What are the most broken prestige classes in any book 3.5 official source?

[Hackulator]

I'd have to say Chosen of Mystra might be the most OP one.

I'm not talking weird combos that allow for stupid loops. What single prestige class, on its own, is the most broken?

Unusually for one of my threads, I will be ignoring any in-game fluff requirements. If its mechanically possible, have at, with the exception of avoiding silly loopholes everyone knows about like using Divine Minion to technically wild shape as a level 11 druid. Remember if the class has weird requirements that make you take wasted levels, that may be a knock on how strong it is.

[Buufreak]

Risen Martyr.

Seriously though, Incantator/trix proves to be full of shenanigans, as does Dweomer Keeper, Initiate of the Seven Veils, Planar Shepard, just to name a few.

However, it is incredibly important to note that each of these are usually applied to T1 classes, which are, standing alone as a 1-20 base class only build, can already break a rule book over their knees with minimal effort.

[Vizzerdrix]

Broken powerful, or broken disfunctional?


Incanatrix for the first, Lantan Artificer for the second.

[ATHATH]

Broken powerful, or broken disfunctional?


Incanatrix for the first, Lantan Artificer for the second.
Could you explain the latter?

Also, I nominate Void Disciple (or whatever it was called; it's the one with the vague divination-ish ability).

[Graysire]

While I know it isn't really answering the question, in unofficial sources the most broken would be a gem of hilarity I found called the Dread Necrolord on dnd wiki, go ahead, look it up

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord and Rainbow Servant are notable in that they can push previously unbroken classes (that is, those T3 or below) into brokenness (by raising them to T2 or T1).

Void Disciple is reportedly extremely broken by certain interpretations, though I don't quite understand how.

[Vizzerdrix]

Could you explain the latter?

Firstly, it is a prc fluffed around making machines that emulate casting, but requires you to be a caster to start. Standard tom foolery for faerun. The real hitch is the weight of the devices it gets for free. You get a new toy each level and they are 50 lbs ish each. Good luck porting that around, let alone keeping them ready for when you need something. Otherwise, neat class.


From magic of faerun

[Hackulator]

Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord and Rainbow Servant are notable in that they can push previously unbroken classes (that is, those T3 or below) into brokenness (by raising them to T2 or T1).

Void Disciple is reportedly extremely broken by certain interpretations, though I don't quite understand how.

Certain Void Disciple abilities allow insane chicanery, like the one where you can use any one ability score mod instead of another.

[Forrestfire]

Illithid Savant, when used as intended (eating people to take their class features), is completely and utterly overpowered.

I'd say moreso than Incantatrix or any similar class.

[Soranar]

Due to the sheer size of his spell list ( and eventually being capable of castng any arcane or divine spell) a chameleon can get pretty broken.

Even without level 7,8 and 9 spells you get

arcane and divine casting simultaneously by level 7 of the class
caster level 20 by level 15

if you complete the build with spellthief + abjurant champion you can end up with an arcane caster level of 40 by using master spellthief

a thrallherd is just insane with the right minions

[ColorBlindNinja]

Tainted Scholar is pretty bad, as your taint score powers your spells per day. Even without being undead, you can pump your taint pretty high.

Hulking Hurler can deal obscene amounts of damage, even without being too optimized.

Finally, the Red Wizard (as well as Hathran Witch) are broken because of Circle Magic.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Legacy champion can be quite abusable, as you can potentially extend a large number of PrCs past their natural cutoff points. Applying the +1 effective class level to, say, war weaver allows you to spread 9th level spells amongst the whole party -- or even 10th levels and beyond.

[The Viscount]

Thrallherd is broken because it works like leadership and leadership is broken, but also because it removes one of leaderships few limitations: there's no penalty for losing thralls and believers. They all come back in 24 hours. Entry is very simple, especially with hidden talent or kalashtar.

[Telonius]

Beholder Mage (with shenanigans to enter it as a non-Beholder) has to rank up there. But for sheer, wtf-were-they-thinking, "Do not let a player take this"-ness, it's hard to beat a Tainted Scholar. Especially combined with Necropolitan or other undead, your spells quickly go from "Save: X Negates" to "Save: Pray you roll a 20."

[JNAProductions]

While I know it isn't really answering the question, in unofficial sources the most broken would be a gem of hilarity I found called the Dread Necrolord on dnd wiki, go ahead, look it up

I looked it up (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dread_Necrolord_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)).

It seems... I mean, pretty powerful, but not THAT broken.

[Graysire]

I looked it up (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dread_Necrolord_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)).

It seems... I mean, pretty powerful, but not THAT broken.

Well....My group is really low OP by this forum's standards, but going around slaughtering Commoners to get NI ability scores, all the times where things advance by character level not class level, and the subsequent ridiculous scaling...

[Lord Vermilionn]

Divine Sorcerer ACF + Dweomerkeeper + Evil Weather = GG

[Endarire]

I'm hesitant to call anything in 3.5 'broken' that isn't a loop.

But, if you mean 'powerful' or 'not powerful,' the Tier System for PrCs did this in 2009 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?107618-3e-Zeal-s-(in-progress)-Tier-System-for-PrCs)!

[Melcar]

I'd have to say Chosen of Mystra might be the most OP one.

The Chosen of Mystra is not a PrC, but a template!

[Hackulator]

There is a PrC in one of the Forgotten Realms book, though it might be 3.0

[Goaty14]

Need a list in the OP, so I can easily refer to this cheese wall.

Hulking Hurler on its own isn't OP, but the Str-Buffing War Hulk makes it broken.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Hulking Hurler on its own isn't OP, but the Str-Buffing War Hulk makes it broken.

Really? I've heard you can deal insane damage without a lot of optimization.

[Crake]

Certain Void Disciple abilities allow insane chicanery, like the one where you can use any one ability score mod instead of another.

Three times per day, for 5-6 rounds, at the expense of 4 caster levels lost by the time that ability comes online, limiting what would normally be 16th level casting (8th level spells) to 12th level casting (6th level spells). Really not that big a deal. At least not on it's own. Maybe, MAYBE when paired with something else, but even then, maxing out casting is much more broken, it's literally the difference between getting 9th level spells next level, and never getting 9th level spells


Due to the sheer size of his spell list ( and eventually being capable of castng any arcane or divine spell) a chameleon can get pretty broken.

Even without level 7,8 and 9 spells you get

arcane and divine casting simultaneously by level 7 of the class
caster level 20 by level 15

It gets even more hilariously broken when you do leapfrog shenannigans with your floating bonus feat and get dual 9 casting at level 12 with access to quite literally every single spell in the game. Can prepare any divine spell, and with at least 1 day's notice can get any arcane spell they wish in their spellbook via extra spell known feat, extra credit if one of your levels before chameleon was eidetic wizard so your spellbook is in your head and can't be stolen, meaning any spell you learn you forever have access to prepare again.

[Goaty14]

Really? I've heard you can deal insane damage without a lot of optimization.

The hulking hurler is a 3 level class that really just stacks 1 bonus feat to throw any improvised weapon, and then two weapon throwing tricks; War hulk gives you a Str boost +20

This damage you're talking about is the ability to throw anything equal to a medium load on the character; after buffing strength so much, a medium load is a LOT. I have not seen where it is cited, but somebody pointed out that improvised weapons deal 1d6 per pound im Complete Warrior (Complete Warrior DOES have a improvised weapons table, but it doesn't mention anything like 1d6 per __ pounds or anything of the sort)
For every 200 pounds past 400 for an improvised weapon, you deal an extra 1d6 damage with no limit (base 4d6), given this, you only have to throw a object weighing 1600 pounds to deal 10d6 damage, or have a Strength score of 33, which becomes less than a lot if you are a quadruped (Centaur-x3) and being large is a prerequisite (x2), making the ability to deal 10d6 require a strength score of 21 6 (I made an error here because I applied math to the Str score, not the carry capacity)

EDIT: I made a few math errors; 1600 deals 10d6, not 11

The only hinderance to this build is that, although you can throw massive items for massive damage, you have a limited range, and items THAT heavy don't show up out of thin air.


A centaur as a character gets a +8 to strength, a common Centaur has a base str 11, so our example has a strength 19, making out medium carry cap 233 pounds, and if we multiply that by 6 (x3 Quad x2 Large), then our carry cap is 1398, which means we can ALMOST deal 10d6 in a throw; with our 3 levels of hulking hurler only, now if we add +20 Str with the war hulk; then our Str is now 39, and our medium carry capacity is 3732, so our damage is (3700 - 400)/200 20d6

That is without any optimization

[ColorBlindNinja]

The hulking hurler is a 3 level class that really just stacks 1 bonus feat to throw any improvised weapon, and then two weapon throwing tricks; War hulk gives you a Str boost +20

War Hulk is insane for martial characters, there's no doubt about that.


This damage you're talking about is the ability to throw anything equal to a medium load on the character; after buffing strength so much, a medium load is a LOT. I have not seen where it is cited, but somebody pointed out that improvised weapons deal 1d6 per pound im Complete Warrior (Complete Warrior DOES have a improvised weapons table, but it doesn't mention anything like 1d6 per __ pounds or anything of the sort)
For every 200 pounds past 400 for an improvised weapon, you deal an extra 1d6 damage with no limit (base 4d6), given this, you only have to throw a object weighing 1600 pounds to deal 11d6 damage, or have a Strength score of 33, which becomes less than a lot if you are a quadruped (Centaur-x3) and being large is a prerequisite (x2), making the ability to deal 11d6 require a strength score of 6 (technically a little over)

You add your STR mod to thrown weapons too, so it's dealing even more than 11d6.
Edit: Starting with a 20 in STR can net you a total of 36 (+13) by level 20 if you buy the right gear.
2nd Edit: If you took War Hulk, that's 56 (+23).


The only hinderance to this build is that, although you can throw massive items for massive damage, you have a limited range, and items THAT heavy don't show up out of thin air.

True, but with spells like Minor/Major Creation and Shrink Item, that shouldn't be that big of a deal.

[Gruftzwerg]

I also vote for Void Disciple, due to BoBaFeat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503665-quot-TO-BoBaFeat-quot-Body-outside-Body-amp-Moment-of-Clarity).
Void Disciples lvl 4 ability, "Moment of Clarity", combined with "Body outside Body" (Wu Jen) breaks the game. As soon as you get your 9th lvl spells, you can hit pun-pun lvl of power in a blink of an eye (short buff time compared to regular pun-pun powering up).

- infinite bodies (clones)
- have infinite stats/Hp/AC/Saves..
- have infinite ranks in all skills
- have all spells you know as SLA (incl. Whish and with the Bodies you have unlimited Whishes/turn)
- have all talents (Except ancestor feats)
- only you can make use of unlimited Multispells/turn (cause Bodies can only use SLA and that can't be combined with multispell)
...
..

[Hackulator]

I also vote for Void Disciple, due to BoBaFeat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503665-quot-TO-BoBaFeat-quot-Body-outside-Body-amp-Moment-of-Clarity).
Void Disciples lvl 4 ability, "Moment of Clarity", combined with "Body outside Body" (Wu Jen) breaks the game. As soon as you get your 9th lvl spells, you can hit pun-pun lvl of power in a blink of an eye (short buff time compared to regular pun-pun powering up).

- infinite bodies (clones)
- have infinite stats/Hp/AC/Saves..
- have infinite ranks in all skills
- have all spells you know as SLA (incl. Whish and with the Bodies you have unlimited Whishes/turn)
- have all talents (Except ancestor feats)
- only you can make use of unlimited Multispells/turn (cause Bodies can only use SLA and that can't be combined with multispell)
...
..

This definitely falls inside the "weird combos" exception I think.

[AOKost]

Well....My group is really low OP by this forum's standards, but going around slaughtering Commoners to get NI ability scores, all the times where things advance by character level not class level, and the subsequent ridiculous scaling...

If I read the ability right... You could actually farm-raise mice or even roaches to gain the benefits of the ability. It doesn't state that it's limited to any HD minimum you have to kill to absorb their soul or to expend it...

[ColorBlindNinja]

If I read the ability right... You could actually farm-raise mice or even roaches to gain the benefits of the ability. It doesn't state that it's limited to any HD minimum you have to kill to absorb their soul or to expend it...

I've heard people suggest beehives for that sort of thing.

[Graysire]

So we end up with someone who has full casting, 180ft Speed, A free weapon with high enhancement bonus that can take the shape of any weapons needed without changing damage, some pretty good armor, both these weapons and armor increase in power regardless of Dread Necrolord level, we've got saome spell-like abilities that are basically at will, because Burning Hands a beehive for +8000 to a stat

[Quertus]

Illithid Savant. Tainted Sorcerer. Thrall Herd. For added fun, have your Illithid Savant eat the brain of a Thrall Herder, and take a single level of Tainted Sorcerer. Sacrifice your entire herd daily for fun and profit, and, if any pesky adventurers complain about how you're depopulating the neighboring kingdoms, engage then in polite conversation, and ask them how they feel about save DCs in the 60s (or higher, with a little optimization).

[zergling.exe]

So we end up with someone who has full casting, 180ft Speed, A free weapon with high enhancement bonus that can take the shape of any weapons needed without changing damage, some pretty good armor, both these weapons and armor increase in power regardless of Dread Necrolord level, we've got saome spell-like abilities that are basically at will, because Burning Hands a beehive for +8000 to a stat

But a swarm of bees is only one creature.

[Mike Miller]

But a swarm of bees is only one creature.

It is one "creature" for combat purposes but many living things. When you defeat a swarm, it means you killed enough of the individual entities to disperse the group.

[Jormengand]

Out of the box, without having to do anything to break it, I think the Slayer is a strong contender - the prerequisites are easy for a straight-up psion to meet, and in return for a manifester level you get full base attack bonus and immunity to all divination, clairsentience, telepathy, enchantment and probably illusion effects and a lot of necromancy effects - you get a few other class features which are okay but not amazing by comparison.

[Buufreak]

Out of the box, without having to do anything to break it, I think the Slayer is a strong contender - the prerequisites are easy for a straight-up psion to meet, and in return for a manifester level you get full base attack bonus and immunity to all divination, clairsentience, telepathy, enchantment and probably illusion effects and a lot of necromancy effects - you get a few other class features which are okay but not amazing by comparison.

... Where is this class found?

[Jormengand]

... Where is this class found?

The Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) on the SRD. I think it might be called the Illithid Slayer in the actual XPH.

Oh, you also get free MWP and armour proficiency, which is nice if you're psionic and aren't subject to spell failure. I only just noticed this.

[Buufreak]

The Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) on the SRD. I think it might be called the Illithid Slayer in the actual XPH.

Oh, you also get free MWP and armour proficiency, which is nice if you're psionic and aren't subject to spell failure. I only just noticed this.

Gotcha. Yup, Illithid slayer, probably one of those fun © deals that a splattered across WotC and all products within.

[Jormengand]

Gotcha. Yup, Illithid slayer, probably one of those fun © deals that a splattered across WotC and all products within.

My favourite is actually the Pathfinder spell, Echean's Excellent Enclosure, or mage's excellent enclosure, or mage's magnificent enclosure... even the URL and the title are different on the SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mage-s-excellent-enclosure/). At least Mage's Magnificent Mansion still alliterated!

[AvatarVecna]

The hulking hurler is a 3 level class that really just stacks 1 bonus feat to throw any improvised weapon, and then two weapon throwing tricks; War hulk gives you a Str boost +20

This damage you're talking about is the ability to throw anything equal to a medium load on the character; after buffing strength so much, a medium load is a LOT. I have not seen where it is cited, but somebody pointed out that improvised weapons deal 1d6 per pound im Complete Warrior (Complete Warrior DOES have a improvised weapons table, but it doesn't mention anything like 1d6 per __ pounds or anything of the sort)
For every 200 pounds past 400 for an improvised weapon, you deal an extra 1d6 damage with no limit (base 4d6), given this, you only have to throw a object weighing 1600 pounds to deal 10d6 damage, or have a Strength score of 33, which becomes less than a lot if you are a quadruped (Centaur-x3) and being large is a prerequisite (x2), making the ability to deal 10d6 require a strength score of 21 6 (I made an error here because I applied math to the Str score, not the carry capacity)

EDIT: I made a few math errors; 1600 deals 10d6, not 11

The only hinderance to this build is that, although you can throw massive items for massive damage, you have a limited range, and items THAT heavy don't show up out of thin air.


A centaur as a character gets a +8 to strength, a common Centaur has a base str 11, so our example has a strength 19, making out medium carry cap 233 pounds, and if we multiply that by 6 (x3 Quad x2 Large), then our carry cap is 1398, which means we can ALMOST deal 10d6 in a throw; with our 3 levels of hulking hurler only, now if we add +20 Str with the war hulk; then our Str is now 39, and our medium carry capacity is 3732, so our damage is (3700 - 400)/200 20d6

That is without any optimization


You are misunderstanding the Carrying Capacity rules for Quadrupeds. The multiplier for Quadrupeds By Size is not an additional multiplier on top of the size multiplier (in other words, being a Large Quadruped does not get you the x3 and the x2). Rather, Quadruped essentially multiplies your CC by 1.5 on top of your Str mod (taking Large from 2 to 3, Huge from 4 to 6, Gargantuan from 8 to 12, and Colossal from 16 to 24). To quote:


Bigger and Smaller Creatures
The figures on Table: Carrying Capacity are for Medium bipedal creatures. A larger bipedal creature can carry more weight depending on its size category, as follows: Large ×2, Huge ×4, Gargantuan ×8, Colossal ×16. A smaller creature can carry less weight depending on its size category, as follows: Small ×¾, Tiny ×½, Diminutive ×¼, Fine ×1/8.

Quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than characters can. Instead of the multipliers given above, multiply the value corresponding to the creature’s Strength score from Table: Carrying Capacity by the appropriate modifier, as follows: Fine ×¼, Diminutive ×½, Tiny ×¾, Small ×1, Medium ×1½, Large ×3, Huge ×6, Gargantuan ×12, Colossal ×24.

Bolded for emphasis.

As I said in the Hulking Hurler thread, Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre Goliath has the same LA, 4 less RHD, and a higher carrying capacity overall than a Half-Ogre Centaur. Of course, if you really want to get that extra x1.5 from being a Quadruped, rather than pay 4 RHD for it, just pick up the Hauling Back graft for 2000 gp.

Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre Goliath. Barbarian 5/Hulking Hurler 2, total ECL 9. Take the Natural Heavyweight and Reckless Rage feats. Snag a Belt Of The Wide Earth (8000), the Hauling Back Graft (2000 gp), and a +1 Sizing Returning Adamantine Boulder/Spiky Ball (16000 gp; sizing lets you put it on any boulder/spiky ball you want, so finding a decent boulder shouldn't cost you money). Totals up to 26000 gp, plenty affordable with your WBL 36000.

Str 38 (44 while raging) with x3 (Large Quadruped), x2 (Natural Heavyweight), and x2 (Belt Of The Wide Earth). Your medium load is 38400 lbs, or 89600 lbs while raging. According to the CW rules, a 400 lb object deals 5d6 damage, and every additional 200 lbs deals an additional 1d6 (and sharp objects deal damage as an object of twice their weight). While not raging, you have +22 to hit and either 195d6+22 (Boulder, avg DPR 704.5) or 387d6+22 (Spiky Ball, avg DPR 1376.5) for damage. While raging, this becomes +25 to hit and either 451d6+26 (Boulder, avg DPR 1604.5) or 899d6+26 (Spiky Ball, avg DPR 3172.5).

TL;DR

Putting War Hulk on a Hulking Hurler makes for broken levels of damage, but that's true of any source of lots of Str; War Hulk without Hulking Hurler isn't all that broken, while Hulking Hurler can be plenty broken without War Hulk's help. Honestly, the most broken Hulking Hurler I ever made that wasn't abusing an infinite Str loop like Festering Rage or a continuous item of Consumptive Field didn't have any War Hulk levels, but rather had levels in a whole slew of classes that weren't War Hulk. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18472541&postcount=67)

[The Viscount]

Out of the box, without having to do anything to break it, I think the Slayer is a strong contender - the prerequisites are easy for a straight-up psion to meet, and in return for a manifester level you get full base attack bonus and immunity to all divination, clairsentience, telepathy, enchantment and probably illusion effects and a lot of necromancy effects - you get a few other class features which are okay but not amazing by comparison.

Could you explain how it has immunity to illusion and necromancy effects?

[Jormengand]

Could you explain how it has immunity to illusion and necromancy effects?

Only some necromancies, which are mind-affecting (some abjurations, conjurations and evocations might be too, I suppose). In the case of illusion, it's a bit iffy. Some illusions are just straight-up mind-affecting too, such as all patterns and phantasms. Others can reasonably be filed under "devices, powers, and spells that influence the mind" even if they aren't tagged as mind-affecting directly.

[Anthrowhale]

Here's my list.

NPC only: Clearly unplayable as a character since no DM can challenge.
Illithid Savant 5: All features are class features.
Planar Shepherd 5: Emulate flowing time plane for 10-to-1 action advantage.
Beholder Mage 9: Nova 10 spontaneous spells/round as a free action.

Extraordinarily powerful: Tier 0ish. Extremely difficult for DM to challenge if played well. Inappropriate for most campaigns.
Halruaan Elder 5: Circle Magic: Caster level >= 40, Spell save DC 40+ or higher
Red Wizard 5: Circle Magic
Hathran 1&5: Spontaneously cast all spells on your list & Circle Magic
Tainted Scholar 1: Spell save DC 50+ or higher via Taint-based casting.
Incantatrix 3: Metamagic for free
Spelldancer 1: Metamagic for free
Rainbow Servant 10: Add all cleric spells to your spell list & spontaneously cast for full-list spontaneous casters.

High magic PCs: Definitely beyond the norm, capable of overcoming encounters in otherwise unallowed ways with no significant drawbacks.
Anima Mage: Early entry binding+casting & 3 free metamagics.
Iot7FV 7: Mobile personal prismatic sphere
Ur-Priest 9: Access to 9th level spells at ECL 14.
Dweomerkeeper 4: Spell is a supernatural effect, Mantle[Arcane Fusion] on a nonsorcerer.
Shadowcraft Mage 3: Spontaneous access to 1.5 schools of magic
Spellguard 4: Personal spells as touch and Selective spell.

[molten_dragon]

Thrallherd is broken because it works like leadership and leadership is broken, but also because it removes one of leaderships few limitations: there's no penalty for losing thralls and believers. They all come back in 24 hours. Entry is very simple, especially with hidden talent or kalashtar.

Yeah, thrallherd was going to be my top broken prestige class. And don't forget it gets you two cohorts instead of one, and one of them is more powerful than a normal cohort (level - 1 instead of level - 2)