Imprisoning a recurring villain

[BruceBanner]

So, my DM has collected a number of villains that the party has killed into a group that he continually sends against us. We have captured some in the past, but the DM argued against killing them because of our good alignments. After a lot of arguing, we imprisoned them in a room on our ship, from which they were rescued through scrying and teleport. My party has access to a good deal of magic, we are ninth level and have a druid, wizard, and cleric. The wizard is a master specialist focused on conjuration, and I know he has illusion banned. I am not sure which other schools are off of the table. My druid is an arcane hierophant, but it will be a while until he has access to any of the good stuff. What I am looking for is a plan that we can implement to trap members of this enemy party indefinitely, and I understand it will probably be a few levels before it is possible. I also know that DM fiat can bring them back, but I want to be as thorough as possible. I have considered plane shifting the leader to a dead magic plane, but I am sure there are other solutions. The only other thing I know about their leader is that he has assassin levels.

[Baby Gary]

there is this spell called Imprisonment try it

[flappeercraft]

About the good alignment thing, if they are evil killing them would be a good act and not against your alignment but actually in favor of it.

Otherwise, I would reccomend putting them on a trap that is in a way both trapping/killing them but also life support. If they are taken out they die. For example something that could be like that would be casting putrefaction (Dragon Magazine 300) on them and sending them to a dead magic plane. There are ways that could potentially take them out but if they go out of there the effect resumes and within rounds they will die. Of course Putrefaction is a corrupt and a 9th level spell and therefore out of your grasp but a good and lower level equivalent could be found with some research.

[BruceBanner]

Thanks... I'm surprised I've never heard of imprisonment. Probably because 9th usually means shapechange. Seems like it would fit the bill. Still open to other suggestions of course

[Hackulator]

Thanks... I'm surprised I've never heard of imprisonment. Probably because 9th usually means shapechange. Seems like it would fit the bill. Still open to other suggestions of course

If Imprisonment is available to you, it is the best option. However, if it is, it means Freedom, which releases people from Imprisonment could theoretically be available to your enemies, so you'd still want to be careful.

Also, if you're Lawful Good, get the King to condemn them to death and then carry out the order.

[BruceBanner]

If Imprisonment is available to you, it is the best option. However, if it is, it means Freedom, which releases people from Imprisonment could theoretically be available to your enemies, so you'd still want to be careful.

Also, if you're Lawful Good, get the King to condemn them to death and then carry out the order.

My character is chaotic neutral, and at the time was the captain of a ship. I tried to claim maritime law and order a hanging, but it didn't go over so well with the DM. I think our only LG Character is a cohort paladin, whose say wouldn't matter much. It was clear he wanted the villains to survive, but I don't think he would fiat their release if we had a concrete plan. It was stupid of us to lock them away without a watch. At the time we did though, we didn't have access to teleport and foolishly assumed they wouldn't either.

[Hackulator]

My character is chaotic neutral, and at the time was the captain of a ship. I tried to claim maritime law and order a hanging, but it didn't go over so well with the DM. I think our only LG Character is a cohort paladin, whose say wouldn't matter much. It was clear he wanted the villains to survive, but I don't think he would fiat their release if we had a concrete plan. It was stupid of us to lock them away without a watch. At the time we did though, we didn't have access to teleport and foolishly assumed they wouldn't either.

Honestly, if you're chaotic neutral you should just murder them next time. Act like you're down with imprisoning them and then when you get alone with them just kill them.

[KillianHawkeye]

Honestly, if you're chaotic neutral you should just murder them next time. Act like you're down with imprisoning them and then when you get alone with them just kill them.

You seem to be confusing Chaotic Neutral with Chaotic Evil.... :smallsigh:

[Sam K]

Am I reading it right that your DM is telling you that you cant/shouldn't be killing the bad guys for whatever reason? If so, it sounds like the problem is your DM.

Obviously, a DM can point out that things might go against a players morality ("Bob, as a sworn pacifict brother of the church of the Peace-loving Snugglebunny Fluffmodeus, torturing the goblin baby just to hear it scream might be against your wovs."), but a DM should never go in and tell players that they "Can't do something because of their alignment" or something as such.

Get some scrolls/wands/minions capable of casting disintegrate. Zap the prisoners. When someone asks, say "Oh, they must have escaped."

[Celestia]

Cast Flesh to Stone to turn them into a statue. Then take a hammer to that statue and turn it into dust. Dump that dust into a bucket of water to make mud. Cast Purify Water followed by Destroy Water to permanently eliminate all traces of them. During this process, they never technically die so they can't be brought back to life, not even through True Resurrection or Wish. They simply cease to exist. Arguably, the villain would likely become a vestige through this process, but those cannot physically alter the world. So, they are still effectively out of the picture.

[Hackulator]

You seem to be confusing Chaotic Neutral with Chaotic Evil.... :smallsigh:

These are BAD GUYS. Even a good character can kill evil people at times. Murdering evil people to promote good overall falls solidly in neutral territory.

[Crake]

About the good alignment thing, if they are evil killing them would be a good act and not against your alignment but actually in favor of it.

Otherwise, I would reccomend putting them on a trap that is in a way both trapping/killing them but also life support. If they are taken out they die. For example something that could be like that would be casting putrefaction (Dragon Magazine 300) on them and sending them to a dead magic plane. There are ways that could potentially take them out but if they go out of there the effect resumes and within rounds they will die. Of course Putrefaction is a corrupt and a 9th level spell and therefore out of your grasp but a good and lower level equivalent could be found with some research.

Unlawful and unsanctioned killing is the very definition of murder, and murder is quite widely seen as evil. In a civilized society, execution is saved only for those deemed irredeemable and unable to be rehabilitated into society. In a world with magic that can do that, there's actually no Good reason to kill a prisoner, at best it's neutral, at worst it's evil, taking the easy way out. The only time killing someone should be acceptable in the eyes of a Good character is in self defense, or in the defense of others, where nonlethal methods could endanger the lives of others.

[KillianHawkeye]

These are BAD GUYS. Even a good character can kill evil people at times. Murdering evil people to promote good overall falls solidly in neutral territory.

Sorry, but killing evil people is not the same thing as murdering them. Murdering prisoners for no reason other than convenience is something that only evil people do.

Also, you can't murder someone "to promote good overall" because the ends not justifying the means is one of the basic tenets of the Good alignment. Maybe you could try to claim that doing so would come out Neutral on balance, but I'd say that any character who attempts to do so is merely deluding themselves to ease their conscience.

[Darth Ultron]

Flesh to stone makes them stone statues.
Any polymorph can make them an animal.


Both are great ways to keep someone ''alive'', but not ''around''.

Feebelmind is the classic. Just zap them and let them wash the deck of your ship.


If your DM is really being so ''bad'' about killing...you might want to not take prisoners. You CAN kill bad guys and stuff in your normal fights, right? Well, you might just not want to take prisoners. So unless the DM is like ''the bad guy throws down all his weapons and begs for life!", you might be better off doing the ''I know he has like five hit points left...fireball!"(don't say that out loud).

[Zephonim]

Does the Kingdom have the death sentence? Go see the King or whatever ruling body and ask permission to LEGALLY execute these ****s. Oh there is also a spell from book of exalted deeds that imprisons evil beings inside of a gem and turns them good if they are contained for a year... at the cost of a level.

[Talverin]

That does sound more like a DM issue than an actual 'campaign feature'. Tell me, would your character really be THAT opposed to this repeated nuisance coming back AGAIN? I think it would be more reasonable for a character to lose their patience and end the situation permanently. Expensive and high level versions of ways to imprison the bad guys are great and all, but aren't always -accessible.- Sometimes, the bad guy just... Needs to go. You can dress it up pretty or you can cut throats in the middle of the night.

"They represent a clear and present danger to the safety of (the region). We have tried to turn them from their ways and imprison them to prevent them from causing more problems. A more permanent solution is required."

Alternatively, the DM may be a little more subtle than that -

I've done it before. Hey, that kinda thing... It sure does sound evil, doesn't it? It sure doesn't sound very good of you to do that... And then the party chickens out when the truth is I was looking for the character that would step up and go, "No. He needs to die."

[Hackulator]

Sorry, but killing evil people is not the same thing as murdering them. Murdering prisoners for no reason other than convenience is something that only evil people do.

Also, you can't murder someone "to promote good overall" because the ends not justifying the means is one of the basic tenets of the Good alignment. Maybe you could try to claim that doing so would come out Neutral on balance, but I'd say that any character who attempts to do so is merely deluding themselves to ease their conscience.

"I'm sorry that your sense of morality is worth more than the lives of all the people this guy will murder when he escapes AGAIN."

-me to any number of people in any number of games

[logic_error]

^Someone explain that to batman and superman, please.

[Hackulator]

^Someone explain that to batman and superman, please.

With Batman and Superman it's not actually about that. It's that for different reasons, it's very dangerous for either of them to cross that line. Superman because he is basically a god, and Batman because he is already so close to the edge that he would have trouble stepping back over that line.

It's important to note however that in many iterations Batman HAS killed people. The idea that he would never kill is something that is very popular now but hasn't always been the case.

[Jay R]

These are BAD GUYS. Even a good character can kill evil people at times. Murdering evil people to promote good overall falls solidly in neutral territory.

"... at times". Specifically, in immediate self-defense, or in immediate defense of another.

But killing a helpless prisoner because that's more convenient than guarding him? That's murder, plain and simple. The next person on another side who captured you would be just as justified in doing the same to you, and for the same reasons.


"I'm sorry that your sense of morality is worth more than the lives of all the people this guy will murder when he escapes AGAIN."

-me to any number of people in any number of games

I understand and sympathize with the impulse to throw out all moral and legal structure on utilitarian grounds. But it's still operating outside of all moral and legal structure. Note that most often, you would be killing people specifically because they did what you're about to do - kill people in their power who were inconvenient to them.


Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it.


Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I’d cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you -- where would you hide, Roper, all the laws being flat? This country's planted think with laws from coast to coast -- man’s laws, not God’s -- and if you cut them down -- and you’re just the man to do it -- d' you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give he Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake.

[Hackulator]

"... at times". Specifically, in immediate self-defense, or in immediate defense of another.

But killing a helpless prisoner because that's more convenient than guarding him? That's murder, plain and simple. The next person on another side who captured you would be just as justified in doing the same to you, and for the same reasons.



I understand and sympathize with the impulse to throw out all moral and legal structure on utilitarian grounds. But it's still operating outside of all moral and legal structure. Note that most often, you would be killing people specifically because they did what you're about to do - kill people in their power who were inconvenient to them.

Yes but we were talking about a chaotic neutral character so legal structure means nothing and moral structure does not adhere to "good" morality. Neutral characters commit both evil and good acts. Killing someone for utilitarian reasons can totally fall inside a neutral characters bailiwick. How many neutral outsiders murder things to preserve some abstract concept of balance?

[Jay R]

Yes but we were talking about a chaotic neutral character ...

No, we weren't. You specifically and unambiguously said, "... even a good character ...."

[rel]

Wait there are parties of adventurers that don't have a kill them all and dust the bodies policy? Madness!

Aside from the obvious advice of starting such a policy here are some suggestions:

helm of opposite alignment
mundane diplomacy
trap the soul
baleful polymorph
one way trip to a place that is hard to leave (dead magic plane, ravenloft, darksun)
forbidance a portable hole, petrify the target and stick them in the hole
hand them over to authorities that are big on execution

Alternatively you are not murder hobos (since you don't murder) maybe you have a house, fortress or similar base staffed by competent allies you can store the prisoners inside of

This is in general why an evil PC is so usefull to a good party. They will do what needs to be done but the other party members cannot bring themselves to do.

[Anxe]

Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/binding.htm) is one that my group has started using a little bit.

Bestow Curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm) and it's older brother Bestow Greater Curse are also great ways of permanently disabling someone. Do it on a caster and lower their casting stat. Boom! No more spells.

Mind Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSeed.htm) is another way of preventing them from being a problem. Casting it could be seen as another form of execution though.

Programmed Amnesia is an option as well. You can just change their alignment/motivations/desire for grandma's world destroying cookie recipe. Now they don't do evil things anymore or can't if you lock their character levels away.

[BearonVonMu]

4 Winds Fantasy Gaming (a third party for Pathfinder) put a wicked feat on the Pathfinder SRD: Improved Sever. It allows you to lop off an enemy's limbs. That could be a terrific way to hinder the escape and recurring villainy of your captured foes.

Also, I second the notion of simply not capturing foes but allowing excessive force to do the heavy lifting. If brute force does not solve your problem, you are not using enough!

[Hackulator]

No, we weren't. You specifically and unambiguously said, "... even a good character ...."

Good job cherry picking part of my post so you could take it out of context. What I said was "Even a good character can kill evil people at times. Murdering evil people to promote good overall falls solidly in neutral territory." The character I said should kill the prisoners was chaotic neutral.

[Arbane]

With Batman and Superman it's not actually about that. It's that for different reasons, it's very dangerous for either of them to cross that line. Superman because he is basically a god, and Batman because he is already so close to the edge that he would have trouble stepping back over that line.

It's important to note however that in many iterations Batman HAS killed people. The idea that he would never kill is something that is very popular now but hasn't always been the case.

Besides, comic-book villains come back from the dead all the time.

From the Doylist perspective, it's because DC Comics doesn't want to permadeath any character they might use again someday. Not even the Ten-Eyed Man.

[BruceBanner]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys, I'll be sure to put them to good use in the future!

[Shackel]

Yeah, I agree that a CN character sounds like exactly the type of person who would say he's imprisoning them and then just murder all of them when no one is paying attention. It's by no means for the glory of murder, death or torture, it's because they'd rather let this minor evil stain their consciousness than allow villains to keep walking around without repercussion. It's an evil act, but it's also specifically getting rid of evil for an overall good long-term purpose. Definition of neutral if you ask me.

[Godskook]

Sorry, but killing evil people is not the same thing as murdering them. Murdering prisoners for no reason other than convenience is something that only evil people do.

Also, you can't murder someone "to promote good overall" because the ends not justifying the means is one of the basic tenets of the Good alignment. Maybe you could try to claim that doing so would come out Neutral on balance, but I'd say that any character who attempts to do so is merely deluding themselves to ease their conscience.

Murder "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."

When you adhere to no other law than your own(Chaotic, think Dexter), it is not murder to kill someone who is in violation of your codes. See Malcolm Reynolds, who frequently killed prisoners, and quite reasonably threatened to kill Jayne, but imho, was CG all along.

[Anxe]

Yeah, I agree that a CN character sounds like exactly the type of person who would say he's imprisoning them and then just murder all of them when no one is paying attention. It's by no means for the glory of murder, death or torture, it's because they'd rather let this minor evil stain their consciousness than allow villains to keep walking around without repercussion. It's an evil act, but it's also specifically getting rid of evil for an overall good long-term purpose. Definition of neutral if you ask me.

I had a character who did exactly that and that's also exactly why I picked the CN alignment for him. BRAVO!

[Hackulator]

Murder "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."

When you adhere to no other law than your own(Chaotic, think Dexter), it is not murder to kill someone who is in violation of your codes. See Malcolm Reynolds, who frequently killed prisoners, and quite reasonably threatened to kill Jayne, but imho, was CG all along.

When Mal kicked that guy into the engine.....one of the great moments in TV history.

[Zanos]

Executing captives is definitely non-good but it's not that Evil considering its already been displayed that without a more permanent solution these people will escape and try to harm people again.

I'd say it's a step towards the deep end of the Alignment pool, but I wouldn't drop someone to Evil unless they started executing captives before they proved they could escape.

A DM setting up recurring villains can't get rid of "because of your alignment" is a bit of a red flag honestly.

[Malroth]

Just find your local Lawful Evil Necromancer and have him Necrotic Cyst them into taking down their own Organization.