Worst capstones in your opinion

[Specter]

When I started playing 5E, I found it very nice that, compared to 3.5, they actually gave you something nice at 20th level to make up for all the effort of staying single-classed and surviving to that point.

Then I looked at the capstones, which were all great, I thought... except for Rangers. That 'OR' in the damage/to-hit was really sad.

But now I look at other much worse capstones I hadn't noticed before, namely Bard's and Monk's. These abilities, similar to Relentless (probably the worst fighter feature), rely on you wasting all your resources early on without taking a short rest so that your later threats get one die to the face. The Monk at least gets four ki points, which is something, but 1 Inspiradie... no way.

So currently that's how I rank the worst capstones:

1) Bard
2) Monk
3) Ranger

What do you think?

[Llama513]

Ranger is the worst, followed by monk, bard isn't terrible but its not nearly as good as alot of the other class caps so I would put it as third worst but not in the same category as ranger or monk

[Findulidas]

That ranking might be the same as mine. The problem with capstones however is that you basically never will use them. Its way more important to value what you get on the way. An example would be monks diamond soul which would be really amazing even as a capstone.

[Regius]

Sorcerer, just sorcerer at the point you get it it's just pitance,

[TheCrowing1432]

Paladins can be bad if your oath isnt very good.

Sorceror gets the same thing as a monk.

The signature spell of the wizard seems kinda meh unless you choose really good 3rd level spells, fly is an option.

[Naanomi]

Ranger for sure

[Hypersmith]

monk and sorcerer are real offenders. At level 20, congrats sorcerer you get two first level spellslots, or you can use metamagic a few times.

[Llama513]

The worst, even in the revised version is ranger, their capstone is awful, you get to add your Wis mod to either damage or your to hit, once a round, and only if you can attack during your turn, its just bad, and the sad thing is it is really easy for them to fix it, either make apply all the time, or have it be once a turn, and voila it is a really solid capstone

[EvilAnagram]

I think y'all are a little hard on the sorcerer. At least that capstone is replenishing a long rest resource. Over a Typical Adventuring Day (tm), that's a 40% increase in total sorcery points.

[MaxWilson]

When I started playing 5E, I found it very nice that, compared to 3.5, they actually gave you something nice at 20th level to make up for all the effort of staying single-classed and surviving to that point.

Then I looked at the capstones, which were all great, I thought... except for Rangers. That 'OR' in the damage/to-hit was really sad.

But now I look at other much worse capstones I hadn't noticed before, namely Bard's and Monk's. These abilities, similar to Relentless (probably the worst fighter feature), rely on you wasting all your resources early on without taking a short rest so that your later threats get one die to the face. The Monk at least gets four ki points, which is something, but 1 Inspiradie... no way.

So currently that's how I rank the worst capstones:

1) Bard
2) Monk
3) Ranger

What do you think?

Monk capstone is not bad IMO. It guarantees that you can always use Empty Body in any combat, for example--comparable to the Barbarian's unlimited Rages at 20th level, except you get to be invisible too.

Monk capstone is good enough that I have an 11th level Shadow Monk on the shelf for whom I am not going to multiclass Rogue 2 despite the temptation, because (1) I want the 19th level ASI, and (2) I want the monk capstone. To me that means the monk capstone is doing its job, unlike say the Paladin capstones or the Bard capstone. I would NEVER prefer a Bard 20 over a Bardlock.

[JumboWheat01]

I'd say clerics have it really bad. They get to a guarantee that they get their god's help once a week, but said feature relies on a cooperative DM. And it's once a week. At least others can keep using their capstones once a day, if not constantly.

[smcmike]

Yeah, I was gonna suggest cleric too. That one is just awkward.

[Lombra]

It does depend on the DM but if the DM understands its value (a capstone) the cleric's can be a life saver, even the fact that it could be a free extra spell may make the difference at 20th level.

[Hypersmith]

for me it meant that I would take a level delay of caster progression for cleric so I could multiclass monk 1, because then I don't have to be a cleric in armor, I can be a clergy dude. Fun for flavor, and probably gonna be used a lot more than the capstone ;P

[JellyPooga]

Cleric is pretty bad. Any ability you can only use once every seven days is so limited that it's functionally useless; it's always going to be there as that "ace in the hole" that never gets used because some worse situation might arise later. It's the "get out of jail" card that you always save for when you're sent to super-max...but with no guarantee of ever getting sent to The Hole. It's both too powerful and too limited, such that you never actually use it. It might as well not exist. At least with the 10th level version it's worth attempting relatively frequently because the odds of it going off are pretty slim and you only have to wait 7 days on a successful intervention.

[Hypersmith]

yeah, and with a 19% chance, I feel like my odds aren't even that bad. Easier than a nat 20 lol.

[Citan]

When I started playing 5E, I found it very nice that, compared to 3.5, they actually gave you something nice at 20th level to make up for all the effort of staying single-classed and surviving to that point.

Then I looked at the capstones, which were all great, I thought... except for Rangers. That 'OR' in the damage/to-hit was really sad.

But now I look at other much worse capstones I hadn't noticed before, namely Bard's and Monk's. These abilities, similar to Relentless (probably the worst fighter feature), rely on you wasting all your resources early on without taking a short rest so that your later threats get one die to the face. The Monk at least gets four ki points, which is something, but 1 Inspiradie... no way.

So currently that's how I rank the worst capstones:

1) Bard
2) Monk
3) Ranger

What do you think?
Monk among the worst???
Guys, Monk gets back 4 Ki points on INITIATIVE roll.
So it means that at level 20, a Monk can always start any and every encounter activating Empty Body (reminder: resistance to all damage except psychic, invisible, no-concentration required, 1mn long). Or get improved save rolls at least 4 times in that single encounter (and against high CR creatures, having a reroll ability for saves can really make life and death).

It could actually be in the top five (the first being obviously all the Paladin's capstones, but those are borderline cheating considering how many benefits they provide XD). Even considering the hard limitation which is having no Ki points left in the first place. Besides, its not like it forces you to waste your resources. There can be many times when you just never got a chance to take a proper short rest and you ended with depleted resources in spite of careful and smart use of them.

Agreed on Bard though. Mainly because, even if it's on an Initiative roll as well, it's basically just getting to affect only one subsequent roll in the whole oncoming encounter, which is very lackluster in comparison of all other capstones.

Agreed on Ranger too: having a flat -and small- damage or tohit bonus only once per turn, against favored enemies only, make it too small and too situational. I'd seriously ditch it anytime, unless the campaign is really filled with favored enemies (and maybe even so).

I'd put Sorcerer just after to be honest: 4 SP per short rest feels really too few to be rememberable, unless you have a DM which is very lenient or generous about chances to get short rest (in which case it may be better to muticlass Warlock anyways XD).


My actual rating for capstones.
1. (Moon) Druid: just plain broken even if there are still ways to kill you.
2. Paladins: 1mn form that brings many great things, although all are clearly not equal: Ancients is the best imo, and Devotion the most meh imo.
3. Fighters: 4th attack, all is said.
4. Barbarians: big increase to offense and defense, permanent.
5. Monks: get superior defense (or 4*Indomitable) every Initiative roll.
6. Warlocks: because it's a big increase in fuel over the day.
7. Wizards: because 2 3rd level spells per short rest opens many great combinations.
8. Cleric: ability could in fact put it in top three, if not that situational.
9. Rogue: great for very difficult ability checks in which you have Expertise, but also situational.
10. Bard: at least you can maybe save the hide of a friend in that encounter... Once.
10. Sorcerer (tie): if you are a Wild Magic Sorcerer or have Heightened Metamagic, you can at least make a reliable spell once every short rest.
12. Ranger: seriously, lame.


monk and sorcerer are real offenders. At level 20, congrats sorcerer you get two first level spellslots, or you can use metamagic a few times.
Well, obviously you regularly battle creatures with Legendary Resistances at the time. Still, there should be enough "normal" but still highly dangerous creatures to fight that would make a "pretty probable" spell extremely worth those few Sorcery Points (DC 19 + disadvantage will be hard to beat ;)).

[Rhedyn]

Easily moon druid. Infinite hit points is so good that it might as well not exist with how happy it will make the DM that HP damage just isn't an issue for you.

[SharkForce]

sorcerer isn't terrible... it's just... underwhelming. it doesn't feel like a capstone, it feels like something the sorcerer should've gotten (not necessarily at full strength) way earlier. at least you don't have to have zero resources for it to work...

that said, this is pretty much the sorcerer's story in a nutshell. they got metamagic, so they can't ever have any other big abilities.

[Cl0001]

Yeah, I was gonna suggest cleric too. That one is just awkward.

If the DM is nice, you can get some really powerful effects. In games I've been in I've seen angels get called down, the whole party get affected by a bless that uses d6s, storm of vengeance, and power word heal get cast. It can be extremely strong and can have tremendous flavor. Unfortunately I've heard of some dms who just cast lightning bolt at a guy.

[EvilAnagram]

that said, this is pretty much the sorcerer's story in a nutshell. they got metamagic, so they can't ever have any other big abilities.

...but all the sorcerers get big abilities?

Bend luck? Awesome. Permanent flight? Awesome. Boosted AC, HP, and extra damage? Awesome.

The different archetypes are defined by major features that fundamentally alter how you play.

[imanidiot]

When I started playing 5E, I found it very nice that, compared to 3.5, they actually gave you something nice at 20th level to make up for all the effort of staying single-classed and surviving to that point.

Then I looked at the capstones, which were all great, I thought... except for Rangers. That 'OR' in the damage/to-hit was really sad.

But now I look at other much worse capstones I hadn't noticed before, namely Bard's and Monk's. These abilities, similar to Relentless (probably the worst fighter feature), rely on you wasting all your resources early on without taking a short rest so that your later threats get one die to the face. The Monk at least gets four ki points, which is something, but 1 Inspiradie... no way.

So currently that's how I rank the worst capstones:

1) Bard
2) Monk
3) Ranger

What do you think?

None of them are really all that great with the exception of Druid if I'm remembering correctly afb.

[Logosloki]

I don't think any of the capstones are good. They are either flat out bad, bad for the game or delayed out of relevancy.

[TheCrowing1432]

I don't think any of the capstones are good. They are either flat out bad, bad for the game or delayed out of relevancy.

which ones are bad for the game and why

[SharkForce]

...but all the sorcerers get big abilities?

Bend luck? Awesome. Permanent flight? Awesome. Boosted AC, HP, and extra damage? Awesome.

The different archetypes are defined by major features that fundamentally alter how you play.

do they? does the fact that you don't need mage armour *really* change the sorcerer class? how about +5 damage to your "i don't care enough to spend a spell slot" cantrips, or even an "i do care enough to spend a spell slot" fireball? does changing the average damage of a fireball from 28 to 32 *really* fundamentally alter anything? even flight, which is relatively speaking up there in dragon sorcerer abilities, doesn't really fundamentally change the types of spells you're going to want. heck, you might even still need a fly spell, because it turns out being able to fly is nice, but not nearly as helpful as your entire party being able to fly. wild magic at least has something that interacts with your main class feature, but probably doesn't really fundamentally alter the class that much. your archetype has very little impact, ultimately... it isn't like fire dragon sorcerers want fireball, but wild magic sorcerers think it's a crappy spell not worth their time because of that +5 damage. nor would a fire dragon sorcerer look at a spell like mass suggestion and think it is any less valuable due to not having bend luck.

compare those to something like a wizard, where many of the 8 original archetypes all give you something that interacts with your main class feature in a major way. an illusionist is heavily incentivized to play around with illusions in a way that a necromancer simply isn't. the necromancer meanwhile is pretty strongly encouraged to use undead minions. the diviner gets a lot of value out of using divination spells, and has the ability to more or less *know* that something will or won't work in advance 2-3 times per day. an enchanter can use spells like charm person in ways nobody else can afford to use them, and gets a lot of added value out of single-target enchantment spells. not every archetype plays completely differently, but there is room for them to have abilities that make big changes in the way the class plays. i would almost never suggest using charm person unless you're a high level enchanter, and while dropping a fireball on my own team is a tough decision for most wizards, evokers can often do it safely no problem. for most of the core wizard schools, i can point to spells that i would almost never consider using on a wizard of any other type that can do very interesting things in the hands of a wizard of the right school.

sorcerer subclasses don't tend to do that. but you know what does that for sorcerers? metamagic. metamagic can completely change the way the class plays. the difference between a careful/heighten sorcerer and a twin/quicken sorcerer is likely much larger than the difference between a draconic sorcerer and a wild magic sorcerer. metamagic says a lot more about what you want your sorcerer to do than archetype.

[Naanomi]

If I had to rank them it would be...

Druid->Fighter->Barbarian (Mechanically the best and really do a great job making me feel like the 'ultimate <class> flavorwise... I'd feel glad to get them and they really make me reconsider any multiclassing in a game I thought might get to those levels)

Rogue->Paladin-> (generally useful and flavorful even at top levels)

Warlock-> (resource recovery, but more important because of the resource-tight nature of the class)

Wizard->Sorcerer->Bard->Monk-> (resource recovery; allnhave their pluses and minus in implementation and benefit. Monk loses out because they are not also getting a 7th level Spell slot)

Ranger (almost worthless at this level mechanically, on one attack and a limited set of opponents. My beastmaster was looking forward to 4 more pet HP than this...)

[Foxhound438]

The worst, even in the revised version is ranger, their capstone is awful, you get to add your Wis mod to either damage or your to hit, once a round, and only if you can attack during your turn, its just bad, and the sad thing is it is really easy for them to fix it, either make apply all the time, or have it be once a turn, and voila it is a really solid capstone

it is once a turn for revised. I'm not going to say it's the best thing ever, but having fixed-value precision attack once per round is probably better than vanilla precision attack on a sharpshooter. You do lose 2 attacks (unless you have swift quiver up), but over the course of 6 combats and 2 short rests per day, the ranger capstone can do a lot more work than superiority dice. It's honestly pretty good, just maybe a bit uninteresting.

but my vote for worst is honestly wizard. By that point you have a full slate of spell slots available to you, and unless your DM actually enforces the adventuring day at 20th level (most don't at any point) you'll have way more than enough spell slots of 3rd and higher to get through the day as is. Basically, good on paper but never actually put to use.

[Jerrykhor]

Are we looking for suggestions too? If so, on the Sorcerer's capstone - If a 20th level of any class is supposed to be the best there is, then a 20th level Sorcerer should get all of the Metamagic options. Its quite lame that they only get 4 of the 8 options at most. Metamagic is a class-defining feature, much like Wild Shape for Druids. If druids get unlimited Wild Shapes at 20, Sorcerer should get all their Metamagic too.

[SharkForce]

it is once a turn for revised. I'm not going to say it's the best thing ever, but having fixed-value precision attack once per round is probably better than vanilla precision attack on a sharpshooter. You do lose 2 attacks (unless you have swift quiver up), but over the course of 6 combats and 2 short rests per day, the ranger capstone can do a lot more work than superiority dice. It's honestly pretty good, just maybe a bit uninteresting.

but my vote for worst is honestly wizard. By that point you have a full slate of spell slots available to you, and unless your DM actually enforces the adventuring day at 20th level (most don't at any point) you'll have way more than enough spell slots of 3rd and higher to get through the day as is. Basically, good on paper but never actually put to use.

wizard is still 2 more prepared spells, and 2/rest replacing fire bolt with fireball or lightning bolt, bringing your damage for that fight to probably equivalent to the dedicated damage-dealing classes (presuming you can hit several targets), is non-trivial. or, alternately, if you think it is trivial, then you've pretty much declared several entire classes to be completely trivial. and that is only one possible use. you could instead choose (for example) clairvoyance as one of your spells, and now you can do a heck of a lot more scouting. you could have phantom steed to provide an emergency getaway vehicle for when you don't have time to ritually cast it (like when your mount dies in the middle of combat).

simply put, the wizard capstone gives you resources to throw away in situations where you otherwise would be just using cantrips because you *might* need those spell slots. it won't be needed every single adventuring day, but it's pretty powerful when it is needed.

and frankly, just getting 2 extra prepared spells is pretty solid in the first place... 25 spells is nice, but it's very easy to come up with a list of more than 25 spells you'd *like* to have prepared.

just personally, while the fighter capstone itself is pretty good... i wouldn't hesitate for even a second to multiclass out the second after i hit level 11. 20 is pretty good. 17 is quite good. 18 can be pretty good, depending on archetype. but 12 through 16 are mediocre at best. fighter 17 and 20 aren't nearly good enough to make it worth spending those class levels elsewhere, and it's pretty hard to find another class where 9 levels wouldn't get you a lot of nice things.

[MaxWilson]

it is once a turn for revised. I'm not going to say it's the best thing ever, but having fixed-value precision attack once per round is probably better than vanilla precision attack on a sharpshooter. You do lose 2 attacks (unless you have swift quiver up), but over the course of 6 combats and 2 short rests per day, the ranger capstone can do a lot more work than superiority dice. It's honestly pretty good, just maybe a bit uninteresting.

but my vote for worst is honestly wizard. By that point you have a full slate of spell slots available to you, and unless your DM actually enforces the adventuring day at 20th level (most don't at any point) you'll have way more than enough spell slots of 3rd and higher to get through the day as is. Basically, good on paper but never actually put to use.

On the other hand, wizards have tremendous pressure on their spells known, and you will benefit every day from having two extra always-prepared spells. E.g. Counterspell and Hypnotic Pattern, two spells you will never regret having prepared.

It's better than the ranger or bard capstone at any rate.

[Zalabim]

For the thread, don't discount the sorcerer capstone. It opens up a new dimension of play for the sorcerer: Building up power with downtime. They don't get contingency, guards and wards, forbiddance, sympathy/antipathy, simulacrum, animate dead, create undead, or really any kind of long-lasting spells that you cast in downtime and use later on during an adventure. With the ability regain sorcerer points on a short rest (then turn that into spell slots that last until you take a long rest), you have the option to build up more than your full assortment of spell slots with downtime.

The wizard takes a week off to prepare a ~150 skeleton army to unleash, while in that time the sorcerer builds up an extra 16 5th level slots by short resting four times a day (two normal and two while not taking a long rest). A long rest recovers more resources than 8 short rests, if you've spent them, and is the only way to get back HP, hit dice, and high level slots, but if you aren't missing any of those, short rest resource recovery lets the sorcerer instead charge their lasers.

All this is of course missing the point of playing a sorcerer at any rate. People don't really want to sit and meditate like a hermit for ten years. They want to run around slinging spellfire.


sorcerer subclasses don't tend to do that. but you know what does that for sorcerers? metamagic. metamagic can completely change the way the class plays. the difference between a careful/heighten sorcerer and a twin/quicken sorcerer is likely much larger than the difference between a draconic sorcerer and a wild magic sorcerer. metamagic says a lot more about what you want your sorcerer to do than archetype.
While I agree with pretty much the whole rant, I want to really highlight this part. Metamagic is more like the sorcerer subclass. You get it at level 3 and it changes how you play your sorcerer compared to any sorcerer that took other choices. The sorcerous origin is just how you tell its a sorcerer and not a wizard. Though that can be hard to tell if you're looking at a Wild Mage who keeps a journal, particularly in the 1st and 2nd level identity stage.

[Jerrykhor]

The wizard takes a week off to prepare a ~150 skeleton army to unleash, while in that time the sorcerer builds up an extra 16 5th level slots by short resting four times a day (two normal and two while not taking a long rest). A long rest recovers more resources than 8 short rests, if you've spent them, and is the only way to get back HP, hit dice, and high level slots, but if you aren't missing any of those, short rest resource recovery lets the sorcerer instead charge their lasers.


Sorry to burst your bubble, but that has been Errata'd out. The created spell slots vanish after a long rest.

[Zalabim]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that has been Errata'd out. The created spell slots vanish after a long rest.

Which is why the sorcerer is not taking a long rest.

[Vaz]

Warlock is one of the worst objectively, it is fantastic, extra spell slots on a spell slot starved class, but subjectively, the concept of the Warlock is flawed from the off that a feature as powerful as 'get all your spell slots back' 1/long rest is considered appropriate for a capstone.

No other class provides a straight 33% upgrade to your class features in the same way when you otherwise so heavily rely on them as a capstone. And the wizard has been doing a limited form of it.

I've played a 20th level one shot as a warlock, and it performed so poorly compared to the other classes, that in the end, we came to the conclusion its capstone should be one of its near dead level abilities, and instead, be on the power of a Paladin ability. 1 long rest, for a minute, you regain any used pact magic spell slots at the start of your turn.

[Citan]

do they? does the fact that you don't need mage armour *really* change the sorcerer class? how about +5 damage to your "i don't care enough to spend a spell slot" cantrips, or even an "i do care enough to spend a spell slot" fireball? does changing the average damage of a fireball from 28 to 32 *really* fundamentally alter anything? even flight, which is relatively speaking up there in dragon sorcerer abilities, doesn't really fundamentally change the types of spells you're going to want. heck, you might even still need a fly spell, because it turns out being able to fly is nice, but not nearly as helpful as your entire party being able to fly. wild magic at least has something that interacts with your main class feature, but probably doesn't really fundamentally alter the class that much. your archetype has very little impact, ultimately... it isn't like fire dragon sorcerers want fireball, but wild magic sorcerers think it's a crappy spell not worth their time because of that +5 damage. nor would a fire dragon sorcerer look at a spell like mass suggestion and think it is any less valuable due to not having bend luck.

compare those to something like a wizard, where many of the 8 original archetypes all give you something that interacts with your main class feature in a major way. an illusionist is heavily incentivized to play around with illusions in a way that a necromancer simply isn't. the necromancer meanwhile is pretty strongly encouraged to use undead minions. the diviner gets a lot of value out of using divination spells, and has the ability to more or less *know* that something will or won't work in advance 2-3 times per day. an enchanter can use spells like charm person in ways nobody else can afford to use them, and gets a lot of added value out of single-target enchantment spells. not every archetype plays completely differently, but there is room for them to have abilities that make big changes in the way the class plays. i would almost never suggest using charm person unless you're a high level enchanter, and while dropping a fireball on my own team is a tough decision for most wizards, evokers can often do it safely no problem. for most of the core wizard schools, i can point to spells that i would almost never consider using on a wizard of any other type that can do very interesting things in the hands of a wizard of the right school.

sorcerer subclasses don't tend to do that. but you know what does that for sorcerers? metamagic. metamagic can completely change the way the class plays. the difference between a careful/heighten sorcerer and a twin/quicken sorcerer is likely much larger than the difference between a draconic sorcerer and a wild magic sorcerer. metamagic says a lot more about what you want your sorcerer to do than archetype.
You're being an awful strawman here.
You're making a critic that basically except Wild Magic, other archetype's features don't incentize you to use your spells or otherwise interact with it, then pick up Wizard to try and illustrate your point. Except that it worked against you.

"Necromancer is pretty strongly encouraged to use undead minions"
Well, the Draconic Sorcerer is pretty strongly encouraged to use a specific type of damage, preferably AOE: flat efficiency bonus in both cases, and Draconic also gets Fly which helps much in positioning to maximize the number of targets hit.

"Diviner gets a lot of value out of using divination spells"
Or rather, they made the "recovery" mechanic to make the Wizard feel less costly the cast of a Divination spell, because, unless the character is really that much into it, it feels often somewhat of a waste using a slot on these when a Wizard has that many other great options for the day (spells prepared and spell slots).
Portent is great though, no argue on that. But it's like a glorified Lucky. :)
Sorcerer has a similar aptitude with Heightened: less reliable, but usable much more often.

"enchanter can use charm spells like nobody else can afford to use them".
Sure, but how often would you really need to Twin a charm spell in any given day? Generally not enough to make it that better than having the Twin metamagic at the ready.

As for Draconic...
"Do the fact that you don't need Mage Armour really change how the class is played"?
No indeed, not really in appearance. But it frees one of the precious spell known in turn, so you can cast one more spell: and that does change the way you play. ;)
"How about +5 damage"
Well, I notice you *strangely* didn't speak about the Evoker Wizard, maybe because it's basically the same kind of benefit? :)
Having a net and great (at low levels) bonus damage does incite the player to rely more on that kind of damage, and Sorcerer (thanks to EE / SCAG) has now enough options to find things that he likes. Having a net bonus damage on AOE kinda provides an assurance on how well you will damage, compensating the low, but existing risk of very crappy rolls (although Sorcerer has access to Empowered, he has very few Metamagic known).

"Even Fly won't change the kind of spells you want".
Well, probably not. But it does empower your spellcasting by enabling better positioning: going over a wall that blocked cover, reaching some place above the battlefield from which you can unleash spells while being relatively safe from archers because of view (prone between turns to get unseen), etc.
It's as void as saying that Cunning Action's Dash doesn't anything special as to how to play a Rogue, because only Hide is really needed.
Of course Dash doesn't interact with Sneak Attack strictly speaking. But it does allow you to reach that important target much easier. So it does help you making use of your main feature. On that note, the free FLY is really neat together with Draconic's 18th level ability. And that is a distinctive, powerful feature.

Or as meaningless as saying that Bladesinger archetype provides nothing to the spellcasting aspect, which some people do here: extra AC and concentration means saving Shield and being able to maintain spells much more easily, so while not a "shiny" benefit, it's a very solid one. And the other features do incite you to some spell and feat selection if you want to use them to the max. But you could ignore them also. The fact that player has this choice is not a weakness, thats a good thing. :)

As for Wild Magic...
"wild magic at least has something that interacts with your main class feature, but probably doesn't really fundamentally alter the class that much."
How so? Beyond the Surges that are more or less beyond your control, Tides of Chaos makes your Chromatic Orb (or other single-target spell) much more reliable. So it does incite you to pick high damage, single target attack roll spells.
Bend Luck could be used to further help friends which you cast Enhance Ability on for a buffer, or to be extra sure that Bestow Curse or Hold X or Dominate sticks for a debuffer, or simply used to regularly help people. So you can certainly keep it for "other people"'s benefit, but you could as well use it to the max for yourself, in which case it does heavily affect your choice of spell: single target debuff.
Spell Bombardment finally gives a good reason to favor spells with many damage dice over those with a lesser number, since its feature relies on getting the max on one die.

True, Metamagics are one pillar of what makes you a Sorcerer, since you have so few of them known. But you cannot consider them without considering the Origin, and vice-versa, because each affects the other's choice. Exactly as with Warlock and its stack of Patron+Pact+Invocations.

[EvilAnagram]

snip.

I think you make some excellent points about the way metamagic interacts with a sorcerer's primary ability, but I would contend that the archetype absolutely alters the way you play.

Draconic sorcerers at the very least are pressured towards certain spell selections and styles depending on their ancestry, and the three-pronged boost to defenses (HP, AC, and resistance) subtly pushes the player to be less careful. I don't know if you've seen them in play, but I've found DS players are much more willing to put themselves at risk than wizards or other sorcerers, and I think in part that's because the defensive boosts make them more comfortable with risks.

Contrast with Wild Magic, which pushes players toward less focused spell selections.

Or look at Storm: the abilities pressure players to use thunder and lightning spells while staying close enough to enemies to benefit from the bonus damage while perfectly capable of removing oneself from combat. The mechanics push you towards being a skirmishing blaster.

Sure, metamagic arguably has a greater effect, but other features still matter.

[Lombra]

Which is why the sorcerer is not taking a long rest.

Further bursting: you regain 4 expended sorcery points, so you can't accumulate them.

[Vaz]

Lombra, are you aware of the Coffee Sorcerer?

Being fair, the concept works better with Warlock 3/Sorc 3+, using Short Rests to burn L2 Spell Slots and rebuild your 5th level spell slots over that time. You don't need to Long Rest, until you run out of HP or high level spells.

[Specter]

Monk only regains Ki from Perfect Self if they have none. So with 20 Ki points, you'd have to go at least three fights without any rest at all (assuming three rounds per battle and using at least 2 ki a round, which is not granted) for it to have any effect at all. Even if your DM follows the adventuring day strictly, you may not use it. I'll take Ranger's roundly Precision Attack over Perfect Self/Superior Inspiration any day.

[Citan]

Monk only regains Ki from Perfect Self if they have none. So with 20 Ki points, you'd have to go at least three fights without any rest at all (assuming three rounds per battle and using at least 2 ki a round, which is not granted) for it to have any effect at all. Even if your DM follows the adventuring day strictly, you may not use it. I'll take Ranger's roundly Precision Attack over Perfect Self/Superior Inspiration any day.
That's a very arbitrary reasoning and ungrounded opinion, mind you.
We are talking about level 20 here.
Nearly all creatures you will face will have big HP, high offense or defense, several features targeting saves.

In any normal adventuring day, I see no reason why a Monk would not activate his Empty Body in an encounter. Although that's indeed always debatable.

Also, the "three rounds per encounter" is extremely optimistic, especially for that level. I'll let other give their opinion on this, but mine is that at the very least 5 rounds on average should be counted (3 rounds is credible for an Easy encounter, certainly not on a Hard unless you really had the proper party, prepared spells and luck to deal with it).

I don't see either why a Monk wouldn't use at least one Ki on Flurry of Blow/Dash/Disengage/Dodge, and at least 1 point -if not more- on Stunning Strike each round, not even taking into account more powerful options (Sun Soul, Long Death Monk, Open Hand's Quivering Palm, 4E spells) nor Diamond Soul reroll (at that level, you will probably be threatened by at least 2 effects at minimum in any given encounter).

So imo you can expect at least something between 8 and 12 Ki points drain per encounter in average, considering you didn't blow high resources and had a bit of luck.
And on a >Hard encounter a Monk may quickly run out if he wants to be on the safe side or make a big risk/big benefit gamble.

>>> Perfect Self may come in play much quicker and much more often than you think.

As for Perfect Inspiration VS Ranger capstone: the latter is amounting to either +5 (direct damage) or +10 (bonus to hit to enable Sharpshooter) PER TURN, on a SINGLE enemy.
At that level, this will still make a difference for creatures that weren't that much of a threat anymore anyways. But won't change the number of turns you would need to take down a big enemy.

In comparison, the Bard's Inspiration could very well make the difference between a success and a fail on a friend's save: and having one ally avoid being paralysed, blind or charmed and turned on you, or just suffering massive damage, amount to much more in combat contribution than a plain +5/+10... Especially if you consider encounters to take 3 rounds on average.

[GlenSmash!]

Ranger (revised or otherwise) is so Bad I always plan on multiclassing. It's gotten to the point where I just plan on starting out with one level of Fighter on all my Rangers :-(

This is in stark contrast to my Barbarians where I heavily weigh Multiclassing against even the outside chance the campaign could go to 20.

[JumboWheat01]

It makes me wonder if a Ranger's capstone seems so lack-luster to make up for how amazing the other two primal classes (Barbarian and Druid) do in the capstone department.

[Naanomi]

+to Hit is always nice but... +2-3 to hit isn't as good as most sources (bless etc); only for one attack (when most non-beastmaster Rangers will be swinging 2-4 times a round); but most damning for Core rangers only to favored enemies. Some campaigns you can easily predict your foes at high levels, but there will still likely be fights where you can't even use the capstone at all: you are great at demon killing, but that is no help to the cultists beforehand.

[Finger6842]

Capstone should be all equally bad so we can multi-class without guilt :smallsmile:

Really with Bard 2 dip levels are my standard, whereas my Fighter or Barbarian would never consider it. I can't seem to purposely play in a campaign that isn't expected to continue to lvl 20. I also patiently await high end play modules NOT featuring battles with Gods.

[SharkForce]

draconic sorcerer doesn't change spell selection. wanting to be a lightning sorcerer leads people to choose blue draconic sorcerer, not the other way around... there is zero incentive to choose lightning spells before level 6 mechanically, but everyone always wants lightning spells anyways. so, as i said... people who want to play a sorcerer that nukes with some specific element choose draconic sorcerer because it does anything at all, not because it's amazing. cold sorcerer will never get better value out of cone of cold than even a regular sorcerer is likely to get out of a fireball with nothing boosting it, but the cold sorcerer chooses cold spells anyways because they want to play a cold sorcerer.

also, i did mention evoker. i just didn't mention their minor damage bonus, instead i mentioned their ability to drop a fireball on their own party without hurting their own party as a result. that's the significant change in an evoker. likewise, the significant reason charm person is great on an enchanter and crap for anyone else isn't because of the free twin, it's because the enchanter can make people not hate them for using charm person. (free twin is much more interesting for options like spell mastery hold person or high level power word spells).

also, the class feature that wild sorcerers get that actually impacts their spellcasting in a meaningful way is bend luck, because it can be used to increase your chance of landing a spell with a save DC. the rest are pretty minor... the great majority of attack roll spells are cantrips, which you'll be using primarily when there isn't much of a threat.

storm sorcerers don't have the class features to hang around in the front lines safely. nor is a 10 foot reposition enough to keep them reliably safe, in my experience. likewise, the +1 HP per level is not really enough to reliably keep draconic sorcerers alive if they take foolish risks. if your draconic sorcerer goes around thinking they're suddenly a tank, they're probably going to die.

the big change for sorcerers is their metamagic. that's the big thing that sorcerers get that makes them play differently. yes, other class features do have some minor impact, but there really isn't enough to change things nearly as much as some other subclasses can. they aren't the only class with that problem, but they do have that problem.

[MaxWilson]

For the thread, don't discount the sorcerer capstone. It opens up a new dimension of play for the sorcerer: Building up power with downtime. They don't get contingency, guards and wards, forbiddance, sympathy/antipathy, simulacrum, animate dead, create undead, or really any kind of long-lasting spells that you cast in downtime and use later on during an adventure. With the ability regain sorcerer points on a short rest (then turn that into spell slots that last until you take a long rest), you have the option to build up more than your full assortment of spell slots with downtime.

The wizard takes a week off to prepare a ~150 skeleton army to unleash, while in that time the sorcerer builds up an extra 16 5th level slots by short resting four times a day (two normal and two while not taking a long rest). A long rest recovers more resources than 8 short rests, if you've spent them, and is the only way to get back HP, hit dice, and high level slots, but if you aren't missing any of those, short rest resource recovery lets the sorcerer instead charge their lasers.

Pshaw. The Sorlock has been doing that trick since she was a 5th level Warlock 2/Sorc 3. :-)

[Klorox]

Capstone should be all equally bad so we can multi-class without guilt :smallsmile:

Really with Bard 2 dip levels are my standard, whereas my Fighter or Barbarian would never consider it. I can't seem to purposely play in a campaign that isn't expected to continue to lvl 20. I also patiently await high end play modules NOT featuring battles with Gods.

Druid is the only class I'd intentionally not multiclass since the capstone is so good.

Everything else is better with some dips.

[Klorox]

Pshaw. The Sorlock has been doing that trick since she was a 5th level Warlock 2/Sorc 3. :-)

Yuuuup.

So true. You're literally getting a capstone at level 5. Amazing combo.

[toapat]

Druid is the only class I'd intentionally not multiclass since the capstone is so good.

Everything else is better with some dips.

both ancients and vengeance have pretty rediculous capstones. objectively if you go by subclass to subclass, theres no question that the OotA capstone is the second strongest in the game.

[Citan]

both ancients and vengeance have pretty rediculous capstones. objectively if you go by subclass to subclass, theres no question that the OotA capstone is the second strongest in the game.
Seconded. It's incredibly good... While it lasts. :)

[Beelzebubba]

Druid is the only class I'd intentionally not multiclass since the capstone is so good.

Everything else is better with some dips.

I think the Druid Circles probably need different capstones.

Land Druid is probably fine with the one it has now, because the wild shapes themselves are so weak, so it's more of an infinite low-level utility thing. Someone clever can do all sorts of stuff with the spellcasting in an innocuous form, but the low hit points of those shapes make that risky in combat. (Even Sleep will take out most forms, let alone Disintegrate or Power Word Kill.)

But, the Moon Druid needs something else. I could see something 'once a day' that's pretty cool, like the Paladin options. They get some elemental form that is either more awesome, or when they turn into an elemental they automatically summon a few smaller ones to come with them, something like that.

[SharkForce]

I think the Druid Circles probably need different capstones.

Land Druid is probably fine with the one it has now, because the wild shapes themselves are so weak, so it's more of an infinite low-level utility thing. Someone clever can do all sorts of stuff with the spellcasting in an innocuous form, but the low hit points of those shapes make that risky in combat. (Even Sleep will take out most forms, let alone Disintegrate or Power Word Kill.)

But, the Moon Druid needs something else. I could see something 'once a day' that's pretty cool, like the Paladin options. They get some elemental form that is either more awesome, or when they turn into an elemental they automatically summon a few smaller ones to come with them, something like that.

or, alternately, all the druids need the same capstone: at-will use of regular wild shape, with no enhancements. still useful for moon druids, because they can use regular wild shape for utility as often as they want that way, whereas without it every time they turn into a mouse to squeeze through a crack or a fish to swim across a river they're giving up uses of their combat wild shape.

[Beelzebubba]

or, alternately, all the druids need the same capstone: at-will use of regular wild shape, with no enhancements. still useful for moon druids, because they can use regular wild shape for utility as often as they want that way, whereas without it every time they turn into a mouse to squeeze through a crack or a fish to swim across a river they're giving up uses of their combat wild shape.

Oooooh, I like that. And, since they're more wild-shape based, that makes more sense.

[90sMusic]

Most DMs are terrible at making things up on the fly or having any clue as to what balance is. It's why most of them don't allow homebrew of any sort because unless it has a wizards of the coast sticker on it they are scared of it. So when you use divine intervention and ask a DM to make up some sort of effect to help you do whatever task you're doing to do, most of the time it's going to be underwhelming because they not only have to think up some reasonable effect but they also have to do it very quickly on the spot.

It's very rare in my experience for DMs to handle divine intervention well. And having it always work as a capstone is laughable since there are no rules governing it at all except the fact you can only try it once per day and only succeed once per week. Everything else is up to your DM and that is very bad, shaky, and dangerous ground to be on, especially since the mentality of most DMs is very adversarial and against the players. DMs hate it when players think up clever solutions to bypass challenges they create and take it like a personal slight if you outsmart their gimmick to the point they disallow the laws of physics or even the effects of magic just to make it impossible to bypass their challenge. I can only imagine these sorts having to choose an effect for divine intervention when its used to make a fight easier that they wanted to be brutally difficult. It aint gonna happen.

[Naanomi]

Most DMs are terrible at making things up on the fly or having any clue as to what balance is. It's why most of them don't allow homebrew of any sort because unless it has a wizards of the coast sticker on it they are scared of it. So when you use divine intervention and ask a DM to make up some sort of effect to help you do whatever task you're doing to do, most of the time it's going to be underwhelming because they not only have to think up some reasonable effect but they also have to do it very quickly on the spot.

It's very rare in my experience for DMs to handle divine intervention well. And having it always work as a capstone is laughable since there are no rules governing it at all except the fact you can only try it once per day and only succeed once per week. Everything else is up to your DM and that is very bad, shaky, and dangerous ground to be on, especially since the mentality of most DMs is very adversarial and against the players. DMs hate it when players think up clever solutions to bypass challenges they create and take it like a personal slight if you outsmart their gimmick to the point they disallow the laws of physics or even the effects of magic just to make it impossible to bypass their challenge. I can only imagine these sorts having to choose an effect for divine intervention when its used to make a fight easier that they wanted to be brutally difficult. It aint gonna happen.
I generally make the ability equivalent to Wish, duplicating an 8th level or lower Spell; except that I ensure that I choose something I know should help as a GM instead of risks of 'wasting' the effect

[toapat]

I generally make the ability equivalent to Wish, duplicating an 8th level or lower Spell; except that I ensure that I choose something I know should help as a GM instead of risks of 'wasting' the effect

when i read Divine Intervention i interpreted the ability as basically the Miracle spell, but more, Miracleish.

[WaggleDagger]

I think one of the things to consider here is that multiclassing is a variant rule, so it isn't nearly as guaranteed to be "fair" to all players. So then the capstone is a nice "oh cool" at level 20, instead of a reason to stick with the class. Once the DM allows multiclassing, most capstones are out the window. (Except Paladin, if you ask me.)

[Naanomi]

I think one of the things to consider here is that multiclassing is a variant rule, so it isn't nearly as guaranteed to be "fair" to all players. So then the capstone is a nice "oh cool" at level 20, instead of a reason to stick with the class. Once the DM allows multiclassing, most capstones are out the window. (Except Paladin, if you ask me.)
I have a hard time wanting to leave Barbarian, the lure of breaking the Stat-cap is just too much for me to resist

[Lucas Yew]

I once foolishly thought that the usage of epic boons can make the barbarian capstone obsolete...
...right until I realized that Unlimited Rage per day is a thing, too.

Of improved divine intervention, I'd let it work as a 9th level worth cleric spell effect. A "seemingly" random second 9th slot effect per week, but always beneficial to the players in some way; and they can figure out subtle messages from me that give hints on what will be their next challenge, judging by the nature of the recent intervention.

For the poor sorcerer, I propose an alternative option; what if you reduced the cost of one metamagic you know by 1 (minimum 0)?

[90sMusic]

I once foolishly thought that the usage of epic boons can make the barbarian capstone obsolete...
...right until I realized that Unlimited Rage per day is a thing, too.

Of improved divine intervention, I'd let it work as a 9th level worth cleric spell effect. A "seemingly" random second 9th slot effect per week, but always beneficial to the players in some way; and they can figure out subtle messages from me that give hints on what will be their next challenge, judging by the nature of the recent intervention.

For the poor sorcerer, I propose an alternative option; what if you reduced the cost of one metamagic you know by 1 (minimum 0)?

Would be great if you gave them the Spellpoint variant as their capstone. Very fitting for their ability to manipulate magical energies and it is practically what they can already do except it caps at 5th level spells and has a loss on the return. Going full spellpoint would remove those diminishing returns and raise the cap to 9th level spells.

This is unrelated, but I really hate the idea that True Polymorph isn't a sorcerer spell. Would be so great to have a dragon blood sorcerer, maybe even a dragonborn too, one day being able to become a true dragon. I've always thought it was weird that warlocks can do it but can't wish, while sorcerers can wish but cant true poly.

[Citan]

Would be great if you gave them the Spellpoint variant as their capstone. Very fitting for their ability to manipulate magical energies and it is practically what they can already do except it caps at 5th level spells and has a loss on the return. Going full spellpoint would remove those diminishing returns and raise the cap to 9th level spells.

This is unrelated, but I really hate the idea that True Polymorph isn't a sorcerer spell. Would be so great to have a dragon blood sorcerer, maybe even a dragonborn too, one day being able to become a true dragon. I've always thought it was weird that warlocks can do it but can't wish, while sorcerers can wish but cant true poly.
Unfortunately this would break the balance, hard, like shattering hard if you went and did that for Sorcerer only. Unless you are in a game where he's the only one with any spellcasting.

Because while it may seem "equal" because if you blew the same combination of slots as normal you ends with the same "power", in reality there are so many great 1st to 3rd level (4th) spells to use that your Sorcerer could use them nearly as if they were cantrips, and that would make other casters pale in comparison.
Now for a housegame with only Sorcerer caster (or if everyone else don't mind), go ahead, should be very fun for your player, and challenging for you. :)

(IMO though, the ones who could profit the most from spellpoints casting in the first place would be the AT and EK. Considering how few spells they have currently, this would make a big change for them. But then it would probably create a strong shift in balance as well: now any of them could decide to just blow all of their 38 points on Shield because, contrarily to normal, there is no "loss" because of upcasting an unscalable spell: and with 19 Shield per day, it becomes a super strong defense option).

[polymphus]

Druid is the only class I'd intentionally not multiclass since the capstone is so good.

Everything else is better with some dips.
Barbarian's capstone isn't flashy, but it comes in useful multiple times a turn in every single combat you do. I don't think I'd ever dip a barbarian: +2 to Strength and Con rolls AND it lets you break the regular bonus cap? The barbarian is the only class that can get a +7 stat bonus, and it can get it on two major stats.

Sure it's not turning into a dragon, but it's definitely up there. The barbarian capstone is, quite frankly, mantastic.

[Mortheim]

PHB ranger capstone is too bad compared to a lot of others.

Revised ranger is better, but, still, those +2-5 is not what you want from capstone. Wisdom is good, but there is no point in increasing it too much, so we are looking at +2 bonus (at least i would stay in that), so getting 1 level of fighter is better. Maybe it is good cause you can use it on every turn and lower chance on missing, but...