Pathfinder Light

[SangoProduction]

So, reading some Spheres of Power stuff, which mentions light levels. Read up on that. It goes: Darkness->Dim->Normal->Bright, if I'm correct.

Turns out, in the core PF rules, you can increase light levels incrementally. Cool. But it would seem a little odd that 2 torches together can become as bright as direct sunlight. Am I reading this wrong? I mean, obviously more light sources = greater brightness, but...that seems a little off. (Even disregarding the exponential light to brightness ratio our eyes have.)

(Also, from my reading, it would appear as though the increase is after its "normal" radius, which is really weird, and likely an incorrect reading. This would mean that a candle next to a torch could be brighter than a torch next to a torch, as well as potentially giving a halo of bright light around a torch's normal light, if the ambient light is already normal. That...doesn't seem right.)

Am I just being stupid here, or are the light rules...just not up to snuff?

[Kallimakus]

Just about every mundane light source says that they either can't increase past normal light or don't increase light level in normal light. I don't recall a mundane illumination that creates bright light.

[Psyren]

I'm looking at my CRB and I'm not seeing where you found "two torches = daylight". Do you have a page reference or quote?

[SangoProduction]

Just about every mundane light source says that they either can't increase past normal light or don't increase light level in normal light. I don't recall a mundane illumination that creates bright light.

Ah, ok. That fixes the problems then. I knew I was missing something. But where does it say that?


I'm looking at my CRB and I'm not seeing where you found "two torches = daylight". Do you have a page reference or quote?

"Increase light by 1 step"

"See Table: Light Sources and Illumination for the radius that a light source illuminates and how long it lasts. The increased entry indicates an area outside the lit radius in which the light level is increased by one step (from darkness to dim light, for example)." reference (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/vision-and-light/)

[Psyren]

"Increase light by 1 step"

"See Table: Light Sources and Illumination for the radius that a light source illuminates and how long it lasts. The increased entry indicates an area outside the lit radius in which the light level is increased by one step (from darkness to dim light, for example)." reference (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/vision-and-light/)

Yeah, you did misread that. The only thing on that table capable of providing Bright light is the daylight spell. Everything else is Normal (as the "normal" entry on the table indicates) and that entry tells you how far out from the light source normal is. In other words, a torch is setting the light level to "Normal" within the normal radius, even if you're starting from pitch darkness. Then the "Increased" means that outside of the normal radius is a second radius where the light level, if it is below normal, gets increased one step (i.e. pitch darkness to dim, or dim to normal.)

At no point should you ever be reading "torch + torch = daylight." Make sense?

(EDIT: Everything except a candle, which tops out at dim rather than normal)

[P.F.]

... a torch is setting the light level to "Normal" within the normal radius, even if you're starting from pitch darkness. Then the "Increased" means that outside of the normal radius is a second radius where the light level, if it is below normal, gets increased one step (i.e. pitch darkness to dim, or dim to normal.


We use that interpretation in our games too.

However, I noticed that these rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/vision-and-light/) do not actually contain text specifying that.

[SangoProduction]

We use that interpretation in our games too.

However, I noticed that these rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/vision-and-light/) do not actually contain text specifying that.

OK, so I'm not going blind and not seeing them.

[Psyren]

We use that interpretation in our games too.

However, I noticed that these rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/vision-and-light/) do not actually contain text specifying that.

It does specify that. The table literally says "Normal" along with two footnotes explaining the things that are not normal light (daylight and candle) followed by explaining what "Increased" means.

What is not there is any sort of text saying that two torches = daylight. If you intentionally read things in a nonsensical way it shouldn't be a surprise when they don't make sense...

[SangoProduction]

It does specify that. The table literally says "Normal" along with two footnotes explaining the things that are not normal light (daylight and candle) followed by explaining what "Increased" means.

What is not there is any sort of text saying that two torches = daylight. If you intentionally read things in a nonsensical way it shouldn't be a surprise when they don't make sense...

Do you mean:
"1 A candle does not provide normal illumination, only dim illumination.
2 The light for a daylight spell is bright light.

Dwarves and half-orcs have darkvision, but the other races presented in Races need light to see by.

See Table: Light Sources and Illumination for the radius that a light source illuminates and how long it lasts. The increased entry indicates an area outside the lit radius in which the light level is increased by one step (from darkness to dim light, for example)"?

That's hardly a full and unquestionable "explanation," and says nothing about maximum light levels, and doesn't address multiple light sources in any fashion. So it's hardly a case of someone "intentionally" misreading things.

But, that's why I came to this forum, to see what I am not seeing in the rules. [So far, it seems like it's basically "yeah, the rules are stupid, homebrew it."]

Side question: Let's say there is the brightness cap of the source's typical light levels (typically normal, except for those exceptions). But, it still has a second radius after the normal radius where it increases light levels (to the cap). Do light sources stack for that area's increased light (to the cap), thus two torches on a single pole in a dark cave have a 40ft radius of normal light, which then sharply becomes darkness?

[Kallimakus]

The rules for maximum light level per source is found under Equipment (Adventuring Gear>Illumination)

[SangoProduction]

The rules for maximum light level per source is found under Equipment (Adventuring Gear>Illumination)

Thank you.

[Psyren]

I'm happy someone was able to satisfactorily cite that "normal" means "normal" :smalltongue:

The individual item entries also contain this information. For example, Torch: "A torch does not increase the light level in normal light or bright light."

[SangoProduction]

I'm happy someone was able to satisfactorily cite that "normal" means "normal" :smalltongue:
[/I]

I'm not sure what your deal is with that. I don't think a single person suggested that the area of "normal" light was anything but "normal" with exception to the Daylight spell.

[Psyren]

No deal, just being tongue-in-cheek. I'm genuinely happy your query was resolved to your satisfaction.

[SangoProduction]

No deal, just being tongue-in-cheek. I'm genuinely happy your query was resolved to your satisfaction.

Ah, ok. Cool.