Lets give a meaning to intelligence scores now

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Its a slow day.

Score /Intelligence

0 Comatose

1 Lives by the most basic instincts, no logic or reason.

2-3 Normal animal level intelligence, acts on instinct but can be trained

4-5 Can speak. Acts when expressing thoughts, reacts instinctively. Probably needs help functioning in society.

6-7 Obviously slow. Poor grammar and math skills. Did that really smart dolphin just beat that 6 at tic tac toe?

8-9 Below average but in the realm of normal, not a fool by any means. They'll figure it out if they want or need to.

10-11 Average human, probably competent in most things they have been exposed to and above average in some.

12-13 Above average, learns easily, can study logic. May be an expert in some fields.

14-15 Obviously quick witted

16-17 A great memory. Solves problems easily most people struggle with.

18-19 Genius, may have trouble relating to average people.

20-21 Smartest person ever.

22-23 This is the alien who designed the propulsion system on the UFO you saw.

24-25 God like intellect.

[Coffee_Dragon]

<10 Seems less smart than Bob. Not the best at elven crossword puzzles

10 Pretty much just like Bob

>10 Seems more smart than Bob. Not the worst at elven crossword puzzles

[NecroDancer]

This seems about right, although I wish we had a table that gave us examples of creatures for each level of a statistic for reference. For 5e it would probably look something like this

1: Fungus

2-3: Wolf

4-5: Baboon

6-7: Flesh Golem

8-9: Orc

10-11: Average Person

12-13: Red Dragon Wyrmling

14-15: Succubus/Incubus

16-17: Average Mage

18-19: Mind Flayer

20-21: Archmage

On an unrelated note it is now possible to play a character with 1 intelligence.

[Millstone85]

I may be weird but I like the idea of a character with 10 Int and proficiency in a couple Int-based skills.

Like, Father Aeric is more known for his acumen than as a source of trivia, but he did study and commit to memory the history of men and the holy texts.

[Naanomi]

We recently had a thread comparing IQ to INT. Not the best measure to be sure, but it was something... here was my reply there:


If you want to assume that the 3d6 roll mapped well to the standard distribution assumed by the Stanford-Binet (which I wouldn't but it is the only way to make this conversation meaningful) the map is as follows:

INT = IQ
3 - 57
4 - 66 <- Diagnostically eligible for a 'mental retardation' diagnosis under the DSM IV-TR
5 - 72
6 - 78
7 - 83 <- Statistically identifiable as 'below average'
8 - 88
9 - 93
10 - 98
11 - 102
12 - 107
13 - 112
14 - 117 <- Statistically identifiable as 'above average'
15 - 122
16 - 128
17 - 134
18 - 143 <- Meets Mensa requirement for 'genius'

If I attempt to 'extrapolate the curve' on a simple statistical model (bad math in the behavioral sciences but I can do it on paper for dubious results) I find...

1 - 16 <- virtually no cognitive engagement, below 20 and learning is generally considered impossible due to massive deficits in processing and memory
2 - 42 <- the estimated 'IQ' of most 'smart' animals (apes, dolphins, crows)... still minimal language impairment present
19 - 158 <- about Einstein levels
20 - 184 <- just beyond measuring in the normal battery of IQ tests

The scale gets even more wonky beyond 20... 21 putting me in the 230 IQs somewhere, beyond what is even estimated for human capability (which makes sense I guess)

[No brains]

I'm also going to quote something from the IQ thread. I feel like JackPhoenix makes interesting points about 'intelligence'.


On the matter of meaning of Intelligence in D&D, I'd like to quote myself from a different thread where unrelated, but similar matter was discused:


Polymorph definitely messes up with your memories, and Int apparently doesn't mean what we think it means.

Meet Winston. Winston is a Giant Ape who was Awakened. He had to be Feebleminded first, because Giant Ape doesn't fulfill the requirements of Awaken (Int 3 or less, which suggest apes propably either shouldn't have Int 7, or they shouldn't be beasts). He got Int 10 and one of languages of the "awakener" (more on that guy later). Winston had a nice GM who allowed him to be played as a PC. Winston choose barbarian (because he wants to get bonuses when he gets mad at people for calling him monkey) and multiclassed to wizard (because he's not a monkey, he's a scientist!) (The GM was also nice to waive multiclass requirements). Much later, when Winston had 9 levels of wizard, Xzibit the bard walked by, saying "Yo dawg, I heard you like Giant Apes, so why don't you Polymorph to Giant Ape, so you can ape while you ape?" After beating the bard to death for that horrible sentence and overused meme, Winston thought it's not a bad idea... he's already Giant Ape, he would get twice the HP by using Polymorph! So he turns himself into a double-ape. Suddenly, his Intelligence is back at 7, he's unable to speak or understand any language, he doesn't know how to use sword, he can't get so angry he gets combat bonuses anymore, his double-ape form is less durable (both less HP for the lack of class levels, and no Con to AC), he can't cast spells anymore (even though Wizard magic is based on knowledge, not innate ability) and lost his knowledge of Arcana, History and Nature, as well as any other skill or tool proficiencies. So beyond physical changes from his tough, trained Giant Ape body to standard model Giant Ape body, he definitely lost access to learned skills, way beyond what decreasing Int would explain, so his memory was most certainly messed with.

On the other hand, there's the Wizard who Awakened Winston in the first place (casting Awaken through Wish, as wizard doesn't have it on its list). His name is Hodor and he is an orc. His GM had him rolling stats in order, and Hodor's player was unlucky enough to end up with 3 in Int, yet he still insists on playing an Orc Wizard. With orc's racial penalty to Int, he ended up with Int 1, which is less than literally mindless zombies. Despite that, he understands and speaks 4 languages (from race and background), is quite proficient with few weapons wizards can use, and of course, can cast wizard's Intelligence and knowledge-based spells, even if he's having a terrible time trying to hit or affect enemies with them. But that's why he uses mostly buffs and other spells without saving throws. He's also proficient in Arcana, History and Nature, but until fairly high level, his skill modifier is negative. When he turns into a Giant Ape to be similar to his new friend Winston, his Intelligence skyrockets compared to its former value, but he loses access to all of those proficiencies and skills mentioned above, while gaining proficiency in Athletics and Perception (though as both are physical skills, that could be ascribed to the fact that giant ape body is better suited for their use). It's hard to claim that his memory wasn't messed with, as he actually got smarter higher Int score as an ape, yet lost access to his previous knowledge (such as it was).

So yes, Int 7 giant ape is still a mere animal, and an Int 1 orc can be (horrible, but RAW viable) wizard. And even though common ogres have lower Int than giant apes (5), unlike apes, they possess a language (two of them, in fact), can craft and use weapons and tools and generally show signs of higher intellect than apes. Apparently, all Int means is how high is your Int save and ability modifier to intelligence ability checks, not how smart or stupid the actual creature is.

I think it's going to take a lot of data gathering from monster manuals to see what intelligence does for a creature and how other stats may play a role in their behaviors.

[NecessaryWeevil]

This sort of chart always worries me because sooner or later someone will try to use it to police PC behaviour ("no, your PC is too dumb to come up with that plan").

[SaurOps]

This sort of chart always worries me because sooner or later someone will try to use it to police PC behaviour ("no, your PC is too dumb to come up with that plan").

I share that concern. Also, it doesn't usually seem like the people slicing the pie know where to do it with real life animals. Placing them lower than ogres and hill giants is a travesty.

[Naanomi]

This sort of chart always worries me because sooner or later someone will try to use it to police PC behaviour ("no, your PC is too dumb to come up with that plan").
Yes, although note in the IQ equivalence we shouldn't be justifying Hulk-speech until INT 2 at the earliest

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Yes, although note in the IQ equivalence we shouldn't be justifying Hulk-speech until INT 2 at the earliest
http://criticalrole.wikia.com/wiki/Grog_Strongjaw

I like the IQ chart as an attempt but I think IQ is a complicated blend of Int, education, Wis and Cha.

Grog linked to above is a 6 int barbarian who is probably one step above Hulk speech and one of my favorite characters.

I want my characters to be different so maybe I'm more aggressive with where this or that tails off.

Do you all think a flatter Int chart or more aggressive one serves the game better?

[Naanomi]

I like the IQ chart as an attempt but I think IQ is a complicated blend of Int, education, Wis and Cha.
I honestly tend to lean the other way; I don't think IQ even covers most of what INT covers (at least not the Stanford-Binet)

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Do you think my description of Intelligence in human terms combined with NecroDancer's animal rankings above would help people figure out what they rolled?

How would you change either?

[SaurOps]

Do you think my description of Intelligence in human terms combined with NecroDancer's animal rankings above would help people figure out what they rolled?

No. For starters, how does someone without stereotypical notions of "orc" supposed to make sense of what that means for Int 6-7? And what's to say that an archmage is necessarily going to have a high Int? The archmage could have suffered one too many blows to the head, or just be more hardworking and daring than an abstract problem solver, or a theurgist who trusts in their deity more than many other wizards would, possessing a faith above all else. I also question the necessity to speak in order to reason or have a good memory; aside from, say, damage to vocal cords, and quirks of life that just don't prioritize vocalization in a creature's natural history but still require a method to solve problems, there are also genre standbys of beings too great for speech to matter that instead communicate in dreams, the meanings of which feeble meat creatures can only guess. Mind flayers come close to being this latter type, along with various other aberrations; how, then, does one actually understand what such an assignment actually means?

Sidenote: Speaking of the "animal" list entries, fungi aren't animals. They're a branch of life aside from animals and plants, with, among other notable differences, chitin cell walls and more sexes than one would likely imagine. Also, having myconids look like mushrooms is like fungal organisms imagining animals that look like walking vertebrate sex organs.



How would you change either?

By not assigning arbitrary descriptions and just leaving it up to the player to describe how their character is clever or not, or if they test well, things that they're keen to notice... the list could go on for a long time, because intelligence is an extremely nebulous concept. So much so that there isn't really a good, working definition that can hold true across a diverse study of other forms of life.

[Theodoxus]

"Apparently, all Int means is how high is your Int save and ability modifier to intelligence ability checks, not how smart or stupid the actual creature is."

Yup. This is true for all games. I've complained here in the past about games like World of Darkness, where a 5 in a stat is described as something like 1 in a billion, the absolute best a human could possible be. The top athlete, smartest man in the world, etc. But mechanically it made you slightly better than someone with a 4...

Same here. The mechanical difference between a 16 and 17 is nothing. At least between a 12 and 13, you're locked out of MC... with a 14 Str, you're slowed by plate armor... but there's no mechanical difference between 16 and 17... Now, I'm not saying there should be, but it harkens back to JackPhoenix is saying. Tying a specific Int number (or even mod) to a real world (or even fantasy world) example is doing a disservice. Yeah, killing the fluff reduces the game to maths, but attempting to qualify the quanta reduces the math to subjective opinion, which will vary not just by table, but even by day at the same table.

Honestly, I was hoping to find a discussion on homebrew mechanical boones for Int...

Besides, everyone talks about Int (arguably the least important stat outside of Wizards and Gnomes in 5E). I'd be far more curious about people's take on Wisdom. That's the mystery stat that no one seems to really grok...

[SaurOps]

"Apparently, all Int means is how high is your Int save and ability modifier to intelligence ability checks, not how smart or stupid the actual creature is."

Yup. This is true for all games. I've complained here in the past about games like World of Darkness, where a 5 in a stat is described as something like 1 in a billion, the absolute best a human could possible be. The top athlete, smartest man in the world, etc. But mechanically it made you slightly better than someone with a 4...

Not nearly so rare (unless you're using CoD instead of WoD), and the dice probability is a bit different, too. If you use a non-botchy version of the ST system, anyway.



Same here. The mechanical difference between a 16 and 17 is nothing. At least between a 12 and 13, you're locked out of MC... with a 14 Str, you're slowed by plate armor... but there's no mechanical difference between 16 and 17... Now, I'm not saying there should be, but it harkens back to JackPhoenix is saying. Tying a specific Int number (or even mod) to a real world (or even fantasy world) example is doing a disservice. Yeah, killing the fluff reduces the game to maths, but attempting to qualify the quanta reduces the math to subjective opinion, which will vary not just by table, but even by day at the same table.

Honestly, I was hoping to find a discussion on homebrew mechanical boones for Int...

Besides, everyone talks about Int (arguably the least important stat outside of Wizards and Gnomes in 5E). I'd be far more curious about people's take on Wisdom. That's the mystery stat that no one seems to really grok...

The swinginess of using a single d20 for checks and saves means that everyone ends up pressing the History Eraser Button after a long enough time period...

The beautiful, shiny button!

The jolly, candy-like button!

[Coidzor]

I'm also going to quote something from the IQ thread. I feel like JackPhoenix makes interesting points about 'intelligence'.





I think it's going to take a lot of data gathering from monster manuals to see what intelligence does for a creature and how other stats may play a role in their behaviors.

That's certainly interesting, but not that good of an example, given that Polymorph isn't really *changing* a creature's Int so much as temporarily replacing them with a completely different creature that's vaguely like the old one.