OOTS #1079 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[hroþila]

Even though Andi got off relatively lightly, as a reader I'm like "NO DON'T POKE HER, IT'S NOT SAFE, LET IT GO".

[Kish]

I think letting Andi maintain the attitude that she didn't do anything really wrong is, observably, quite a bit more dangerous than calling her out on it before she gets to the "tying someone else up" level.

You know, Bandana, Elan has a spell that can mend headaches, too...

[2D8HP]

Pirate leadership 101:

Take from others, distribute to loyal followers

[liooil2000]

Heh, Felix being passive aggressive. And since V barred conjuration, no extra lift gas?

[hagnat]

Woo lighting cannons!
The Mechane will be flying like the Nebuchadnezzar through the sky :D

[Forikroder]

im liking felix more and more

[2D8HP]

...You know, Bandana, Elan has a spell that can mend headaches, too...


Bandana may prefer that Elan gets help from Haley for that casting...

Bom chickka wow wah

[Great Dane]

The last panel is a reference to comic 1064 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1064.html), in case anyone was momentarily confused like me. :smallbiggrin:

[Shining Wrath]

Andi appears to be ... daunted. Which seems smart.
Felix scores the ultimate pirate comeback in a battle of wits. :smallsmile:
Bandana seems to realize the stakes have been raised for the Mechane - and, also, to be planning on being in command for a long time to come.

[Celestia]

It's nice to see Bandana being tough, but not unreasonably so. She didn't let Andi get away with it, but she also didn't pull out an overly harsh punishment. She was fair.

[IntelectPaladin]

So that's what he did about it. Well done.

[Keltest]

Ouch. I need some ice just from proximity to that burn.

[Shining Wrath]

Ouch. I need some ice just from proximity to that burn.

And Andi's not saying a word. Or looking angry. She's glad to be alive, I think.

[stsasser]

Julio chose well.

[snowblizz]

And this is how a decent captain handles stuff.

Not that the Andi fans would notice.

[Ivrytwr]

Bandana learned a rough lesson, but I hope she doesn't turn her back on Andi again.
Rough going for OotS and the mission to save the world. Time is slipping away.

Thanks Giant!

[factotum]

So, they got out of the mountains by going back to the really dangerous pass that Andi turned them off in the first place, presumably? Who would have thought it? :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

Andi got rekt. Good.


Julio chose well.

I concur.

Now, back to the main plot! (Hopefully.)

[Arkku]

Ah, well, at least Andi didn't completely get away with it, would be particularly satisfactory if the rest of the crew got a huge reward for helping to save the world. (But they probably won't.)

[Chei]

Bwahahaha! Oh, oh Felix. That was great. Bandana's threat was delightful, but man do I love that punchline.

[Stabbey]

Nicely done by Bandanna.

[Morquard]

And Andi's not saying a word. Or looking angry. She's glad to be alive, I think.

Yes I'm pretty sure she expected to be tossed overboard when Bandana turned towards her there...

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm not certain she's quite figured out what happened. It's moving a little fast for her decision making process.

[GudBelkarIsGud]

Well, never thought this would be the strip to finally get me to delurk, but there it is. I don't think I'd have been as lenient as Bandana, but I do love her character's sense of judgement and intelligence. Of the NPCs, she's rapidly gaining on O'Chul as my favourite...

[137beth]

Bandana knows what she's doing. Andi is going to be a lot more careful from now on.

[littlebum2002]

I keep forgetting all the things that have happened in this storyline. I can't wait until it's done and I get to read thew whole thing at once.

[Shining Wrath]

Well, never thought this would be the strip to finally get me to delurk, but there it is. I don't think I'd have been as lenient as Bandana, but I do love her character's sense of judgement and intelligence. Of the NPCs, she's rapidly gaining on O'Chul as my favourite...

Welcome!

Of course, how could you have known which strip would get you to delurk before it was actually published? BEGONE, FOOLISH N00B! :smallbiggrin:

[TeCoolMage]

ehh would've been funnier if she got thrown overboard and came back as an undead villain with Trigak :smallbiggrin:

[Griffincat]

Hard to tell if further punishment is being withheld, they don't have time, or if Bandana thinks it's not worth her time/effort (which is almost the worst option).

[The MunchKING]

HA! Felix can hold a grudge. :p

[Asmodean_]

That was one of the most badass things I've ever seen. Go, Bandana!

[ORione]

Andi didn't want to be paid to ferry the Order around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html), and now she doesn't have to!

[drazen]

Andi didn't want to be paid to ferry the Order around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html), and now she doesn't have to!

Yes, Andi, getting paid usually requires doing what the boss (captain) asks you to do.

At least all of that is out of the way and we're (hopefully) on to deal with the dwarves. Though if the Mechane can only ever arrive in the nick of time...

[Unoriginal]

Eh, the Mechane crew is getting off way too lightly.

I'd have liked something like Bandana saying "and since you all went along with her endangering the ship, you all get half pay and the other half will be used as reparation funds" or something of that level.



Bandana learned a rough lesson

She learned nothing, and didn't have to learn anything.

Unless you meant "she learned to not trust Andi", but that's not a rough lesson.

[Shining Wrath]

I believe that henceforth all crew of the Mechane shall style Bandana as "Nomfwic (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjE897Fz_LUAhWo7oMKHQiEDKUQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.urbandictionary.com%2Fdefine. php%3Fterm%3DNOMFWIC&usg=AFQjCNG1EOvF0iNfbitELTcrVHi4Q1AKOw)".

[Keltest]

Eh, the Mechane crew is getting off way too lightly.

I'd have liked something like Bandana saying "and since you all went along with her endangering the ship, you all get half pay and the other half will be used as reparation funds" or something of that level.




She learned nothing, and didn't have to learn anything.

Unless you meant "she learned to not trust Andi", but that's not a rough lesson.

In light of the other crisis going on, the crew can IMO be forgiven for following the only person actually giving orders. The whole point of having a captain is that most of the crew isn't in a position to decide for themselves what the best course of action is.

[dtilque]

You know, Bandana, Elan has a spell that can mend headaches, too...

It's too high a level of spell for just a headache. She can drink a potion.

[Shining Wrath]

In light of the other crisis going on, the crew can IMO be forgiven for following the only person actually giving orders. The whole point of having a captain is that most of the crew isn't in a position to decide for themselves what the best course of action is.

That's precisely the story of Felix told in this episode - he didn't take revenge on Andi during the crisis, but he took action against her afterward.

[Kantaki]

Silly Andi. Three strikes are what a Good captain would give you.
Bandana is Neutral.

Thus you only get one chance not to mess up again.
And it seems Felix tries to goad her into wasting it.:smallbiggrin:

[ORione]

Eh, the Mechane crew is getting off way too lightly.

I'd have liked something like Bandana saying "and since you all went along with her endangering the ship, you all get half pay and the other half will be used as reparation funds" or something of that level.


If she said that, she'd have another mutiny.

[chy03001]

Thanks Giant!

Ah~ That was soooooo satisfying~~~

Andi got everything she deserved and hopefully has learned not to cross Bandana again.

Bandana also showed amazing leadership and level headed-ness considering the standard punishment for mutiny was to keel-haul the mutineers which usually ended with death by infection.

[Messenger]

ehh would've been funnier if she got thrown overboard and came back as an undead villain with Trigak :smallbiggrin:No more time for additional side-plots at this point- unless you're talking a Mechane spin-off.

[Jay R]

Hard to tell if further punishment is being withheld, they don't have time, or if Bandana thinks it's not worth her time/effort (which is almost the worst option).

I suspect that the fact that they need an engineer or the world will be destroyed has at least some influence here.

[Gnome Alone]

Silly Andi. Three strikes are what a Good captain would give you.
Bandana is Neutral.

Thus you only get one chance not to mess up again.
And it seems Felix tries to goad her into wasting it.:smallbiggrin:

I dunno, refusing to get all hung up on who bludgeoned who and take horrific vengeance seems pretty Good-aligned to me. But then I guess that's how that works, Neutral people don't constantly just do morally neutral things, they shake it up with Good, Evil, and non-aligned actions (like, y'know, a normal person.)

[Peelee]

I choose to believe the threat level is midnight.

[Reboot]

I choose to believe the threat level is midnight.

If it was midnight, they wouldn't be going anywhere. 'Cause the world would be goin' Boom.

[maxon]

Frankly, when they'd got back to Tinkertown, I'd have sent Andi off to buy something and then left.

[dtilque]

It's too high a level of spell for just a headache. She can drink a potion.

Or, as I realized after I posted, he could use his wand of healing. He hasn't used that at all.


I choose to believe the threat level is midnight.

Felix: Way too dark. Dun is the current fashion in threat levels, although we do have one in taupe.

[Peelee]

If it was midnight, they wouldn't be going anywhere. 'Cause the world would be goin' Boom.

You're thinking of the doosmday clock. I'm not (http://theoffice.wikia.com/wiki/Threat_Level_Midnight).


Felix: Way too dark. Dun is the current fashion in threat levels, although we do have one in taupe.
I'll take eight!

[eggynack]

Am I the only one that thinks that letting Andi off with a warning, allowing her to continue hanging out and doing stuff on the ship, is unwise? Seems fairly likely that she's going to do something awful at some point that screws everyone over. She hasn't even been particularly defanged. Yeah, it'd be stupid to pull another mutiny, or to otherwise screw over the ship, but I don't think many would accuse Andi of being particularly intelligent at this point.

[hamishspence]

Once the crew know that Andi's pay, after her mutiny, has gone to them - they're likely to be more sympathetic toward Bandanna, and less willing to follow Andi in another mutiny.

[Jasdoif]

Am I the only one that thinks that letting Andi off with a warning, allowing her to continue hanging out and doing stuff on the ship, is unwise? Seems fairly likely that she's going to do something awful at some point that screws everyone over. She hasn't even been particularly defanged. Yeah, it'd be stupid to pull another mutiny, or to otherwise screw over the ship, but I don't think many would accuse Andi of being particularly intelligent at this point.A few things come to mind:

Andi's been able to keep the Mechane flying for years now. Anger management, and unwarranted self-confidence with things she knows just enough about to be dangerous, are rather distinct from what she's supposed to be doing on board.
It's not at all clear how easy it is to find a proficient airship engineer.
There's no way to determine if Bandana intends to replace/remove Andi once circumstances are more favorable for doing so.

[Keltest]

Once the crew know that Andi's pay, after her mutiny, has gone to them - they're likely to be more sympathetic toward Bandanna, and less willing to follow Andi in another mutiny.

Perhaps more to the point, Andi is now keenly aware of the consequences for a second failed mutiny, or indeed any insubordination.

[2D8HP]

Or, as I realized after I posted, he could use his wand of healing. He hasn't used that at all.



:haley: Every rogue needs a good wand for that magical trick you just can’t duplicate. Back me up, B.

:Bandana: I don’t know. Personally, I’ve never really felt the need for one at all.




:belkar: I sense a great disturbance...
...As if a thousand double entendres cried out, and were suddenly silenced

[dtilque]

I'll take eight!

dun, Dun, DUN! Sorry, all we have is three of them.

[eggynack]

Once the crew know that Andi's pay, after her mutiny, has gone to them - they're likely to be more sympathetic toward Bandanna, and less willing to follow Andi in another mutiny.
Well, sure. An Andi based thing isn't all that likely to involve a whole crew push. Even this situation didn't rely that much on the rest of the crew, given that the primary issue was a wrench to the head. Yeah, the crew acting against Andi would've helped at a lot of steps, but it's easy to envision situations where she gets to be troublesome all on her lonesome.


Andi's been able to keep the Mechane flying for years now. Anger management, and unwarranted self-confidence with things she knows just enough about to be dangerous, are rather distinct from what she's supposed to be doing on board.
Never said that what she does what be mistakenly negative in relation to her specific job. Could be purposefully negative with regard to her job, or purposefully negative with regard to not her job, or even accidentally negative with regard to not her job, though that last seems relatively unlikely. I'd expect whatever happens to be driven in some manner.


It's not at all clear how easy it is to find a proficient airship engineer.
There's no way to determine if Bandana intends to replace/remove Andi once circumstances are more favorable for doing so.
Didn't say the alternatives are perfect, or that Bandana's planning to have it be a forever problem, but her current plan is to have someone on the ship who is fully willing to bonk her captain on the head with a wrench, and do so during this period of highest drama. Pointed this out awhile back, but I think the parallels between this decision and Roy's decision to keep his now vampiric cleric around are too clear to not be intentional. What the team needs and what the team can actually realistically have under the circumstances aren't necessarily the same thing.

Edit:
Perhaps more to the point, Andi is now keenly aware of the consequences for a second failed mutiny, or indeed any insubordination.
Sure. Which is absolutely the greatest force against Andi screwing stuff up. But what that tells me is that whatever Andi does, she's just gotta make it count.

[Wowlock]

Hard to tell if further punishment is being withheld, they don't have time, or if Bandana thinks it's not worth her time/effort (which is almost the worst option).

Well she basicly said '' Look... I have no time to deal with your **** THIS TIME...but if there is a next time, I will make sure it will be the last time '' and you wouldn't want to try to pull the same **** even if you are as thich-headed as Andi. Her Wrench can only do so much.

[Jasdoif]

What the team needs and what the team can actually realistically have under the circumstances aren't necessarily the same thing.Exactly. Right now, what the team needs is an emotionally stable airship engineer, and what the team can actually realistically have under the circumstances is Andi. Ditching Andi wouldn't get them an emotionally stable airship engineer, so it's a question of whether doing without either is more unwise than doing what they can with who they have.

[Chantelune]

Ah, Felix. You don't get many punchline, but when you do, you sure deliver. :smallamused:

[hroþila]

I think letting Andi maintain the attitude that she didn't do anything really wrong is, observably, quite a bit more dangerous than calling her out on it before she gets to the "tying someone else up" level.
Yes, and when a character has to pick a wire to cut to defuse a bomb it's something that has to be done because the alternative is worse, but I'm still going to be all "NO DON'T CUT THAT WIRE" regardless.

[The_Weirdo]

Andi got off lightly. I was hoping she'd be chained to a rock. :smallwink:

And Felix made me laugh. :smallbiggrin:

[Shining Wrath]

I think Andi's attitude ever since she dropped her wrench has been "I really blew it badly when I bonked Bandana with my wrench and I'll never do anything even half that stupid again". Her acceptance of Bandana's threat in this episode (notice strip title over there <=====) and also her acceptance of Felix's suggestion about her losing her pay suggests to me that the new Andi is meek enough to inherit the engine room.

[schmunzel]

Am I the only one that thinks that letting Andi off with a warning, allowing her to continue hanging out and doing stuff on the ship, is unwise? Seems fairly likely that she's going to do something awful at some point that screws everyone over. She hasn't even been particularly defanged. Yeah, it'd be stupid to pull another mutiny, or to otherwise screw over the ship, but I don't think many would accuse Andi of being particularly intelligent at this point.

That was my thought, too. To be precise I was asking myself what exactly was the mutiny leading up, too story wise.
It takes to much room to be just a red herring, and im mostly content with it leading to Roy learning to callback his sword.
Mostly.

Maybe the mutiny theme isnt over yet?
A disgruntled Andy sells of *whatever* to the vampires or later to Xykon ??

sch

[eggynack]

Exactly. Right now, what the team needs is an emotionally stable airship engineer, and what the team can actually realistically have under the circumstances is Andi. Ditching Andi wouldn't get them an emotionally stable airship engineer, so it's a question of whether doing without either is more unwise than doing what they can with who they have.
What I'm saying is that what the team needs is an engineer in general, but that they can't realistically have one of those without risking something going horribly wrong at the worst possible moment, because they've decided to keep around a disloyal, rage filled, and stupid about not-engineering person to do ship stuff. To return to my earlier point, an evil vampire cleric is not better than no cleric at all.

Edit:
I think Andi's attitude ever since she dropped her wrench has been "I really blew it badly when I bonked Bandana with my wrench and I'll never do anything even half that stupid again". Her acceptance of Bandana's threat in this episode (notice strip title over there <=====) and also her acceptance of Felix's suggestion about her losing her pay suggests to me that the new Andi is meek enough to inherit the engine room.
I don't think that what's happened in the comic suits that reading. Immediately regretful Andi has a whole pile of stuff she could have done following the wrenching, and she did none of those things. Instead, she doubled down in a manner consistent with an intentional mutiny, whether it was one or not. In particular, she could have just let Bandana's orders to go directly through the pass stand, or at least untied her when she woke up. Pretty much the only time she showed anything approaching regret was when the power shifted back to Bandana, and that was seemingly a fear reaction to being faced with an in power captain, one surrounded by her loyal crew, that she just mutinied. Who wouldn't be regretful in this context? She has a pretty good chance of being utterly screwed.

[Kish]

To what extent the recent subplot needed justification by tying it to the Order's main plot, I think the answer is: The mutiny was leading up to Roy gaining the ability to call his sword back to his hand. That's at least as much of a justification as Tsukiko's entire existence had, in the end--and Rich called her a major character once.

[Draconi Redfir]

And this is how a decent captain handles stuff.

Not that the Andi fans would notice.

"Bandanna shouldn't be so good because she leaned into andi and raised her voice and hand" amirite? :P

seriously, glad to see Andi get her comeuppance. while i doubt this is the be-all end-all of the mutiny thing, i do suspect things will shift in terms of perspective. it was a fun and interesting ride the whole way though.

[Peelee]

"Bandanna shouldn't be so good because she leaned into andi and raised her voice and hand" amirite? :P

Frankly, I'm surprised Bandana didn't get whacked again when she leaned towards Andi in panel 7. The captain flirts with danger, I tells ya.

[eggynack]

To what extent the recent subplot needed justification by tying it to the Order's main plot, I think the answer is: The mutiny was leading up to Roy gaining the ability to call his sword back to his hand. That's at least as much of a justification as Tsukiko's entire existence had, in the end--and Rich called her a major character once.
Tsukiko kinda just was that plot, in and of herself. Elan's whole thing that book was dealing with politics and romance aboard the ship and whatnot, along with the various issues that caused and contained. It didn't really need to have some external impact, as a result, though if it did have one then it was in the form of Elan character development. I kinda doubt, meanwhile, that we could call Andi's mutiny the plot in and of itself. If this story ends with Andi standing between the major protagonist and major antagonist of an arc, and getting killed for it, I'd call that sufficient story justification for the mutiny. Assuming it follows or whatever. Roy's sword feels kinda incredibly tangential.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think you might be confusing Tsukiko and Therkla.

[Ruck]

Andi didn't want to be paid to ferry the Order around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html), and now she doesn't have to!

Hey, sometimes you can get what you want. (And it might be what Andi needs, too.)


I choose to believe the threat level is midnight.

Dwigt, you ignorant slut.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Excellent seeing Andi get her just desserts. Perhaps she is aware of the Dwarven proverb that revenge is a dish that is best served cold. It is very cold in the mountains.




Frankly, I'm surprised Bandana didn't get whacked again when she leaned towards Andi in panel 7. The captain flirts with danger, I tells ya.

She's just so physical.

[Jasdoif]

What I'm saying is that what the team needs is an engineer in general, but that they can't realistically have one of those without risking something going horribly wrong at the worst possible moment, because they've decided to keep around a disloyal, rage filled, and stupid about not-engineering person to do ship stuff. To return to my earlier point, an evil vampire cleric is not better than no cleric at all.The reason an evil vampire cleric turned out to be such an issue is because that evil vampire cleric is trying to accomplish exactly what the Order is trying to prevent; something which would still be an issue if the cleric happened to not be evil, or not be a vampire. I really don't think Andi is plotting to destroy the Mechane before the Order gets to their destination, and those entities that are trying to do that are precisely the reason why the Mechane having an engineer of some sort is important. Keeping Andi around may be substandard in the wisdom department, but it's a lot more wise than dropping a risk to introduce a bigger risk.

There's all sorts of prior book connections that could be pointed out here; like how Andi's a risk, but less of one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1061.html); or how Andi and Bandana are who they are on their very worst day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html). But I don't think it's at all clear if Bandana's treatment of Andi is an intentional mirror of Roy's treatment of HPoH-pretending-to-be-Durkon, and/or if it's foreshadowing how Roy/O-Chul/etc. will use merciful graciousness to get Redcloak/MitD/etc. to help them on their world-saving quest in ways they couldn't manage on their own.

[King of Nowhere]

so, andi got her pay docked for mutiny. that's incredibly lenient. normally the penalty for mutiny is death. on the other hand, she's clearly a very competent mechanics. there aren't many of those layin around, and it would be a waste to kill her when the ship needs a good mechanic.

[GreatWyrmGold]

All of the good comments have been taken, so I'll respond to a bunch of other comments and see if any of the responses are good.




ehh would've been funnier if she got thrown overboard and came back as an undead villain with Trigak :smallbiggrin:
And the upper half of a ghoul or something made from Miko. And a Brainy Pete wight. And a vampiric Samantha. And...
Actually, I'd like to see that. Probably in a fancomic or something, unless Rich gets really drunk when he's writing the next strip.




Silly Andi. Three strikes are what a Good captain would give you.
Bandana is Neutral.
And an evil captain would only give one? The math checks out.




I choose to believe the threat level is midnight.
I was thinking something along the lines of "threat level god" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Manga/OnePunchMan). Or maybe "threat level severe" (https://www.mi5.gov.uk/threat-levels).




Ah, Felix. You don't get many punchline, but when you do, you sure deliver. :smallamused:
I kinda hope he gets to be Bandana's first mate, just so we can hear his punchlines more often.
(inb4 someone points to a strip where someone mentions he's already first mate)




Frankly, I'm surprised Bandana didn't get whacked again when she leaned towards Andi in panel 7. The captain flirts with danger, I tells ya.
Putting aside how Andi's learned her lesson, she was kinda unarmed. Unless she's been taking levels in monk, she can't do much.




But I don't think it's at all clear if Bandana's treatment of Andi is an intentional mirror of Roy's treatment of HPoH-pretending-to-be-Durkon, and/or if it's foreshadowing how Roy/O-Chul/etc. will use merciful graciousness to get Redcloak/MitD/etc. to help them on their world-saving quest in ways they couldn't manage on their own.
With Rich's writing, I could plausibly see it being foreshadowing, present-shadowing, and aftshadowing all at once.

[ORione]

I think Andi's attitude ever since she dropped her wrench has been "I really blew it badly when I bonked Bandana with my wrench and I'll never do anything even half that stupid again". Her acceptance of Bandana's threat in this episode (notice strip title over there <=====) and also her acceptance of Felix's suggestion about her losing her pay suggests to me that the new Andi is meek enough to inherit the engine room.

Yeah, that's the sense I'm getting, too. I think her attempt at leadership made it clear even to Andi that Bandana's a better captain.

[KorvinStarmast]

To what extent the recent subplot needed justification by tying it to the Order's main plot, I think the answer is: The mutiny was leading up to Roy gaining the ability to call his sword back to his hand. That's at least as much of a justification as Tsukiko's entire existence had, in the end--and Rich called her a major character once.

Tsukiko's best scene was when Red Cloak had the undead consume her.
Her second best scene was where she figured out it was divine and arcane magic.
That's one secondary character I'm glad to see well gone.

Andi: realizes she can't be captain, and she has now been told her limits. I'd like to see that drama be set aside for a while.
Get North. Time for a quick scene change to O'Chul and Lien.

PS: good strip, all in all.

[LadyEowyn]

Thanks Giant!

Ah~ That was soooooo satisfying~~~

Andi got everything she deserved and hopefully has learned not to cross Bandana again.

Bandana also showed amazing leadership and level headed-ness considering the standard punishment for mutiny was to keel-haul the mutineers which usually ended with death by infection.

Being keelhauled by an airship would likely be nausea-inducing but not seriously harmful.

[ironkid]

Andi got off with a slap in the hand. Mutiny should mean death. Of course, they've known each other for a long time, and I'm pretty sure Andi's pretty much essential in the Mechane.

Felix was awesome, and so was Bandana's response. I expected more sass from Andi, she seems pretty docile now. Wisdom must be her dump stat.

[elros]

I like how Rich shows how things work with a crew that is chaotic in alignment. They follow orders because they want to, not because they are obligated to. Leadership is earned, not granted by a title. Bandana showed the crew that she is the best leader, and now they trust her to lead them.
And being part of a chaotic crew means that sometimes people will act out of their own best interests, and that can lead people acting out like Andi. And a good leader will use the carrot and the sick to bring them back in line.
Rich has done a good job showing why Bandana is a good leader for this crew, and gives another good representation of alignment how alignments should work.

[Anarion]

I very much felt the crew's relief coming out of the mountains. That was quite well done. The lost pay at the end was justly deserved.

[SoraWolf7]

Ho dang, that is honestly, the BEST variant of the Three Strikes bit I've ever heard. Hopefully Andi has learned a lesson, and learned not to think that you can do everything. She's a great mechanic, but not the best to lead.

The Mechane with lightning cannons? Oh heck yeah that'd be awesome. And excellent callback to a previous strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1064.html).

[Cisturn]

I've been away from the forums for a bit. After reading some of these comments...was there an Andi/Bandanna schism among the fans?

[napoleon_in_rag]

Bandana is not much of a pirate. A real pirate would have done something horrible to Andi like keel hauling or 24 lashes with a cat-o-nine tails.

[Keltest]

Bandana is not much of a pirate. A real pirate would have done something horrible to Andi like keel hauling or 24 lashes with a cat-o-nine tails.

Theyre "heroic" pirates though.

[Kish]

I've been away from the forums for a bit. After reading some of these comments...was there an Andi/Bandanna schism among the fans?
Several people, for reasons best known to themselves, decided that Andi was actually in the right when she mutineed. As it became more overt that she was not, some of them just stopped posting on the subject, but others expressed, shall we say, aggressive displeasure that Rich was choosing to write something that didn't go with the narrative they wanted.

[ChillerInstinct]

Once the crew know that Andi's pay, after her mutiny, has gone to them - they're likely to be more sympathetic toward Bandanna, and less willing to follow Andi in another mutiny.

That's the real beauty of it. Positive reinforcement is just as important as negative. Using the carrot and the stick in unison works much better than either by itself.

Bandana also probably knows that if she stomps down too hard on Andi, she'll be setting herself up for a fall later. Really smart play on her part, it puts Andi in her place in a way that still lets her be an asset to the team again while improving her standing with the rest of the crew.

All in all, I think this is the best way she could have handled it. Chapeau, Bandana.

[Chei]

Several people, for reasons best known to themselves, decided that Andi was actually in the right when she mutineed. As it became more overt that she was not, some of them just stopped posting on the subject, but others expressed, shall we say, aggressive displeasure that Rich was choosing to write something that didn't go with the narrative they wanted.

It makes me wish I had frequented the forums back when Tarquin had his worst day. That must have been a ride.

[Peelee]

I've been away from the forums for a bit. After reading some of these comments...was there an Andi/Bandanna schism among the fans?Several people, for reasons best known to themselves, decided that Andi was actually in the right when she mutineed. As it became more overt that she was not, some of them just stopped posting on the subject, but others expressed, shall we say, aggressive displeasure that Rich was choosing to write something that didn't go with the narrative they wanted.
One of the more notable claims being that Andi was justified in attacking Bandana because Bandana slightly leaned in towards Andi and raised her voice.

It makes me wish I had frequented the forums back when Tarquin had his worst day. That must have been a ride.
Just check the Index thread Jasdoif curates. Short version, if the quote is about Tarquin and the thread it's from is locked, that's probably gonna be what you're looking for.

[easter]

Several people, for reasons best known to themselves, decided that Andi was actually in the right when she mutineed. As it became more overt that she was not, some of them just stopped posting on the subject, but others expressed, shall we say, aggressive displeasure that Rich was choosing to write something that didn't go with the narrative they wanted.

I wasn't on the forums at the time (this is actually my first post) but as someone who was on Andi's side in the beginning: the reason I was generally on her side is because as an IT person who has worked with any number of incompetent managers or clients there is a degree of... familiarity... felt when the engineer says "The thing is a terrible idea" and the captain says "I have heard your objection. I'm gonna do the thing anyways".

Add on the fact that Bandana was an acting captain who was new to the role and Andi had been set up as a bit of a rational problem solver who deals with people making dumb calls (see: the "we aren't being paid for this" thing where Bandana listened to her and agreed she was in the right and the Belkar cutting up the ship bit where she stood up to him and provided a practical solution that made them both happy) the notion that Bandana was making bad calls from being green and not listening to her more experienced engineer about what they realistically could do set up the idea that Andi might have been on to something with this whole "The captain doesn't know what they're doing and we need decisive action" bit.

Now obviously the point that being a good mechanic doesn't make you a good captain played out, but I feel being on her side at the very beginning was more justifiable than you're making it out to sound.

(also sorry if this conversation has already played out multiple times before and I just didn't see it)

[Peelee]

I wasn't on the forums at the time (this is actually my first post) but as someone who was on Andi's side in the beginning: the reason I was generally on her side is because as an IT person who has worked with any number of incompetent managers or clients there is a degree of... familiarity... felt when the engineer says "The thing is a terrible idea" and the captain says "I have heard your objection. I'm gonna do the thing anyways".

To be fair, the real-world engineer would be voicing their opinion regarding a business decision, not an engineering decision, for that to be truly analogous.

That said, I do see where you're coming from.

[Kish]

Yes, it has. I'd also like to suggest an edit to the assertions of fact in your second paragraph, to whit:

Add on the fact that Bandana was an acting captain who was new to the role and Andi had been set up as someone who would find something to complain about no matter what Bandana did (see: the "we aren't being paid for this" thing where Bandana listened to her and agreed she was in the right, Bandana got the crew pay, everyone else in the crew was happy with it, and Andi and only Andi immediately changed the subject of her complaint to "but we're not a ferry service!" without acknowledging that it was a change at all and the Belkar cutting up the ship bit where she stood up to him and provided a practical solution that made them both happy) the notion that Bandana was making bad calls from being green and not listening to her more experienced engineer about what they realistically could do set up the idea that Andi might have been on to something with this whole "The captain doesn't know what they're doing and we need decisive action" bit.

[Keltest]

I wasn't on the forums at the time (this is actually my first post) but as someone who was on Andi's side in the beginning: the reason I was generally on her side is because as an IT person who has worked with any number of incompetent managers or clients there is a degree of... familiarity... felt when the engineer says "The thing is a terrible idea" and the captain says "I have heard your objection. I'm gonna do the thing anyways".

Add on the fact that Bandana was an acting captain who was new to the role and Andi had been set up as a bit of a rational problem solver who deals with people making dumb calls (see: the "we aren't being paid for this" thing where Bandana listened to her and agreed she was in the right and the Belkar cutting up the ship bit where she stood up to him and provided a practical solution that made them both happy) the notion that Bandana was making bad calls from being green and not listening to her more experienced engineer about what they realistically could do set up the idea that Andi might have been on to something with this whole "The captain doesn't know what they're doing and we need decisive action" bit.

Now obviously the point that being a good mechanic doesn't make you a good captain played out, but I feel being on her side at the very beginning was more justifiable than you're making it out to sound.

(also sorry if this conversation has already played out multiple times before and I just didn't see it)

Within the context of andi's state of mind, her actions were totally understandable. The disagreement came about because some posters felt that Andi's logic and actions were also reasonable in an objective sense. Striking out at an object of your frustration is understandable. Being frustrated because you are being ignored is understandable. Attacking your commanding officer for yelling at you to do your job is not reasonable.

[Goblin_Priest]

Loving the new pace of updates.

[Lord_Drayakir]

Oh look, finally the plot tumor of the useless NPCs is done.

Here's to hoping they never talk again.

[Goblin_Priest]

Let's not forget that had Andi not mutineed, the rest of the party couldn't have cleared the path ahead of them, and the Mechane might have been destroyed! :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

Let's not forget that had Andi not mutineed, the rest of the party couldn't have cleared the path ahead of them, and the Mechane might have been destroyed! :smallbiggrin:

That is giving Andi quite a bit more credit than she warrants even if the Order's ability to drive off the giants was somehow related to the Mechane vanishing down a ravine.

[danielxcutter]

Huh, updates are becoming more frequent. That's not just me, right?

[ORione]

Let's not forget that had Andi not mutineed, the rest of the party couldn't have cleared the path ahead of them, and the Mechane might have been destroyed! :smallbiggrin:

Even if that's true, it's not to Andi's credit, since she didn't know that would happen. She thought that Haley and Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1057.html) were abandoning them.

[Douglas]

Edit:
I don't think that what's happened in the comic suits that reading. Immediately regretful Andi has a whole pile of stuff she could have done following the wrenching, and she did none of those things. Instead, she doubled down in a manner consistent with an intentional mutiny, whether it was one or not. In particular, she could have just let Bandana's orders to go directly through the pass stand, or at least untied her when she woke up.
That was before the "dropped her wrench" moment that the poster you responded to was talking about.

I completely agree that Andi was not, in fact, immediately regretful right after the mutiny. I would contend, however, that her doubling down is consistent with following a sunk cost and not wanting to admit she made a mistake, supported by ignorance about her level of competence in the role of captain. That motivation can only last as long as she can continue to deny being mistaken or incompetent, however, and as of the wrench drop moment circumstances had forced her to recognize it, and once she recognized that it was in fact a mistake she seemed to regret it.

[KorvinStarmast]

the reason I was generally on her side is because as an IT person who has worked with any number of incompetent managers or clients there is a degree of... familiarity... felt when the engineer says "The thing is a terrible idea" and the captain says "I have heard your objection. I'm gonna do the thing anyways". Having been on both the technical and managerial side of solving problems, I suggest that your broaden your scope, and always to remember to make sure that your objections are technically oriented (from your area of expertise) and to remember that the reason someone hired a manager is that in the end someone has to make a decision. I'm back in the technical end of things, and I am grateful I am not doing decisions at the moment. For the moment, I make my recommendations and let the management do what they are paid to do: make a decision.

Had Andi done that, maybe it would have gone better.

[danielxcutter]

Even if that's true, it's not to Andi's credit, since she didn't know that would happen. She thought that Haley and Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1057.html) were abandoning them.

Hmm... I'm sensing a pattern. Does anyone else think that one of the themes for this arc is "trust your allies to do their job" or something like that? We've already noticed that there's a "change and the willingness to acknowledge it" theme going on, but this also seems like a thing.

[Douglas]

Huh, updates are becoming more frequent. That's not just me, right?
As stated in this tweet (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/864294575820681216) and a few more just before it, Rich was focusing on the O'Chul story for Kickstarter backers, and now that that's done he's switched his main focus (at least for now) to the main comic.

[danielxcutter]

As stated in this tweet (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/864294575820681216) and a few more just before it, Rich was focusing on the O'Chul story for Kickstarter backers, and now that that's done he's switched his main focus (at least for now) to the main comic.

Ah, I see. I don't have a Twitter account or anything like that, so I didn't know about that.

[ORione]

Hmm... I'm sensing a pattern. Does anyone else think that one of the themes for this arc is "trust your allies to do their job" or something like that? We've already noticed that there's a "change and the willingness to acknowledge it" theme going on, but this also seems like a thing.

Maybe, but I think it would have to be more nuanced than that. After all, Roy trusted "Durkon" to do his job, and Bandana trusted Andi to do her job.

[woweedd]

And...that was badass. I mean, I kinda wish she'd thrown her out but that's probably my own vaguely-Lawful alignment/control freak tendencies talking. Yet another reason Bandanna is a better captain then most people, myself included.:smallbiggrin:

[danielxcutter]

Maybe, but I think it would have to be more nuanced than that. After all, Roy trusted "Durkon" to do his job, and Bandana trusted Andi to do her job.

And Xykon and Redcloak (sorta) trusted the MitD not to betray them, but that's exactly what he's doing. "Know who to trust" perhaps?

[Going Hereward]

Bandana being a good captain is fine, but Julio's choice should be more careful about throwing up death flags like that.

[Svata]

Bandana being a good captain is fine, but Julio's choice should be more careful about throwing up death flags like that.

What? What's a death flag? What are you even talking about?

[The_Weirdo]

And...that was badass. I mean, I kinda wish she'd thrown her out but that's probably my own vaguely-Lawful alignment/control freak tendencies talking. Yet another reason Bandanna is a better captain then most people, myself included.:smallbiggrin:

Nah, I'm very CN and I'm also a bit sad Andi isn't taking a long walk over a short plank. :smallbiggrin:

[The_Weirdo]

What? What's a death flag? What are you even talking about?

Likely, "we won't be needing weapons".

[Kish]

[...]
Based on your previous posts on the subject on the conflict in question, I gently suggest you might want to check that post for a typo, particularly in the name area.

[The_Weirdo]

Based on your previous posts on the subject on the conflict in question, I gently suggest you might want to check that post for a typo, particularly in the name area.

I noticed before I read your post, I thank you for your politeness and I would like to sacrifice a goat for your wellbeing. :smallbiggrin:

[Ridureyu]

While she sleeps, Andi can just kill her with a wrench and take over again. It is, afer all, a moral imperative now.

[The_Weirdo]

While she sleeps, Andi can just kill her with a wrench and take over again. It is, afer all, a moral imperative now.

You performance artist, you. :smallbiggrin:

[Shoelessgdowar]

Well, never thought this would be the strip to finally get me to delurk, but there it is. I don't think I'd have been as lenient as Bandana, but I do love her character's sense of judgement and intelligence. Of the NPCs, she's rapidly gaining on O'Chul as my favourite...

Lenient is realitive. They are still in the sky, they may still need repairs enroute, and keeping Andi around for now is a calculated risk. Andi can be replaced after they get to a place to restock and restaff.


Hard to tell if further punishment is being withheld, they don't have time, or if Bandana thinks it's not worth her time/effort (which is almost the worst option).

Probation, garnered wages, getting burned by Felix, and having to do even more work... Andi was crushed, only punishment left is termination without a severance package (which may still happen when they get somewhere Bandana can hire a superior replacement... which is anyone with a better attitude and even a fraction of Andi's skill)

[GrayGriffin]

Likely, "we won't be needing weapons".

It sounds more like "we need better weapons" to me.

[Going Hereward]

What? What's a death flag? What are you even talking about?

Not needing weapons is a good one, but I was more referring to the implication they'll all split Andi's share of the loot when the job is done.

A few of them are named characters now. They're running with scissors.

[Finagle]

Aww, I was sure the pirate penalty for treason was hanging by the yardarm. Or at least a keel-hauling. I mean, how many times in fiction do you get to write a scene in which you can legitimately shout about keel-hauling? What a lost opportunity.

Ha! Joke's on Bandana. This mission isn't revenue-gaining, and the crew has already been paid their 200gp. So there won't be anything to split at the end of the mission and Andi will get off scot-free.

[JoeyTheNeko]

I'm a good person and unless the need for an engineer is something that the ship needs before anything else, I would have tossed her overboard at this strike.

[easter]

Having been on both the technical and managerial side of solving problems, I suggest that your broaden your scope, and always to remember to make sure that your objections are technically oriented (from your area of expertise) and to remember that the reason someone hired a manager is that in the end someone has to make a decision. I'm back in the technical end of things, and I am grateful I am not doing decisions at the moment. For the moment, I make my recommendations and let the management do what they are paid to do: make a decision.

Had Andi done that, maybe it would have gone better.

Had Andi been a real person and not a fictional stick figure NPC in a comedy fantasy universe, onto which I could project my fantasy of hitting the most annoying boss I've ever had in the head with a wrench, you would have a point. But since she's the latter, it's easier to simplify the narrative and invest on an emotional/narrative level rather than intellectual one and cheer for that. Like, it was entirely possible for the plot to have been "Bandana doesn't know what she's doing and her bravado and refusal to listen to those around her was going to get everyone killed, so Andi had to step in and save the day". That is a plot that has been used in any number of stories and can retroactively justify itself. In real life? No. She's clearly in the wrong even if she had saved the day. In the plot that ended up playing out? No. She was clearly in the wrong.

But to chastise my scope IRL for initially rooting for Andi IG because her behavior was unacceptable IRL is just silly. If we're gonna hold everyone to IRL standards then I couldn't root for Belkar or V either after what they did and would be sideeyeing the hell out of Hayley for dating someone who appears to be literally mentally handicapped. And I certainly wouldn't be able to enjoy the lighthearted banter between Xykon and Redcloak as they're both monsters. I accept everyone is going to act overly, tropey and dramatically and violence will occur more freely as it is a D&D comic.

[toapat]

So, they got out of the mountains by going back to the really dangerous pass that Andi turned them off in the first place, presumably? Who would have thought it? :smallsmile:

Perfectly safe pass that V, Belkar, and Haley farmed XP in.

[ti'esar]

Andi didn't want to be paid to ferry the Order around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html), and now she doesn't have to!

Okay, that's pretty awesome.

[Manty5]

Eh, the Mechane crew is getting off way too lightly.

I'd have liked something like Bandana saying "and since you all went along with her endangering the ship, you all get half pay and the other half will be used as reparation funds" or something of that level.

Actually, her solution is superior.

Your way would have put Andi and the rest of the crew in the same boat so to speak with the captain on the other side. Now however the split occurs between Andi and the rest of the crew, which makes further rebellions a lot less likely to succeed, since can count on the crew backing her even less, because the captain sided with *them*.

Edit: Reading the rest of the thread, the Heroic Defenders of Andi might want to remember the First Rule of Holes.

Oh wait. They're defending someone who has considerable difficulty learning from her mistakes. Carry on, then.

[arimareiji]

Tossing my own 2 cents in the wishing well: You can make good cases that Bandanna should have been more ~or~ less harsh with Andi. But Haley put life in OotS pretty well back in 540, to Belkar: "Would I be travelling with a horrid little b*****d like you if I didn't need all the help I could get?" (And remember how true that was. His behavior at that time makes Andi look like a paladin.)

You take what you can get, not what you wish you had. I think Bandanna did extremely well - and I'd like to think Felix was deliberately giving her an alley-oop with his comment. It's probably an unrealistic hope, but if they're developing teamwork I'd love to see more of it.

OotS reminds me a lot of my old DM who highly prizes realism - Good is not Dumb, but Dumb is not Evil (or vice versa). And it seems the Giant just LOVES lampshading tropes, then dissecting them to see what's inside. (^_^)


I would contend, however, that her doubling down is consistent with following a sunk cost and not wanting to admit she made a mistake, supported by ignorance about her level of competence in the role of captain. That motivation can only last as long as she can continue to deny being mistaken or incompetent

Bull's eye - but imo, that can be a VERY long time. Often the rest of a lifetime.

I'm glad for the fact recent strips have been incisive on the solutions to some of the problems our society keeps tackling headfirst. (Not "headfirst" as in "fully committed", "headfirst" as in "using our skulls for battering rams".)
Please discard any perceived political implications; they're certainly not intended. I think we individually* have to come back to grips with:
"Ain't no running, ain't no hiding, ain't no blaming, ain't no someone else's problem... roll up your sleeves and do what needs getting done."
"Good gods, Andi - overruling your crew's ideas is not the same as overruling their facts!"
"Beginner geometry holds up the magnet gambler! Sunrise gravy!"**

* - Each of us for ourselves. When we admit to ourselves how little control we have over our own flaws and how good we are at creatively ignoring them, we start to realize how useless it is to try to fix others' flaws.
** - Okay, maybe not this one. But it was too quotable. (^_~)

[F.Harr]

Roy! Yay!


Now, can I convince him that my groceries are his legacy food?

And I agree. You do what you can, where you are with what you've got. And that includes people.

[Kish]

But to chastise my scope IRL for initially rooting for Andi IG because her behavior was unacceptable IRL is just silly.
"IG"? There's no game here. There's a story. You can root for Vaarsuvius and Belkar as much as you want, but you'll be disappointed if you expect their crimes not to mean anything to the story. You can side-eye Haley if you want, but if nothing comes of what you're side-eyeing her for it's more likely to mean "the author disagrees with you" than "LOL D&D there's no morality here!" You can enjoy the "lighthearted banter" between Xykon and Redcloak if you want, but if you seriously think Redcloak is ever lighthearted when talking to Xykon you've already missed more than I can say. And you can protest that expecting Andi to be vindicated was logically sound (though it'll work better if you don't describe what she did inaccurately while doing so) or that she was obviously in the wrong from the start but you cheered for her anyway because you were projecting a vaguely similar real-life situation onto her, but both at once won't serve you well.

It makes me wish I had frequented the forums back when Tarquin had his worst day. That must have been a ride.
This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-318550.html) is my personal favorite, though every time he showed anything but being evilly perfect he lost fans.

[hamishspence]

Regarding Haley, the Giant did say that Elan needed to grow up a bit in order to minimise uncomfortableness for their pairing in the readers' eyes.

So, there was the Elan & Julio arc - where Elan grew up a bit.

[Draconi Redfir]

the therkla / party split thing also helped elan grow a bit, as he had to deal with a potential second lover and had to be mature enough to not only stay loyal to haley, but also let therkla down easy.

[Mordaedil]

Reading that locked thread here was certainly an excersize in arguing a viewpoint so stubbornly that you can't see the other viewpoint for all but a lack of of trying.

While I can see the viewpoint from working in IT since I do that now, what is kinda missing from that point of view is that this is a ship, which means that the laws of vesseling a ship is what matters, and the captains word is law, and failure to adhere to that can lead to loss of lives in ways of people being washed overboard or even worse, the craft sinking.

There's certainly a time for when mutiny is just, but that time is when the entire crew is in agreement that the captain is steering them wrong and even then it isn't a thing that should be followed up on with violence. The fact that the entire crew was swayed easily back to taking orders from Bandana even after the mutiny because Andi couldn't provide the leadership sorely needed really serves to underline the point that she is lucky for being allowed to continue to serve, or even live depending on how afraid the captain is of repeat action.

Or to put it in IT lingo: You may not like what the team leader is saying you should do, but you aren't going to be doing his job.

[B. Dandelion]

I definitely didn't want to see Andi gruesomely punished in one of the many, many ways suggested by posters on the forums, but I'd still like to see some genuine remorse out of her and a sincere apology for her wrongdoing. Being denied her cut for the mission and mocked by Felix is all well and good, but I hope that's not the last word on the issue. It is a very, very lenient punishment and if Andi were to acknowledge as much herself, it would raise her in my estimation as well as showcase Bandana's ability to judge and manage her crew appropriately.

Also: was Bandana actually said to be Chaotic Neutral? I know Julio was, but I've been headcanoning her as Chaotic Good since the fight with Crystal. I actually thought that that might be part of the reason the rest of the crew was quick to assume she'd signed them up for another "good versus evil battle where neutral gets the bill" -- the mostly-Neutral crew switching from a CN type leader with a heroic streak to an out and out CG type.

[Cazero]

Like, it was entirely possible for the plot to have been "Bandana doesn't know what she's doing and her bravado and refusal to listen to those around her was going to get everyone killed, so Andi had to step in and save the day". That is a plot that has been used in any number of stories and can retroactively justify itself.
Actually, we had a strip were Bandana showed us that she knew exactly what she was doing, right there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1051.html), and that strip happened before Andi started her mid-batle complaints. So while it is true that the stock plot you mention exists and can be used, it definitely couldn't apply for that crisis.

[skaddix]

Bandanna really isn't a position to punish Andi...Andi is the Chief Engineer and the ship is damaged and on the clock to save the world from Annihilation. Andi is getting off lucky because right now they need her. Now when the Mechane makes it to a city, Andi can maybe recruit a new Engineer along with her Wizard. But right now she really cant do that.

Additionally, punishing the whole crew for mutiny would be stupid. As they would just revolt again and punish her and sure with the OOTS backing her she could put down the whole crew but that doesn't help anyone.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Aww, I was sure the pirate penalty for treason was hanging by the yardarm. Or at least a keel-hauling. I mean, how many times in fiction do you get to write a scene in which you can legitimately shout about keel-hauling? What a lost opportunity.

Ha! Joke's on Bandana. This mission isn't revenue-gaining, and the crew has already been paid their 200gp. So there won't be anything to split at the end of the mission and Andi will get off scot-free.

Actually, they haven't been paid yet. They get the 200gp for services rendered. So, they will be splitting Andi's 200gp, the question is will Bandana taje a share, and does Andi get 1/?th of the 200gp wher ?=# crew (or # crew - 1, 2, or 3... Does Julio still get a share?)

[drazen]

Having been on both the technical and managerial side of solving problems, I suggest that your broaden your scope, and always to remember to make sure that your objections are technically oriented (from your area of expertise) and to remember that the reason someone hired a manager is that in the end someone has to make a decision. I'm back in the technical end of things, and I am grateful I am not doing decisions at the moment. For the moment, I make my recommendations and let the management do what they are paid to do: make a decision.

Had Andi done that, maybe it would have gone better.

I rather enjoy Bandana as captain (though feel like her competence is getting laid on a little thick, as is Andi's insubordination). But I'm going through the same thing right now at work, where X is a terrible idea that cannot possibly work, and I've outlined why it cannot work in great detail, yet I have superiors pushing for X anyway. So I get the IT comment about being frustrated with something being a terrible idea.

The difference with Andi is that she is disagreeing with the overall strategic direction of the ship itself, rather than a particular technical decision. If Bandana had told Andi to replace the engine with something that couldn't actually fly the ship, the IT analogy might hold up a little better. Bandana actually overtly (albeit angrily) suggested that Andi do something to fix the problems (bent propellers, damaged ventral fins) without specifying a specific course of action; that sounds like a fairly reasonable boss to me. "Hey, we've got a problem, you're the expert in this area, can you fix this?" is fairly good management.

Not only that, by the time Andi was complaining to turn around, they were already at the half-way point in the pass. Perhaps in the heat of the moment, Bandana could have done a better job explaining that the giants would probably not give up if they turned around (or that turning around in the narrow pass would have been difficult and even more dangerous if the giants did not quit), but she at least gave a reasonable explanation.

I also wonder how the Mechane crew is going to feel about their three dead shipmates. That seems like a possible bigger source of conflict than a cowed and humbled Andi. Julio's adventures, to me, seemed to be implied to be of the fun-loving, swashbuckling kind, not gritty tragedy. I could be wrong on this; after all, Tarquin was pretty evil, yet Julio called him one of his B-list villains (which still makes me wonder, exactly who are Julio's A-list villains?).

[Unoriginal]

Add on the fact that Bandana was an acting captain who was new to the role and Andi had been set up as a bit of a rational problem solver who deals with people making dumb calls

Andi has never been set up as a rational problem solver who deals with people making dumb calls, and Bandana being new as captain never impacted on the skills she displayed.



the notion that Bandana was making bad calls from being green

A notion that was never presented in the comic.



but I feel being on her side at the very beginning was more justifiable than you're making it out to sound.


People being sympathetic to Andi because they are used to IT people being disrespected by incompetent managers does not make Andi's action more justifiable.


Had Andi been a real person and not a fictional stick figure NPC in a comedy fantasy universe, onto which I could project my fantasy of hitting the most annoying boss I've ever had in the head with a wrench, you would have a point.

But that projection has nothing to do with the actual situation.



Actually, her solution is superior.

Your way would have put Andi and the rest of the crew in the same boat so to speak with the captain on the other side. Now however the split occurs between Andi and the rest of the crew, which makes further rebellions a lot less likely to succeed, since can count on the crew backing her even less, because the captain sided with *them*.

Not saying that what Bandana did isn't the good option. I'd just wish the Mechane crew would get some comeuppance for not supporting Bandana immediately when she woke up. But eh, it's just me being petty and having lost pretty much all respect for the crew aside from Bandana.




I also wonder how the Mechane crew is going to feel about their three dead shipmates. That seems like a possible bigger source of conflict than a cowed and humbled Andi. Julio's adventures, to me, seemed to be implied to be of the fun-loving, swashbuckling kind, not gritty tragedy. I could be wrong on this; after all, Tarquin was pretty evil, yet Julio called him one of his B-list villains (which still makes me wonder, exactly who are Julio's A-list villains?).

Julio's crew, or at least a previous iteration of it, used to fight in a war. I don't think that death of a crewmate is a rare thing to happen

[Peelee]

I rather enjoy Bandana as captain (though feel like her competence is getting laid on a little thick, as is Andi's insubordination). But I'm going through the same thing right now at work, where X is a terrible idea that cannot possibly work, and I've outlined why it cannot work in great detail, yet I have superiors pushing for X anyway. So I get the IT comment about being frustrated with something being a terrible idea.

A.) Andi whacked her captain in the head with a wrench. I don't feel like people pointing that out is laying it on a little thick.

2.) If X really cannot possibly work, and you have explained why it cannot work (even ignoring the "in great detail"), then no, you are not going through the same thing at work. For it to be the same thing, X would have to be risky, and you would have to have disagreed due to not liking the risk.

[JumboWheat01]

Poor Elan, being turned into a walking Mending machine.

But yeah, I'd definitely say having a full-time ships wizard would be a smart idea. Preferably one who doesn't have Conjuration as one of their barred schools. Never know when you're gonna need more lifting gas.

[napoleon_in_rag]

Theyre "heroic" pirates though.

I know. A non-heroic pirate would have just killed Andi.

Bandanna is a pirate, not a paladin. So leaving Andi behind on a deserted isle (mountain peak?), giving her a good flogging, keel hauling her, etc would be perfectly in character. A stern warning with forfeiture of pay isn't.

I mean, Han Solo fired first, right?

[drazen]

A.) Andi whacked her captain in the head with a wrench. I don't feel like people pointing that out is laying it on a little thick.

2.) If X really cannot possibly work, and you have explained why it cannot work (even ignoring the "in great detail"), then no, you are not going through the same thing at work. For it to be the same thing, X would have to be risky, and you would have to have disagreed due to not liking the risk.

I mean I found the author to be laying on Andi's insubordination a little thick, what with the constant complaining and not doing her job.

As far as work, well, wouldn't something not working be a risk, and a stupid one at that? Also, I went on to say it wasn't a perfect analogy, as Andi was disagreeing about overall strategy/mission, rather than the technical specifications of how to complete that mission. I'm no stranger to someone wanting a program to do something really dumb, but that's not the same thing as an actual company policy. Fictional example: it might be a terrible company policy to give mileage reimbursements at only 5 cents a mile, but it's not a programmer's job to tell you that; it's his job to make sure that adjusting that rate in the future is easy, such as by putting it in an editable table somewhere, rather than hard-coding it; so if Bandana says make the ship fly higher, Andi would be right to object if she said something like "The ship will catch on fire if we go higher" or something, and in fact Bandana discussed this with Mateo early on in the ambush, and specifically requested as much altitude as possible, to which he replied that he could do a little but not much, and Bandana took the technical limitation to heart.

The one remotely technical objection Andi had - dumping the ballistae - made no sense, as without doing so, they clearly could not clear the ridge to get out of the dead end.

[Unoriginal]

But I'm going through the same thing right now at work, where X is a terrible idea that cannot possibly work, and I've outlined why it cannot work in great detail, yet I have superiors pushing for X anyway.

If you were actually going through the same thing at work than what happened in the comic, it would mean that X is the correct solution and absolutely work, even if there is risks to it, and that you, as the IT person saying it can't work, are in the wrong while your superior is in the right. It would also mean that you have a grudge against your superior for personal reasons rather than for their professional capacities, since it was a big part of Andi's reasons for her actions.

That you are right X cannot work and your superiors are wrong for pushing it, and that your disagreement is based on your expertise rather than personal isis enough to show the difference between the two situations.

I understand what you're saying about the frustration of having to handle incompetent managers or superiors who ignore one's input, but it is not what happened in the comic.



I know. A non-heroic pirate would have just killed Andi.

Bandanna is a pirate, not a paladin. So leaving Andi behind on a deserted isle (mountain peak?), giving her a good flogging, keel hauling her, etc would be perfectly in character. A stern warning with forfeiture of pay isn't.

I mean, Han Solo fired first, right?

Han shot first when held at gunpoint. He wouldn't have destroyed C-3PO if the droid had changed the course of his spaceship due to cowardice.

Given than Bandana still made clear this was the ONLY time she was going to tolerate something like that before making sure Andi won't be around to get Strike Three, I don't see how it's not in-character.

[pendell]

It's nice to see Bandana being tough, but not unreasonably so. She didn't let Andi get away with it, but she also didn't pull out an overly harsh punishment. She was fair.

Not only that, by distributing her money to the rest of the crew she makes them all the more loyal to her. So if Andi tries anything ever again, the crew will have a financial incentive to see her fail.

If it ever happens again, the crew will almost certainly side with Bandanna. Anyone who was on the quarterdeck at the time knows that Andi is completely out of her depth on any issue that doesn't involve engines, and moreover there are now financial reasons to stop her.

Well played, Bandanna :).

And that hopefully wraps up this little subplot so we don't have to ask why a pirate crew is simply taxiing our heroes wherever they want to go, at whatever risk necessary, for the rest of the story.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Unoriginal]

As far as work, well, wouldn't something not working be a risk, and a stupid one at that?

If it's completely guaranteed to not work, then it's not a risk, it's a failure that didn't yet happen.


so if Bandana says make the ship fly higher, Andi would be right to object if she said something like "The ship will catch on fire if we go higher" or something, and in fact Bandana discussed this with Mateo early on in the ambush, and specifically requested as much altitude as possible, to which he replied that he could do a little but not much, and Bandana took the technical limitation to heart.

The one remotely technical objection Andi had - dumping the ballistae - made no sense, as without doing so, they clearly could not clear the ridge to get out of the dead end.

And it's actually Andi who ignored her crew's information about how the ship couldn't get higher/couldn't get high enough to do what she wanted. Several times.

[Peelee]

I know. A non-heroic pirate would have just killed Andi.

Bandanna is a pirate, not a paladin. So leaving Andi behind on a deserted isle (mountain peak?), giving her a good flogging, keel hauling her, etc would be perfectly in character. A stern warning with forfeiture of pay isn't.

I mean, Han Solo fired first, right?
I concede your point, different people act differently.

I mean I found the author to be laying on Andi's insubordination a little thick, what with the constant complaining and not doing her job.

As far as work, well, wouldn't something not working be a risk, and a stupid one at that? Also, I went on to say it wasn't a perfect analogy, as Andi was disagreeing about overall strategy/mission, rather than the technical specifications of how to complete that mission.

Aha. Gotcha.

Also, as someone else said, a risk is something that has a significant chance to not work, not something that has no chance to work. Playing Russian Roulette is a risk*. Playing Russian Roulette with six in the chamber is not.

Lastly, I know it's not a perfect analogy, but we're just trying to agree on some of the details to make it good enough.

*I just put in one bullet, didn't I? There was like an 8% chance.

[Shining Wrath]

The reason an evil vampire cleric turned out to be such an issue is because that evil vampire cleric is trying to accomplish exactly what the Order is trying to prevent; something which would still be an issue if the cleric happened to not be evil, or not be a vampire. I really don't think Andi is plotting to destroy the Mechane before the Order gets to their destination, and those entities that are trying to do that are precisely the reason why the Mechane having an engineer of some sort is important. Keeping Andi around may be substandard in the wisdom department, but it's a lot more wise than dropping a risk to introduce a bigger risk.

There's all sorts of prior book connections that could be pointed out here; like how Andi's a risk, but less of one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1061.html); or how Andi and Bandana are who they are on their very worst day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html). But I don't think it's at all clear if Bandana's treatment of Andi is an intentional mirror of Roy's treatment of HPoH-pretending-to-be-Durkon, and/or if it's foreshadowing how Roy/O-Chul/etc. will use merciful graciousness to get Redcloak/MitD/etc. to help them on their world-saving quest in ways they couldn't manage on their own.

What were Andi's motivations for mutiny? My reading is first and foremost, panic; and secondly, contempt for Bandana as "just a kid". She's not motivated to destroy the world; to the contrary, she wants to live, that's what motivated her panic.


Yeah, that's the sense I'm getting, too. I think her attempt at leadership made it clear even to Andi that Bandana's a better captain.

What I'm saying is that what the team needs is an engineer in general, but that they can't realistically have one of those without risking something going horribly wrong at the worst possible moment, because they've decided to keep around a disloyal, rage filled, and stupid about not-engineering person to do ship stuff. To return to my earlier point, an evil vampire cleric is not better than no cleric at all.

Edit:
I don't think that what's happened in the comic suits that reading. Immediately regretful Andi has a whole pile of stuff she could have done following the wrenching, and she did none of those things. Instead, she doubled down in a manner consistent with an intentional mutiny, whether it was one or not. In particular, she could have just let Bandana's orders to go directly through the pass stand, or at least untied her when she woke up. Pretty much the only time she showed anything approaching regret was when the power shifted back to Bandana, and that was seemingly a fear reaction to being faced with an in power captain, one surrounded by her loyal crew, that she just mutinied. Who wouldn't be regretful in this context? She has a pretty good chance of being utterly screwed.

I think Andi has learned more respect for Bandana as a leader now. She was motivated by contempt for Bandana as "just a kid"; her own failures, Bandana's successes, and the obvious consensus of the crew as to who they trust as captain removes her motivation for mutiny. Why did she mutiny? She panicked because she thought Bandana could not possibly deal with the crisis. Then Andi's choices led to trouble, and Bandana dealt effectively both with getting off track and the Furkini Menace when Andi could not.

If you think Andi's a narcissist who cannot admit failure or respect anyone, these events will have no effect on her. If, however, she's an engineer who panicked and has learned something, she's not a future threat.


I wasn't on the forums at the time (this is actually my first post) but as someone who was on Andi's side in the beginning: the reason I was generally on her side is because as an IT person who has worked with any number of incompetent managers or clients there is a degree of... familiarity... felt when the engineer says "The thing is a terrible idea" and the captain says "I have heard your objection. I'm gonna do the thing anyways".

Add on the fact that Bandana was an acting captain who was new to the role and Andi had been set up as a bit of a rational problem solver who deals with people making dumb calls (see: the "we aren't being paid for this" thing where Bandana listened to her and agreed she was in the right and the Belkar cutting up the ship bit where she stood up to him and provided a practical solution that made them both happy) the notion that Bandana was making bad calls from being green and not listening to her more experienced engineer about what they realistically could do set up the idea that Andi might have been on to something with this whole "The captain doesn't know what they're doing and we need decisive action" bit.

Now obviously the point that being a good mechanic doesn't make you a good captain played out, but I feel being on her side at the very beginning was more justifiable than you're making it out to sound.

(also sorry if this conversation has already played out multiple times before and I just didn't see it)

Andi panicked; that's clear. And then having mutinied, acted irrationally out of fear. That's not good engineering judgment.

[The MunchKING]

Playing Russian Roulette with six in the chamber is not.

Or a Non-revolver. (I think they got a Darwin for that one.)

[ajp1011]

Even though Andi got off relatively lightly, as a reader I'm like "NO DON'T POKE HER, IT'S NOT SAFE, LET IT GO".

Exactly why she shouldn't have gotten off light... Probably would be too dark for OOtS, but in reality she should have been keel-hauled, tied to the mast and left to be pecked to death by crows.

[Garwain]

prediction: cut-away to the (vampirized) dwarven elders who are about to take a vote until the OoTS drops in (just in the nick of Mechane time). And then Belkar dies. (no good prediction can do without his death sorry)

[arimareiji]

Andi has never been set up as a rational problem solver who deals with people making dumb calls, and Bandana being new as captain never impacted on the skills she displayed.
Indeed, quite the opposite: "Good gods, Andi - overruling your crew's ideas is not the same as overruling their facts!" (1067)
They run aground and take damage, nearly smashing up, because Andi can't admit she's wrong as a matter of cold hard fact (no pun intended).

People being sympathetic to Andi because they are used to IT people being disrespected by incompetent managers does not make Andi's action more justifiable.
Again, indeed. The only similarity is that Andi is an engineer who's mad at her boss.
In every other aspect it's the opposite of the projected scenario: She leads with her ego and won't listen to competent people in their field of expertise, far outside her field of expertise. When her feelings are hurt because Bandana doesn't obey her, she attacks Bandana. When she's boss, she ignores the freakin' navigator on what the ship can clear.

I did a reread yesterday, and this has been foreshadowed for a while (at least as far back as Tinkertown). Things start off okay in 943 - but rapidly get worse (988, 1028, and especially 1043). 1061 says a lot - Andi has been topside trying to tell Bandana what to do since 1055, but Bandana is still giving her the benefit of the doubt and listening to her. Not until 1062 does Bandana yell at her to get back to doing her job, and Andi's response proves Bandana's later supposition (1066, which is also devastating) right - it's all about the fact she can't handle taking orders from someone she used to babysit.

[Kish]

I think claims that Andi's insubordination were being oversold are fundamentally defeated by the fact that people continue to downplay how in the wrong she was, and especially when the same person posts "the author laid on the insubordination a bit thick" and an assertion that Andi wasn't clearly in the wrong to mutiny in the same post, that seems to point directly to "the only thing that would have satisfied me would have been to have Andi not be actually completely in the wrong," eliminating every alternative on either side.

[factotum]

Exactly why she shouldn't have gotten off light... Probably would be too dark for OOtS, but in reality she should have been keel-hauled, tied to the mast and left to be pecked to death by crows.

As already pointed out, keel-hauling on a flying ship wouldn't really do much. The main reason that keel-hauling was a horrible punishment in real ships is that (a) the person being punished would be underwater for a significant amount of time and (b) the ship's hull would have all sorts of marine life clinging to it, many of which would have nice sharp shells to cut and tear at the flesh of the prisoner. Neither would be true of a flying vessel.

[anonynos]

Han shot first when held at gunpoint. He wouldn't have destroyed C-3PO if the droid had changed the course of his spaceship due to cowardice.


Well... he /might/. He'd certainly threaten it at the least.

[Unoriginal]

As already pointed out, keel-hauling on a flying ship wouldn't really do much. The main reason that keel-hauling was a horrible punishment in real ships is that (a) the person being punished would be underwater for a significant amount of time and (b) the ship's hull would have all sorts of marine life clinging to it, many of which would have nice sharp shells to cut and tear at the flesh of the prisoner. Neither would be true of a flying vessel.

Well, the flying equivalent would be to force the person to do a lot of bungee-jumping

[Kantaki]

Exactly why she shouldn't have gotten off light... Probably would be too dark for OOtS, but in reality she should have been keel-hauled, tied to the mast and left to be pecked to death by crows.

And what have the poor crows done that would even remotely justify doing that to them?

[Kardwill]

What were Andi's motivations for mutiny? My reading is first and foremost, panic; and secondly, contempt for Bandana as "just a kid". She's not motivated to destroy the world; to the contrary, she wants to live, that's what motivated her panic.




I think Andi has learned more respect for Bandana as a leader now.

I don't think her lesson here is respect : She was afraid, panicked, went berserk, took over by accident when she understood what she did (getting the crew out of danger and proving she was a better captain was her only chance of avoiding punishment), and failed miserably, putting everyone in danger and escalating the situation that made her panic in the first place. And when B took control back from her, she immediately surrendered without even a word.

Is she a little bit more willing to respect B now that she experienced firsthand the stress of command and of having people's lives depend on your next order? Maybe.
But mostly, she knows she really, REALLY, doesn't want to be in command ever again. That's the reason she surrendered immediately : She was actually content that somebody else would take the command mantle from her and people would stop asking her to give orders and save everybody. Even if that meant obeying "baby Bandana's" orders, and possibly facing harsh punishment.

[hamishspence]

As already pointed out, keel-hauling on a flying ship wouldn't really do much. The main reason that keel-hauling was a horrible punishment in real ships is that (a) the person being punished would be underwater for a significant amount of time and (b) the ship's hull would have all sorts of marine life clinging to it, many of which would have nice sharp shells to cut and tear at the flesh of the prisoner. Neither would be true of a flying vessel.

This may be more "water vessel converted to fly" though:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html

it can make water landings, even if it may not be as waterproof as it used to be.

[Shining Wrath]

I don't think her lesson here is respect : She was afraid, panicked, went berserk, took over by accident when she understood what she did (getting the crew out of danger and proving she was a better captain was her only chance of avoiding punishment), and failed miserably, putting everyone in danger and escalating the situation that made her panic in the first place. And when B took control back from her, she immediately surrendered without even a word.

Is she a little bit more willing to respect B now that she experienced firsthand the stress of command and of having people's lives depend on your next order? Maybe.
But mostly, she knows she really, REALLY, doesn't want to be in command ever again. That's the reason she surrendered immediately : She was actually content that somebody else would take the command mantle from her and people would stop asking her to give orders and save everybody. Even if that meant obeying "baby Bandana's" orders, and possibly facing harsh punishment.

If she knows she's incapable of command, there is little chance she will stage another mutiny, and thus she's only dangerous if she encourages someone else to stage their own mutiny. Which seems unlikely, since no one has really leapt up and asked for Bandana to be deposed. NOMFWIC, is NOMFWIC.

[Jay R]

As already pointed out, keel-hauling on a flying ship wouldn't really do much. The main reason that keel-hauling was a horrible punishment in real ships is that (a) the person being punished would be underwater for a significant amount of time and (b) the ship's hull would have all sorts of marine life clinging to it, many of which would have nice sharp shells to cut and tear at the flesh of the prisoner. Neither would be true of a flying vessel.

True.

But this is a pirate ship. The classic punishment for pirates isn't keel-hauling; it's walking the plank -- which can be quite effective on a flying ship.

[KorvinStarmast]

If we're gonna hold everyone to IRL standards then You are the one that dragged in RL tension into the discussion. :smallwink: Remember, I've been on both sides of that RL (and at times damnably frustrating) tension.

Drama is all about taking characters and pushing them until they break, one way or the other.
Andi broke.
You reveal who you really are under stress—stress doesn't magically turn you into someone else unrelated to who you usually are. Stress is what brought the break.


In a way "breaking" a character in a narrative (or in RL, but we do not do that to our fellow humans) is you take away all his means and things he does and thinks to life a normal life and confront him with a situation where he has to behave based on his most basic instincts. " The Marines call this boot camp.

Back to our regularly scheduled program. :smallcool:

A comment on redemption.
Rich has in a number of strips commented on redemption, and in a few posts that Jasdoif doubtless has in his index.

Bandana recognizes that Andi panicked at the worst possible time, demonstrating that she is utterly NOT cut out for command. When the pressure was on, she cracked and cracked early.

Bandana, by showing mercy (strike 1!) but also accountability and boundaries (you won't live to strike 3!) and punishment for wrongdoing (share split by rest of crew) not only dispenses justice, but she also opens the door for Andi to redeem herself in a future situation where the ship needs her. In a previous strip her point to Andi was being good at your role. Whether Rich chooses to wander off and show Andi redeeming herself in a subsequent strip remains to be seen, but the door is open for a penitent Andi to make good because Bandana has set up the opportunity for that to happen, rather than just tossing Andi over the side.

(I've seen the military justice system do both in the past: punish but open the door for redemption, and dispose of / write off the discipline case ...)

[ChillerInstinct]

I'm a good person and unless the need for an engineer is something that the ship needs before anything else, I would have tossed her overboard at this strike.

That's the thing, though. They DO need an engineer, there's no time to replace her, and even if there was, finding and training a suitable replacement is just not feasible right now. Even then, for all of her character faults, no one knows the Mechane's inner workings like Andi does.

They need her, and Bandana knows it. Regardless of alignment, sheer pragmatism dictates that Andi can't simply be killed, or imprisoned, or banished, etc. That's a good part of the reason Bandana's way of handling it is so elegant in its simplicity. Andi COULD, in theory, try to get away with whatever she wants again, because she's not expendable. But no one's going to back her up next time, and given the circumstances any "victory" she could win in a best case scenario would be Pyrrhic at best.

[factotum]

This may be more "water vessel converted to fly" though:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html

it can make water landings, even if it may not be as waterproof as it used to be.

That strip implies to me that the Mechane has not been in water for a very, very long time. Any marine life that might have been left on the hull will have died and likely dropped off long since, even assuming they didn't take the opportunity of the ship being out of the water to clear the fouling--which it's likely they *did*, since doing so would save weight and reduce drag.

[Matt620]

I hope this stupid meandering plot of the Mechane crew ends and we can get on to the real story.

A quintessential lesson on why some minor characters should never be given expanded roles.

[littlebum2002]

This may be more "water vessel converted to fly" though:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html

it can make water landings, even if it may not be as waterproof as it used to be.

I think you're missing a significant part of the physics involved. In a normal ship, the person being keel-hauled will float in the water, therefore being dragged along the bottom of the ship. On a flying ship, they'll just dangle at the end of the rope until they are pulled up the other side. No matter what's under there, it's not going to scrape them.

[Peelee]

This may be more "water vessel converted to fly" though:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html

it can make water landings, even if it may not be as waterproof as it used to be.

Devil's advocate: an Airbus can make a water landing. Doesn't make it a good idea.

[Jay R]

Devil's advocate: an Airbus can make a water landing. Doesn't make it a good idea.

But then you can make keel-hauling work!

[nocoolnamejim]

Add me firmly onto the side of the people who think that Andi got off WAY to easily and to a lesser extent so did the entire Mechane crew.

For example, they could easily have untied Bandana immediately after she woke back up. It took a Picard speech by her to get them to flip back to Bandana's side enough to do the obvious and remove the emotionally unstable, idiot incompetent from command. I understand they were, at first, just going along with Andi's orders because they were in the middle of a crisis and Bandana had been knocked out cold but after Bandana woke up and there were no more Frost Giants around and they didn't immediately restore her to being in command they became complicit in the mutiny themselves to a certain extent. (Although you could make the argument they were to busy with other things to untie her.)

I understand that for the moment Bandana needs the crew's support, but by the same token, she also needs to be able to trust in the future that they won't go along with future betrayals and will have her back in a crisis, something that they definitely did NOT do in this arc. To top it all off, they're going to end up getting a BONUS by dividing up Andi's share of the loot? They get off completely free for their role and get a bonus to boot?

From a practicality standpoint going light on both for now makes a certain amount of sense as I can buy the arguments that it's the wrong time, place, and situations for handing down more severe punishments. The ship is badly damaged and needs a repairs and an engineer. They're on a deadline right now and need to prioritize. These are good arguments for Bandana letting certain things slide for now. But I sure hope that we haven't seen the end of future punishments.

[pendell]

Add me firmly onto the side of the people who think that Andi got off WAY to easily and to a lesser extent so did the entire Mechane crew.

For example, they could easily have untied Bandana immediately after she woke back up. It took a Picard speech by her to get them to flip back to Bandana's side enough to do the obvious and remove the emotionally unstable, idiot incompetent from command. I understand they were, at first, just going along with Andi's orders because they were in the middle of a crisis and Bandana had been knocked out cold but after Bandana woke up and there were no more Frost Giants around and they didn't immediately restore her to being in command they became complicit in the mutiny themselves to a certain extent. (Although you could make the argument they were to busy with other things to untie her.)

I understand that for the moment Bandana needs the crew's support, but by the same token, she also needs to be able to trust in the future that they won't go along with future betrayals and will have her back in a crisis, something that they definitely did NOT do in this arc. To top it all off, they're going to end up getting a BONUS by dividing up Andi's share of the loot? They get off completely free for their role and get a bonus to boot?

From a practicality standpoint going light on both for now makes a certain amount of sense as I can buy the arguments that it's the wrong time, place, and situations for handing down more severe punishments. The ship is badly damaged and needs a repairs and an engineer. They're on a deadline right now and need to prioritize. These are good arguments for Bandana letting certain things slide for now. But I sure hope that we haven't seen the end of future punishments.

I think part of the reason this isn't going to happen is because Bandanna grew up on this ship. Andi was her baby sitter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1066.html) once upon a time. It's hard to play draconian ship captain with the people who changed your diapers.

Probably not many Heinlein fans here but the closest analog I can think of in fiction is the ship Sisu from Heinlein's Citizen of the Galaxy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_of_the_Galaxy). Everybody on the ship is family. Father is captain, mother is first officer, Mother-in-law runs the entire ship and has the ship's title of something like quartermaster. One does not simply enlist in such a ship. One marries, or is adopted, into it.

You don't just throw someone like that out the airlock when they do something stupid. I mean, okay, Mal did it once (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjgGWOpksEw). But even he let up once Jayne showed genuine remorse.

So Bandanna has more than the task of keeping good order on the ship; it's also repairing a dysfunctional family. Not to mention, Julio is the one who brought Andi aboard. Yeah, Bandanna could probably answer Julio when he asks what's happened to his chief engineer, but it's probably better to hand the entire ship back in as close to one piece as possible.

And yes, I know that it isn't exactly a family relationship but it still looks a lot closer to a family-style relationship than a corporate-style one.

ETA: Which doesn't mean Bandanna won't put Andi off or kill her if something like this happens again. But she's giving her a chance, and that's a good thing in this case. To quote Heinlein again, "Every dog gets one bite, but only one" .


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mandor]

Nice. Also smart of Bandana to leave exactly what happens at Strike Two unspecified.

It could mean, "I'll fire you and boot you off at the first safe port",
It could mean, "I boot your behind off my ship, with one week's food and two week's water, even if we're in the middle of nowhere... or over an ocean".
It could mean, "I hack your head off and punt it off the starboard bow".

And really just lets Andi's imagination fill in the blanks.

[Mandor]

I hope this stupid meandering plot of the Mechane crew ends and we can get on to the real story.

A quintessential lesson on why some minor characters should never be given expanded roles.

Tarquin had preconcieved notions about what the story was "supposed" to be, too. Even tried to force it.

I mean, yes, OK, the story means different things to different people, and while Rich is ultimate arbiter on where the story goes and when (unless someone has mind-control rays...), some of us actually enjoy a plot with multiple threads and sideplots. The Lord of the Rings wasn't JUST about Frodo getting to Mount Doom and tossing in a ring. There was also Merry and Pippin off on a tangent with Treebeard, Pippin becoming a soldier of Gondor, and Merry befriending Theoden of the Rohirrim. And the Wheel of Time went to truly amazing lengths to have a world full of plots and subplots and threads and counter-threads.

Now, granted, a web comic, even one I enjoy as much as OOTS, is not exactly up there in that league.
But I bet there's a number of people who are quite content to just see where the story goes, instead of wanting it shaped to their view.

[danielxcutter]

But I bet there's a number of people who are quite content to just see where the story goes, instead of wanting it shaped to their view.

May I sig this? It feels important enough to warrant that.

[arimareiji]

Nice. Also smart of Bandana to leave exactly what happens at Strike Two unspecified.

It could mean, "I'll fire you and boot you off at the first safe port",
It could mean, "I boot your behind off my ship, with one week's food and two week's water, even if we're in the middle of nowhere... or over an ocean".
It could mean, "I hack your head off and punt it off the starboard bow".

And really just lets Andi's imagination fill in the blanks.

I don't think the Mechane's "severance" policy would be as harsh as Bozzok's, but you're right that it's best to leave it unspecified and ominous. When you regularly have to count on people to be doing their job to stay alive, you can't afford a loose cannon.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Bandana is not much of a pirate. A real pirate would have done something horrible to Andi like keel hauling or 24 lashes with a cat-o-nine tails.

Aww, I was sure the pirate penalty for treason was hanging by the yardarm. Or at least a keel-hauling.
What in the name of Julio Scoundrél gives you the idea that the Mechane has real pirates on it?




I know. A non-heroic pirate would have just killed Andi.
Bandanna is a pirate, not a paladin. So leaving Andi behind on a deserted isle (mountain peak?), giving her a good flogging, keel hauling her, etc would be perfectly in character. A stern warning with forfeiture of pay isn't.
I mean, Han Solo fired first, right?
It took a whole movie of character development before he could really be considered "heroic," and Greedo was actively threatening him. Besides, if you expect heroic non-paladins to leave former allies to die over one mistake (serious) mistake, and consider failure to do so paladin-ey, you may need to get your alignment gauge checked.
And again: What in Julio's name makes you think the Mechane has real pirates on it?




When you regularly have to count on people to be doing their job to stay alive, you can't afford a loose cannon.
Well, it might not hurt to be able to keep them a little loose, in case you need to drop them in a hurry.

[Rogar Demonblud]

What in the name of Julio Scoundrél gives you the idea that the Mechane has real pirates on it?

For some reason, this line made me want a StickTales version of The Pirates of Penzance.

[Mandor]

May I sig this? It feels important enough to warrant that.
By all means. As a default, I assume anything I post anywhere can be copy/pasted and/or used against me in a court of law.
But I appreciate the courtesy of asking. :smallsmile:

[Mandor]

I mean, Han Solo fired first, right?
While technically true, I feel this distorts the actual sequence of events.

Han Solo was the only one who fired a shot at all.

Greedo threatened him with the gun waving it in his face. But Greedo never fired a single shot. He was blasted to oblivion first.
Unless of course you consider the travesty of the George Lucas do-over, which is heresy in some parts. :smallsmile:

[Peelee]

While technically true, I feel this distorts the actual sequence of events.

Han Solo was the only one who fired a shot at all.

Greedo threatened him with the gun waving it in his face.

In addition to the other threat.

Solo: Over my dead body.
Greedo: That's the idea.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

One thing I was always taught with regards to guns and gun safety (my dad grew up on a cattle ranch, and my grandfathers both served time as soldiers) was that you never point a gun at anything you're not willing to shoot.

With the blaster pointed at Han and his finger on the trigger, Greedo's intent is clearly deadly. Essentially, it's self-defense.

[Peelee]

One thing I was always taught with regards to guns and gun safety (my dad grew up on a cattle ranch, and my grandfathers both served time as soldiers) was that you never point a gun at anything you're not willing to shoot.

With the blaster pointed at Han and his finger on the trigger, Greedo's intent is clearly deadly. Essentially, it's self-defense.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but Hollywood has god-awful trigger discipline.

[Luccan]

I'd like to add to the "Does Andi deserve greater punishment" discussion: they do not have time. Looking at the pros and cons of harsher punishment right now:

Pros: Andi cannot (murder or being forced to leave) or is less likely (locked up, whipped, injured, etc.) to do this again.

Cons:
1. They have to either drop her off or assign someone to watch/beat her. That's time/manpower they can't spare.

2. If they just toss her overboard or kill her in some other quick fashion, it might be negligible time, but then you have to deal with the fact that your captain just killed your Chief Engineer. And these guys are LN-CN at their worst. They don't do revenge killing, not when everyone got out alive and the mutineer just surrendered.
2a.Plus, Andi did think she was doing the right thing. She was just completely wrong. She wasn't trying to kill anyone. Also, Andi might be annoying and be too self assured, but she probably has friends on that ship, who at least are going to be grieving a dead friend, if one that makes poor decisions as captain. That'll slow things down

3. She's chief engineer and they need repairs. She got that job because she knows what she is doing and again, that would a waste of manpower. Unless she plans on putting everyone's lives at risk on purpose, she'll at least stay in line until they make their destination.

[Draconi Redfir]

I hope this stupid meandering plot of the Mechane crew ends and we can get on to the real story.

A quintessential lesson on why some minor characters should never be given expanded roles.

that was the real story though. i mean, it's there in the official comic and everything.

now i mean, if it was one of the old fanfics written by CWater or something then sure but this is official.

[factotum]

While technically true, I feel this distorts the actual sequence of events.

Han Solo was the only one who fired a shot at all.

The weird thing is, that particular change can't possibly have been part of Lucas' original vision, which was his excuse for a lot of the Special Edition "upgrades"--he wouldn't have had his bounty hunter sitting six feet away from Solo if he intended him to shoot first *and then miss*, because anyone with half a brain would realise that's utterly ridiculous.

[hamishspence]

That strip implies to me that the Mechane has not been in water for a very, very long time. Any marine life that might have been left on the hull will have died and likely dropped off long since, even assuming they didn't take the opportunity of the ship being out of the water to clear the fouling--which it's likely they *did*, since doing so would save weight and reduce drag.


But then you can make keel-hauling work!

This combination, would change it from a death sentence, into something painful but not lethal - land on water, keelhaul, the result is a scraping, but probably not a deadly one.

[snowblizz]

That strip implies to me that the Mechane has not been in water for a very, very long time. Any marine life that might have been left on the hull will have died and likely dropped off long since, even assuming they didn't take the opportunity of the ship being out of the water to clear the fouling--which it's likely they *did*, since doing so would save weight and reduce drag.

The type of stuff attaching to boats do not generally "drop off" even when dead. The calcified stuff they build up remains until you scrape it off. At considerable effort.

[Jay R]

Am I missing some sort of cultural reference, or some reference to something earlier in the story? Are we supposed to know who the "plucky little lieutenant" with the "big lightning cannons" is?

[hamishspence]

Am I missing some sort of cultural reference, or some reference to something earlier in the story? Are we supposed to know who the "plucky little lieutenant" with the "big lightning cannons" is?

It's a reference to this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0977.html

As the only gnome invited to dinner with the others:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html

it makes sense that Andi would have had time to talk with them a bit more.

[Keltest]

The weird thing is, that particular change can't possibly have been part of Lucas' original vision, which was his excuse for a lot of the Special Edition "upgrades"--he wouldn't have had his bounty hunter sitting six feet away from Solo if he intended him to shoot first *and then miss*, because anyone with half a brain would realise that's utterly ridiculous.

My recall is that Lucas thought that solo shooting first made him look too much like a bad guy, as if greedo's deadly intent couldn't be inferred from the death threats and the blaster.

[Jay R]

It's a reference to this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0977.html

As the only gnome invited to dinner with the others:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html

it makes sense that Andi would have had time to talk with them a bit more.

Right. Thanks. I thought I was missing something.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

The type of stuff attaching to boats do not generally "drop off" even when dead. The calcified stuff they build up remains until you scrape it off. At considerable effort.
Although events like coming under fire on entering Azure City and the Machane scraping it's way over a mountain a few strips ago would probably have done at least part of the job, assuming there's anything left.

[KorvinStarmast]

I hope this stupid meandering plot of the Mechane crew ends and we can get on to the real story Noted.

For some reason, this line made me want a StickTales version of The Pirates of Penzance.
When the talkyman drops his steel
Taran tara taran tara
We uncomfortable feel
Taran Tara
Xykon's solo even fits the meter of the song.
I am the very model of a modern big bad evil guy...

With the blaster pointed at Han and his finger on the trigger, Greedo's intent is clearly deadly. Essentially, it's self-defense. Essentially is not needed in the last sentence. (I concur with the general assessment).

I'm not saying you're wrong, but Hollywood has god-awful trigger discipline.Amen.

The type of stuff attaching to boats do not generally "drop off" even when dead. The calcified stuff they build up remains until you scrape it off. At considerable effort. Let's not trash talk Andi too badly. She'll get her mind right.
All she and Bandana had there was a failure to communicate, which has been resolved.

My recall is that Lucas thought that solo shooting first made him look too much like a bad guy, as if greedo's deadly intent couldn't be inferred from the death threats and the blaster.In the original movie, Solo was very much the outlaw/mercenary, at introduction. He'd have been a worse character otherwise.

[Keltest]

In the original movie, Solo was very much the outlaw/mercenary, at introduction. He'd have been a worse character otherwise.

I understand that, Solo was definitely not a nice person, and I think Lucas' reasoning (assuming I am remembering correctly) was deeply flawed. But being an outlaw in a tyrannical government isn't exactly a massive indicator of his overall character, and I can kind of see how Lucas wouldn't want people to come away with the impression that Solo would shoot Luke and Ben over a monetary dispute.

[Peelee]

My recall is that Lucas thought that solo shooting first made him look too much like a bad guy, as if greedo's deadly intent couldn't be inferred from the death threats and the blaster.

If this were the Harry Potter universe, subtlety would be Lucas patronus. And it'd be in the shape of a freight train.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If this were the Harry Potter universe, subtlety would be Lucas patronus.

Do you mean boggart?

GW

[Peelee]

Do you mean boggart?

GW

Well, without the underlying sarcasm, absolutely.

[Shining Wrath]

Do you mean boggart?

GW

George Lucas considers subtlety He Who Must Not Be Named.

[ORione]

As the only gnome invited to dinner with the others:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html


Nitpick, but it was brunch, not dinner. Haley got free passes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html)

[factotum]

and I can kind of see how Lucas wouldn't want people to come away with the impression that Solo would shoot Luke and Ben over a monetary dispute.

Why would anyone come away with that impression? Greedo was pointing a gun at Han and pretty obviously threatening to kill him, anyone who comes away from that thinking that Han was in the wrong for shooting him probably has nightmares about all the (relatively) innocent people who got killed when the Death Star blows up.

[Kish]

Lucas did explicitly say that people who wanted Han to shoot first wanted Han to be a cold-blooded killer. That said, it's a ridiculous strawman whether it comes from Lucas or from Keltest; Greedo's threats were plenty explicit and the actual impression created by "Han won't fire until he's actually shot at at point blank range" is that Han is abysmally stupid. (If anything, he killed Greedo just after getting an indication that Greedo wasn't a threat even though he wanted to be, since apparently he couldn't hit a human-sized target a few feet away.)

[Unoriginal]

Concerning the "Han shot first" discussion:


For my understanding, Lucas's original intent was that Greedo wasn't going to tell and Han's backstory and that it would come in a later scene where he talked with Jabba. Thing is, the special effects weren't finished on time, so they had to make Greedo says it. The SF Debris's video on Star Wars has for hypothesis that it's possible Greedo wouldn't have had subtitles translating what he's saying, just like the Jawas, the alien who get his arm chopped by Kenobi in the Cantina, and Chewbacca before his dialogue become more important, so the viewers would only have had Han's side of the conversation.

Taking this into account, it's possible that Lucas felt Han gunning down Greedo without the audience understanding what was said painted Han in a way too dark manner compared to what he wanted. I mean, even with Greedo holding Han at gunpoint, imagine the dialogue without Greedo's subtitles:


"Oonta goota, Solo?"

"Yes, Greedo, as a matter of fact I was just going to see your boss. Tell Jabba that I've got his money."

"Somepeetchalay. Vara trahm ne tach vakee cheetha. Jabba wanin cheeco-wa
rush anye katanye wanaruska, heh heh heh. Chas kin yanee ke chusoo."

"Yeah, but this time I've got the money."

"Enjaya kul a intekun kuthuow."

"I don't have it with me. Tell Jabba--"

"Tens hikikne. Hoko ruya pulyana oolwan spa steeka gush shuku ponoma three pe."

"Even I get boarded sometimes. Do you think I had a choice?"

"Tlok Jabba. Boopa goompah-kne et an anpaw."

"Over my dead body."

"Ukle nyuma. cheskopokuta klees ka tlanko ... ya oska."

"Yes, I'll bet you have." *Shoot Greedo*

Without knowing what Greedo is saying, all the audience would know is that Han Solo owes money , due to something involving being boarded, to someone called Jabba, who then sent Greedo.

Note that while the words are technically from the Quechua language, they were picked at random and don't mean anything. For all anyone would know, "Ukle nyuma. cheskopokuta klees ka tlanko ... ya oska." could have meant "He'll let you live, but he wants the money now. I did everything I could... old friend."

In particular, if I recall correctly, afterward Jabba expresses disbelief about why Han would shoot Greedo, with Han saying something like "talk to me in person next time, don't send those goons to do so", which doesn't make sense if Greedo was originally threatening to kill Han.

Now, considering the Special Edition does contain the scene where Jabba and Han discuss the smuggler's backstory (in often redundant terms with the scene with Greedo), it is possible that Lucas wanted to remove Greedo's subtitles, but added making the alien shoot to make sure that there would be no one thinking Han was just a murderer.

If it turns out they really added Greedo firing because Lucas wanted the subtitles removed, it was an even worse idea to keep the subtitles. But it'd be somewhat more understandable.

Now, in the last version both Greedo and Han shoot at more or less the same time, making it more like a western shootout than Greedo missing a man sitting three feet away from his gun.

But eh, it's just an hypothesis.



Also, it's not fair to say that Lucas is afraid of subtlety. His work contains several great things done in a subtle way. The problem is that if he gets an idea about how something goes, however ham-fisted, it is very, very hard for him to change his mind.

EDIT

Also worth noting, the dialogue they wrote for Greedo's subtitles is kinda contradictory. First he tells Han that Jabba doesn't want anything to do with Han anymore even if he can pay, then that he (Greedo) might let Han live if he gives him the money, then that Jabba might let Han go if he told Jabba he had no choice and gave the Hutt his ship (contradicting the earlier statement about Jabba wanting Han dead regardless of the money). Not to mention that Greedo's statement about Jabba being done with Solo is contradicted in the scene where Jabba comes to talk with Han, and his statement about Jabba placing a bounty on Han's head is contradicted by Jabba saying that he *will* do that if Han doesn't pay him back.

So I could understand that the scene going the way it went wasn't Lucas's first choice, but more something that was put together when the film was getting finished.

EDIT 2:

And Han's line of "Yeah, but this time I've got the money." could have been interpreted to indicate him not paying the money he owes happened several times, or that he was asked several times to do so beofre.

[martianmister]

Why would anyone come away with that impression? Greedo was pointing a gun at Han and pretty obviously threatening to kill him, anyone who comes away from that thinking that Han was in the wrong for shooting him probably has nightmares about all the (relatively) innocent people who got killed when the Death Star blows up.

Actually it was quite common in critics of "Greedo shot first".


The principal objection from critics seems to be that the change dilutes and compromises Han's rebellious and ruthless nature. The change is felt to detract from Han's antiheroic qualities, and diminishes the character's growth and development over the story from a Machiavellian smuggler who cares only about himself (and his co-pilot Chewbacca) into a committed member of the Rebel Alliance fighting to bring freedom to the galaxy, as his shot is clearly in self-defense

[Kish]

You do realize you just quoted, not anyone actually embodying the strawman you, Keltest, and George Lucas all want to beat up, but yet another person asserting that position is totally out there somewhere, right?

I've never seen it. What I have seen is people who defend Lucas' changes (including Lucas himself) asserting it. And many, many, many people (myself included, as in my prior post here) saying that, no, we object to Han being turned into a brain-dead moron who doesn't consider a blaster backed up by "I'm going to kill you, MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABWAHAHA!" a justification for shooting before the threatener actually pulls the trigger.

[martianmister]

You do realize you just quoted, not anyone actually embodying the strawman you, Keltest, and George Lucas all want to beat up, but yet another person asserting that position is totally out there somewhere, right?

Me? :smallconfused:

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think it's aimed at Unoriginal's book up above your post.

[Unoriginal]

I think it's aimed at Unoriginal's book up above your post.

I beg your pardon?

[Kish]

I was addressing martianmister.

[pendell]

Does anyone see a parallel between Han shooting Greedo first and Haley pre-emptively icing Crystal waay back when? Both the protagonists knew that the villain was attempting to kill them, so they acted first rather than playing defense against a threat they might not defeat. Sort of like football/American soccer. Why deliberately play defense and give the other side a shot at your goal, when you could score and prevent them having any opportunities at all?

For me, I think Han's action is a lot more defensible than Haley's. Han was being held at gunpoint by a man who was gloating over killing him, and nowhere outside of movie theaters do people miss from five feet away. By contrast, Crystal was unarmed and taking a shower when Haley stabbed her. The first was self-defense. The second was ... well, it's a lot closer to murder, since it's not being done in the heat of the moment. In my view.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rogerborg]

Wooo! Another episode about Blandy, Blandana and Blandix on the airship Blandane.

Please please please produce some merchandise featuring these, uh, characters, so that nobody can buy it, ever.

Alternatively, if you really must tell this riveting, patchin' tale, how about spinning it off into its own series so that true believers can squeeze their eyes up really tight and assert that they're enjoying it, yes, they are.

[Kantaki]

Wooo! Another episode about Blandy, Blandana and Blandix on the airship Blandane.

Please please please produce some merchandise featuring these, uh, characters, so that nobody can buy it, ever.

Alternatively, if you really must tell this riveting, patchin' tale, how about spinning it off into its own series so that true believers can squeeze their eyes up really tight and assert that they're enjoying it, yes, they are.

You know, if you like an story arc you can say so.
You don't have to hide it behind sarcasm.:smalltongue:

[martianmister]

I was addressing martianmister.

I quoted it from here (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Han_shot_first), and I see same arguements before, from many different fans. How's that a strawman?

[Peelee]

Oooh, is it time for a rousing game of "I don't like this arc, so I'll assume nobody else does either?" Great! We're in the lightning round now, where we see how The Giant would think of that complaint based on his previous comments.


If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles—whether those struggles are external or internal, relevant to the MacGuffin plot or not—and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing. And more importantly, I won't care.


Wooo! Another episode about Blandy, Blandana and Blandix on the airship Blandane.

Please please please produce some merchandise featuring these, uh, characters, so that nobody can buy it, ever.

Alternatively, if you really must tell this riveting, patchin' tale, how about spinning it off into its own series so that true believers can squeeze their eyes up really tight and assert that they're enjoying it, yes, they are.

I don't care.

I slightly paraphrased a word, but I suspect the author wouldn't mind.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Does anyone see a parallel between Han shooting Greedo first and Haley pre-emptively icing Crystal waay back when? Both the protagonists knew that the villain was attempting to kill them, so they acted first rather than playing defense against a threat they might not defeat. Sort of like football/American soccer. Why deliberately play defense and give the other side a shot at your goal, when you could score and prevent them having any opportunities at all?

For me, I think Han's action is a lot more defensible than Haley's. Han was being held at gunpoint by a man who was gloating over killing him, and nowhere outside of movie theaters do people miss from five feet away. By contrast, Crystal was unarmed and taking a shower when Haley stabbed her. The first was self-defense. The second was ... well, it's a lot closer to murder, since it's not being done in the heat of the moment. In my view.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The second is a lot more immediate when you have the 'Get Roy' sequence in hand, and you see Crystal make several attempts to kill Haley in the middle of a mission.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wooo! Another episode about Blandy, Blandana and Blandix on the airship Blandane.
Woo! Another identical post from a guy who is incapable of realisign that his opinions are not universal and that, in fact, more forumnites like Bandana and her issues than not.


Please please please produce some merchandise featuring these, uh, characters, so that nobody can buy it, ever.
Like you were told last time, not only is there such merchandise, I have in fact purchased it.

TL;DR: you are wrong.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

Woo! Another identical post from a guy who is incapable of realisign that his opinions are not universal and that, in fact, more forumnites like Bandana and her issues than not.


Like you were told last time, not only is there such merchandise, I have in fact purchased it.

TL;DR: you are wrong.

GW

Resistance is futile. He *will* assimilate the entire forum into his view, and The Giant as well. A few days after the heat death of the universe

[Keltest]

I quoted it from here (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Han_shot_first), and I see same arguements before, from many different fans. How's that a strawman?

Indeed, and I don't have a horse in this race either way, so I'm not sure why Kish is accusing me of strawmanning anything?

[Jasdoif]

For me, I think Han's action is a lot more defensible than Haley's. Han was being held at gunpoint by a man who was gloating over killing him, and nowhere outside of movie theaters do people miss from five feet away. By contrast, Crystal was unarmed and taking a shower when Haley stabbed her. The first was self-defense. The second was ... well, it's a lot closer to murder, since it's not being done in the heat of the moment. In my view.So...would you feel better about it if Haley had goaded Crystal into attacking her first?

[Keltest]

So...would you feel better about it if Haley had goaded Crystal into attacking her first?

If you don't know about the bonus scenes in the actual paid for book, Haley comes off looking a lot worse there because it isn't made immediately clear that Bozzok has no interest in upholding the truce either. It makes Haley seem very much like she is murdering somebody, taking a whole bunch of loot, and fleeing to the hills instead of heading off a legitimate threat that was already coming for her.

[Jasdoif]

So...would you feel better about it if Haley had goaded Crystal into attacking her first?If you don't know about the bonus scenes in the actual paid for book, Haley comes off looking a lot worse there because it isn't made immediately clear that Bozzok has no interest in upholding the truce either. It makes Haley seem very much like she is murdering somebody, taking a whole bunch of loot, and fleeing to the hills instead of heading off a legitimate threat that was already coming for her.Is...that a "yes"?

[Keltest]

Is...that a "yes"?

Given that I am not pendell, I cant answer that.

But it was intended more as "do you not see how Haley comes off as pretty brutal there without the bonus content?"

[Kish]

I've never seen the logic of classifying Haley's killing of poor, defenseless, vicious, sadistic Crystal as worse than Roy killing any random goblin in the Dungeon of Dorukan, myself.

(If it's about "she broke a truce with the even more evil Bozzok by doing so": Hello, Chaotic.)

[Keltest]

I've never seen the logic of classifying Haley's killing of poor, defenseless, vicious, sadistic Crystal as worse than Roy killing any random goblin in the Dungeon of Dorukan, myself.

(If it's about "she broke a truce with the even more evil Bozzok by doing so": Hello, Chaotic.)

I, at least, was caught off guard by the savagery Haley displayed in that scene. In the online comic, her history with Crystal is treated as somewhat comedically overblown by both of them, the thieves' guild is poorly positioned as a credible threat (especially since Haley and Belkar slaughtered like 80% of them between themselves) and Bozzok's opinion on the truce is given almost no screen time, at least that I can find.

[Jasdoif]

But it was intended more as "do you not see how Haley comes off as pretty brutal there without the bonus content?"Certainly.

I am, however, more curious if Haley provoking Crystal into attacking first would make it a "less-murderous" killing because it's self-defense at that point. And at the hyperbolic level, if Haley has to choose between being a "murderer" and being a "victim" against any combatant who can outfight her and will only do so at times where they have the advantage.

[Draconi Redfir]

i will never understand people who read / watch a story and then claim that a section of it was not part of the story.

that's like claiming the whole wicked witch of the west thing was not part of the story in the wizard of oz. or that the caterpiller was "just a distraction" in alive in wonderland.

like dude, it's in the story. it's part of the story. it's impossible for us to "get back to the story" because we never LEFT the story.

[Keltest]

Certainly.

I am, however, more curious if Haley provoking Crystal into attacking first would make it a "less-murderous" killing because it's self-defense at that point. And at the hyperbolic level, if Haley has to choose between being a "murderer" and being a "victim" against any combatant who can outfight her and will only do so at times where they have the advantage.

Its less that its murder, which as you pointed out is within expected parameters for a chaotic character, and more about how she was killing somebody for her own personal satisfaction and to send a message to bozzok rather than as an actual way to head off a legitimate threat. As Haley points out, Crystal can pretty much guarantee a resurrection (barring the fact that Bozzok is apparently as stupid as Crystal is), so killing her isn't exactly a huge impediment to her ability to go after Haley.

[Jasdoif]

Its less that its murder, which as you pointed out is within expected parameters for a chaotic character, and more about how she was killing somebody for her own personal satisfaction and to send a message to bozzok rather than as an actual way to head off a legitimate threat. As Haley points out, Crystal can pretty much guarantee a resurrection (barring the fact that Bozzok is apparently as stupid as Crystal is), so killing her isn't exactly a huge impediment to her ability to go after Haley....huh. Never heard that angle before....And the strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html) already had Haley knowing they were teleporting out, so delaying the thieves' guild from trailing/attacking them doesn't apply...and she would know the guild has access to resurrection if there's a scroll around for the "independent" cleric of Loki to have used, so a raise dead level kill like that is intentionally less of a setback...and killing Crystal to take and use/sell her stuff doesn't actually improve the situation.

Now I'm wondering exactly how much the bonus strips mitigate. :smallconfused:

[Kish]

Now I'm getting that some people were on a fundamentally different page from me to begin with.

I never thought Haley killing Crystal was about self-defense or "threat mitigation" or anything other than Crystal being her evil enemy. With or without the bonus strips. And again--an enemy far easier to justify killing than any one of the goblins Roy was upset about getting away here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0024.html).

[Keltest]

...huh. Never heard that angle before....And the strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html) already had Haley knowing they were teleporting out, so delaying the thieves' guild from trailing/attacking them doesn't apply...and she would know the guild has access to resurrection if there's a scroll around for the "independent" cleric of Loki to have used, so a raise dead level kill like that is intentionally less of a setback...and killing Crystal to take and use/sell her stuff doesn't actually improve the situation.

Now I'm wondering exactly how much the bonus strips mitigate. :smallconfused:

The bonus strips, at the very least, leave open the possibility that Crystal could be trying to go after Haley even before she teleports away, and the fact that she is actually in the shower is largely due to Crystal being an idiot who doesn't understand Haley at all.

[haley123]

Or, as I realized after I posted, he could use his wand of healing. He hasn't used that at all.



Felix: Way too dark. Dun is the current fashion in threat levels, although we do have one in taupe.

Do you happen to have any greige?

[haley123]

The bonus strips, at the very least, leave open the possibility that Crystal could be trying to go after Haley even before she teleports away, and the fact that she is actually in the shower is largely due to Crystal being an idiot who doesn't understand Haley at all.

or of course all the old villans come at the final battle scene and everything goes crazy,ending with a large explosion
probably.:smallsigh:

[Mandor]

If you don't know about the bonus scenes in the actual paid for book, Haley comes off looking a lot worse there because it isn't made immediately clear that Bozzok has no interest in upholding the truce either. It makes Haley seem very much like she is murdering somebody, taking a whole bunch of loot, and fleeing to the hills instead of heading off a legitimate threat that was already coming for her.

I have zero problems with Haley killing Crystal while she was just getting out of the shower. If someone has been your arch nemesis for several years, attempted to kill you several times, came very very close only a matter of hours ago, and still verbally rages at you, you have for all intents and purposes a declaration of war without end. In that situation, it is cleanest and best to just WIN the damn war. You're not going to convince Crystal to play nice. She WILL get you when your back is turned.

Now, i'll admit, it would have been cooler if she could have handled in like Londo vs Reefa in Babylon 5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_sBNX9dP-M

[Keltest]

I have zero problems with Haley killing Crystal while she was just getting out of the shower. If someone has been your arch nemesis for several years, attempted to kill you several times, came very very close only a matter of hours ago, and still verbally rages at you, you have for all intents and purposes a declaration of war without end. In that situation, it is cleanest and best to just WIN the damn war. You're not going to convince Crystal to play nice. She WILL get you when your back is turned.

Now, i'll admit, it would have been cooler if she could have handled in like Londo vs Reefa in Babylon 5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_sBNX9dP-M

The problem there is that, by her own admission, she is doing very little to substantially affect Crystal's ability to come after her by killing her. Taking her gear was a much bigger impediment, and she didn't need to kill Crystal to do that.

[Peelee]

The problem there is that, by her own admission, she is doing very little to substantially affect Crystal's ability to come after her by killing her. Taking her gear was a much bigger impediment, and she didn't need to kill Crystal to do that.

She did say, "IF Bozzok raises you...". Inflection here. She wasnt 100% sure it would not affect her ability to come after her.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

With regards to Haley and Crystal:

Haley's an adventurer. Adventurers are supposed to kill and loot. The very mechanics of leveling up, of combat and wealth-by-level guidelines, of the OOTS world, reflect victory and acquisition as the purpose of existence and the means by which personal growth and progression take place.

If you think about it, the more loot and XP the order can get, the better their chances against Xykon, and thus, the better the chances of creation not being unmade by the Snarl (at least, so long as the way in which the Order get that loot and XP doesn't create obstacles to saving the world).

:belkar:Clearly, the solution is to kill and loot as much as possible!

[B. Dandelion]

I, at least, was caught off guard by the savagery Haley displayed in that scene. In the online comic, her history with Crystal is treated as somewhat comedically overblown by both of them, the thieves' guild is poorly positioned as a credible threat (especially since Haley and Belkar slaughtered like 80% of them between themselves) and Bozzok's opinion on the truce is given almost no screen time, at least that I can find.

That was pretty much my reaction at the time as well. Even before the bonus strips were released, I didn't consider it an "evil" act, but it was unexpected and felt more vicious and hateful than anything else. They were shown to have not gotten along from the instant that they met, long before it could have been an issue of good or evil, and it was a really petty hate at that. One of the last times we'd seen them on screen together, Crystal was asking Bozzok for permission to not kill her! So having Haley come in and all but assassinate her... it was jarring, and while Crystal certainly had it coming, the "self-defense" argument seemed weak.

The bonus strips (is "bonus strips" the correct term for a sequence that was apparently already drawn up but then cut for time?) do more firmly establish that Crystal and Bozzok are determined to kill Haley, but while the self-defense aspect is shored up somewhat there, I think what they most effectively do is set the tone for what comes after. She goes through the sequence trying to work professionally with Crystal who is "surreptitiously" trying to kill her the entire way, and Haley just has to keep taking the steady stream of abuse, betrayal, and idiocy. Oh, and Crystal pointlessly murders Grubwiggler, whom Haley had started to win over to the side of negotiation. Having that come right before Haley gets the drop on her in the end gives it an entirely different feel that isn't just about old teenage drama, but more firmly about what a terrible psychopath Crystal is and how Haley got the last laugh.

[hamishspence]

In particular, if I recall correctly, afterward Jabba expresses disbelief about why Han would shoot Greedo, with Han saying something like "talk to me in person next time, don't send those goons to do so", which doesn't make sense if Greedo was originally threatening to kill Han.


In the novel, there was a bit less redundancy in Greedo's lines. And more lines from Han in both conversations. The idea seems to be that Greedo has gone outside of what Jabba asked him to do - or at least, that's what Jabba's claiming.

Han & Greedo
"Going somewhere, Solo?"
The Corellian couldn't identify the voice, coming as it did through an electronic translator. But there was no problem recognizing the speaker or the gun it held stuck in Solo's side.
The creature was roughly man-sized and bipedal, but its head was something out of delirium by way of an upset stomach. It had huge, dull-faceted eyes, bulbous on a pea-green face.
A ridge of short spines crested the high skull, while nostrils and mouth were contained in a tapir-like snout.
"As a matter of fact," Solo replied slowly, "I was just on my way to see your boss. You can tell Jabba I've got the money I owe him."
"That's what you said yesterday—and last week—and the week prior to that. It's too late, Solo. I'm not going back to Jabba with another one of your stories."
"But I've really got the money this time!" Solo protested.
"Fine. I'll take it now, please."
Solo sat down slowly. Jabba's minions were apt to be cursed with nervous trigger fingers. The alien took the seat across from him, the muzzle of the ugly little pistol never straying from Solo's chest.
"I haven't got it here with me. Tell Jabba—"
"It's too late, I think. Jabba would rather have your ship."
"Over my dead body," Solo said unamiably.
The alien was not impressed. "If you insist. Will you come outside with me, or must I finish it here?"
"I don't think they'd like another killing in here," Solo pointed out.
Something which might have been a laugh came from the creature's translator.
"They'd hardly notice. Get up, Solo. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. You've embarrassed me in front of Jabba with your pious excuses for the last time."
"I think you're right."
Light and noise filled the little corner of the cantina, and when it had faded, all that remained of the unctuous alien was a smoking, slimy spot on the stone floor.
Solo brought his hand and the smoking weapon it held out from beneath the table, drawing bemused stares from several of the cantina's patrons and clucking sounds from its more knowledgeable members. They had known the creature committed its fatal mistake in allowing Solo the chance to get his hands undercover.
"It'll take a lot more than the likes of you to finish me off. Jabba the Hutt always did skimp when it came to hiring his hands."
Leaving the booth, Solo flipped the bartender a handful of coins as he and Chewbacca moved off. "Sorry for the mess. I always was a rotten host."

Han & Jabba
The docking-bay entrance to the small saucer-shaped spacecraft was completely ringed by half a dozen men and aliens, of which the former were by half the most grotesque. A great mobile tub of muscle and suet topped by a shaggy scarred skull surveyed the semicircle of armed assassins with satisfaction. Moving forward from the center of the crescent, he shouted toward the ship.
"Come on out, Solo! We've got you surrounded."
"If so, you're facing the wrong way," came a calm voice.
Jabba the Hutt jumped—in itself a remarkable sight. His lackeys likewise whirled—to see Han Solo and Chewbacca standing behind them.
"You see, I've been waiting for you, Jabba."
"I expected you would be," the Hutt admitted, at once pleased and alarmed by the fact that neither Solo nor the big Wookiee appeared to be armed.
"I'm not the type to run," Solo said.
"Run? Run from what?" Jabba countered. The absence of visible weapons bothered Jabba more than he cared to admit to himself. There was something peculiar here, and it would be better to make no hasty moves until he discovered what was amiss.
"Han, my boy, there are times when you disappoint me. I merely wish to know why you haven't paid me ... as you should have long ago. And why did you have to fry poor Greedo like that? After all you and I have been through together?"
Solo grinned tightly. "Shove it, Jabba. There isn't enough sentiment in your body to warm an orphaned bacterium. As for Greedo, you sent him to kill me."
"Why, Han," Jabba protested in surprise. "Why would I do that? You're the best smuggler in the business. You're too valuable to fry. Greedo was only relaying my natural concern at your delays. He wasn't going to kill you."
"I think he thought he was. Next time don't send one of those hired twerps. If you've got something to say, come and say it yourself."
Jabba shook his head and his jowls shook — lazy, fleshy echoes of his mock sorrow. "Han, Han—if only you hadn't had to dump that shipment of spice! You understand … I just can't make an exception. Where would I be if every pilot who smuggled for me dumped his shipment at the first sign of an Imperial warship? And then simply showed empty pockets when I demanded recompense? It's not good business. I can be generous and forgiving—but not to the point of bankruptcy."
"You know, even I get boarded sometimes, Jabba. Did you think I dumped that spice because I got tired of its smell? I wanted to deliver it as much as you wanted to receive it. I had no choice." Again the sardonic smile. "As you say, I'm too valuable to fry. But I've got a charter now and I can pay you back, plus a little extra. I just need some more time. I can give you a thousand on account, the rest in three weeks."
The gross form seemed to consider, then directed his next words not to Solo but to his hirelings. "Put your blasters away." His gaze and a predatory smile turned to the wary Corellian.
"Han, my boy, I'm only doing this because you're the best and I'll need you again sometime. So, out of the greatness of my soul and a forgiving heart—and for an extra, say, twenty percent—I'll give you a little more time." The voice nearly cracked with restraint. "But this is the last time. If you disappoint me again, if you trample my generosity in your mocking laughter, I'll put a price on your head so large you won't be able to go near a civilized system for the rest of your life, because on every one your name and face will be known to men who'll gladly cut your guts out for one-tenth of what I'll promise them."
"I'm glad we both have my best interests at heart," replied Solo pleasantly as he and Chewbacca started past the staring eyes of the Hutt's hired guns. "Don't worry, Jabba, I'll pay you. But not because you threaten me. I'll pay you because…it's my pleasure."

[StreamOfTheSky]

Andi got off far too lightly, and didn't even really have to admit she was wrong or apologize. :smallmad:

I get that they have no one else at the moment to fulfill her duties on the ship, but I really hope she isn't actually off the hook after this (pending no more "strikes", of course).

[arimareiji]

Andi got off far too lightly, and didn't even really have to admit she was wrong or apologize. :smallmad:

I get that they have no one else at the moment to fulfill her duties on the ship, but I really hope she isn't actually off the hook after this (pending no more "strikes", of course).

I'd certainly feel that impulse myself, but in terms of results what purpose would it serve? Bandana had two choices: Make Andi go bungee jumping without the bungee cord, or get obedience and make absolutely clear who's boss.

If Andi's sorry and believes she was wrong, it's a much more effective check on her behavior than externally-imposed obedience. Humiliating her by making her say it publicly only stokes resentment. There is certainly a risk (balanced against the risk created by giving her a one-way Fly spell) that she's not sorry at all, but making her say it doesn't make her become sorry - it just humiliates her, stoking resentment.

Considering that the whole reason for Andi's behavior was irrational resentment, why would you want to feed it?

[Shoelessgdowar]

I know. A non-heroic pirate would have just killed Andi.

Bandanna is a pirate, not a paladin. So leaving Andi behind on a deserted isle (mountain peak?), giving her a good flogging, keel hauling her, etc would be perfectly in character. A stern warning with forfeiture of pay isn't.

I mean, Han Solo fired first, right?

No, Han did not shoot first... First implies a succession of at least a second shot... Han Shot, Greedo Died, there is no First about it.

It should be "Han Shot"


True.

But this is a pirate ship. The classic punishment for pirates isn't keel-hauling; it's walking the plank -- which can be quite effective on a flying ship.

Actually walking the plank was rare. If you wanted someone overboard they shoved them or tossed them. Walking the Plank is a dramatic demonstration popularized in movies because it adds suspense and allows for last moment saves and daring stunts.

Common punishments were lashes with whips or cat-o-nine-tails, keel hauling (most frequently with the same ropes used to scrape the hull in the first place of those barnacles and other sea life), tying to the mast (allowing for exposure to the elements) for a few days, marooning (leaving them on a deserted isle with traditionally a bottle if water, a bottle of powder, a pistol, and a single shot or bullet), dunking from the yard arm, sold into slavery, or having their nose and ears slit and being abandoned in a port town where those cuts would mark them as a traitor and thief (used for when one Pirate Stole from their fellow crew).


While technically true, I feel this distorts the actual sequence of events.

Han Solo was the only one who fired a shot at all.

Greedo threatened him with the gun waving it in his face. But Greedo never fired a single shot. He was blasted to oblivion first.
Unless of course you consider the travesty of the George Lucas do-over, which is heresy in some parts. :smallsmile:

Yup, Han Shot, Greedo dropped.


Does anyone see a parallel between Han shooting Greedo first and Haley pre-emptively icing Crystal waay back when? Both the protagonists knew that the villain was attempting to kill them, so they acted first rather than playing defense against a threat they might not defeat. Sort of like football/American soccer. Why deliberately play defense and give the other side a shot at your goal, when you could score and prevent them having any opportunities at all?

For me, I think Han's action is a lot more defensible than Haley's. Han was being held at gunpoint by a man who was gloating over killing him, and nowhere outside of movie theaters do people miss from five feet away. By contrast, Crystal was unarmed and taking a shower when Haley stabbed her. The first was self-defense. The second was ... well, it's a lot closer to murder, since it's not being done in the heat of the moment. In my view.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

If Crystal had never tried to harm or kill Haley, you would be right. But Crystal was exploiting Haley for XP, and had tried to kill her before. Haley was just making sure that wouldn't happen again (unsuccessfully).

For those not grasping it... 1) Haley considered a chance Bozzok wouldn't Resurrect Crystal (which technically she was right, Crystal was Special Golemed, not Resurrected), 2) She was depriving Crystal of gear and wealth (both of which would hinder Crystal's future attempts at killing Haley, if Crystal was Resurrected), 3) Resurrection Spell is more than twice as expensive as Raise Dead Spell, which means Bozzok might consider skimping and paying for that instead (Meaning Crystal, already high level from being Haley's Rival, would still come back at more than consiserable level, losing only 1 to the spell... a minor loss for Bozzok toward Crystal as muscle, but a clear advantage in future encounters for Haley as Crystal would be trailing by a level in spite of the Nemesis Rules), 4) Haley was sending a message to Bozzok, because he's been screwing her family for a while (not Heroic, but Haley is Chaotic Good raised by a Paranoid 1st Edition Thief)

[GreatWyrmGold]

While technically true, I feel this distorts the actual sequence of events.

Han Solo was the only one who fired a shot at all.
"Shot first" is usually synonymous with "didn't get shot," except in larger gunfights.




The weird thing is, that particular change can't possibly have been part of Lucas' original vision, which was his excuse for a lot of the Special Edition "upgrades"--he wouldn't have had his bounty hunter sitting six feet away from Solo if he intended him to shoot first *and then miss*, because anyone with half a brain would realise that's utterly ridiculous.
Also, there's no way the SFX budget was one laser shot short of his Original Vision. And the Original Vision thing is, in general, demonstrably bollocks. I mean, at one point there were plans for Anakin and Darth Vader to show up onscreen together. (Also, Obi-Wan called Anakin "Darth". Also, LukexLeia.)




Nitpick, but it was brunch, not dinner. Haley got free passes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html)
Also, you can't have breakfast burritos for dinner. (They'd just be called "burritos".)




-snip-
Any viewer who thought that Greedo meant no harm to Han would have to have missed the gun Greedo pointed at Han. Even in Hollywood, where gun safety means not actively trying to shoot yourself, pointing a gun at someone means you want to hurt them very much.




Wooo! Another episode about Blandy, Blandana and Blandix on the airship Blandane.

Please please please produce some merchandise featuring these, uh, characters, so that nobody can buy it, ever.

Alternatively, if you really must tell this riveting, patchin' tale, how about spinning it off into its own series so that true believers can squeeze their eyes up really tight and assert that they're enjoying it, yes, they are.
This kind of thing makes me really want to write that essay about OotS themes...but it'd be so time-consuming...sigh I'll start drafting.

[Peelee]

Also, there's no way the SFX budget was one laser shot short of his Original Vision. And the Original Vision thing is, in general, demonstrably bollocks. I mean, at one point there were plans for Anakin and Darth Vader to show up onscreen together. (Also, Obi-Wan called Anakin "Darth". Also, LukexLeia.)

I think at this point there are more "Lucas' original version"s than there are actual different versions he made under those claims.

Also, you can't have breakfast burritos for dinner. (They'd just be called "burritos".)

Well, a breakfast burrito usually has eggs and bacon/sausage, which I wouldn't expect in something just called a burrito. Though, to be fair, burritos are usually named for what's inside of them anyway. I'm on the fence about this one, actually.

[Goblin_Priest]

Its less that its murder, which as you pointed out is within expected parameters for a chaotic character, and more about how she was killing somebody for her own personal satisfaction and to send a message to bozzok rather than as an actual way to head off a legitimate threat. As Haley points out, Crystal can pretty much guarantee a resurrection (barring the fact that Bozzok is apparently as stupid as Crystal is), so killing her isn't exactly a huge impediment to her ability to go after Haley.

Yea, I didn't have the bonus content, and last time I re-read that, it did surprise me as exceptionally viscious and brutal. She killed her in cold blood for the sake of killing her. I never had the impression Bozzok wouldn't respect the deal, and there was no reason to believe that Crystal would ever be a threat again.

[pendell]

Yea, I didn't have the bonus content, and last time I re-read that, it did surprise me as exceptionally viscious and brutal. She killed her in cold blood for the sake of killing her. I never had the impression Bozzok wouldn't respect the deal, and there was no reason to believe that Crystal would ever be a threat again.

Well, the bonus comics -- which I read -- make it pretty clear that he had no intention of honoring the deal. And even if he had , Haley would have to pay him a cut of her earnings and she's not really in a position to do that. That's not even greed. That's a grim reality that in a world where you have to spend $$$$$ to repair an airship that you literally can't afford to be shipping gold off to a chaotic evil villain in Cliffport.

Haley knew that as soon as the first payment was missed Bozzak would come after her, if he didn't do so before. So she simply cut to the chase and killed Bozzok's henchman as a clear message to not mess with her.

That is the sort of thing Mob members would do to each other in the Godfather. And it's entirely the sort of thing Haley would do.

But I'm still not happy with it. It is at best a chaotic neutral act. I can't imagine Elan doing anything like that. He spared Kubota when he had him at swordpoint despite the obvious problems this would cause down the road. When Tarquin killed Nale, Elan bewailed this fact and would have spared Nale if the choice had been up to him -- even if the more pragmatic Haley noted that Nale totally deserved what he got.

Elan is one of the most unambiguously good characters in the strip, perhaps because his purity is untarnished by anything resembling common sense. And he seems ... protected, by authorial fiat if you will.

So, Jasdoif, if you're reading this, I'm going to answer your original question from two perspectives: From Stickverse logic and real-world logic.

The Stickverse has an author who believes in karmic retribution, and ensures everyone in it receives poetic justice. That's why Elan is guaranteed a happy ending while Belkar is fated to die. Their deeds have an impact on the world around them and shape their fate.

And the more Haley is like Elan and not like Belkar, the more likely she will have a happy ending.

This has already happened in-universe: Haley's action of killing Crystal has already come back to bite her because it did not stop Crystal. It just powered her up to become far more dangerous than she'd ever been as a live assassin.

Which sort of argues that if you're going to kill someone in Stickverse who needs to stay dead, destroying the body beyond any possibility save True Resurrection should be pro forma for anyone whose job is killing people. But I digress.

So this is the answer I'm going to give you, Jasdoif: When Haley killed Crystal in the shower, her action was chaotic neutral at best. It certainly wasn't self-defense in the most rigid legal sense and if she tried in the modern world, she'd be convicted of first degree murder. The fact that a person is planning on killing you at an unspecified future date does not give you license to kill them first, in the eyes of the law.

Stickverse karma kicked in: Haley killed a dangerous human assassin, and the Stickverse threw a golem assassin back at her. What would have happened if she had spared Crystal's life?

The most likely answer is : Things in Tinkertown would have happened much the same way, except that we would be facing human Crystal instead of Golem-Crystal, and a lot more Gnomes who are now dead would still be alive.

So, from my utilitarian perspective, Haley's action was wrong because it made the situation worse. It would have been better for her to take the high road and spare Crystal's life and trust the forces which shape the universe to protect her as they do Elan, rather than acting as she did. After all, a lot can happen after she leaves Crystal, and she didn't even kill her beyond the possibility of raising.

In the real world.. gosh this is too long already, so I'll keep it short -- in the real world my experience is that badly behaved human beings have a tendency to bring their own destruction down on themselves. If you steal from your customers too often, they stop buying from you. If you break too many rules on a webforum, the mods kick you out. Whatever forces exist in the universe, humans in this world definitely feel the consequences of your actions and push back.

So in my real-world life as a civilian I've found the wiser course is almost always to simply get away from those kind of people rather than retaliating in kind or attempting to encompass their destruction. If they really are that bad, I don't need to hasten their self-destruction, especially since doing so may very well mean I'll get caught up in it. Even if I mean them good instead of ill, that still won't save them from themselves. And on the other side , if they really are much better and we've just got off to a bad foot, distancing myself allows us both to get on with our lives in peace -- and it means I won't mistakenly cause harm to someone who's innocent. It also leaves open the option of re-establishing communications later. Thus, even from a purely material, utilitarian perspective the least-cost solution is to step out of the situation rather than escalate it into what could potentially be a very dangerous situation.

The shorthand for this is 'do not pay back anyone evil for evil, but overcome evil with good'. That doesn't work well on a battlefield or in a military situation, but in my ordinary civilian life it works quite well indeed.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

Nitpick, which I wouldn't post for alone, but see no reason not to mention since I am posting anyway: Bozzok was Neutral Evil.


And the more Haley is like Elan and not like Belkar, the more likely she will have a happy ending.

I don't really think that follows. I see no indication Solt Lorkyurg wasn't a saint, and he died a quick and brutal death right after he came onstage. Durkon is thoroughly Good and he's certainly not happy at the moment. Lirian seems just as good as Elan and she's spent decades in Xykon's pocket.

I expect Roy, Haley, Durkon, and Elan to all have happy endings, none without suffering. If it turns out that their happy endings can be ranked in order of moral standing, then I'll be surprised.


This has already happened in-universe: Haley's action of killing Crystal has already come back to bite her because it did not stop Crystal. It just powered her up to become far more dangerous than she'd ever been as a live assassin.

Except she wound up being dangerous enough to kill Bozzok (who was at least four levels above her level when she was alive, not counting the level Crystal would have lost from being raised), and as Haley pointed out, the money Bozzok spent to turn her into a golem could have gone toward magic items for her to use against Haley--so I don't think it's true that "Crystal comes after you as a golem!" was some kind of karmic punishment. It happened because of how Bozzok reacted to losing face to Haley and having a dead Crystal on his hands--not because she'd done something wrong. If she had destroyed the body, Bozzok would still have come after her, his ego even more wounded, and maybe he would have used a method that she couldn't have turned against him.

Even if she didn't have powerful new magic items, a level 16-17 assassin could have cleaved through the gnomes just about as efficiently as the golem could, and Crystal's reaction to Haley flying out of her reach would have been just the same.

I still don't believe her killing Crystal was about self-protection, but as a general principle, if Haley trusted to "the forces that protect Elan" rather than trying to protect herself, she could, observably, have wound up in Xykon's pocket, or lying on the ground bleeding out as a strange halfling chuckled about finding a chocolate bar in her pockets, gasping, "but....karma!"

[2D8HP]

i will never understand people who read / watch a story and then claim that a section of it was not part of the story....


Tom Bombadil.




(Your right about OotS though, as all of it is AWESOME!)



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yhYEWvWkWLg