Plane Shift: Amonkhet

[jaappleton]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/downloads/magic/plane-shift_amonkhet.pdf

Looking at Races now.

Here's a highlight:

Hawk Headed Aven
Flight
+2 Dex, +2 Wis
Proficiency in Perception
Can attack at long range without Disadvantage

Uhhhh.... Yeah. I'll take my flying Revised Ranged, please.

Also, a bunch of new Cleric domains. They're kinda amalgamations and rehashes of other Cleric domains, but there's a LOT to like there. Some of these are pretty damn sweet, honestly!

[mgshamster]

Awesome. Really want to play a naga.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Ooh, I really love that they do these. They're the closest things we get these days to new setting books.

I had need of ancient Egyptian stuff in an upcoming game, too!

[alchahest]

I'm at work so can't check, but, are there rules for the Khopesh anywhere?

[nickl_2000]

I'm at work so can't check, but, are there rules for the Khopesh anywhere?

There is one, kind of....

khopesh—a large sickle-bladed sword—as their weapon of choice (treat as a longsword).

[alchahest]

Rad. Is that inside the Amonkhet pdf, or in another supplement?

[nickl_2000]

Rad. Is that inside the Amonkhet pdf, or in another supplement?

It's inside the Amonkhet pdf in a few different places

[alchahest]

thanks!

I'll give it a good read when I get home

[DracoKnight]

Overall, I really love this. Mainly because it gives me the ability to now write up an Owl-Headed Aven subrace. Been wanting to play an owl-man forever now.

They did a fantastic job on this one. This is the only Plane Shift that has made me want to play in the setting on the first read.

[solidork]

The Zeal domain is suuuper good. You can maximize Fire/Thunder spells and also get Fireball and Destructive Wave. You get auto knockback with thunder damage, which seems awesome with Booming Blade.

Naga getting to automatically restrain on a grapple is the other thing that really jumps out at me.

I might steal the Strength domain channel divnity for my nascent Paladin oath based around pursuing and inspiring others to pursue perfection. It gives +10 to a strength based ability check, attack roll or saving throw.

[Sariel Vailo]

I like the khenra race also the article on planeswalking.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

I find all of the races in this article pretty interesting, although I have to admit I don't really see the Khenra Twin feature getting a lot of mileage unless one of the other players is willing to play your twin sibling.

The Naga is particularly interesting because I've been trying to do playable Lamias (of the "human from the waist up, snake from the waist down" variety) for a long time. I'm surprised at how they handled it, but I quite like it. Maybe I should give my old D&D Lamia, with its Leonic, Caprine, and Serpentine subraces, a remake...

[NecroDancer]

As always there are overpowered choices so that's nothing new.

I really like the flavor of this world and although I'm not a fan of the domain abilities I really like the spell lists.

[jaappleton]

Zeal is absolutely on the strong side. No doubt about that.

But the other domains? I LOVE them. Especially the one that's almost like Trickery. I love it for an Illusionist flavor.

[Ralanr]

Minotaur just seem like orcs with horns now.

The jackels seem to be a bit overpowered imo with fear immunity if their twin is dead or if they were born without one.

I want to make a mystic of both of these races though.

[TheCrowing1432]

Anyone got links to the rest of the plane shift pdfs?

[toapat]

Anyone got links to the rest of the plane shift pdfs?

Zendikar (https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/magic/Plane%20Shift%20Zendikar.pdf): This one is really god damn annoying, Zendikar is an enigma of a planet and the supplement barely influences the core idea

Innistrad (http://d1bf78c87087c77d76ca-be4120a00702a7d33079a120750230c5.r45.cf1.rackcdn.c om/Plane%20Shift%20Innistrad%20SFG_2.pdf): basically a conversion for Curse of Strahd. I wanted statblocks for Avacyn, Gisela, Bruna, Sigarda, Daddy, and Thalia.

Kaladesh (https://media.wizards.com/2017/downloads/magic/Plane-Shift_Kaladesh.pdf): This supplement barely goes into making "Shadowrun, but DnD, and not evil" setting. its really stupid and only goes like, a third of the way to doing it right. It outright bars most classes

So far the only one that isnt utter trash, is the utter trash setting for a DnD campaign

[Theodoxus]

With a little massaging, you could turn this setting into a pretty decent simulacrum of Athas... The 5 gods are all but Sorcerer-Kings in name, and it'd be a sinch to mold the cleric domains into Templar orders...

So, you'd have that aspect done. It's just a matter of getting the psionics right, and the rest of the setting in place... but I'd be shocked if, when the Dark Sun book drops, someone doesn't comment on how it feels like Amonkhet...

[toapat]

Comment #1 overal: My real problem with Planeshift: Almondcat is that the plane is not a good DnD setting. You either love Nicol Bolas or have found the runes of the Tresspasser's Curse.
Isnt the Initiate background, literally just soldier with different Trait/Ideal/Flaw/Bond, and slightly more free items?

i like that the divine aspects in the ideals are not good aligned. people keep making the mistake that White = Good in the DnD spectrum, when RAW White is Lawful Neutral.

Vizier is a new background entirely?

all 3 backgrounds essentially have a version of Foolk Hero's trait which is boring.


the T/I/F/B lists order the gods based in trial order: Solidarity > Knowledge > Strength > Ambition > Zeal. which is still enraging for a MTG player but correct for the plane.

Humans: Same old same sandwich

Aven: Theyre elves, basically. i kinda want to make a Sun Soul Hawk Aven.

Khenra: ya thats a bit OP

Minotar: meh

Naga: sure speed burst fits for the fluff, but, just. Ew. The grapple is OP

Solidarity, domain of Catmom: Lvl 1 feature seems like a bard ability.

Knowledge, Domain of Failurefinch: Other than being tied to a terrible god, cant exactly call a core domain crap

Strength, Domain of the Arrogant: Cleric should NOT get destructive Wave as its bad enough that Lore bards can steal the spell, and the capstone seems a bit OP

Ambition, Domain of treachery: Lacks backstabing, otherwise is fine

Zeal, Domain of the Dogemother: The Dogemother is definitely making an offer you cant refuse. Bight be a bit stronk but that capstone looks really cool

Angels, Demons: Same kind of bS. Fan Favorite the Giant Crocodile is now the Ammit demon.

Sphinx: Ooh, new sphinx, Less awesome than the PHB ones. Also Less Timelord which is disappointing.

Eternals: Undead terminators nerfed into mundane Wights.

Heart Piercer Manticore: from a cr 3 which can kick ass using its flight to a practical death machine, this thing is NOT Cr5

Longcats: Missing statistics for their Claw Attack.

[Misterwhisper]

I stopped reading at a race with flight, +2 dex, and a subrace that gives +2 wis, no penalty to long range shooting and perception training.

Nope, pass.

[Theodoxus]

How are the khenra OP? They're wood elf halflings, what get to choose - or have chosen for them, inferior Lucky or superior Brave. Frightened isn't so common that immunity is OP. Getting bonuses to Dex and Str is arguably worse than most any other combo outside of Int and Cha... And the weapon proficiencies are boring.

I'm not seeing anything remotely OP about the race...

[toapat]

inferior Lucky

Lucky is 3/day max. Khenra Twins is all rolls so long as youre within LoS. yes the race is trash if you cant get a buddy to be your twin

They basically only make good barbarians however

Edit:


I stopped reading at a race with flight, +2 dex, and a subrace that gives +2 wis, no penalty to long range shooting and perception training.

Nope, pass.

Strictly speaking, the setting itself is unplayable if your not doing a Planeswalker campaign

[Arkhios]

Lucky is 3/day max. Khenra Twins is all rolls so long as youre within LoS. yes the race is trash if you cant get a buddy to be your twin.

Um, I believe Theodoxus referred to the halfling racial trait Lucky, not the feat. Halfling Lucky is basically same as the Khenras' trait except they don't need a twin within LoS. Thus, inferior compared to Halfling Lucky

[DracoKnight]

Um, I believe Theodoxus referred to the halfling racial trait Lucky, not the feat. Halfling Lucky is basically same as the Khenras' trait except they don't need a twin within LoS. Thus, inferior compared to Halfling Lucky

They really should've either called the Feat or the Halfling trait something else - having two features named Lucky is just confusing.

[jaappleton]

He called it Plane Shift: Almondcat :smallamused:

I honestly don't get why Khopesh is a Longsword here. It should be a Scimitar, I think. Unless they didn't want them to be Light.

[DracoKnight]

He called it Plane Shift: Almondcat :smallamused:

I honestly don't get why Khopesh is a Longsword here. It should be a Scimitar, I think. Unless they didn't want them to be Light.

Looking at the purpose they served historically...I almost think they should be...Battleaxes?

[jaappleton]

I think you're right.

Also, DracoKnight here pointed something out to me. It worked on the Tempest, of course, and it'll work on Zeal. It may actually work BETTER on Zeal:

Booming Blade

You hit, enemies are knocked back 10'. You can actually combine it with Thunderous Smite for more hilarity.

EDIT:

DK also just pointed this out to me - High Elf (or Half Elf - High) takes Booming Blade, then Magic Initiate - Druid. Take Thunderclap and Shillelagh. Booming Blade keys off Wis for single target, and Thunderclap knocks everybody away from you for AoE.

Whoa.

[DracoKnight]

I think you're right.

Also, DracoKnight here pointed something out to me. It worked on the Tempest, of course, and it'll work on Zeal. It may actually work BETTER on Zeal:

Booming Blade

You hit, enemies are knocked back 10'. You can actually combine it with Thunderous Smite for more hilarity.

EDIT:

DK also just pointed this out to me - High Elf (or Half Elf - High) takes Booming Blade, then Magic Initiate - Druid. Take Thunderclap and Shillelagh. Booming Blade keys off Wis for single target, and Thunderclap knocks everybody away from you for AoE.

Whoa.

There's some pretty neat combos out there :smallbiggrin:

[jaappleton]

There's some pretty neat combos out there :smallbiggrin:

I was going to use Hand of Radiance for my AoE but why bother when I can auto-push?

[mgshamster]

Kaladesh (https://media.wizards.com/2017/downloads/magic/Plane-Shift_Kaladesh.pdf): This supplement barely goes into making "Shadowrun, but DnD, and not evil" setting. its really stupid and only goes like, a third of the way to doing it right. It outright bars most classes

Wow, you weren't kidding. Whoever wrote that completely shoe-horned in every class into one particular image, and seems to have little understanding of how classes work in 5e.

What popped out for me was claiming that paladins don't exist because there are no gods to give them their power - except paladins don't get their power from the gods! Or that monks don't exist because there are no monasteries (why not just view it as an unarmed fighter?). Or that if you want to be a barbarian, then you can *only* be a literal "barbarian from the hinterlands" style of character.

The way he writes reminds me of the early 3PP material for 5e; most of the writers were still stuck in a 3e mindset - you could tell they had missed the mark when it came to 5e design philosophy.

[Theodoxus]

DK also just pointed this out to me - High Elf (or Half Elf - High) takes Booming Blade, then Magic Initiate - Druid. Take Thunderclap and Shillelagh. Booming Blade keys off Wis for single target, and Thunderclap knocks everybody away from you for AoE.

Whoa.

Thunderclap doesn't cause movement, I think you mean Thunderwave. Also, BB specifically requires "willing movement", so forced movement like Thunderwave, wouldn't cause the spell to explode.

Few spells allow for forced 'willing' movement. Dissonant Whispers is one... but that's going to require either multiclassing into sorcerer (which would give you the BB cantrip) for Quickened, or pairing up with your party bard for a 1-2 punch... though it's arguably lackluster at best. I find BB better for crowd control than additional damage. I mean, if you get it to work, awesome (works particularly well (or at least it should) on mindless undead) - but counting on the extra damage is pretty meh.

[DracoKnight]

Thunderclap doesn't cause movement, I think you mean Thunderwave. Also, BB specifically requires "willing movement", so forced movement like Thunderwave, wouldn't cause the spell to explode.

Few spells allow for forced 'willing' movement. Dissonant Whispers is one... but that's going to require either multiclassing into sorcerer (which would give you the BB cantrip) for Quickened, or pairing up with your party bard for a 1-2 punch... though it's arguably lackluster at best. I find BB better for crowd control than additional damage. I mean, if you get it to work, awesome (works particularly well (or at least it should) on mindless undead) - but counting on the extra damage is pretty meh.

Zeal Domain gives 10' push when you deal Thunder damage -that's why thunderclap is so good on a Zeal Cleric.

[Theodoxus]

Ah, well, it's still forced movement, so it wouldn't make BB any better, and they're both actions...

Off topic, but are the Plane Shift articles AL legal?

[jaappleton]

Zeal Domain gives 10' push when you deal Thunder damage -that's why thunderclap is so good on a Zeal Cleric.

And Booming Blade knocks enemies away as well, meaning they take the second half of BBs damage to run back to you in an attempt to counterattack.

[DracoKnight]

Off topic, but are the Plane Shift articles AL legal?

Unfortunately, I don't believe so. They're setting books on par with Unearthed Arcana, as far as WotC is concerned for the legitimacy and official status of the mechanics.

[Theodoxus]

And Booming Blade knocks enemies away as well, meaning they take the second half of BBs damage to run back to you in an attempt to counterattack.

What spell are you reading?!?

[jaappleton]

Ah, well, it's still forced movement, so it wouldn't make BB any better, and they're both actions...

BB for single target which can nearly guarantee it'll proc the secondary damage, Thunderclap for when you're surrounded. Thunderclap is amazing here because it means you can use your action to deal damage, force enemy movement, and then move, all without provoking any opportunity attacks.

Don't undersell this. Zeal rules.

And that's not even counting the extra +1d8 damage you can add on to BB at lv8 and another +1d8 at lv14.

And you can maximize Fireball, too.

Plus they get the Haste spell, just as icing on the cake.

[jaappleton]

What spell are you reading?!?

YOU'RE DOING THUNDER DAMAGE.

Read Zeal's Lv6. Read BB, especially what it does at lv5.

Is it all clicking for you now?

[JackPhoenix]

Minotaur just seem like orcs with horns now.

The jackels seem to be a bit overpowered imo with fear immunity if their twin is dead or if they were born without one.

I want to make a mystic of both of these races though.

The minotaur is literally half-orc with natural weapon instead of darkvision.

Also, I'm no expert in MtG lore... but are those the first male-looking angels in the game?

[Theodoxus]

YOU'RE DOING THUNDER DAMAGE.

Read Zeal's Lv6. Read BB, especially what it does at lv5.

Is it all clicking for you now?

I had to write out an entire refutation to see what you're saying. When you BB someone, then use Resounding Strike, you're assuming they'll run back up to you, thus causing BB to explode.

Ok, I see the disconnect there. See, I did the same "trick" as a swashbuckler. Unfortunately, it never worked. Metaknowledge, on the DMs part, I think... If the enemy knows he's going to be hurt for moving back to you, he'll just stand there - or cast, use a bow, throw a dart, whatever... As I said, it works on mindless undead, or maybe a raging orc... but it never worked on most enemies...

[Zalabim]

Strength, Domain of the Arrogant: Cleric should NOT get destructive Wave as its bad enough that Lore bards can steal the spell, and the capstone seems a bit OP
Clerics already get Destructive Wave. It's a Tempest domain spell. The capstone is from the War domain. There's little that's absolutely new in Plane Shifts.

[Ralanr]

The minotaur is literally half-orc with natural weapon instead of darkvision.

Yeah I know. I'm disappointed by the lack of creativity and the choice of race to copy. Goliath would have made more sense.

[jaappleton]

I had to write out an entire refutation to see what you're saying. When you BB someone, then use Resounding Strike, you're assuming they'll run back up to you, thus causing BB to explode.

Ok, I see the disconnect there. See, I did the same "trick" as a swashbuckler. Unfortunately, it never worked. Metaknowledge, on the DMs part, I think... If the enemy knows he's going to be hurt for moving back to you, he'll just stand there - or cast, use a bow, throw a dart, whatever... As I said, it works on mindless undead, or maybe a raging orc... but it never worked on most enemies...

When my DM tries to meta, and I see enemies ahead (especially Humanoids), I lead off with "I take a moment to scan the enemies. What are their weapons?"

This also tell me who are mages, so I know who to kill first.

[Willie the Duck]

Minotaur just seem like orcs with horns now.
The jackels seem to be a bit overpowered imo with fear immunity if their twin is dead or if they were born without one.
I want to make a mystic of both of these races though.


I stopped reading at a race with flight, +2 dex, and a subrace that gives +2 wis, no penalty to long range shooting and perception training.
Nope, pass.


Yeah I know. I'm disappointed by the lack of creativity and the choice of race to copy. Goliath would have made more sense.

Everything in this is chock full of near-identical knock-offs of things we've seen before, yet still finding some really obvious abusive build potential like Aven rangers or certain zeal domain clerics. Perhaps with time, these potential abusive builds will show themselves to actually be rabbit holes, but I suspect that they're just quickly done and not playtested.

Mind you, I'm not mad. I'm aware that WotC spends more on promotional posters to give away for free at M:tG tournaments than it does on the entire D&D line. If they don't really spend the budget to balance their absolutely free MtG-D&D tie-in, well then so be it. Still, it would have been nice if there was more that I could mine from this.

[toapat]

Wow, you weren't kidding. Whoever wrote that completely shoe-horned in every class into one particular image, and seems to have little understanding of how classes work in 5e.

What popped out for me was claiming that paladins don't exist because there are no gods to give them their power - except paladins don't get their power from the gods! Or that monks don't exist because there are no monasteries (why not just view it as an unarmed fighter?). Or that if you want to be a barbarian, then you can *only* be a literal "barbarian from the hinterlands" style of character.

The way he writes reminds me of the early 3PP material for 5e; most of the writers were still stuck in a 3e mindset - you could tell they had missed the mark when it came to 5e design philosophy.

i feel James Wyatt decided to screw around and wrote the Kaladesh Article in a few days. the best part of the article is really JUST the Quicksmithing Feat (a strictly better version of ritual caster basically for artificer that makes arrtificer able to artifice)

i mean, look at Pyromancer Sorcerer in that document, Chandra Nalaar certainly has 9th level spellcasts but only during story climax events. the other 99% of the time shes a nerfed Sun Soul monk


Also, I'm no expert in MtG lore... but are those the first male-looking angels in the game?

theyre the first male angels that arent Serra Angels. i think theres a dude in Legends and in Timespiral.

these are the only ones that arent the results of a Perform (Sexual Acts) check. Most people dont get that theres 2 separate races of Angel in the DnDverse: Serra's Realm Serra angels which are fully biological and the other 99.8% who are just incarnations of white mana.

Almondcat angels should actually be Lawful Evil


He called it Plane Shift: Almondcat :smallamused:

the Reddit joke is easier to remember and i physically cannot pronounce the plane's name IRL which is absurd for someone who grew up reading Bionicle and can pronounce correctly basically Any rediculously voweled/consonant names

[GlenSmash!]

Wooeee! That Hawkman race is ripe for abuse. It's like aarakocra on bird steroids.

[Willie the Duck]

It's like aarakocra on bird steroids.

Is that what Big Bird and Sam the Eagle take?

[SharkForce]

the naga is pretty ridiculous too. constrict is crazy strong, and it doesn't require a free hand either. you can two-hand or sword and board all you want, which is the area where most grapple builds really miss out...

[GlenSmash!]

the naga is pretty ridiculous too. constrict is crazy strong, and it doesn't require a free hand either. you can two-hand or sword and board all you want, which is the area where most grapple builds really miss out...

Good point.

I feel like this Planeshift was big on flavor, maybe my favorite of the series, but low on balance. Still it's tweakable. Especially considering it's really some very nice looking homebrew.

[toapat]

Good point.

I feel like this Planeshift was big on flavor, maybe my favorite of the series, but low on balance. Still it's tweakable. Especially considering it's really some very nice looking homebrew.

ya, id say thats a good summary, Robustly flavorful, horribly balanced, and completely ignoring the fact that in a plane where a single demon has total control of the Command Economy and Angels theres going to be very little going on outside the plan.

[Theodoxus]

OTOH, if this particular setting was played as a distinct and separate plane (say, no players are Planeswalkers), it's internally balanced and fine. It's only when you consider using Naga in a LMoP campaign, or on the Sword Coast in general, that they become quite strong.

[GlenSmash!]

ya, id say thats a good summary, Robustly flavorful, horribly balanced, and completely ignoring the fact that in a plane where a single demon has total control of the Command Economy and Angels theres going to be very little going on outside the plan.

Yup. I'll probably never run a game in this setting, but it's got a lot of things I could mine for my setting.

[SharkForce]

OTOH, if this particular setting was played as a distinct and separate plane (say, no players are Planeswalkers), it's internally balanced and fine. It's only when you consider using Naga in a LMoP campaign, or on the Sword Coast in general, that they become quite strong.

how do you figure? they'll still have their crazy grapple ability.

[Theodoxus]

In the same way that a Jedi is internally balanced in a Star Wars game, yet would rule in a very broken manner, if translated to Forgotten Realms... do I really need to explain internal balance?

[SharkForce]

In the same way that a Jedi is internally balanced in a Star Wars game, yet would rule in a very broken manner, if translated to Forgotten Realms... do I really need to explain internal balance?

well, considering they still apparently use baseline humans and other races that aren't substantially more powerful than you would find in vanilla D&D, you *are* going to need to explain how giving one or two races extremely powerful stuff but not all the others maintains internal balance... i mean, if humans were variant humans plus a couple of extra goodies, and each of the races got equally powerful abilities, i could certainly understand how you might say the setting is simply balanced at a higher power level, but so long as only some races are getting these goodies and others aren't... you are going to need to explain what you think internal balance is, anyways...

[jaappleton]

In the same way that a Jedi is internally balanced in a Star Wars game, yet would rule in a very broken manner, if translated to Forgotten Realms... do I really need to explain internal balance?

I mean, I had to explain to you how Booming Blade synergizes with the Zeal Domain.

[Finback]

Sphinx: Ooh, new sphinx, Less awesome than the PHB ones. Also Less Timelord which is disappointing.


Weren't Criosphinxes always a bit weaker than the andro/gyno forms? iirc, the only one weaker than that were the hieracosphinxes, which were really just griffins with worse attitudes.

[Theodoxus]

well, considering they still apparently use baseline humans and other races that aren't substantially more powerful than you would find in vanilla D&D, you *are* going to need to explain how giving one or two races extremely powerful stuff but not all the others maintains internal balance... i mean, if humans were variant humans plus a couple of extra goodies, and each of the races got equally powerful abilities, i could certainly understand how you might say the setting is simply balanced at a higher power level, but so long as only some races are getting these goodies and others aren't... you are going to need to explain what you think internal balance is, anyways...

Ok, one more time, with feeling. If Naga are so OP, then one would expect the entire plane to be full of Naga, who have completely dominated every other race - either into submission, or extinction. Since that's not the case, there must be some internal balancing factor. Let's see, their grapple is 8+Prof+Str mod. Not Athletics, so rogue builds are useless, monk builds are equally useless... and they don't get a bonus to strength as a racial, so PB, they're stuck at a DC 12 at 1st level - amazing grappler there...

Now, for more controversial reasons: that's on top of a unique body shape that would require fancy (aka expensive) armors - at least, I'd rule it that way, so you're probably looking at Barbarian or Monk for a decent AC - something that's terribly important for a melee grappler, yet that +1 Int isn't doing anything for either of those classes.

Just because something looks amazing on paper doesn't mean it actually is.


I mean, I had to explain to you how Booming Blade synergizes with the Zeal Domain.

/facepalm. No, I had to rework your explanation into something that made sense... I always knew that BB synergized with Zeal due to the same energy type...

[Willie the Duck]

In general, I'm not super worried about the Naga. I can go either way on whether they are too powerful. But,


Ok, one more time, with feeling. If Naga are so OP, then one would expect the entire plane to be full of Naga, who have completely dominated every other race - either into submission, or extinction. Since that's not the case, there must be some internal balancing factor. Let's see, their grapple is 8+Prof+Str mod. Not Athletics, so rogue builds are useless, monk builds are equally useless... and they don't get a bonus to strength as a racial, so PB, they're stuck at a DC 12 at 1st level - amazing grappler there...

Well this a bunch of mixed arguments. But let's start from the top.
1) Naga can't be OP because the entire plane isn't full of Naga-- when people talk about things being OP vs. balanced, they are generally talking about player character choice selection balance. So the metric to judge is whether a character with a given trait dominates, not whether the story fiction says that said type is dominating. Fiction and rules can (and often have) conflicted.
2) Monk and rogue builds useless--Well, not useless, but yes they do not synergize. That means that if you want to make a grappler, you no longer have to dip into monk or rogue. The primary advantage of this racial trait isn't that it adds to the same old grappler builds, it is that it staples 'quite good grappler' onto any build that doesn't dump strength with very little investment.
3) This isn't OP because you're stuck with DC12 grapple at 1st level -- there's two things wrong with this. Firstly) the full measure of a build is not what it does at first level, and second) I do not have any survey-verified numbers to point to as to which style is dominant, but rolling for stats is still roughly as common as arrays and point buys (I don't know if it's 40-60 rolling or 40-60 not rolling, but it's not a 90-10 in one direction or the other). Thus you can have an 18 str at 1st level with a race that doesn't have a bonus. And that needs to be taken into account when discussing racial balance.

So I'm not saying you are wrong on whether naga are OP, but I don't feel that you've made the supremely powerful argument that your 'one more time, with feeling' comment and use of color indicates you seem to think you made.


Now, for more controversial reasons: that's on top of a unique body shape that would require fancy (aka expensive) armors - at least, I'd rule it that way, so you're probably looking at Barbarian or Monk for a decent AC - something that's terribly important for a melee grappler, yet that +1 Int isn't doing anything for either of those classes.

So the race is not-overpowered because of something that isn't in the ruleset at all, but a house rule you would add to it? That's not controversial, that's not-in-the-race-as-written. It is, however, what others here would probably do as well simply to tone down the power of what they see as an op race. But they would acknowledge that that is what they were doing.


Just because something looks amazing on paper doesn't mean it actually is.

This is true. You are right in this. And we shall see if any or all of the OP things we see in this end up being OP or as rabbit holes. It almost needs actual play for that to come out.


/facepalm. No, I had to rework your explanation into something that made sense... I always knew that BB synergized with Zeal due to the same energy type...

It made sense the whole time. As to you always knowing it, good for you, that was not communicated to anyone else reading along.

[toapat]

Yup. I'll probably never run a game in this setting, but it's got a lot of things I could mine for my setting.

i think, in some ways, the world has some good ideas going for it. but its also a very, very specific setting.

is this not the first setting where the modern "So wait, why, since controlled necromancer zombies can do simple menial tasks, doesnt a necromancer lord replace his peasant class with zombies so they can learn trad skills and sciences?" Razaketh (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=430762) literally controls all the mummies of Naktatum for this exact purpose, and it has almost exactly the predicted effect. nearly everyone has PC class levels.

the problem is that officially, there are no ways beyond the Hekma barrier, and there doesnt really seem to be anything we would consider a "Court of Law". Theres simply 3 Temple of Gains, Home of the Dogemother, and University.

there definitely is a court of law, since Temmet (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=426909) is basically the Chief Justice of the Supreme court, but his stories mostly involved doing a guided tour for Chandra + Harem + Jace, and then getting left comatose in an automated Mummy assembly line next to the Corpse intake.


Weren't Criosphinxes always a bit weaker than the andro/gyno forms? iirc, the only one weaker than that were the hieracosphinxes, which were really just griffins with worse attitudes.

yes, the MM Kittens are the traditional strongest incarnations, and according to Chris Perkens the stats on the Hieraco is not official. I would like to at least see them have some degree of time powers beyond the base

[GlenSmash!]

OTOH, if this particular setting was played as a distinct and separate plane (say, no players are Planeswalkers), it's internally balanced and fine. It's only when you consider using Naga in a LMoP campaign, or on the Sword Coast in general, that they become quite strong.

I'm not sure they are even internally balanced. The poor Minotaur seems to lag behind. the rest to me.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

is this not the first setting where the modern "So wait, why, since controlled necromancer zombies can do simple menial tasks, doesnt a necromancer lord replace his peasant class with zombies so they can learn trad skills and sciences?" Razaketh (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=430762) literally controls all the mummies of Naktatum for this exact purpose, and it has almost exactly the predicted effect. nearly everyone has PC class levels.

Actually, it's technically not the first time this idea has shown up in a D&D setting. The mini-setting of Jakandor, released under the Odyssey brand for AD&D in the 1990s, was set on an island where the native Charonti have for eons practiced a tradition of raising their dead as undead workers, religiously honoring their ancestors for this sacrifice that allows the living to focus on studying, learning and creating.

Of course, this same setting implies this makes the Charonti as evil as the vengeance-worshipping, bloodthirsty barbarian Knorr who've invaded the island and want to kill all the Charonti for being "embodiments of pure evil" by their belief system, so I wouldn't say it's a very well-written setting...

[SharkForce]

Ok, one more time, with feeling. If Naga are so OP, then one would expect the entire plane to be full of Naga, who have completely dominated every other race - either into submission, or extinction. Since that's not the case, there must be some internal balancing factor. Let's see, their grapple is 8+Prof+Str mod. Not Athletics, so rogue builds are useless, monk builds are equally useless... and they don't get a bonus to strength as a racial, so PB, they're stuck at a DC 12 at 1st level - amazing grappler there...

Now, for more controversial reasons: that's on top of a unique body shape that would require fancy (aka expensive) armors - at least, I'd rule it that way, so you're probably looking at Barbarian or Monk for a decent AC - something that's terribly important for a melee grappler, yet that +1 Int isn't doing anything for either of those classes.

Just because something looks amazing on paper doesn't mean it actually is.

it isn't a DC 12 grapple. it's a DC you-don't-get-to-save-against-it grapple + restrain that happens automaticaly on a hit, which is a DC 12 to escape and they have to spend an action to even make the attempt. also, the grapple does damage. not a ton of damage, but since the normal damage for a grapple is zero, that's a pretty significant boost. as an added benefit, it also works on any size of creature (though i personally dislike that a PC who's specialized in grapple to be completely useless against an enemy just because they're big, even though the character easily has the better grapple chance, so this particular part doesn't bother me, it *is* yet another way in which the constrict ability is very strong).

it is a very powerful ability.

(on a side note, monk synergizes just fine; yes, low strength means low DC to escape, but again, you spent a single unarmed strike - which monks can get 4 of very early on, and can scale the damage up and make it count as magical - to force an enemy to spend an entire action if it doesn't want to be subject to the penalty you just applied. who cares if they'll most likely succeed; you just traded a bit of damage - and maybe not even that - for an entire action. i'll make that trade any day of the week).

[toapat]

Of course, this same setting implies this makes the Charonti as evil as the vengeance-worshipping, bloodthirsty barbarian Knorr who've invaded the island and want to kill all the Charonti for being "embodiments of pure evil" by their belief system, so I wouldn't say it's a very well-written setting...

ok, so its the first time they dont judge people for living in a society that has figured out a practical solution to solving low tier societal needs with magic.

[JackPhoenix]

ok, so its the first time they dont judge people for living in a society that has figured out a practical solution to solving low tier societal needs with magic.

Difference is that Amonkhet isn't D&D setting, and creating undead there doesn't have the same the cosmological implications it does in D&D... so I wouldn't really count it as "first time".

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

Difference is that Amonkhet isn't D&D setting, and creating undead there doesn't have the same the cosmological implications it does in D&D... so I wouldn't really count it as "first time".

Well, technically speaking, the whole "creating undead is pure evil!" is actually a 3e invention. Back in AD&D/2e, creating undead was actually neutral ("Gray Necromancy"), according to the Complete Necromancer's Handbook. It was 3e that slapped Animate Dead and all its kin with the Evil keyword and played it up as blackest magic.

[toapat]

Difference is that Amonkhet isn't D&D setting, and creating undead there doesn't have the same the cosmological implications it does in D&D... so I wouldn't really count it as "first time".

necromancy in MTG is WAY more evil than in DnD where the power Cosmic hates you. in MTG necromancy is fueled by elemental ambition, and that power burns into the zombies actions. in DnD zombies shuffle about aimlessly and try to destroy life they encounter. in MTG DnD Zombies are semi-intelligent and actively hunt life by running at it at top speed. a peasant Levie is a 1/1 soldier while the zombie token made from its corpse is going to be a 2/2.

[JackPhoenix]

necromancy in MTG is WAY more evil than in DnD where the power Cosmic hates you. in MTG necromancy is fueled by elemental ambition, and that power burns into the zombies actions. in DnD zombies shuffle about aimlessly and try to destroy life they encounter. in MTG DnD Zombies are semi-intelligent and actively hunt life by running at it at top speed. a peasant Levie is a 1/1 soldier while the zombie token made from its corpse is going to be a 2/2.

Um.. what? You claim that necromancy is more evil in MtG, because their zombies are smarter (not that it's always true, Innistrad zombies are just as stupid and slow as D&D zombies)? And (in the current incarnation) of D&D, CR0, 4 hp commoner turns into CR 1/4, 22 hp zombie, so that doesn't mean anything either.

[toapat]

Um.. what? You claim that necromancy is more evil in MtG, because their zombies are smarter (not that it's always true, Innistrad zombies are just as stupid and slow as D&D zombies)? And (in the current incarnation) of D&D, CR0, 4 hp commoner turns into CR 1/4, 22 hp zombie, so that doesn't mean anything either.

the only reason why the zombies from Endless Ranks of the Dead are so stupid is because as is standard with most zombies, they have no real capacity to solve problems.

MTG damage is actually scientifically calculatable in terms of Damage to Joules, because of the cards Lightning Bolt (1B Joules), Blasphemous Act (a 20 KT nuclear weapon) and Meteor of Extinction (The Dinosaur Killer). we actually can calculate this damage into a quadratic function

[JackPhoenix]

the only reason why the zombies from Endless Ranks of the Dead are so stupid is because as is standard with most zombies, they have no real capacity to solve problems.

MTG damage is actually scientifically calculatable in terms of Damage to Joules, because of the cards Lightning Bolt (1B Joules), Blasphemous Act (a 20 KT nuclear weapon) and Meteor of Extinction (The Dinosaur Killer). we actually can calculate this damage into a quadratic function

I honestly have no idea what are you talking about and what are you trying to say. What does any of that have to do with the evil of necromancy?

[toapat]

I honestly have no idea what are you talking about and what are you trying to say. What does any of that have to do with the evil of necromancy?

Innistrad Zombies are not shambling incompetence, MTG zombies only look linearly comparable to commoners.

DnD zombies are powered by negative energy, MTG zombies are powered by the Yawning Abyss that seeks to consume all.

DnD zombies are measured in dice rolls, MTG zombies are able to be directly compared to the power of a small lightning bolt assuming you can find an equation able to compare lightning to the power of a nuclear bomb to the Dinokiller at those damage breakpoints

[solidork]

Innistrad Zombies are not shambling incompetence, MTG zombies only look linearly comparable to commoners.

DnD zombies are powered by negative energy, MTG zombies are powered by the Yawning Abyss that seeks to consume all.

DnD zombies are measured in dice rolls, MTG zombies are able to be directly compared to the power of a small lightning bolt

*reads collected works of Plato*

*fights and kills a grizzly, bare handed*

*dies*

[toapat]

*reads collected works of Plato*

*fights and kills a grizzly, bare handed*

*dies*

while i disagree that Innistrad zombies are that competent, i do wish i could upvote this.

[JackPhoenix]

Innistrad Zombies are not shambling incompetence, MTG zombies only look linearly comparable to commoners.

I'm really unable to translate what are you trying to say.


DnD zombies are powered by negative energy, MTG zombies are powered by the Yawning Abyss that seeks to consume all.

So? DnD negative energy doesn't have a consciousness, so it doesn't "seek" anything per se, but it still consumes the life force and destroys any material it contacts.


DnD zombies are measured in dice rolls, MTG zombies are able to be directly compared to the power of a small lightning bolt

Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. Just because zombie and lightning bolt cause the same "damage" in the game terms doesn't mean there's any direct comparison between them in "real world".

[toapat]

I'm really unable to translate what are you trying to say.



So? DnD negative energy doesn't have a consciousness, so it doesn't "seek" anything per se, but it still consumes the life force and destroys any material it contacts.



Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. Just because zombie and lightning bolt cause the same "damage" in the game terms doesn't mean there's any direct comparison between them in "real world".

Innistrad zombies are fast and strong, just not smart. For the endless ranks of the dead thats competent. Some of the really badly maimed ones are slow but then why are you using bad corpses

Negative energy is basically anitmatter. it seeks, destroys, and ceases. Black Mana is a Black Hole, it consumes and becomes larger as long as its not in a very sunny environment.

DnD Damage is arbitrary to game balance and not based on hard facts. MTG damage is arbitrary but can be calculated to have exact power equivalents

[Temperjoke]

So is a planeswalker basically someone, potentially not even a spellcaster, who can essentially use Plane Shift as an inherent power, albeit with less accuracy and only for themselves (not a group)?

[Ralanr]

Didn't 5e stop using positive and negative energy and focused more on radiant and necrotic?

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

Didn't 5e stop using positive and negative energy and focused more on radiant and necrotic?

5e tried to mash up the 4e and 3e cosmologies; they still use 4e's terminology of Radiant and Necrotic, but they originate from the Positive Energy Plane and the Negative Energy Plane, which are now the "north pole" and "south pole" of the Great Wheel and beyond the Outer Planes, rather than being part of the Inner Planes.

[Zardnaar]

So is a planeswalker basically someone, potentially not even a spellcaster, who can essentially use Plane Shift as an inherent power, albeit with less accuracy and only for themselves (not a group)?

They are generally spell casters in D&D terms. I suppose a few of them might have an innate ability to planeshift and are powered by elements or whatever.

[JackPhoenix]

Innistrad zombies are fast and strong, just not smart. For the endless ranks of the dead thats competent. Some of the really badly maimed ones are slow but then why are you using bad corpses

Not that the speed or intelligence (or lack of thereof) of zombies has anything to do with necromancy being evil (or not). I still don't know why are you talking about competence.


Negative energy is basically anitmatter. it seeks, destroys, and ceases. Black Mana is a Black Hole, it consumes and becomes larger as long as its not in a very sunny environment.

So basically the same thing, except one game specifically calls creating undead as evil (or rather, not good and only evil necromancers will do it frequently), other doesn't (and actually mentions black mana isn't evil in itself... note that negative energy also isn't evil on its own... from this perspective, they are the same thing)


DnD Damage is arbitrary to game balance and not based on hard facts. MTG damage is arbitrary but can be calculated to have exact power equivalents

Calculated how? MtG damage is also arbitrary to game balance and not based on hard facts (to use your words). ****** Riot's "show" in an orthodox church was certainly blasphemous act, and while it certainly caused some amount of butthurt and perhaps even psychological damage, it wasn't equivalent of nuclear weapon.

Besides, If I wanted to kill some catgirls, I could also do the math comparing the effects of DnD magic to real world equivalent... and I'm pretty sure the results would be much more precise than anything derived from MtG.


*Band name. Also female cat. It's not an attempt to circumvent the filter to use swear word.

[solidork]

Calculated how? MtG damage is also arbitrary to game balance and not based on hard facts (to use your words). ****** Riot's "show" in an orthodox church was certainly blasphemous act, and while it certainly caused some amount of butthurt and perhaps even psychological damage, it wasn't equivalent of nuclear weapon.

Besides, If I wanted to kill some catgirls, I could also do the math comparing the effects of DnD magic to real world equivalent... and I'm pretty sure the results would be much more precise than anything derived from MtG.


*Band name. Also female cat. It's not an attempt to circumvent the filter to use swear word.

I'm 90% sure that they're just pulling your leg. Like, it's sort of an inside joke in Magic that a lot of things just straight up don't make sense if you examine them too closely. There are hundreds of creatures that are depicted as being fully armed and armored that would get killed by a perfectly ordinary cat (http://magiccards.info/dka/en/19.html) without even killing the cat. A creature with no hands can pick up entire geographical regions and use them like weapons, without actually improving their combat ability. Thirteen squirrels (http://magiccards.info/extra/token/conspiracy/squirrel.html) can kill Cthulhu (http://magiccards.info/emn/en/6.html).

[toapat]

So is a planeswalker basically someone, potentially not even a spellcaster, who can essentially use Plane Shift as an inherent power, albeit with less accuracy and only for themselves (not a group)?

ya. the DMG in 5e even has a section talking about running a planeswalker campaign.

although IMO 5E is not a good system for building that kind of situation. Im not really sure theres going to be any point where a Planeswalker campaign is a good idea in DnD really


I'm 90% sure that they're just pulling your leg. Like, it's sort of an inside joke in Magic that a lot of things just straight up don't make sense if you examine them too closely. There are hundreds of creatures that are depicted as being fully armed and armored that would get killed by a perfectly ordinary cat (http://magiccards.info/dka/en/19.html) without even killing the cat. A creature with no hands can pick up entire geographical regions and use them like weapons, without actually improving their combat ability. Thirteen squirrels (http://magiccards.info/extra/token/conspiracy/squirrel.html) can kill Cthulhu (http://magiccards.info/emn/en/6.html).

Cats can kick ass.

The bowl of Cup noodles is the size of a mountain, has long noodles dripping from the sky that would lure squirrels to explore, and a single giant eye of weakness that is also a font of near infinite power, and because its of an Extradimensional monstrosity, it could fully well taste like acorns

[SharkForce]

The bowl of Cup noodles is the size of a mountain, has long noodles dripping from the sky that would lure squirrels to explore, and a single giant eye of weakness that is also a font of near infinite power, and because its of an Extradimensional monstrosity, it could fully well taste like acorns

also, based on squirrel girl's powers being those of squirrels, it stands to reason that not only does she have the powers that squirrels do, but squirrels have the powers that she does, and she *is* rumoured to be more powerful based on what she's fighting iirc :P

[Coidzor]

Serpopard's statblock is incomplete, saying that they have a claw attack in their Pounce text, but not actually giving them a claw attack. :smallconfused:

[ATHATH]

The Ambition domain seems pretty good for a 1 or 2 level Cleric dip, especially on a Rogue. Why yes, I most certainly WOULD like to force enemies to take disadvantage on their attack rolls WIS mod times per day (IIRC), and use my Channel Divinity ability to give me advantage on almost all attacks for a fight or two.

[Scathain]

I am absolutely in love with the Aven. Hawk is just good, stupid good even. Does anyone else really want to play an Ibis Wizard? What are the possible uses for Kefnet's Blessing other than skills, or is that the only appeal?

[Socratov]

I finally have the sense where a M:TG realm has added onto the game instead of refluffed it and/or tried to make one fit into the other.

And I love the flavour of Amonkhet.

[jaappleton]

The Ambition domain seems pretty good for a 1 or 2 level Cleric dip, especially on a Rogue. Why yes, I most certainly WOULD like to force enemies to take disadvantage on their attack rolls WIS mod times per day (IIRC), and use my Channel Divinity ability to give me advantage on almost all attacks for a fight or two.

Agreed! Warding Flare, originally held only by the Ligt Cleric, held the title for one of my favorite archetype abilities. However, Light's channel divinity was always terrible for a dip, since it's based purely on Cleric levels.

Ambition makes an excellent dip for Rogues, Rangers, Monks... Heck, even Foghters so they have Advantage for GWM / Sharpshooter.

[toapat]

I finally have the sense where a M:TG realm has added onto the game instead of refluffed it and/or tried to make one fit into the other.

And I love the flavour of Amonkhet.

I agree that this is the first one that doesnt feel utterly phoned in (IE: Zendikar and Innistrad) or Utterly trash from the PDF itself (Kaladesh).

unfortunately, as someone who at least follows the MTG story, its a "Good marketing, bad product" situation. This PDF is amazing and id love Almondcat if it was worth an attempt at a campaign. but the world is hard to envision how youre going to really make it work when a city of maybe 10M people are fanatical towards the government.

hell, we have no indication that the government itself abuses the decree of dissent. Sure they arent exactly just, being rather totalitarian in its sentencing, but for all intents and purposes, for the 60 years Bolas ruled the plane, the government was running a basically flawless communist democratic Meritocracy

[Theodoxus]

While I do enjoy Almondcat, it's pretty easy to pronounce... Ah. Mon. Ket. Think of it like a Jamaican curse... "ah, mon ket! you're killing me smalls!"

[toapat]

it's pretty easy to pronounce...

my username is Toa-pat, i grew up reading bionicle, I know how to pronounce complete violations of the latin alphabet. I cannot pronounce the Glottalstopped K in the plane's name

[Socratov]

I agree that this is the first one that doesnt feel utterly phoned in (IE: Zendikar and Innistrad) or Utterly trash from the PDF itself (Kaladesh).

unfortunately, as someone who at least follows the MTG story, its a "Good marketing, bad product" situation. This PDF is amazing and id love Almondcat if it was worth an attempt at a campaign. but the world is hard to envision how youre going to really make it work when a city of maybe 10M people are fanatical towards the government.

hell, we have no indication that the government itself abuses the decree of dissent. Sure they arent exactly just, being rather totalitarian in its sentencing, but for all intents and purposes, for the 60 years Bolas ruled the plane, the government was running a basically flawless communist democratic Meritocracy

True, unless WotC would actually make it into a DnD plane for real. However, I'd like to use the bits and pieces of it. I love the races which bring something actually new (and are good to use if you restrict the special abilities a bit to them 'blossoming' at 6th lvl or something staged). And I think that for a oneshot it could be a great mini-plane of some sorts...

[Temperjoke]

Well, these pieces are intended as accompaniment for the art books they're releasing, which have " insights about the people of Amonkhet, whose lives are a series of trials meant to prepare them for the great God-Pharaoh's return. "

Whether that means there is more information in those books, or we want more detail than they're really prepared to get into with these planes/worlds, I dunno.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, Amonkhet seems to have only three ways you can play it, all of them severely limited.

1. Going through the trials like a mix between an arena game and dungeoncrawler.

2. Dying horribly as a dissenter.

3. High level, Extraplanar dudes who are there to tear the place down or who ruin everything because it gets in their way while investigating some other ruins on the plane.


I do like the Zeal domain, though. I'm trying to decide if it's worthwhile in combination with Paladin, or any kind of MCing.

[toapat]

Whether that means there is more information in those books, or we want more detail than they're really prepared to get into with these planes/worlds, I dunno.

Everything critical is available online through the MTG site.


Yeah, Amonkhet seems to have only three ways you can play it, all of them severely limited.

1. Going through the trials like a mix between an arena game and dungeoncrawler.

2. Dying horribly as a dissenter.

3. High level, Extraplanar dudes who are there to tear the place down or who ruin everything because it gets in their way while investigating some other ruins on the plane.


I do like the Zeal domain, though. I'm trying to decide if it's worthwhile in combination with Paladin, or any kind of MCing.

to be fair, i do see the 5 trials taking 10+ weeks of campaign time because of the trial of Solidarity (Capture the Normandy) and the Trial of Ambition (BYO WoW Raid).

playing Tomb Raider seems off the table mostly since we dont have any "movements of the world" crap to go on beyond whats already there

i like that this UA isnt completely phoned it unlike previous but it does have some issues

[Finback]

Thirteen squirrels (http://magiccards.info/extra/token/conspiracy/squirrel.html) can kill Cthulhu (http://magiccards.info/emn/en/6.html).

It does help if one of them is this squirrel in particular. (http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/ULG/en/nonfoil/MightOfOaks.jpg) ;)

[JackPhoenix]

Thirteen squirrels (http://magiccards.info/extra/token/conspiracy/squirrel.html) can kill Cthulhu (http://magiccards.info/emn/en/6.html).

Can they? Emmy can fly... it's been... *checks calendar* 11 years since I've last played MtG, but unless they are enchanted squirrels, they can't touch him

[Saiga]

Emrakul doesn't have Flying, though.

edit: Bah, they print keywords at the bottom of the cards? Is that a newish thing?

[solidork]

Can they? Emmy can fly... it's been... *checks calendar* 11 years since I've last played MtG, but unless they are enchanted squirrels, they can't touch him

Obviously you just give the squirrels crossbows (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/55.html).

It's just semantics. If you manage to get them to fight one another then they both die. "Eldritch abomination, capable of consuming entire worlds, sweats nervously as she flies over a group of angry looking squirrels." is still amusing.


Emrakul doesn't have Flying, though.

edit: Bah, they print keywords at the bottom of the cards? Is that a newish thing?

She's got an ability that changes her cost and an ability that triggers when you cast her, so it's normal.

[toapat]

She's got an ability that changes her cost and an ability that triggers when you cast her, so it's normal.

you can also beat her to death with Acorns using Acorn Catapult and ways to clone and untap the catapult