unpickable door. (updated)

[Jgosse]

So I just had a thought for a campaign. The party has to get through a door. The door has 8 (arbitrary number) locks, the locks have to be done one after another. If some one picks a lock the next one is harder and so on and a single fail locks all the previous locks again. The door itself has an anti magi field around it. so the campaign is collecting all the keys and dealing with what is behind the door.



Ten years ago a days ride north of the city of Itdosentmatter a group of minners uncovered a cave that contained a door 20 feet high and 40 feet high. The miners could not open the door no matter what they tried, nor could they tunnel around it. They went back to town and spread word of the door. Soon thieves of great renowned and the greater thieves no one heard of showed up to try and pick the 8 locks on the door but all failed. Mages were baffled as all the magic they tried seemed to melt away from the door. Even a group of dwarven minors showed up. They excavated every inch of workable stone only to uncover a massive ancient structure buried in the earth. It became a great mystery to all in the area, a mystery you have decided to try and solve, for the sake of curiosity, renown, or greed. You now must track down the 8 keys and open the door.

[clash]

Rather than frsutrating the party with trying and failing at picking the locks when it is impossible to get through. Why not just have a door that doesnt have keyholes and therefore cannot be picked. Make it have indents where magic stones go or the like so there isnt an attempt to open it without the "keys"

[Contrast]

What you have described isn't an unpickable door, its an annoyingly difficult door to lockpick.

If the premise of your campaign can be defeated by the party rogue saying 'I spend the next x weeks, 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, trying to unlock the door' then you need to reconsider your premise. I guess you could set the DC arbitrarily high but all that does is make the rogue feel incompetent.

As clash said, not too difficult to sort though, you just need to introduce something to make the door actually unpickable - maybe after the first few locks they realise the next look needs a specific combination or code. Or the old Indiana Jones thing where they need a specific artifact to figure out the correct position, etc.

[coolAlias]

There exists no door which mundane means cannot defeat, at least in the real world. Even if you go on to change all the locks to not be locks (because as mentioned, they would be pickable eventually), what's to stop the players from bringing crowbars, mining tools, etc. to either pry open or completely go around this door? Is the rest of the chamber impenetrable? What makes it so?

Other than that, it could be an interesting gimmick to have to collect 8 x keys like in Zelda games, but that in and of itself doesn't make an interesting campaign. Why should anyone care about this door? That's the really important question.

[Zalabim]

Unless you're building your own Stargate, one chevron at a time, there doesn't seem to be any way to force someone to go through the hassle of collecting the keys or 'keys' to whatever door you have in mind. So make it a magic door.

[JellyPooga]

Unless you're building your own Stargate, one chevron at a time, there doesn't seem to be any way to force someone to go through the hassle of collecting the keys or 'keys' to whatever door you have in mind. So make it a magic door.

Thinking of Stargates, a combination lock of sufficient complexity is effectively unpickable. If you wanted to really throw a spanner in the works, you can always go full-Stargate and have the door open to several locations, most of which are red-herrings or even mini-adventures in their own right that lead the PCs to the right combinatin they're looking for. Stargate was a great premise for a series; there's no reason it wouldn't work just as well or better for a roleplaying game; just reskin it for fantasy.

[qube]

There exists no door which mundane means cannot defeat, at least in the real world. Even if you go on to change all the locks to not be locks (because as mentioned, they would be pickable eventually), what's to stop the players from bringing crowbars, mining tools, etc. to either pry open or completely go around this door? Is the rest of the chamber impenetrable? What makes it so?ah yes, the good old question of why have a solid adamantine door guarding something protected by stone walls :D

[Foxhound438]

Other than that, it could be an interesting gimmick to have to collect 8 x keys like in Zelda games, but that in and of itself doesn't make an interesting campaign. Why should anyone care about this door? That's the really important question.

Yeah, you'd really have to make it sound like there's some kind of treasure in there that's worth the trouble and whatnot

But I really do like the idea of the "combo lock" stargate that has 9999 (or however many, if all of them even work) locations that sometimes give you hints.

[Blacky the Blackball]

ah yes, the good old question of why have a solid adamantine door guarding something protected by stone walls :D

And any adventurers worth their salt simply dismantle the walls in order to loot and sell the door...

[Jgosse]

Rather than frsutrating the party with trying and failing at picking the locks when it is impossible to get through. Why not just have a door that doesnt have keyholes and therefore cannot be picked. Make it have indents where magic stones go or the like so there isnt an attempt to open it without the "keys"
Because magic doesn't have to be the solution to everything. maybe the party finds most but not all and then it becomes a viable option to pick the lock.

[Jgosse]

Rather than frsutrating the party with trying and failing at picking the locks when it is impossible to get through. Why not just have a door that doesnt have keyholes and therefore cannot be picked. Make it have indents where magic stones go or the like so there isnt an attempt to open it without the "keys"

Adding some more thoughts to the original post.

[Unoriginal]

What would be on the other side of the door to motivate people to go through such a bother?

[Moosoculars]

I think this depends on location and the party.

A party has lots of magical ways to bypass a door. Even at low levels, drill a hole and misty step, rope trick above the door and drop down the other side, reduce!. Shatter and thunder wave. And that is before stone shape dim door etc

A door like this is only a challenge if there is a time pressure to open it (so they can't sit there and wreck it) or it is a remote location where they can't stay there easily (freezing at the top of a mountain for example). I wouldn't use monsters to guard it as this devolves the game into repetitive combats until the door opens without any story.

If it is simply a matter of successful rolls the you will probably have a series of bardic inspired, guidance driven rolls until they all succeed or a probability calculation of when the door will be open. Very dull.

But for low level pcs finding a door up the top of a freezing mountain and learning of the keys needed but being unable to stay there or pick the locks seems like a good set up for an adventure for 6 or 7 levels time after they get the keys (or better magic to bypass it) and go back to get the loot they missed. Then there can be a whole tougher adventure waiting.

[smcmike]

What would be on the other side of the door to motivate people to go through such a bother?

Perhaps it isn't what's on the other side - it's what's on this side. Maybe the door is the way out.

[Jgosse]

What would be on the other side of the door to motivate people to go through such a bother?
Maybe the mystery is motivation on its own. Maybe the renown of being the own to discover it. Or some one may be offering a reward to anyone who can get through the door.

[Willie the Duck]

So I just had a thought for a campaign.


Maybe the mystery is motivation on its own. Maybe the renown of being the own to discover it. Or some one may be offering a reward to anyone who can get through the door.

This, I believe, is the discontinuity the rest of us are having. You don't seem to have a thought for a campaign. What you have is a mechanic for providing a locus of action for the PCs to center on (a door, which they might eventually get open), and you seem to be actively resisting our attempts to get you to think out what might turn this into a campaign.

People have suggested things like magic stones or Zelda keys, but you want to keep it lockpicking. Okay, other than being given the opportunity to repeatedly roll their dice in sequence to eventually come up with the right combination of rolls to get through the door, what does this plot device offer the PCs?


a mystery you have decided to try and solve.

I know my group wouldn't. They'd go find something else to do.

[Mellack]

Ten years ago a days ride north of the city of Itdosentmatter a group of minners uncovered a cave that contained a door 20 feet high and 40 feet high. The miners could not open the door no matter what they tried, nor could they tunnel around it. They went back to town and spread word of the door. Soon thieves of great renowned and the greater thieves no one heard of showed up to try and pick the 8 locks on the door but all failed. Mages were baffled as all the magic they tried seemed to melt away from the door. Even a group of dwarven minors showed up. They excavated every inch of workable stone only to uncover a massive ancient structure buried in the earth. It became a great mystery to all in the area, a mystery you have decided to try and solve.

So how are a group of low/mid level adventurers going to pick this door when high level thieves couldn't? What does it mean that the structure is unworkable stone? What reason is there for the adventurers to try this when experts have already failed? What is inside if they do get it open? You need to have answers for these things because players will be doing things that require you to be prepared.

[Jgosse]

This, I believe, is the discontinuity the rest of us are having. You don't seem to have a thought for a campaign. What you have is a mechanic for providing a locus of action for the PCs to center on (a door, which they might eventually get open), and you seem to be actively resisting our attempts to get you to think out what might turn this into a campaign.

People have suggested things like magic stones or Zelda keys, but you want to keep it lockpicking. Okay, other than being given the opportunity to repeatedly roll their dice in sequence to eventually come up with the right combination of rolls to get through the door, what does this plot device offer the PCs?



I know my group wouldn't. They'd go find something else to do.
This is what happens when I post at work. I didn't realize that I never mentioned did not acknowledge the fact that finding keys would be part of the campaign out right. The idea is to try and force them to find the keys and not find away around it.

[coolAlias]

you have decided[/B] to try and solve.
As long as this is the campaign pitch and you get everyone on board before the game starts, that's a perfectly acceptable start to the game; otherwise, the part I bolded is a HUGE assumption on your part, and you should be prepared to have the players completely ignore your hook. Good players will usually bite, but there is no guarantee.

Minor (ha) nitpick: you probably meant to write dwarven miners, not minors.

[nickl_2000]

SNIP
Minor (ha) nitpick: you probably meant to write dwarven miners, not minors.

I think you are making an assumption not in evidence here :smallwink:. It may not have been opened because it was a bunch of dwarven children tried to open it verses those trained in mining.




By the way, if I'm spending an entire campaign gathering keys to open the door there had better be a good payoff in the end to what's behind the door. I would be ticked if it was just a dragon's treasure hoard.

[Jgosse]

I think you are making an assumption not in evidence here :smallwink:. It may not have been opened because it was a bunch of dwarven children tried to open it verses those trained in mining.




By the way, if I'm spending an entire campaign gathering keys to open the door there had better be a good payoff in the end to what's behind the door. I would be ticked if it was just a dragon's treasure hoard.

Trying to decide. Part of me wants it to be a prison and have them unleash something horrible, but my original thought was a dungeon.

[smcmike]

Pull a Geraldo, and just make it an empty room.

[nickl_2000]

Trying to decide. Part of me wants it to be a prison and have them unleash something horrible, but my original thought was a dungeon.

If you are doing a dungeon it still begs the question of what is in the dungeon. What was so important/dangerous that it needed to be locked in. How has whatever is in the prison/dungeon survived for the years that this door has been locked?

[Flashy]

If you are doing a dungeon it still begs the question of what is in the dungeon. What was so important/dangerous that it needed to be locked in. How has whatever is in the prison/dungeon survived for the years that this door has been locked?

And why are they messing with this prison that has apparently worked just fine, given that the door is still massively locked?

Personally I'd expect to encounter some kind of world/cosmos redefining secret behind a door like that. It's the sort of thing you use to keep people away from ideas they're not supposed to be able to handle.

[nickl_2000]

And why are they messing with this prison that has apparently worked just fine, given that the door is still massively locked?

Personally I'd expect to encounter some kind of world/cosmos redefining secret behind a door like that. It's the sort of thing you use to keep people away from ideas they're not supposed to be able to handle.

A dimensional gate would certainly be interesting

[coolAlias]

And why are they messing with this prison that has apparently worked just fine, given that the door is still massively locked?

Personally I'd expect to encounter some kind of world/cosmos redefining secret behind a door like that. It's the sort of thing you use to keep people away from ideas they're not supposed to be able to handle.
Or a black-hole-like Sphere of Annihilation that destroys the entire world/cosmos. Always a fitting end to a campaign. :mitd:

[Mellack]

Since they have uncovered this massive structure, what is stopping someone going ethereal and walking in?

[Jgosse]

Since they have uncovered this massive structure, what is stopping someone going ethereal and walking in?
See that is what I am looking for, now I have to figure out a counter.

[Jgosse]

As long as this is the campaign pitch and you get everyone on board before the game starts, that's a perfectly acceptable start to the game; otherwise, the part I bolded is a HUGE assumption on your part, and you should be prepared to have the players completely ignore your hook. Good players will usually bite, but there is no guarantee.

Minor (ha) nitpick: you probably meant to write dwarven miners, not minors.
Yeah I wrote that on my walk to work this morning, will fix that in my next update.

[nickl_2000]

See that is what I am looking for, now I have to figure out a counter.

A dimensional door to a pocket dimension takes care of that. Then the anti-magic field will prevent the entry through the dimensional door. You can do whatever you like with the pocket dimension still.

[denthor]

What would be on the other side of the door to motivate people to go through such a bother?


And any adventurers worth their salt simply dismantle the walls in order to loot and sell the door...

I was not in the game but a DM had something like this. On the other side of the door was an impaled cleric of a high level in agony unable to die until the door was opened. The hideous evil the door held in offered the deal let me torture you for all eternity and I will be happy not to reek evil on the plane.

Dying words of cleric you are now responsible for returning this evil to this place and end the threat.

[Jgosse]

A dimensional door to a pocket dimension takes care of that. Then the anti-magic field will prevent the entry through the dimensional door. You can do whatever you like with the pocket dimension still.
Perfect thanks.

[Finlam]

It's a little late, but this is how I would do it:

Step 1: The Setup

Tell each player that legends/rumors/the bartender/whatever you want to start with have hinted that there is X behind the door where X is something relevant to their backstory that the character would like.

As an example, we have a player who only plays Wizards obsessed with powerful magic, tell him that he once eavesdropped on a hushed conversation between two very powerful academy mages who were certain that there is powerful and forbidden magic behind the door; neither mage could agree on what the power might be.

Step 2: The Questing

If this is a hub style campaign, each key should take the players to a new and interesting location with new and interesting NPCs (and the occasional traveller, villain, or organization that is encountered throughout). While retrieving the keys, they should start gathering subtle hints as to the true purpose of the door.

For example:
One key is buried in the searing deserts in a tomb, deep underneath a pyramid. Traveling there will be perilous as the desert sand is scorching hot and the eternal drought has made the monstrous locust swarms eager to devour anything that takes to air. The tomb is the final resting place of the once great king and necromancer Amok Trevar the Keeper of the Dead. Should the PCs successfully pass all the traps and undead horrors that fill his tomb, they will find the key clutched tightly in his still mummified hand.

Writings on his golden sarcophagas reveal that Amok was deeply in love with his first wife who died young of a rare, magical plague that prevented her resurrection. He spent his entire life and fortune pursuing the necromantic arts so that he may one day be re-united with her.

etc...

Step 3: The Unlocking of the Door

When at last the PC's have managed to defeat all the locks, it is time for the grand reveal. Talk this point up to build tension, then hit them hard with anti-climax.

For example:
"Using the keys you have found and your incredible lock picking skills you work your way through the locks one by one. As you progress you realize you are achieving what no one before you has been able to do, colleges of mages, guilds of thieves, an entire dwarven company have all failed, but you have successfully beaten the door. As the last lock opens, there is a crack of thunder and a great rumbling sound fills the air as the earth begins to shake around you. After a moment, the rumbling subsides and a small hole opens in the door to reveal a single ornate, silver dagger."


Step 4: The Truth of the Door

The PC's will be puzzled and confused that their door is not actually a door at all... or is it?

If you've been dropping hints correctly and they've picked up at least 3 or 4 of the keys they should be able to realize that it is actually the door to the afterlife and the deific realms beyond. If you haven't dropped enough hints, you need to have established a secret order of something or other or a profound library where the PCs may go (quickly) to research answers.

By plunging the dagger into their chest a PC can enter a state similar to astral projection and pass through the door to any deific realm to meet any person who has died or any specific being on another plane of existence, even a god. They may ask 3 questions of any one being they choose and that being must answer fully and truthfully, but a being may only be chosen once. There is no limit to how often this ability may be used, but a single creature cannot use this ability more than once per 24 hours.

Lastly, the dagger may be used to bring any being from the afterlife or a deific realm to the material realm, even against their will. If the being was dead they are now returned to life in their prime as though true resurrection had been cast on them. Any being summoned in this way must obey the summoner for 24 hours after which it is free to do as it chooses. Using the dagger in this way destroys it and it may not be restored, not even by a wish spell.

As a bonus, if you want more after-the-door content, you can allow the opening of the door to cause beings from other realms and the undead to begin proliferating onto the material plane until the PCs find a way to close it again.


....

That's how I would do it.