What are your thoughts on the celestial patron

[Rfkannen]

What are your it? Is it balanced?fun? How do you think it will change before publication?

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/revised-class-options

[Feuerphoenix]

I like the theme of not having an evil beeing needed to make a pact (although an angel would have to have a VERY good reason do. bargain with you). The abilities are nice (although a bit unclear. E.g. Does the lv 6 ability grant extra damage on each swing with divine favor from a paladin weapon?). But it is quite nicely balanced.

[Millstone85]

an angel would have to have a VERY good reason do. bargain with youI can definitely see an aasimar's angelic guide decide to empower them, or help them unlock their celestial heritage.

For others, well, just because it is a bargain doesn't mean it can't be in the spirit of Law and Good. An honest bargain.


Does the lv 6 ability grant extra damage on each swing with divine favor from a paladin weapon?My guess is, it doesn't. The divine favor spell doesn't deal damage to its target, which is the caster.

[Unoriginal]

although an angel would have to have a VERY good reason do. bargain with you.

"This is a way to do good" is all the reason they need.

[Feuerphoenix]

"This is a way to do good" is all the reason they need.

Why should an angel make a pact? A pact is selfish by definition, however your patron wants you to perform a task.

Also, why don't become a cleric then? Then you can Serve a god and get power also. An angel is always thinking in terms of absolute laws. So which law allows, or justifies to have your own warlock? This only makes sense, then you have to break rules/laws, and this happens, when you want to betray your master...

[Unoriginal]

Why should an angel make a pact? A pact is selfish by definition

...no? Not at all. There is nothing inherently selfish about making a pact.



Also, why don't become a cleric then? Then you can Serve a god and get power also.

Becoming a Cleric is not something you choose, it's the god who decides to grant you his power or not.


An angel is always thinking in terms of absolute laws. So which law allows, or justifies to have your own warlock?

All of them? There is no law forbidding to have warlocks.



This only makes sense, then you have to break rules/laws, and this happens, when you want to betray your master...

No, this doesn't make sense. I have no idea why you think that teaching people warlock's powers is somehow against the laws or rules, or that it's betraying an angel's master to do so. There is nothing, *nothing* about empowering warlocks that is forbidden or treacherous.

[Basement Cat]

"Many years ago I made a pact. A pact with an otherworldly being that I cannot deny, cannot forget, cannot escape. In exchange for power in the here and now the day will come when my patron--an angel--shall appear before me and demand that I fulfill my part of the bargain.

"On that day I must bake cookies for every orphan in the city!!!"

I love that anyone might see the angelic pact as inherently unlikely; why would any angel try to influence mortals? To make them better?

NAY! An angel is too hoitey toitey to condescend to try to make mortals better in any way. An angel would rather spend its existence sneering at any mortal which isn't as pure and holy as it is--which means all of them. :smallwink:

Gary Gygax frowned upon evil player characters. For him it was all about being the good guys. I think he'd approve of having an angelic patron. :smallsmile:

[strangebloke]

This is a very well established archetype in mythology.

Greek heroes often have a 'quid pro quo' relationship with their gods. 'i honor Athena, she blesses my arrows.'

Similarly, the Bible is full of people making pacts with angels. Full!! Like the whole old testament. Sure, the angel is just a messenger of the most high, but it's consistent with this imagery.

Mechanically this class looks fine. Those healing abilities are nice, for sure. This class combos nicely with inspiring leader.

[Rfkannen]

The one thing I don't get mechanically is getting sacred flame, I mean you have eldritch blast which is just plain better, why would you ever use the inferior one?

[rbstr]

I like it a lot. Good flavor and mechanics to support it. The extended spell list's concept is a fun mix of healing/blasting.

I have two things about it I think they should fix:
#1 I think it should have expanded Mystic Arcana options or the Warlock list itself should simply be expanded. As it is their list has stuff that fits the three PhB 'locks but not really the others. Like they should be able to get Conjure Celestial and some of the higher level healing or radiant/fire stuff.

#2 - The bigger thing: the level 6 feature is sort of wasted. It's just not that useful. You only get Cha+ on one target. So it doesn't make Sacred Flame competitive with EB and barely adds anything to a Burning hands or Flame strike. It doesn't need to be more damage even, really, just something more useful.

EDIT: Also, the class combos poorly with inspiring leader. You can only have one source of THP at a time. Its either that or your level 10 feature, not both. So, sure Inspiring Leader would give teamates more thp but it's not any better than it would be on any other charisma class.

[KorvinStarmast]

The one thing I don't get mechanically is getting sacred flame, I mean you have eldritch blast which is just plain better, why would you ever use the inferior one?
You don't have to select eldritch blast.
Radiant damage does interesting things to some undead monsters.
Radiant damage is rarely resisted.
And you can have both, using whichever one suits your fancy when you target something.
Plus
Sacred Flame is based on a dex save. If you have slow on someone, they had disadvantage on the save. Eldritch blast is based on a "to hit."
Zombies.
Sacred flame puts a zombie down for good.

I'd love to see some warlocks with the Celestial patron. I hope this one makes it into the book in November.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

I can't speak for the mechanical side, but I love the fluff on this one. There's this Scarred Lands sourcebook, I can't remember which one, where a bit of flavor text talks bout a man who sells his soul for magical powers... and then uses those powers to do great good for the world. One his deathbed, his "contractor" approaches him, and he makes a dying confession that he knew what he did has damned his soul, but he needed to make that choice so that he could help other people, and he doesn't regret it. The angel promptly chuckles and gently chides him that it would be a dark world indeed if only fiends were allowed to give out powers in such a manner, before carrying his soul off to the heavens.

In that book, because this was a 3rd edition setting, he was a sorcerer. But that kind of story makes so much more sense as a Warlock. Any chance to replicate a backstory like that in my settings is one I can applaud.

[Naanomi]

Traditionally Chaotic Good Outsiders are more prone to pact making than Archons and Angels; (so Devas and Eladrin)... Guardinals sometimes 'train' mortals as well

[Millstone85]

There's this Scarred Lands sourcebook, I can't remember which one, where a bit of flavor text talks bout a man who sells his soul for magical powers... and then uses those powers to do great good for the world. One his deathbed, his "contractor" approaches him, and he makes a dying confession that he knew what he did has damned his soul, but he needed to make that choice so that he could help other people, and he doesn't regret it. The angel promptly chuckles and gently chides him that it would be a dark world indeed if only fiends were allowed to give out powers in such a manner, before carrying his soul off to the heavens.This is such a beautiful story that I feel bad for being nitpicky. But selling your soul is at the very least equal to selling yourself in slavery, and an angel should definitely not accept to make such a purchase. Of course, the man doesn't actually belong to the angel now, and it was all a test. Still, bad example of a celestial contract.

I think it would be more along the line of "You are the right mortal to take care of this problem over there, and there is hope for your soul yet, so here is power you can keep afterward".

[Temperjoke]

It could also be a case where the deity doesn't have enough of a presence on a world to answer prayers, but can more directly empower a single individual. It also doesn't have to be a god or an angel, after all Archfey are powerful, but not gods, and they can empower mortals with a Pact. It could be something like a bargain struck with a unicorn or a ki-rin, for example.

[Mongobear]

I could see a celestial doing this as a way to prevent fiends from gaining a new follower

Like, instead of allowing a fiend to gain one more follower, the celestial steps in and offers power to keep the fiend under control.

[Naanomi]

Lots of Celestials (Angels, Archons, Guardinals, Eladrin, and Deva) are totally separate from the service of the Gods; so would have reason to act with agents of their own

[Maxilian]

Why should an angel make a pact? A pact is selfish by definition, however your patron wants you to perform a task.

Also, why don't become a cleric then? Then you can Serve a god and get power also. An angel is always thinking in terms of absolute laws. So which law allows, or justifies to have your own warlock? This only makes sense, then you have to break rules/laws, and this happens, when you want to betray your master...

Maybe a God or Angel of a long forgotten religion? Reason why there is no church or temples of such creature.

[Easy_Lee]

If warlocks can bargain with evil entities, they should also be able to bargain with good entities. I see no problem with it.

The concept of bargaining is closer to many classic religious beliefs than clerics, favored souls, or the paladins of the past (before they were changed to be self-sustaining, powered by their own vow and not a diety). Warlocks embody the concept Sacrifice: give something up in exchange for a boon. The warlock sacrifices some of his free will to the patron in exchange for power.

That's more religiously sound (if that's a thing) than being blessed as a chosen (favored soul) or turning your whole life over to your diety (cleric). Nearly every religion in history has had the concept of sacrifice. Humankind are the only animals to have discovered the future -- give up something you want now that you might gain something in the future. That's what sacrifice is all about, and the warlock is all about sacrifice.

[Millstone85]

Lots of Celestials (Angels, Archons, Guardinals, Eladrin, and Deva) are totally separate from the service of the Gods; so would have reason to act with agents of their ownWith 5e lore, we have...

* angels (devas, planetars & solars): LG. CR 10, 16 & 21. They "are formed from the astral essence of benevolent gods and are thus divine beings of great power and foresight. Angels act out the will of their gods with tireless devotion. Even chaotic good deities command lawful good angels, knowing that the angels' dedication to order best allows them to fulfill divine commands. [...] When an angel is sent to aid mortals, it is sent not to serve but to command" (MM p15). So they are servants of the gods in this edition, but they are also the type to have their own servants among mortals. Solars are mentioned in the UA as possible patrons, and VGtM says that an aasimar's angelic guide is usually a deva.

* couatls: LG. CR 4. They "were created as guardians and caretakers by a benevolent god not worshiped since the dawn of time, and which is forgotten now by all but the couatls themselves. Most of the divine mandates given to these beings are long since fulfilled or failed. However, a number of couatls still watch over ancient power, await fulfillment of prophecy, or safeguard the heirs of creatures they once guided and protected. Regardless of a couatl's task, it prefers to remain hidden, revealing itself only as a last resort" (MM p43). If unicorns can be patrons (see below), then maybe some couatls can too, and they sound great!

* empyreans: CG. CR 23. They "are the celestial children of the gods of the Upper Planes" (MM p130). Mentioned in the UA as possible patrons, probably for the player who wants not-quite-a-god for their not-quite-a-cleric.

* pegasi: CG. CR 2. They "trace their origins to the Olympian Glades of Arborea, where they soar through the skies of that plane and serve as faithful mounts to the Seldarine, the pantheon of elven gods. These gods have been known to send pegasi to the Material Plane to aid those in need" (MM p250). Cool but not patron material.

* unicorns & ki-rins: LG. CR 5 & 12. "Good deities placed unicorns on the Material Plane to ward away evil and preserve and protect sacred places. Most unicorns protect a bounded realm such as an enchanted forest. However, the gods sometimes send a unicorn to guard sacred artifacts or protect specific creatures" (MM 293). "In the Outer Planes, ki-rins in service to benevolent deities take a direct role in the eternal struggle between good and evil. In the mortal world, a ki-rin is celebrated far and wide as a harbinger of destiny, a guardian of the sacred, and a counterbalance to the forces of evil. [...] Many who seek a ki-rin's guidance end up pledging service to the creature. They study as monks under its tutelage and serve as its agents in the world" (VGtM p163-164). Both are mentioned in the UA as possible patrons.

[Naanomi]

With 5e Lore...
If we want to limit ourselves to currently statted out monsters; it is mentioned in the DMG that Elves born in Arboria are Celestials instead of humanoids; so may also be a potential patron

[Millstone85]

If we want to limit ourselves to currently statted out monsters; it is mentioned in the DMG that Elves born in Arboria are Celestials instead of humanoids; so may also be a potential patronIt was more about the retcon to angels and devas. And then I did the full current list of celestials, which is quite short.

Yeah, elves born in Arborea have the celestial type, as do dwarves born in Arcadia. But, like pegasi, most probably aren't powerful enough. There might be an interesting twist to put on that, though.

[Naanomi]

I could envision a high level 'celestial elf' taking on a 'mortal elf' apprentice...

Looking at that list I kind of want to try a Yuan-Ti Pureblood dedicated to a Couatl

[Millstone85]

I could envision a high level 'celestial elf' taking on a 'mortal elf' apprentice...Speaking of elves, and of another celestial retcon, core books alone now have:
* dark elves (drow)
* wood elves
* high elves
* Feywild elves (eladrin)
* celestial elves

And according to SCAG, which has even more elves, the island of Evermeet was planeshifted from Arborea to the Material and then the Feywild, so I guess high, fey and celestial elves had some interesting discussions.


Looking at that list I kind of want to try a Yuan-Ti Pureblood dedicated to a CouatlThere sure is a story there.

[Naanomi]

Speaking of elves, and of another celestial retcon, core books alone now have:
* dark elves (drow)
* wood elves
* high elves
* Feywild elves (eladrin)
* celestial elves

And half-aquatic elves in SCAG (implying real aquatic elves)

Incidentally, the co-opting of the Chaotic Good outsiders into a type of Elf was one of the things I hated most about 4e, and sad to see it carried into 5e

[Millstone85]

Incidentally, the co-opting of the Chaotic Good outsiders into a type of Elf was one of the things I hated most about 4e, and sad to see it carried into 5eI wouldn't even say it was properly carried.

4e had a simplified alignment system that didn't include Chaotic Good, and no plane of Arborea. So it made sense that eladrin as celestials wouldn't be in that edition.

4e also had elves, eladrin and drow, a.k.a. wood elves, high elves and dark elves. See, they just wanted a way to avoid saying "X elf", no matter which of the three races you were talking about.

So now, in 5e, where CG Arborea is back and high elves are just high elves... Why make eladrin a separate kind of elves? I still don't get it.

[Matrix_Walker]

The Celestial is certainly balanced better than the Undying Light patron... and being connected to a celestial being is more in tune with a Warlock than simply tapping into the power of light on your own...

So, it's all and all a big improvement for the game.

Awwww shucks... I really liked it being OP and beholden to no one.

[Arial Black]

The Celestial is certainly balanced better than the Undying Light patron... and being connected to a celestial being is more in tune with a Warlock than simply tapping into the power of light on your own...

So, it's all and all a big improvement for the game.

Awwww shucks... I really liked it being OP and beholden to no one.

I'm of the opposite opinion.

My current PC is a Scourge Aasimar berserker barbarian 5/Undying Light warlock 1. The concept is of a civilised noble warrior with....anger management issues. The first time he used his Consumptive Radiance ability (which, thematically, goes really well with Frenzy) it created a connection between him and the positive material plane (where all the light comes from). This led to taking a level of Undying Light warlock.

So the theme of this PC is a burning fury that is difficult to tame, and is all about DPR, offence over defence, hurting the enemy without regard for his own well-being. The Undying Light 1st level ability that lets you add your Cha bonus to the fire/radiant damage dealt by any spell he casts fit that theme perfectly, in both fluff and crunch.

Now, they changed it. Undying Light no longer exists as a warlock patron. Now, there is a Celestial patron instead.

The DM wants me to change my PC accordingly. We have yet to nail down the details.

I get it: the ability to add Cha to damage was too strong, especially at 1st level and the problem of one level warlock dips. I don't blame the DM for wanting to stop using the out-of-date UA Undying Light material.

So, it's simple, right? I just change my patron from Undying Light to Celestial, right? The DM likes my established fluff re: being Touched By The Light. So do I.

The problem is that the new Celestial patron simply does not do the job. There is no way I'd've chosen the Celestial patron for this PC, since it fails on both the fluff and crunch levels!

It fails on the fluff level because the Undying Light patron was specifically not about any single being, but to the positive plane itself; Touched By The Light. But the Celestial patron does away with that; it's now just a pact with a single celestial. Nothing wrong with that concept in and of itself, but it is a different concept than the one we both liked.

It fails on the crunch level because the whole idea, mechanically, for this PC is all about angelic fury and damaging enemies without regard for his own safety, and the +Cha to damage supported that. But now, that (admittedly overpowered) ability has been replaced by....2d6 of healing...per day. WTF? Seven points of healing? Per day? How does that support my 'Avenging Angel' model?

Even if I ever got six levels to gain the +Cha to damage ability (I won't in SKT because I'd have to be 11th level minimum with this PC), it's been re-worded into uselessness, such that even the single instance of increased damage only applies if the creature damaged was the target of the spell, rather than just taking damage from a spell you cast.

So I'm very disappointed with the execution of the Celestial patron, and it's messing with my current PC!

[Millstone85]

I don't blame the DM for wanting to stop using the out-of-date UA Undying Light material.I would. With UA being the work in progress it is, including whole concepts getting ditched or started over, it doesn't seem reasonable at all to expect a character in your campaign to follow the updates. You and your DM agreed to use the Undying Light, as in a specific PDF file that was released on a certain date.

[Matrix_Walker]

I'm of the opposite opinion.

...

So I'm very disappointed with the execution of the Celestial patron, and it's messing with my current PC!

No, I think we agree... At level 1 the CHA bonus might be a little too much, but we hate to see it go... And the new version is of little to no use to us.

I am currently running a Favored Soul (War Domain, the original Modifying Classes version) multi-classed with (you guessed it!) a single level of Undying Light Warlock. All those delicious Radiant damage spells are a dream. Luckily, my GM is not asking me to make any changes.

[Matrix_Walker]

I would. With UA being the work in progress it is, including whole concepts getting ditched or started over, it doesn't seem reasonable at all to expect a character in your campaign to follow the updates. You and your DM agreed to use the Undying Light, as in a specific PDF file that was released on a certain date.

Agreed...

If my GM decides the build it too much, I will likely just build a new character

[rbstr]

So I'm very disappointed with the execution of the Celestial patron, and it's messing with my current PC!

I mean, it's this the DM's problem? Celestial isn't Undying Light. You guys agreed on using Undying Light, not Celestial.

[Submortimer]

My only issue with it is that so many of the spells and abilities available to thw warlock still deal necrotic damage, specifically Hex and life drinker. If we had the option to change that stuff to radiant, I'd be all on board.

[Temperjoke]

My only issue with it is that so many of the spells and abilities available to thw warlock still deal necrotic damage, specifically Hex and life drinker. If we had the option to change that stuff to radiant, I'd be all on board.

Well, casting a bright light only creates deeper shadows, after all. :P

[Bugado25]

I'm of the opposite opinion.

My current PC is a Scourge Aasimar berserker barbarian 5/Undying Light warlock 1. The concept is of a civilised noble warrior with....anger management issues. The first time he used his Consumptive Radiance ability (which, thematically, goes really well with Frenzy) it created a connection between him and the positive material plane (where all the light comes from). This led to taking a level of Undying Light warlock.

So the theme of this PC is a burning fury that is difficult to tame, and is all about DPR, offence over defence, hurting the enemy without regard for his own well-being. The Undying Light 1st level ability that lets you add your Cha bonus to the fire/radiant damage dealt by any spell he casts fit that theme perfectly, in both fluff and crunch.

Now, they changed it. Undying Light no longer exists as a warlock patron. Now, there is a Celestial patron instead.

The DM wants me to change my PC accordingly. We have yet to nail down the details.

I get it: the ability to add Cha to damage was too strong, especially at 1st level and the problem of one level warlock dips. I don't blame the DM for wanting to stop using the out-of-date UA Undying Light material.

So, it's simple, right? I just change my patron from Undying Light to Celestial, right? The DM likes my established fluff re: being Touched By The Light. So do I.

The problem is that the new Celestial patron simply does not do the job. There is no way I'd've chosen the Celestial patron for this PC, since it fails on both the fluff and crunch levels!

It fails on the fluff level because the Undying Light patron was specifically not about any single being, but to the positive plane itself; Touched By The Light. But the Celestial patron does away with that; it's now just a pact with a single celestial. Nothing wrong with that concept in and of itself, but it is a different concept than the one we both liked.

It fails on the crunch level because the whole idea, mechanically, for this PC is all about angelic fury and damaging enemies without regard for his own safety, and the +Cha to damage supported that. But now, that (admittedly overpowered) ability has been replaced by....2d6 of healing...per day. WTF? Seven points of healing? Per day? How does that support my 'Avenging Angel' model?

Even if I ever got six levels to gain the +Cha to damage ability (I won't in SKT because I'd have to be 11th level minimum with this PC), it's been re-worded into uselessness, such that even the single instance of increased damage only applies if the creature damaged was the target of the spell, rather than just taking damage from a spell you cast.

So I'm very disappointed with the execution of the Celestial patron, and it's messing with my current PC!

Did you see the zealot subclass that was released on the barbarian UA? It looks perfect for your character.

Now, about your situation, the only way you can solve it is by talking with your DM. You can't blain him for not wanting to use outdated material, but there was a complete change on the focus of the subclass with the change from Undying Light to Celestial.

It's quite likely you wouldn't even consider taking a Celestiallock Level with your barbarian taking into acount its current mechanics, and you need to try to make your DM understand that.

At least ask him to let you go back to being a full barbarian.

[Millstone85]

Also, something that bothered me with the fluff of the Undying Light was that, to me, it described a sorcerer.

Now, it is easy enough to say a draconic sorcerer made a pact with a dragon, or that a warlock of the Archfey is tapping into an ancient fey ancestry. The two fluffs are largely interchangeable.

Still, being attuned to an energy plane, that's sorcerer stuff. There is no patron or pact, just power flowing through you.

[Arial Black]

An update to my Undying Light Berserker problem.....

Yesterday we played for the first time since the Celestial revision to the Undying Light warlock patron came out. I arrived early, talked through the problems, and offered several possible solutions:-

1.) Since we both liked the original fluff but the crunch was overpowered, then re-fluff another patron's abilities from the PHB. We trust the PHB mechanics to be acceptable.

2.) Swap my one warlock level for one paladin level, and do it right away.

3.) Wait until we all hit the next milestone and gain a level, and instead of gaining one level lose my one warlock level and gain two paladin levels, while continuing to use the Undying Light stuff until then. This avoids the strange consequence of losing the ability to cast spells and then regaining it at Pal 2. Also, Pal 1 sucks.

4.) Continue using the Undying Light material for the rest of this campaign.

5.) Retire this character and make a completely new PC at the same level.

The DM was happy for either 1.) or 3.) and let me choose. I chose 1,).

Here is the re-fluffed Fiend patron, called The Archangel....

All of the abilities the patron grants (at 1st, 6th, 10th, and 14th) are completely unchanged mechanically (well, one tiny tweak); they just need a name change along with an understanding that they come from a Heavenly source, rather than a Hellish or an Abyssal source:-

1st: Dark One's Blessing/Heaven's Blessing (it's all about bolstering your life force)
6th: Dark One's Own Luck/Heaven's Fortune (god loves you!)
10th: Fiendish Resilience/Heavenly Fortitude (guardian angel)
14th: Hurl Through Hell/Hurl Through Heaven (this is the only mechanical tweak: Fiends are immune to HTHell damage, so Celestials are immune to HTHeaven).

Although the abilities were easy enough, the Expanded Spell list for The Fiend was not appropriate, and nor was the new Celestial list because it focuses on healing rather than smiting evil. So I made a new list. Nine out of ten of these spells are on the paladin list, fire shield being the exception, but that was on the Undying Light list AND the Fiend list.

Archangel Expanded Spells:-

Spell Level..Spells
.....1st........cure wounds, divine favour
.....2nd.......aid, find steed
.....3rd.......aura of vitality, elemental weapon
.....4th.......death ward, fire shield
.....5th.......circle of power, destructive wave

I won't get past 5th level warlock in SKT (Bar 5/War 5 tops, although I may take fewer warlock levels and choose more barbarian levels; I'll see how it goes), but I felt is was important to present a complete patron as if for a 20th level warlock.

So, a happy ending and a reasonable DM. :smallsmile:

[Mcdjangali]

My only issue with it is that so many of the spells and abilities available to thw warlock still deal necrotic damage, specifically Hex and life drinker. If we had the option to change that stuff to radiant, I'd be all on board.

We Homebrewed a feat for this.

Favored Energy
Choose one energy type. It is now considered your favored energy. When rolling damage, Abilities that deal the chosen energy's damage gain a bonus equal to d4.

Choose three energy types. Any spell or effect with the chosen energy types changes to your favored element.




Works similarly to the Bishop Gloves magic item from Middlefinger of vecna.

[Max_Killjoy]

Since capital-letter "Good" and "Evil" in D&D settings are just sorting boxes for the most part, I see no problem with this.