Need help building a optimized melee character.

[Allitra]

Intro: So, I have no idea how to build fighter-style characters and I need help. I know it's impossible to keep in pace with Tier-1 classes but I'd like to at least keep relatively close/not useless or outdated.
Campaign: For a upcoming campaign a friend is running. There aren't any details yet, but we've talked and all builds are on the table.
Character Idea: Trained by a retired mercenary/adventurer, she set her goal to become a renowned adventurer and self-proclaimed knight. Aiming to vanquish evil, subdue dragons, attain greatness and wealth that she never had before.
Play style Idea: Heavy armor use. Alternating sword-and-board (tower shield) and pole-arm/two-handed.
Races: Probably going to go with human for the feat. I also really like the aesthetic of a ordinary human against inhuman odds, but I'm open to other suggestions.
Templates: LA buy-off is allowed, are there any templates worth taking to improve 'martial prowess.'
Class build: I honestly have no idea where to begin with this. I've read that going full fighter is a terrible idea, and that most builds just dip 2 level into fighter. I've read that crusader is a decent melee class to go with. I'm not looking for barbarian builds and I find it hard to 'dip' into the class when the main point of this character is intending to be skill and training over poor anger management. I don't doubt the pros to barbarian dips, but I'd prefer to avoid it. The dragonfire adept looks interesting (<3 dragons are life <3) but not completely the aim for the character. Cleric is a big fat maybe because I don't know enough about beyond 'buffer/support/control' and necromancer builds, and the guides I've seen get way into the spellcasting 'tier-1' zone.
Prestige Classes: I can't find any that really help the melee builds. When I look for suggestion for melee build PrCs all I find is other base class suggestions. Are there any prestige classes that actually help increase the 'tier' of a melee build or are they all lackluster.
Feats: There are so many feats, and clearly there are plenty that are better than others but there are still so many! I'm utterly lost on feats.

[Anthrowhale]

A melee pure fighter is tough at high levels. Would you consider ranged instead?

[Allitra]

A melee pure fighter is tough at high levels. Would you consider ranged instead?

I would prefer melee for mental image/fluff but I'm also open to ranged build help! Though, I 'd prefer not to play a hulking hurler.

[ViperMagnum357]

First: decide if you want an initiator from Tome of Battle. If yes, Crusader works fine and you should focus on your Initiator level, which means taking classes almost exclusively from TOB.

Second: If no, heavy armor precludes 'Skillful' PRCs with precision damage and Barbarian/Berserker/other 'Rage' classes. That leaves you with TWF and Tripper builds. You can combine the two using Spinning Swords from Eberron, with an EWP.

Third: Depending on what is available, Half-Minotaur and Feral are good templates if you can tank the Int hit. If you are not locked into a race, Lesser Thri-Kreen doubles your available manufactured weapons for a reasonable price.

[Anthrowhale]

I would prefer melee for mental image/fluff but I'm also open to ranged build help! Though, I 'd prefer not to play a hulking hurler.

A Dark Whispergnome Ranger 6/Order of the Bow Initiate 4/Cragtop Archer 4/Ranger 4 maximizing Hide/Move Silently/Spot/Listen using a Bow can be exceedingly difficult to detect with the right feats (Darkstalker) and equipment. Maximize dexterity and consider the Dead Eye feat. With a good bow (many recommend Hank's Energy Bow), it puts out decent damage amongst most enemies.

[flappeercraft]

I would go for a Silverbrow Human Crusader and invest in mostly constitution boosting items

[TotallyNotEvil]

Less cheesy than Half-Minotaur and Feral, there is also Mineral Warrior.

Really, Crusader 20 or Warblade 20 is a perfectly fine build.

[Goaty14]

Deepwood Sniper (Masters of the Wild) is especially good for long range
Cragtop Archer is mainly for increasing range, if your DM likes to start encounters with the enemy directly in front of you; don't take it.
Strength-Based Bow Builds are better than Dex, especially if you can get uncommon items. (+10 Masterwork Greatbows +1 [Magic] are hard to come by)

You are right; Melee PrCs are hard to come by, because they often try to do something other than hit stuff.

Make sure somebody else at the table is playing a melee build if you go ranged; because, as the PHB points out, you'll probably be pulled in if you are the only beatstick class.

Deepstone Sentinel (ToB) sticks out for some reason, but you have to be dwarf

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter is fine for more than two levels, but you'll need to be large size or have powerful build. Half-Minotaur from Dragon 313 is way too good for its +1 LA, and it can't be applied to a Human (since that makes a regular Minotaur). If that's not available, Half-Ogre in Races of Destiny is probably the best choice at +2 LA. A variant Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) based on a Goristro gets a size increase, but that's +4 LA so it can't be bought off until level 30, unless you can gradually gain it (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) and buy it off every three levels. If all else fails, Enlarge Person + Permanency can work, but a single Dispel or Disjunction and you're permanently nerfed until you can get those back. You'll need 15+ Cha and 13+ Int, plus a decent Dex for Combat Reflexes.

Go Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1 for your build, that allows you to take Weapon Supremacy (PH2) at 20th level. The mercenary who trained you was an enforcer for the Zhentarim (or equivalent organization for the current setting) until he decided to not be a badguy any more and took up mercenary work. Use the Zhentarim Soldier (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels, the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape, use the free Dead Levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) class features, and consider trading Ride for Tumble as a class skill (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) if you won't be slowed down by armor (Dwarf or Earth Dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfEarth) with Half-Minotaur or similar).

Feats must include: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knock Back (RoS), Imperious Command (DotU), and Combat Reflexes (can be from a Warblade bonus feat). Seriously consider Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), possibly also Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain in that case. If not interested in tripping (which still works fine, you'll only have enough feats as a Human with two flaws) or using a Spiked Chain, seriously consider Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer (MMIV, 1d12 medium, 19-20/x4 base crit). Also include (Greater) Weapon Focus/Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery, and Weapon Supremacy as you're able to get them, but they're not high on your list of priorities as long as you can have them all by 20th. You'll get 7th level Warblade maneuvers/stances, which should absolutely include Iron Heart Surge.

Get the Never Outnumbered skill trick, along with any Balance or Tumble skill tricks that look interesting (if you're able to use Tumble). If you go Half-Orc (or Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) with a half-race template) you can get Menacing Demeanor via the Otyugh Hole in CS. If not, you can still use the Otyugh Hole to get Iron Will without spending a feat on it. Consider taking Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) and investing every skill rank you can into it to put a bonus on Intimidate up to your number of ranks, which should be max ranks for your character level. Zhentarim Fighter 9 allows you to Intimidate as a swift action, Imperious Command makes an affected opponent cower for a round and be shaken on the following round, Never Outnumbered allows you to affect every opponent within ten feet of you with that once per encounter. Get Fearsome armor from Drow of the Underdark (which is a more recent version than MIC) and you can also Intimidate as a move action and still get to make an attack or initiate a martial maneuver, or just use Intimidate a third time in the same round. Don't forget about size bonuses to intimidate as well.

This character's capabilities should be fairly obvious: Power Attack for a bit, when you hit use Knock Back to knock them into a wall or other solid obstacle, Dungeoncrasher adds an additional 8d6+Str+Str+Str damage. Attacks of opportunity can also do that, as long as you're still Power Attacking. Those hits can also knock them prone if you have Knock-Down, so if an opponent tries to move up and provokes an AoO, you knock them away and knock them prone, so they have to stand up from prone and move up again, wasting an entire round. Then there's the Intimidate tricks, which are extremely good for crowd controlling one or more opponents every round with Imperious Command.

Get all of the Necessary Magic Item effects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items), if you get flight with good maneuverability or better you can fly above them and use Knock Back to bull rush them into the ground to activate Dungeoncrasher. Iron Heart Surge is amazing for just saying, "No." to things, like an Antimagic Field or nearly any inconvenient or otherwise undispellable effect. As long as you get the items you need to ensure you'll be able to act unhindered every round, you should be able to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.

[Dagroth]

Going to second the Crusader idea.. heavy armor, sword & board, two-handed weapons, good at battlefield control...

A quick Cleric dip (focusing on self/party buffs) and a trip into Ruby Knight Vindicator is a good plan. If you can convince the DM to let you step away from being a Wee Jas Cleric, then getting the Undeath & Planning Domains sets you up nicely towards DMM: Persist and all that sweetness.

Mineral Warrior is ridiculously powerful at lower levels, allowing you to all-but ignore most melee attacks that aren't crits.

[Rebel7284]

What level range do you expect the game to go to? Keeping up with Tier 1s at level 12 vs. level 17 vs. Epic has somewhat different requirements.

You mentioned cleric, so it sounds like you're okay with having some casting, as long as the main character thing is fighting.

With that in mind, I will recommend Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Pros:
- Has knight in it's name.
- Armored Stealth supports the idea of an agile-but armored character.
- Excellent melee capabilities (Maneuvers) and a good chassis combined with delayed spellcasting makes melee worth doing.
- Cleric self-buffs and utility.
- Divine Impetus is one of the best abilities in the game (action economy is good).

The usual entry is Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 10/Random dips 5

Feats include the usual Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic[Persistent Spell] to walk around with your buffs lasting all day.

You're sort of like a Paladin except not locked to Lawful Good, worshiping the most bad-ass goddess in the game, and better in every measurable way.
Basically you're batman.

[Hackulator]

Crusader is VERY strong and VERY underrated, I would 100% suggest it if you want a heavy armor knight. While its true you can't do the insane things a wizard can do, in most normal optimization games you will compete. You can do good damage and your ability to self heal makes you nigh-unkillable.

[Gruftzwerg]

I have several melee and a few melee/ranged builds for up to lvl 20 in my signature.

High AC is most times considered a weak option to optimize and thus I would rethink to rely on heavy armor (and most melee charge builds trash their AC into the negatives to begin with, so the heavy armor would just be a hindrance). But if you really want to stick to heavy armor I could suggest my Griffith build (1st of the 4 Driving Attack Builds). But I would really suggest to go for another route..


being a melee in high lvl T1/2 world:

your main duty is to save your teammates spell slots!

To do this, you should be able to solve most kind of "fights" with your insane burst. And no, control builds and tanks aren't worth it in high lvl T1/2 world. The caster could just use an AoE control spell or summon something if he needs that kind of help. No, your duty is to just 1hit as many things as possible in every single turn! If you can't do this, you are more a burden to the T1/2 casters than a help. Keep in mind that you need to compete with anything that just a summon X could have done.

You need to be a real threat to the enemy to shift their focus on you (unless you go for some kind of intimitank which I wouldn't recommend for this kind of high optimization play). And the best way for this is flashy high dmg every turn. This will force you to invest into Pounce (Barb ACF lvl 1) and Stagger (Drunken Master 2; free direction change while charging/pouncing). Than you go for any kind of charge multiplier that fits your build (leap attack, combat brute, with fly you can make dive attack for piercing/slashing weapons....).

to give some examples with my builds:

Almighty Claw of Malar:
It's a predator build. He play the preception and deception game and comes with insane high dmg every turn. A good foundation of defensive abilities to keep your ass safe rounds the build well up. He can easily stand for himself or support the needs of a group (Initiator, Scout, Stealth, Combat Power).

Beserking Meatshield (3rd Driving Attack build):
Play dirty mind games with the enemy. Buff your teammates AC , dump your own AC into the negatives and get free AoO with Karmic Strike. High Pounce dmg rounds the build well up. If you really want to play some kind of tanking build, I would suggest this kind of build. High dmg + mobilty + safety for your teammates.

Hammerdin of Moradin:
Combines melee with range and mobility. Run around, hurl your hammer through your enemies (@20 a 60ft "Line of Effect" full attack!) like Thor or make a "Quake" to force everyone in front of you to the ground (60ft Cone!, Reflex or fall Prone, usable every turn!).

Shivering Tornado of Death:
A special build compared to the others, cause not relying on charge/pounce to kill the enemies. The build focuses on the Arcane Channeling ability of the Duskblade and later Combine it with Shivering Thouch (3d6 Dex dmg). Add Whirlwind Attack + Bloodstorm Blade 2 and have an 50ft range Whirlwind. Recaster adds empower + maximize to kill almost anything on sight (23.25 Dex dmg average).

While the mentioned builds are maybe not what you where looking for from fluff/role perspective, they should give you a orientation point where to go/optimize.
As said, when T1 casters start to do their stuff (gate in Solars, do some whishes and blaa..) you need to remain useful. And imho this is best done if you can cover most of the combat stuff single-handedly while the casters can save their spells for noncombat stuff.

[Allitra]

First, thank you all for your replies and build suggestions! You're all so amazing!


A Dark Whispergnome Ranger 6/Order of the Bow Initiate 4/Cragtop Archer 4/Ranger 4 maximizing Hide/Move Silently/Spot/Listen using a Bow can be exceedingly difficult to detect with the right feats (Darkstalker) and equipment. Maximize dexterity and consider the Dead Eye feat. With a good bow (many recommend Hank's Energy Bow), it puts out decent damage amongst most enemies.
I'm still drawn to a melee build, but I'm going to research more on these because this looks like an amazing build!


What level range do you expect the game to go to? Keeping up with Tier 1s at level 12 vs. level 17 vs. Epic has somewhat different requirements.

You mentioned cleric, so it sounds like you're okay with having some casting, as long as the main character thing is fighting.

With that in mind, I will recommend Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Pros:
- Has knight in it's name.
- Armored Stealth supports the idea of an agile-but armored character.
- Excellent melee capabilities (Maneuvers) and a good chassis combined with delayed spellcasting makes melee worth doing.
- Cleric self-buffs and utility.
- Divine Impetus is one of the best abilities in the game (action economy is good).

The usual entry is Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 10/Random dips 5

Feats include the usual Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic[Persistent Spell] to walk around with your buffs lasting all day.

You're sort of like a Paladin except not locked to Lawful Good, worshiping the most bad-ass goddess in the game, and better in every measurable way.
Basically you're batman.
I honestly have no idea what level we'll be going to. Quite easily high levels if I'm not mistaken, but I doubt epic levels.
I wasn't aware of the Ruby Knight Vindicator. After looking over your build suggestion and the class itself, I found that I really like it. How does this sound?
Cleric 2/Crusader 3/RKV 10/Barbarian (lion) 2/Fighter(or warblade) 3
Extend spell, persistent spell, divine metamagic [persist spell], power attack, improved bull rush, knock back, and combat reflexes.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
(sorry I can't quote you because I can't post links/images until my post count is higher)
I... wow... I 'd like to stick to human base race, even though the Half-Minotaur advantage. I've feel that going Half-Minotaur would be a little too min-maxed.
I think I'm going to go Ruby Knight Vindicator with Crusader/Cleric base than fighter. Is it possible to add in a few dungeoncrasher/fighter levels and not go in too may different directions?
I'll definitely looking into the skill tricks, but don't they take up a feat slot?

[Vizzerdrix]

I can toss out a few random things.

Obah blessed is a template fron Dungeon magazine that can net you some nice boosts as well as an extra set of arms and free multiweapon fighting feat. You can then go sword n board n halberd all at the same time.

A good wisdom will let you use shapesand. With clever thinking that stuff can get you out of all sorts of trouble.

Full attacks are important. So is gear customization. Take a gander at Travel Domain feat and Ancestial Relic feat.

Troll blooded can get you regenertion 1. I like to pair that with the feat chain from Eberron that gets DR 5/byeshk for even more tankyness. Takes 5 feats though so not practicle without flaws.

[Rebel7284]

I honestly have no idea what level we'll be going to. Quite easily high levels if I'm not mistaken, but I doubt epic levels.
I wasn't aware of the Ruby Knight Vindicator. After looking over your build suggestion and the class itself, I found that I really like it. How does this sound?
Cleric 2/Crusader 3/RKV 10/Barbarian (lion) 2/Fighter(or warblade) 3
Extend spell, persistent spell, divine metamagic [persist spell], power attack, improved bull rush, knock back, and combat reflexes.


There are a couple if issues with that build.
- You cast as a level 10 cleric at level 20. With much of your power and flexibility still coming from spells, that doesn't do a great job of keeping up. You also stop advancing Maneuvers after level 15 (or rather re-starting with Warblade).
- You don't qualify for Knock Back, out of the box, although you can talk to the DM to let you qualify with persisted Righteous Might and be unable to use the feat if someone happens to dispel you.
- Improved Bullrush is really only good as a prerequisite to Shock Trooper.
- Basically, the build seems to be trying to do too many things and not being great at any of them.

Here are two options I would look at:
1. Higher casting: You have the best buffs (Visage Of The Deity, Greater, etc.) and access to emergency Miracle.

Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Crusader 1/RKV 7/Sacred Exorcist 1/Contemplative 1/Church Inquisitor +3/RKV +3

- Using Rebuke Dragons and then taking Sacred Exorcist to get Turn Undead back allows you to have two turning pools for more Persisted Spells and more fuel for Divine Impetus.
- Delaying taking the last levels of RKV increases your initiator level, allowing you to take higher level maneuvers (8th level maneuver at 20th level) this is the same reason Crusader gets taken at 5, total initiator level 3 allows you to take 2nd level maneuvers right off the bat.
- A couple of immunities and three extra domains is nice.
- Fix BAB dip by persisting Divine Power, Alternatively you can take regular Cleric and just be okay being a few points behind.
- You can get pounce from white raven maneuvers.

2. Higher melee
Cloistered Cleric 1/Lion Totem, City Brawler (Dr. #349 p. 92) Barbarian 1/Swordsage 2/Crusader 1/RKV 10/Master of Nine 5

Pretty much requires flaws for all the stupid prerequisites Master of 9 has, but ultimately, makes you an excellent initiator. Eternal Blade also works if you're okay with being an Elf or don't have flaws.
- Pounce without using any maneuvers
- Wisdom to AC in a Mithral Breastplate (or Halfweight Fullplate i guess).
- Double progression of Maneuvers giving you lots of in-combat flexibility and 9th level maneuvers from all the schools.


Ultimately, the version with better spells is much better, but it's not the only option.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I wasn't aware of the Ruby Knight Vindicator. After looking over your build suggestion and the class itself, I found that I really like it. How does this sound?
Cleric 2/Crusader 3/RKV 10/Barbarian (lion) 2/Fighter(or warblade) 3
Extend spell, persistent spell, divine metamagic [persist spell], power attack, improved bull rush, knock back, and combat reflexes.
Overall "eh," I'd say. Cleric* 2/Crusader 3 is a fine balanced entry, but the last 5 levels aren't doing you much good-- nothing Barbarian or Fighter give you are likely to make much difference at 15th-20th level, methinks. You'll come out with a +14 BAB, 5th level spells and 7th level maneuvers, which isn't the worst place to be... honestly, I might suggest a generic medium-BAB-full-casting class of your choice; finish up with +17 BAB, 7th level spells, and 7th level maneuvers-- a nice, balanced gish.


*Pro tip: Cloistered Cleric. You'll get +1 BAB either way, Crusader makes up for lost proficiencies, and the extra skill points and domain are more than worth the few lost hit points.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The biggest draw for Dungeoncrasher is the feat Knock Back in Races of Stone, which requires you to be large size or have powerful build. If you can't reliably accomplish that, then it's probably not worth spending the levels on it.

Skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel only cost two skill points, they're extremely easy to pick up once you meet the prerequisites.

You can still max out Intimidate, pick up Imperious Command, and get Fearsome armor to use it as a move action and still be able to attack or initiate a martial strike on the same turn. You can even get Skill Focus from the Otyugh Hole in CS.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho Dungeoncrasher ain't worth it. The dmg is even more situational than regular charge to begin with and ends with extra dmg dice that doesn't get any charge multipliers. There are tons of better ways to optimize charge than dungeoncrasher imho (valorous weapon, leap attack, combat brute, fly + piercing/slashing weapon, Spirited Charge ....). The wasted feats and the fighter lvl doesn't pay off enough.

If you want charge dmg, go for any kind of charge multiplier. And maybe get Stagger (Drunken Master 2) to charge every turn and make your dmg more reliable.