Natural attacks

[Zombimode]

Have the rules for natural attacks changed in Pathfinder (from 3.5)?

The eagle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/birds/eagle/) statblock states:

Melee 2 talons +3 (1d4), bite +3 (1d4)

A line like this doesn't make sense from a 3.5 standpoint: natural attacks are connected either by an "and" or an "or" junctor. A comma could mean anything.

If its "and", what is the primary attack? Or are primary/secondary attacks not a thing in pathfinder anymore?

If its "or" - well, the line is clear then, I suppose, but rather disappointing. So Eagles can't claw/claw/bite for some reason?

[Necroticplague]

Have the rules for natural attacks changed in Pathfinder (from 3.5)?Not really.


The eagle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/birds/eagle/) statblock states:


A line like this doesn't make sense from a 3.5 standpoint: natural attacks are connected either by an "and" or an "or" junctor. A comma could mean anything. No, it means one thing: It has those natural attacks. It has 2 claws, and a bite. How exactly you have it attack is at your discretion.


If its "and", what is the primary attack? Or are primary/secondary attacks not a thing in pathfinder anymore?Primary and secondary natural weapons are definitely still a thing. However, for monsters, it's typically pointless to list them. After all, the attack and damage are given right there in the statblock, which is the only thing primary and secondary effect. You can always reverse-engineer easily enough (in this case, they're all primary, since they lack the -5 to-hit of secondaries) if you need to (such as when buffing or advancing a monster).

[Psyren]

There was one big change. In PF, some natural attacks are always considered primary, no matter how many the creature has, unless the creature is combining them with manufactured attacks. This is in contrast to 3.5, where if multiple are listed, you would invariably end up with one (or some) being primary and all the rest secondary. If in PF you have one creature that has nothing but Primary attacks (e.g. bite, claws, gore, slam, sting etc.), they all get its full attack bonus and full Str to damage.

This rule is important because it means if you have a PF creature or character that has nothing but primary attacks, no matter how many, Multiattack is a wasted feat on them - it has no secondaries to boost.

For an example of this, compare the 3.5 Gargoyle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gargoyle.htm) (primary claws, secondary bite and gore) to the PF Gargoyle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/gargoyle) (all primary). Or the
3.5 Chimera (secondary claws) to the PF Chimera (all primaries).

Anyway, to answer your questions - PF eagles can claw/claw/bite, and all three will be primary (as noted by the fact that both attacks get the full +3 to hit and full Str bonus.)

[Tuvarkz]

Pathfinder also has standarized rules for Natural Attacks (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks), including basing primary/secondary on type and damage die per size per attack type. There are monsters that break the rules (Such as an Adamantium Golem's slam attacks dealing much more damage), but they are clearly the exception.

[Zombimode]

Thanks for the answers :smallsmile:

So things DID change. Thats good to know.

And it makes the Eagle the clear winner of SNA1 choices.

[Necroticplague]

There was one big change. In PF, some natural attacks are always considered primary, no matter how many the creature has, unless the creature is combining them with manufactured attacks. This is in contrast to 3.5, where if multiple are listed, you would invariably end up with one (or some) being primary and all the rest secondary. If in PF you have one creature that has nothing but Primary attacks (e.g. bite, claws, gore, slam, sting etc.), they all get its full attack bonus and full Str to damage.

I don't think that was an rule change, so much as a design practice thing. It's entirely possible for a 3.5 creature to have nothing but primary natural attacks, they were just rarely given that way. For example, a half goristro totemist with Phase Cloak bound to Totem would have two Primary slams and a Primary bite.

[Psyren]

I don't think that was an rule change, so much as a design practice thing. It's entirely possible for a 3.5 creature to have nothing but primary natural attacks, they were just rarely given that way. For example, a half goristro totemist with Phase Cloak bound to Totem would have two Primary slams and a Primary bite.

I do consider it a rule change because it resulted in alterations of existing monsters from their 3.5 portrayals, as I demonstrated with the gargoyle and chimera. The fact that you needed such a niche example (an incarnum character with specific binds and an obscure template) further illustrates the point; in 3.5, a monster with all primary attacks is rare, while such a situation is much more common in PF. In fact, even the lowly eagle the OP was asking about was affected by this rule change.

[Malacandra]

While we're on this, I've been having trouble finding the relevant rule that covers the following: Creatures with multiple natural attacks get to use them all only as a full attack, not as an attack action. (The wording I have been able to find isn't conclusive, but if a creature could make all of its natural attacks as an attack action, it would make pounce almost pointless.) Any hints?

eta: Pathfinder again, naturally.

[Florian]

While we're on this, I've been having trouble finding the relevant rule that covers the following: Creatures with multiple natural attacks get to use them all only as a full attack, not as an attack action. (The wording I have been able to find isn't conclusive, but if a creature could make all of its natural attacks as an attack action, it would make pounce almost pointless.) Any hints?

eta: Pathfinder again, naturally.

Glossary, definition of attack action.

[Necroticplague]

While we're on this, I've been having trouble finding the relevant rule that covers the following: Creatures with multiple natural attacks get to use them all only as a full attack, not as an attack action. (The wording I have been able to find isn't conclusive, but if a creature could make all of its natural attacks as an attack action, it would make pounce almost pointless.) Any hints?

eta: Pathfinder again, naturally.

It's under the rules for full-attack itself.

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones. In this case, the 'special reason' is having multiple natural weapons, so you need a full-attack to get your extra attacks.

The rules for a standard action attack also reiterate this

Multiple Attacks

A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full-attack action (see Full-Round Actions) in order to get more than one attack.

[Malacandra]

It's under the rules for full-attack itself.
In this case, the 'special reason' is having multiple natural weapons, so you need a full-attack to get your extra attacks.

The rules for a standard action attack also reiterate this

Thank you. I thought that was the right way to read it, although to be honest, as long as they were listing iterative attacks, double weapons and two-weapon fighting, you'd have thought they could specifically list natural weapons too. :smallsmile:

[Novawurmson]

Speaking of full attacks, that's another good 3.5-> change. Haste works with natural attacks in Pathfinder.

From haste, Pathfinder:


When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.

From haste, 3.5:


When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.