Giving disadvantage on saves consistently?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, we all remember back in the days of 3.5 how the 'save or lose' spellset was the end-all-be-all because you could reliably boost your DC's to the point where most opponents could only make their save on a nat 20.

While I don't want to go back to those days, I do want my caster to actually... oh, I dunno... land a spall once in a blue moon. So I figure that maybe giving Disadvantage on saving throws might do the trick.

Does anyone have any good strategies for doing so? I'd really like to actually land something once in a while.

[Specter]

The surest bet is Sorcerer with Heightened Spell. Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters also have options to give disadvantage at levels 10 and 9.

[Coranhann]

Level 10 Eldritch Knight ... ok, being a fighter is counter intuitive, but it's one of the most direct way of imposing disadvantage on your save.

This being said.

My experience as a DM of a level 5 party : My mobs have something like ... 40/35% chance of succeeding (DC = 8 + 3 + 4/5 : DC 15/16 for my 2 spell casters against D20+2 in most cases). That's not THAT high.

One thing 5th edition cut down is how effective long control spells are. They can appear to be frustrating or useless (my bard player can't stop complaining about it), but its SO efficient when it works, that I find it to be nicely balanced.

Edit: And of course I'm beaten to the punch about EK by Specter

[nickl_2000]

Instrument of the Bards causes all charm saves to be at disadvantage

[MaxWilson]

Having a Wild Sorcerer in your party with Bend Luck is sort of like receiving +2 to all of your spell save DCs--any enemy who barely beats a save can suffer a Bend Luck to reduce his roll. (That is, if you know or have a good guess at the enemy's modifiers so you know when he's about to barely beat the save.)

As others have mentioned, the Wild Sorc can also use Heightened Spell.

At very high levels, an Eldritch Knight/Wizard could use Eldritch Strike + Bestow Curse to impose disadvantage on further saves for a particular attribute. I doubt that would often be cost-effective though. Better to just use a spell that doesn't grant an initial save at all, like Maze, Otto's Irresistible Dance or Forcecage/Wall of Force.

[MrMcBobb]

Lore Bards can use their bardic inspiration for Cutting Words to reduce an enemies save. Doesn't impose disadvantage but being able to reduce their save by 1dX isn't to be sniffed at. They can use it for their allies spells as well so if your wizard has something that really, really has to land you can throw cutting words in there (but it uses your reaction)

[Naanomi]

Lore Bards can use their bardic inspiration for Cutting Words to reduce an enemies save. Doesn't impose disadvantage but being able to reduce their save by 1dX isn't to be sniffed at. They can use it for their allies spells as well so if your wizard has something that really, really has to land you can throw cutting words in there (but it uses your reaction)
Unfortunetly for bards, nope... ability checks, attack roles, damage rolls... no saving throws

[Dalebert]

The most consistent of the choices given is probably Heightened Spell, unless you want to be a charm-focused bard with an Instrument of the Bards. That said, I'm not very impressed with HS. It's quite expensive. In many cases (not all, before someone straw-mans me) you're better off twinning something which has a similar if not superior effect and is often cheaper. A twinned Tasha's means you're just as likely to CC one creature as with Heightened and you might get both. It obviously gets more expensive with higher level spells, of course, but it also tends to carry a bigger punch accordingly. I've twin banished and twin polymorphed and frequently gotten both of them so I didn't mind that it was one sorcery point more expensive than heightened.

Maybe I have some bias here. I just don't find Heightened to feel worth it.

[MrMcBobb]

Unfortunetly for bards, nope... ability checks, attack roles, damage rolls... no saving throws

Ah, yea. I confused the ability checks for saving throws. That's disappointing.

[Naanomi]

The most consistent of the choices given is probably Heightened Spell, unless you want to be a charm-focused bard with an Instrument of the Bards. That said, I'm not very impressed with HS. It's quite expensive. In many cases (not all, before someone straw-mans me) you're better off twinning something which has a similar if not superior effect and is often cheaper. A twinned Tasha's means you're just as likely to CC one creature as with Heightened and you might get both. It obviously gets more expensive with higher level spells, of course, but it also tends to carry a bigger punch accordingly. I've twin banished and twin polymorphed and frequently gotten both of them so I didn't mind that it was one sorcery point more expensive than heightened.

Maybe I have some bias here. I just don't find Heightened to feel worth it.
I like having both in my arsenal. I use twinned in most situations; but when the battlefield is down to you and the Demon Prince, minions already dispatched, sticking your vital debuff is still valuable

[Citan]

Okay, we all remember back in the days of 3.5 how the 'save or lose' spellset was the end-all-be-all because you could reliably boost your DC's to the point where most opponents could only make their save on a nat 20.

While I don't want to go back to those days, I do want my caster to actually... oh, I dunno... land a spall once in a blue moon. So I figure that maybe giving Disadvantage on saving throws might do the trick.

Does anyone have any good strategies for doing so? I'd really like to actually land something once in a while.
Not that many ways.
Barring UA...
Best is probably Arcane Trickster, because you impose Disadvantage without resource cost once you're hidden and he can Hide as a bonus action. But this feature comes fairly late.
Then comes Wild Magic Sorcerer: between Bend Luck and Heightened, you have a great chance to succeed on your debuff: the price is high though, so unless you spend many slots on refueling Sorcery points, you won't be able to do this more than a few times a day.
Then comes Eldricht Knight: at level 10, he imposes disadvantages on creatures he hit just before with weapon attacks: problem is action economy: until he's level 17, he can do it in one turn just once per short rest thanks to Action Surge. Otherwise it generally takes him two full turns, unless he had a chance and hit the targeted creature with an Opportunity Attack.
Then comes the Diviner Wizard: 2, then 3 per long rest, he can swap rolls.

If UA is allowed: Shadow Sorcerer, with its ludicrously OP Shadow Hound wins the contest easily. :=)

[Vaz]

1. Fighter 10; Eldritch Knight Archetype - After hitting enemy with a weapon attack, the next save it takes against a spell you have cast against it has disadvantage. No consensus or ruling I'm aware of on whether it affects previously cast spells.
2. Paladin 20; Ancients Archetype - Elder Champion ability, 1/long rest - Enemies within 10ft have disadvantage against your Paladin spells and Channel Divinity
3. Rogue 9; Arcane Trickster Archetype - Enemies have disadvantage against spells you cast while hidden from them on that turn.
4. Sorcerer 3+; Any Archetype, Heightened Spell Metamagic - Makes one target have disadvantage on one spell. Costs 3 Sorcery Points; regains on
5. Sorcerer 2; Wild Magic Random Roll 21-22; No guarantee of rolling this. And no guarantee of your DM letting you roll that often. Next spell cast within the next minute.
6. Somehow tricking the enemy into wearing Armour they aren't proficient in
7. Making them squeeze into smaller spaces; Half Movement, and Disadvantage on Dex Saves

8. Bestow Curse Spell; 3rd level, Action, Concentration, Touch Range, Wis Save; Force Disadvantage on one saving throw. No longer concentration when cast out of 5th level slot.
9. Contagion Spell; 5th level, Action, Non-Concentration, Touch Range, Up to 5 Con Saves; Force the target to take up to 5 Con Saves, one at the end of every turn. If it fails 3, choose one disease, which among other other affects can force Disadv on Wis, Str, Int, Dex, and Con.
10. Enlarge/Reduce Spell; 2nd level, Action, Concentration, 30ft Range; Halves target in size, Disadv on Str Saves
11. Otto's Irresistible Dance Spell; 6th level, Action, Concentration, 30ft Range, Partial Wis Save; Target has no save unless it takes Action to make a Wis Save to regain Control. Force Disadv on Dex Saves while dancing.
12. Shatter Spell; 2nd level, Action, Non-Concentration, 60ft Range; 10ft Radius Bubble, Con Save; Deals Damage, increasing as levels go up. Stone/Crystalline/Metallic Creatures have Disadv on Save
13. Sunbeam Spell; 6th level, Action, Concentration, 60ft Range, 5ft Wide Line, Con Save; Deals Damage. Undead and Ooze have disadvantage vs Save.

14. Exhaustion, 3 Levels; If you can find a way to force Exhaustion on something, They have Disadvantage on Saves
15. Restrained; Restrained Creatures have Disadvantage on Dex Saves

That's about it, really.

If you've got time to prepare, you could use Mold Earth Cantrip to funnel enemies into narrow tunnels, or if you're engaging in a large warfare scenario against an enemy camp, using some Redshirt Allies to maintain a steady stream of raids to induce Exhaustion. Unfortunately, many spells which cause enemies to take Disadvantage often require a Save in the first place, and you're inevitably better casting them twice, unless they're high level spells. And even then, they're typically Concentration spells which allow subsequent Saves to shrug it off, which means that once you drop it, they lose Disadvantage, and thus cannot force Disadv on additional Concentration offensive spells, such as with Dominate.

To restrain a creature, you've got the Grappler feat (considered a trap, though), or;

1. Paladin 3; Ancients Archetype; Channel Divinity (1/short rest), Force enemy within 10ft to take a Str/Dex save or be restrained, repeat save at end of its turns to escape (but at disdav because Restrained if they use Dex). At level 20, Elder Champion forces Disadv on saves within 10ft

2. Net; Weapon. Thrown weapon, works on Large or smaller creatures. DC10 Str Check to escape as an action, or attack to deal 5pts Slash damage. Can only make one attack with it when you use.

3. Ensnaring Strike Spell, 1st level, Concentration Str Save; deal damage to restrained target hit by melee spell attack. Can take additional actions to break restrain with Str check
4. Entangle Spell, 1st level, Concentration, Str Save; 20ft square restrain. Can take additional actions to break restrain with Str check
5. Evard's Black Tentacles Spell, 4th level; Concentration, Dex Save, 20ft square restrain; take damage and restrain, can make Str or Dex check to escape
6. Flesh to Stone Spell, 6th level, Conc, 60ft Range, Con Save; Restrained on a failure, forces additional saves; if it fails 3 times, petrified
7. Imprisonment Spell, 9th level, Until Dispelled Duration, no Save Restrain, takes 1 minute to cast
8. Prismatic Spray Spell, 7th level, random roll 1/8 chance, Dex Save; restrained, must make multiple con saves to revert
9. Telekinesis Spell 5th level, 60ft range; restrain and move Huge or Smaller creature with opposed Str check using your Spellcasting ability.
10. Web Spell, 2nd level, 60ft range; 20ft Cube, no save, can make Strength checks or fire to break free

In addition, the following creatures can Restrain;
- Aberration
-- CR 5; Otyugh - Auto hit on Tentacle (+6)
-- CR 13; Beholder - Telekinetic Ray (DC16 Str), Petrification Ray (DC16 Dex)
-- CR 14; Death Tyrant - See above, DC 17)
- Beast
-- CR 1/4; Constrictor Snake - Auto Restrain on Constrict (+4) // Giant Frog - Auto Restrain on Bite (+3), can swallow Small,
-- CR 1/2; Crocodile - Auto Restrain on Bite (+4)
-- CR 1; Giant Octopus - Auto Restrain on Tentacle (+5) // Giant Spider - Auto Restrain on Web (+5) // Giant Toad - Auto Restrain on Bite (+4, can swallow Medium)
-- CR 2; Giant Constrictor Snake - +6 Constrict
-- CR 5; Giant Crocodile - +8 Bite
-- CR 8; Tyrannosaurus Rex - Auto Restrain on Bite (+10)
- Celestial
-- CR 4; Couatl - Auto Restrain on Constrict (+6)
- Dragon
-- CR 14 - Adult Copper; Lair Action
-- CR 15 - Adult Green; Lair Action
-- CR 16 - Adult Blue; Lair Action
-- CR 21 - Ancient Copper; Lair Action
-- CR 22 - Ancient Green; Lair Action
-- CR23 - Ancient Blue; Lair Action
- Elemental
-- CR 1/4 - Mud Mephit; Death Burst (DC11 on medium or smaller, within 5ft, 1 round only), Mud Breath (DC11)
-- CR 3 - Water Weird; Auto Restrain on Constrict (+5)
-- CR 5 - Water Elemental; Whelm (DC15, Large or Smaller) // Salamander - Auto Restrain on Tail (+7)
-- CR 11 - Djinni; Create Whirlwind (DC18)
- Fiend
-- CR 8; Chain Devil - Auto Restrain on Chain (+8)
-- CR 16; Marilith - Auto Restrain on Tail (+9)
- Humanoid
-- CR 1/4; Kuo-Toa - Net (+3)
-- CR 2; Lizardfolk Shaman - Bite in Crocodile Form
- Monstrosity
-- CR 1/2; Cockatrice - Bite (DC11 Con to resist)
-- CR 2; Ettercap - Auto hit on Web (+4)
-- CR 3; Basilisk - Petrifying Gaze (DC12 Con) // Type 3 Yuan-ti Malison - Auto Restrain on Constrict (+5)
-- CR 5; Gorgon - Petrifying Gas (DC13 Con) // Roper - Auto Restrain on Tendril (+7)
-- CR 6; Medusa - Petrifying Gaze (DC14 Con)
-- CR 7; Yuan-ti Abomination - Auto Restrain on Constrict (+7)
-- CR 11; Behir - Auto Restrain on Constrict (+10), can Swallow // Remorhaz - Auto Restrain on Bite (+11), can Swallow // Roc - Auto Restrain on Talons (+13)
-- CR 15; Purple Worm - Swallow on Bite Attack (+9, DC19 Dex)
-- CR 23; Kraken - Auto Restrain on Tentacle (+18), can Swallow
-- CR 30; Tarrasque - Auto Restrain on Grapple (+19), can Swallow
- Ooze
-- CR 2; Gelatinous Cube - Engulf (DC12 Dex)
- Plant
-- CR 5; Shambling Mound - Engulf (DC14)

That went a bit more in depth than I intended. Best thing I can think off is to have a Wizard cast a Glyph of Warding/Conjure Minor Elementals before a big fight, and summon 8 Mud Mephits, and give them all nets. The way the bounded accuracy works, they can force Medium enemies to take up to 8 Dex Checks or be restrained with the breath save, and then drop nets on other targets, despite non proficiency. And then if they drop to zero, they explode, and force restrain checks again. That's 8gp for 24+ Dex saves (208gp if you are going for Glyph of Warding to maintain Con) or have Disadvantage on Dex saves, cannot move and need to take Action to escape.

[clash]

The Bane spell subtracts 1d4 from saves on the creatures it affects. It targets cha save initially which is usually weak, is a first level spell, and lasts for 1 minute with no ongoing saves. It is a great low cost option to kill enemy saves.

[SharkForce]

target bigger groups. they won't all fail, but some will.

if you have a ~50% chance to land the spell, and you hit 6 creatures with it, odds are very much in your favour as far as making at least some of them fail the save. it does help to stack the odds further in your favour of course (plenty of advice in earlier posts for that), but ultimately, if you keep half of the orcs out of the fight, you're not doing badly.

as far as additional advice, try to figure out what your target's weakest save is (at low levels it can easily be a 3 point difference, at high levels it can be 7 or 8 points in some cases). intelligence is commonly the best to target if you can (but that's not always easy, to say the least), but often you'll have to make an educated guess (see what your DM thinks about knowledge skills as far as discovering weaknesses your target might have). large creatures often have low dex, small creatures often have low strength and sometimes low con (few things have truly horrible con saves though), and it's often not too hard to guess whether a monster would be strong-willed or charismatic, in any event.

you can also look for spells that don't allow saves or which still do something if the target saves, or which can force repeat saves; sunbeam lets you try to blind people each round, wall of force just lets you block off an area with no save to be on the side of the wall the targets would like, plant growth creates an area of double-difficult terrain, fog cloud blocks vision with no save to avoid it, web can force repeated saves if you can force enemies back into it (or keep them there in the first place), and so on.

[Specter]

But if you want some really impressive save disadvantage, make an Arcane Trickster an get to level 13. An Hypnotic Pattern where all foes in its area save with disadvantage is massive.

[Dalebert]

The Bane spell subtracts 1d4 from saves on the creatures it affects. It targets cha save initially which is usually weak, is a first level spell, and lasts for 1 minute with no ongoing saves. It is a great low cost option to kill enemy saves.

True, but it's concentration and most of the things you want to land that have a save will also be concentration. You'd probably want someone else to cast it for you. Get an imp familiar and put extra Bane's in a Ring of Spell Storing it so it can cast right before you do.