrendered your property and were free to go. It was just like any other job for me, though I'm sure my "customers" would feel differently. As for stealing from my group - why risk ruining steady long term income for a few gold? Being an adventurer is already far more profitable than the alternative. If I were to betray this group, I would do so in a way that they would not be able to come after me. Given that these people are experienced fighters, the reward would have to be truly exceptional to be worth the risk." Sure, I wasn't exactly breaking the rogue = criminal mold, but edgy my character was not.

[2D8HP]

Hm... you run out of friends?


Friends?

Well you do need them to stand next to the foes.

Getting friends is what taverns are for!

Circle of life: Lose friends, get gold, bring gold to tavern, get more gold.




...When you feel you're ready, take a good look at the character sheet you make for them, give it a kiss, and tell it goodbye. You must be willing to take risks and fail. They are often a flame that burns too brightly, ash before you even realize they are gone.


Rogue survival 101:

Don't scout ahead!

Follow from the shadows instead.

Your role is not to find out the dangers to come, your role is to wait for other PC's to stand next to dangers that you shoot arrows at!

[Sigreid]

Pretty much what most of the above have said. The Rogue class hasn't been the thief class in a long time. While thieves are usually rogues, the rogue archetype is simply the adventurer that accomplishes things with skill, finesse and creativity instead of brute force (barbarian/fighter), divine intervention (druid, cleric, paladin) or magic (sorcerer, warlock, wizard).

If you don't want to be a thief, take the noble background and go with the gentleman adventurer.

[coolAlias]

Pretty much what most of the above have said. The Rogue class hasn't been the thief class in a long time. While thieves are usually rogues, the rogue archetype is simply the adventurer that accomplishes things with skill, finesse and creativity instead of brute force (barbarian/fighter), divine intervention (druid, cleric, paladin) or magic (sorcerer, warlock, wizard).

If you don't want to be a thief, take the noble background and go with the gentleman adventurer.
And if you do want to be a thief, you don't have to be a Rogue. We have a Dex-based fighter with the criminal background in our party who is always pickpocketing NPCs and generally being sneaky. Everyone is always surprised when they are reminded that she is, in fact, a fighter and not a rogue.

[warmachine]

Joy is a subjective term, so you'd get better answers if you expanded on what you considered joyous. Nonetheless, playing martial classes suggests you don't do resource management. Not a problem for Rogue, pretty much all abilities, except Arcane Trickster spells, are at-will and no resource tracking.

If you have the following attitudes, how Rogue can be joyous.

Combat slaying - Sneak Attack is good and Cunning Action, Evasion and Uncanny Dodge means the enemy have trouble dealing with you but you're a glass cannon. Joyous if you like opportunity striking but not if you want to be an unstoppable tank.
Combat tactics - Zip around the battlefield like a roadrunner and stab that enemy mage but most other classes have better battlefield control options. Not joyous.
Mission driving - Lots of skill and tool proficiencies with Expertise. Joyous, especially for scouting.
Party support - No resources. Not joyous.
Impressive stunts - Has skills and Expertise but I've seen Monks do better. Still joyous.

[2D8HP]

And if you do want to be a thief, you don't have to be a Rogue. We have a Dex-based fighter with the criminal background in our party who is always pickpocketing NPCs and generally being sneaky. Everyone is always surprised when they are reminded that she is, in fact, a fighter and not a rogue.

High Elf (Cantrip, Longsword, Longbow proficiency), with Charlatan, Criminal, or Urchin background is like an old D&D Fighter/Magic-User/Thief, without even picking a class yet!

Use the SCAG variant, and you can play a Half-elf but still have the Cantrip or the weapon proficiencies!

What's not to like?

I really don't understand some Playgrounders complaints that "5e doesn't have enough options".

There seem to be plenty of AWESOME options to me!

Noble background Elf or SCAG Half-Elf, Rogue class = Skilled, with sweet starting gold, and able to shoot fire out of fingertips!

Hot damn!

[coolAlias]

High Elf (Cantrip, Longsword, Longbow proficiency), with Charlatan, Criminal, or Urchin background is like an old D&D Fighter/Magic-User/Thief, without even picking a class yet!
And if you're really old-school, you wouldn't pick a class and you'd just level up as Elf. :D

I totally agree about 5e - backgrounds are a really nice way to make your character much more than just their class. I do wish some of the classes / subclasses were designed a little differently, but a little re-fluffing goes a long way in 5e.

[Willie the Duck]

And if you're really old-school, you wouldn't pick a class and you'd just level up as Elf. :D.

You are aware that elf-as-class was introduced in B/X in 1981, a full 7 years after D&D was first published, and a good 4 years after the iconic AD&D F/M/T, right?

[coolAlias]

You are aware that elf-as-class was introduced in B/X in 1981, a full 7 years after D&D was first published, and a good 4 years after the iconic AD&D F/M/T, right?
Nah, I only got into it in AD&D 2e, so anything before that is super old-school to me. :P

[2D8HP]

You are aware that elf-as-class was introduced in B/X in 1981, a full 7 years after D&D was first published, and a good 4 years after the iconic AD&D F/M/T, right?

Ah but the 1975 Greyhawk supplement that introduced the Thief class had Elves either be Fighter/Magic-User/Thieves or single class as Thieves (previously they could alternate as Fighters or Magic-Users, but had to decide which at the beginning of the adventure).

A sweet part of the Thief was that they were no level limits for non-humans (remember those?).

[Willie the Duck]

Nah, I only got into it in AD&D 2e, so anything before that is super old-school to me. :P

Well, that's fine, it's not a competition, but then trying to out-old-school 2d8 seems silly.



High Elf (Cantrip, Longsword, Longbow proficiency), with Charlatan, Criminal, or Urchin background is like an old D&D Fighter/Magic-User/Thief, without even picking a class yet!


Ooh, cleric!... but was type?

[Vaz]

I really don't understand some Playgrounders complaints that "5e doesn't have enough options".

There seem to be plenty of AWESOME options to me!
Did you play 3.5, where you had 18 ways to play the same concept, each with different mechanics? Incarnum, Spellcasting (Divine or Arcane), Initiator Psionic Mind Control to hide from others, Magic to make yourself Invisible, Spell Stealing, Polymorphing, Trapmaking, Shadow Pouncing, Undead/Plant/Construct Killing, Iaijutsu, Sudden Strike or Sneak Attacks.

Sure, some were maybe even considered "trap" options and you could optomize in a better way.

Because 5E is the same class with a few dips elsewhere to try and get something new to do. Once you've played one roll, you've played them. Except you have can maybe take Warlock for Devil's Sight, or Monk for Shadows and Teleports. And once you choose one, you are locked from the others.

And there is no end game content. Whereas most games I played in 3.5 played best starting at 10-12. Games lower than that didn't have particularly interesting monsters and relied on swingy dice rolls.

5e caps out at those levels. Not enough end game adventures, monsters, or gear. Not enough stuff to spent hundreds of thousands of gold on. Not enough mechanics to support a game.

[coolAlias]

Ah but the 1975 Greyhawk supplement that introduced the Thief class had Elves either be Fighter/Magic-User/Thieves or single class as Thieves (previously they could alternate as Fighters or Magic-Users, but had to decide which at the beginning of the adventure).

A sweet part of the Thief was that they were no level limits for non-humans (remember those?).
Yes, they still had those in 2e AD&D from what I remember, and whenever we got that high we typically ended up ignoring them, much to my (human) character's chagrin. :P

I do miss the old-school multiclassing - it took forever to level up, but once you did, wow! Brings back memories of the CRPGs like Champions of Krynn.