name a couple Sega Genesis games

[JeenLeen]

I recently remembered a couple games from when I was a kid (so 90s) for the Sega Genesis. At least, pretty sure it's that system; if not it, another of the similar time.

Can't remember the names, so hoping someone here might.

Game 1:
side-scrolling action game where you play an artist who is sucked into his comic by the villain of said comic. Had a lot of breaking the 4th-wall stuff. I think the enemies had an Aliens theme, and you had a pet rat (Scabbers?).

Game 2:
RPG. The plot was something like the king summons various 'heroes' to find the gems/runes/McGuffins. You pick one of these heroes to play as (most classic fantasy race/archetypes, plus a robot and demon). You can team up with at least one other hero, but once you find one McGuffin, the other heroes generally try to kill you to take it.
I remember one aspect was that you lost some percent of your gold if you die, but you could buy gemstones that sold for 100% value, so it was trading off inventory space vs. risking gold loss.
Graphics akin to Phantasy Star, perhaps minus cut scenes.

[cobaltstarfire]

I recently remembered a couple games from when I was a kid (so 90s) for the Sega Genesis. At least, pretty sure it's that system; if not it, another of the similar time.

Can't remember the names, so hoping someone here might.

Game 1:
side-scrolling action game where you play an artist who is sucked into his comic by the villain of said comic. Had a lot of breaking the 4th-wall stuff. I think the enemies had an Aliens theme, and you had a pet rat (Scabbers?).

Game 2:
RPG. The plot was something like the king summons various 'heroes' to find the gems/runes/McGuffins. You pick one of these heroes to play as (most classic fantasy race/archetypes, plus a robot and demon). You can team up with at least one other hero, but once you find one McGuffin, the other heroes generally try to kill you to take it.
I remember one aspect was that you lost some percent of your gold if you die, but you could buy gemstones that sold for 100% value, so it was trading off inventory space vs. risking gold loss.
Graphics akin to Phantasy Star, perhaps minus cut scenes.

The first one is probably Comix Zone, the second one doesn't ring any bells for me though.

[LibraryOgre]

Game 2:
RPG. The plot was something like the king summons various 'heroes' to find the gems/runes/McGuffins. You pick one of these heroes to play as (most classic fantasy race/archetypes, plus a robot and demon). You can team up with at least one other hero, but once you find one McGuffin, the other heroes generally try to kill you to take it.
I remember one aspect was that you lost some percent of your gold if you die, but you could buy gemstones that sold for 100% value, so it was trading off inventory space vs. risking gold loss.
Graphics akin to Phantasy Star, perhaps minus cut scenes.

Sounds like 7th Saga. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_7th_Saga)

[Otomodachi]

Darnit, you guys nailed it. Thought I was going to be the hero for once.

[danzibr]

Shucky dern. I got the first, but didn't know the second was for SNES only.

Interesting fact, that game was more grindy in the Japanese version. Apparently.

[Winter_Wolf]

A lot of games in Japan are more grindy. I can't explain why exactly that's fun, but I do know of a few instances where US releases of RPGs were panned for being grindy as hell, and it later came out that the Japanese releases were even more grindy with more frequent encounters along with lower loot drops and less XP. My own experience has borne this out with the Phantasy Star series I-IV. Especially PSII, the Japanese version of it is quite something dramatic for the number of life and death battles with crappy monsters that are hard to kill, do lots of damage, and are more common than mosquitoes over swamp water. And it isn't just a minor difference, it's pretty noticeable very early on and gets more dramatic the later into the game you get.

And Japanese game companies and gamers do in fact mock US gamers (mostly behind our backs) for needing a very easy mode. Personally if I'm going to do grindy repetitive crap that I don't find particularly enjoyable, I'd better be getting a paycheck and health benefits. Because it's gone from "game" to "work" and I don't work for free, let alone paying for the "privilege".

[JeenLeen]

Yep, those are the two games. I forgot that one was SNES, not Sega.

Thanks!

[danzibr]

A lot of games in Japan are more grindy. I can't explain why exactly that's fun, but I do know of a few instances where US releases of RPGs were panned for being grindy as hell, and it later came out that the Japanese releases were even more grindy with more frequent encounters along with lower loot drops and less XP. My own experience has borne this out with the Phantasy Star series I-IV. Especially PSII, the Japanese version of it is quite something dramatic for the number of life and death battles with crappy monsters that are hard to kill, do lots of damage, and are more common than mosquitoes over swamp water. And it isn't just a minor difference, it's pretty noticeable very early on and gets more dramatic the later into the game you get.

And Japanese game companies and gamers do in fact mock US gamers (mostly behind our backs) for needing a very easy mode. Personally if I'm going to do grindy repetitive crap that I don't find particularly enjoyable, I'd better be getting a paycheck and health benefits. Because it's gone from "game" to "work" and I don't work for free, let alone paying for the "privilege".
Whoa. The Phantasy Star series (I-IV at least, haven't played the later stuff) is one of my favorites. I don't think I'd like it nearly as much if it were more grindy.

IV's not so bad, but the others definitely require a fair bit of grinding.

[theMycon]

A lot of games in Japan are more grindy. I can't explain why exactly that's fun, but I do know of a few instances where US releases of RPGs were panned for being grindy as hell, and it later came out that the Japanese releases were even more grindy with more frequent encounters along with lower loot drops and less XP.

Working Designs games are often the opposite of this.
For their localization of Lunar:SSSC, they cut enemy HP by 50%, but doubled their damage and reduced XP by 25%. It made the game so you're always threatened by a full enemy party, but you can also decide most normal fights by the end of the first round.

[cobaltstarfire]

And Japanese game companies and gamers do in fact mock US gamers (mostly behind our backs) for needing a very easy mode.


I think that's kind of funny, because I know that they made Ecco the Dolphin noticeably more easy when it was released in Japan. Mainly by adding checkpoints, making it so that enemies don't respawn (which trivializes an ability that prevent enemies re-spawning), adding a passcode to make it even easier by removing some levels, and making the final boss less punishing (instead of dying in certain situations you just get sent to a short level you need to get through to get back to the boss)

I know that other games have been made easier or harder for both America or Japan. The JRPG makers sound more like they just don't want to acknowledge that one of their game design tenants is terrible and adds nothing to their games.

[Fri]

I think that's kind of funny, because I know that they made Ecco the Dolphin noticeably more easy when it was released in Japan. Mainly by adding checkpoints, making it so that enemies don't respawn (which trivializes an ability that prevent enemies re-spawning), adding a passcode to make it even easier by removing some levels, and making the final boss less punishing (instead of dying in certain situations you just get sent to a short level you need to get through to get back to the boss)

I know that other games have been made easier or harder for both America or Japan. The JRPG makers sound more like they just don't want to acknowledge that one of their game design tenants is terrible and adds nothing to their games.

IIRC isn't America's Final Fantasy IV's (released as II) "hard mode" is normal mode in japan, and the "normal mode" is the easy mode or something.

[cobaltstarfire]

IIRC isn't America's Final Fantasy IV's (released as II) "hard mode" is normal mode in japan, and the "normal mode" is the easy mode or something.



I'm actually not sure how this relates to what I said... but yes, that is exactly what Winter Wolf was talking about, and what I was responding to.

Games have been made easier for Japanese consumption, and they aren't always made "easier" for Western regions either. An RPG being grindy is a really meaningless form of "difficulty" as to me that's just bad game design, it doesn't take any skill to grind, just tolerance and time to waste. Which is why I asserted that it is silly for Japanese developers and players to mock the folks from outside regions for needing it to be "easier".

[Winter_Wolf]

I think that's kind of funny, because I know that they made Ecco the Dolphin noticeably more easy when it was released in Japan. Mainly by adding checkpoints, making it so that enemies don't respawn (which trivializes an ability that prevent enemies re-spawning), adding a passcode to make it even easier by removing some levels, and making the final boss less punishing (instead of dying in certain situations you just get sent to a short level you need to get through to get back to the boss)

I know that other games have been made easier or harder for both America or Japan. The JRPG makers sound more like they just don't want to acknowledge that one of their game design tenants is terrible and adds nothing to their games.


I'm actually not sure how this relates to what I said... but yes, that is exactly what Winter Wolf was talking about, and what I was responding to.

Games have been made easier for Japanese consumption, and they aren't always made "easier" for Western regions either. An RPG being grindy is a really meaningless form of "difficulty" as to me that's just bad game design, it doesn't take any skill to grind, just tolerance and time to waste. Which is why I asserted that it is silly for Japanese developers and players to mock the folks from outside regions for needing it to be "easier".

I don't disagree with either of your points, and it's edifying to know that there have been cases of games being made easier for the Japanese market. I'll bet you I can predict a standard response or two from the Japanese market based on the gamers I've interacted with, though. Suffice it to say, largely dismissive.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Heck, remember the original Dragon Warrior? You want a grind game, that one is about 85% grinding. Early game, you're grinding for the gear and levels you need to get to Rimuldar. Then you're grinding in the place you find the harp until you can take on the Axe Knight for Erdrick's Armor. Then take down the dragon for the princess, and grab the parts you need for the Rainbow Drop. Then grind more for the shield and more levels to take on the final dungeon. Then win.

And it is all grinding. You are never the level you need to be when you get somewhere, and you are never appropriately geared. DW II and III did a LOT to fix this by making bigger dungeons that you need to go through to give you the levels and gold you need to keep relevant without mandatory grinding after every step.

And, on the topic of JRPG developers insulting American gamers... anyone remember Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest? Wasn't even supposed to BE a Final Fantasy game originally.

[Gnoman]

With regard to RPGs specifically being made easier for US releases, this was because console RPGs were not a thing in the US at the time. On one hand, RPG cartridges were extremely expensive to begin with (due to the much higher amounts of RAM and ROM needed, and the save battery, etc). On the other, consoles (thanks to Nintendo of America's marketing policies) were heavily pigeon-holed as a toy for small children in the NES era. This led to console RPGs having difficulty finding a market, and that market having trouble affording them (and thus most of the people who wanted to play RPGs doing so on a computer). Meanwhile, in Japan, PCs struggled to make a market impact and consoles were king.

This lead to the companies trying to adapt games designed for a market very familiar with them (very few games actually require grinding, as in most cases it is just a "I can't be bothered to learn the best way to do things, and thus I'll just become so overpowered it does not matter" button) to a market that was very much not.

[KillianHawkeye]

And, on the topic of JRPG developers insulting American gamers... anyone remember Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest? Wasn't even supposed to BE a Final Fantasy game originally.

Wait, really? I know it was called "Final Fantasy USA" in Japan, but I've never heard this. What was it originally supposed to be?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wait, really? I know it was called "Final Fantasy USA" in Japan, but I've never heard this. What was it originally supposed to be?

Just like Super Mario Bros. 2 was originally supposed to be a completely different game not in the Mario franchise with the characters scribbled in at the last minute, FF:MQ was originally supposed to be something not even remotely Final Fantasy related, but after the huge success with Final Fantasy 2 (or IV as it is known now), there was a huge clamoring for another release of a Final Fantasy game, but 3 (VI) wasn't ready yet. But rushing VI would have been a mistake, and making a brand new game mid-development cycle was just asking for disaster. So they took someone's pet project (Another Squaresoft title that wasn't expected to do very well), and basically paid him to change it to a Final Fantasy game. Which is why you see none of the typical Final Fantasy franchise items floating around in it, other than the 'four crystals', which is a recurring theme with many different franchises.

The game was already targeted at Americans, which is why they chose that one to go forward with, and thus Final Fantasy: USA was born. An insult an entire generation of gamers only forgave because it was bracketed by IV and VI, two of the most epic games on the SNES.

[Gnoman]

Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest was designed from the beginning as a FF spinoff for novice RPG gamers. It deliberately used mechanics from Saga III/Final Fantasy Legend III (which was fairly successful in the US market), but was never anything but "Final Fantasy USA", and it certainly wasn't some sort of "rush to fill the gap" game.

[danzibr]

Hmm. The above two posts say very different things. I must investigate this.

[Fri]

I'm actually not sure how this relates to what I said... but yes, that is exactly what Winter Wolf was talking about, and what I was responding to.

Games have been made easier for Japanese consumption, and they aren't always made "easier" for Western regions either. An RPG being grindy is a really meaningless form of "difficulty" as to me that's just bad game design, it doesn't take any skill to grind, just tolerance and time to waste. Which is why I asserted that it is silly for Japanese developers and players to mock the folks from outside regions for needing it to be "easier".

Pretty sure I was meant to quote WinterWolf's post but somehow quoted you:smallbiggrin:

[KillianHawkeye]

Hmmmm..... :smallconfused:

[LibraryOgre]

I tend to agree that grinding for the sake of grinding isn't fun... but you also have the other side, where grinding gets you TOO far... where you can grind yourself out of difficulty.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I tend to agree that grinding for the sake of grinding isn't fun... but you also have the other side, where grinding gets you TOO far... where you can grind yourself out of difficulty.

Such as FF VII and 'Quatra-Summon + KOTR / Mimic / Mimic' combo? Granted, takes a bit to grind up Mimic, but once you do, it is effectively one hit KO on anything... except Ruby who has a gimmick.

[LibraryOgre]

Such as FF VII and 'Quatra-Summon + KOTR / Mimic / Mimic' combo? Granted, takes a bit to grind up Mimic, but once you do, it is effectively one hit KO on anything... except Ruby who has a gimmick.

...I have no idea what you just said.

[JeenLeen]

In general to grinding, I just don't have the patience anymore (due to real life responsibilities limiting gaming time.). I recall in some games I'd get in a 'grindy' mood and level up a lot. Like in Final Fantasy Tactics I reached level 99 before recruiting Agrias one time. But that was an extreme example.


Such as FF VII and 'Quatra-Summon + KOTR / Mimic / Mimic' combo? Granted, takes a bit to grind up Mimic, but once you do, it is effectively one hit KO on anything... except Ruby who has a gimmick.


...I have no idea what you just said.

I forgot one of those materia existed, but I'll translate.
In FF7, have one character with 'cast a summon multiple times' materia paired with Knights of the Round, so on their turn they cast Knights of the Round 4 times. (One casting can kill the final boss, I think, so that's powerful.)
Have the other members of your party equipped with the Mimic materia, letting them copy the original's actions.
Thus, 3 people each cast Knights of the Round 4 times.

[Winter_Wolf]

True enough th other face of grinding is making everything after a cakewalk. I recall doing it a couple of times with JRPGs and it made things go much quicker after you were doing sick damage per hit and didn't even need to use magic/techniques/specials. But getting to that point was a test of fortitude, if I may use that word. So mind numbingly boring.

The same could be said of grinding skill ups in US RPGs (Skyrim), but generally it wasn't necessary but really just exploiting a mechanic for a he lulz. It just bothers me when role playing games fall back on grinding to pad "gameplay length". Mister developer and marketing guy, your game isn't really 60+ hours long, the actual game sans slow painful leveling is about ten to fifteen hours if players stop to smell the roses once in a while.

[danzibr]

Such as FF VII and 'Quatra-Summon + KOTR / Mimic / Mimic' combo? Granted, takes a bit to grind up Mimic, but once you do, it is effectively one hit KO on anything... except Ruby who has a gimmick.

I forgot one of those materia existed, but I'll translate.
In FF7, have one character with 'cast a summon multiple times' materia paired with Knights of the Round, so on their turn they cast Knights of the Round 4 times. (One casting can kill the final boss, I think, so that's powerful.)
Have the other members of your party equipped with the Mimic materia, letting them copy the original's actions.
Thus, 3 people each cast Knights of the Round 4 times.
There's no Quatra-Summon Materia. And Quadra Magic doesn't work with KotR. It's really W-Summon + KotR / Mime / Mime.

Sorry, had to do it :P

EDIT: Oh, what happens is the first person casts an absurdly strong ability twice, then the others copy it for free, and with a third Mime, the first person can copy it too (they wouldn't have enough MP for a second cast, unless you have HP<->MP Materia.

[Velaryon]

There's no Quatra-Summon Materia. And Quadra Magic doesn't work with KotR. It's really W-Summon + KotR / Mime / Mime.

Sorry, had to do it :P

EDIT: Oh, what happens is the first person casts an absurdly strong ability twice, then the others copy it for free, and with a third Mime, the first person can copy it too (they wouldn't have enough MP for a second cast, unless you have HP<->MP Materia.

I'd also like to add, it's an ability that hits 13 separate times (usually for max or near max damage with each hit), with an unskippable cutscene that lasts more than a minute for each casting.

It's the absolute epitome of overkill in Final Fantasy 7. Here's a single casting (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heL6FCojAbI). Now imagine six of them in a row.

[Rosstin]

Working Designs games are often the opposite of this.
For their localization of Lunar:SSSC, they cut enemy HP by 50%, but doubled their damage and reduced XP by 25%. It made the game so you're always threatened by a full enemy party, but you can also decide most normal fights by the end of the first round.

I remember that these changes were actually pretty enjoyable. (Well, the HP/Damage one, anyway.)