Cleric (Life) 4th level feat choice

[xroads]

I have a cleric that recently made 4th level and I need help trying to determine the best feat for me to choose.

I list some of the character's stats below for reference. My questions are...


Should I pick up Resilient (Constitution) to assist in my concentration checks?
If yes, should I follow that up with choosing +1 Str & +1 Con at 8th so that I can get a bump in hit points and be able to wear splint or plate?

I tend to end up tanking quite a bit. So being a touch less squishy is useful. But so is the higher spell attack & DC I'd

end up having to delay.

Also other thoughts on options I haven't considered are welcome.


Class: Cleric of Helm (Life Domain)
Level: 4
Background: City Watch
Race: Human (Variant)
Alignment: LG
Hit Points: 31
AC: 18 (Half-plate, Shield)


Str: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 8


Human Variant Feat: War Caster

Thanks in advance!

[nickl_2000]

Does your DM allow the hp bonus to apply to goodberry (i.e. Each good berry grants 4 hp?).

If the answer is yes, then take magic initiate Druid to get thorn whip, another cantrip, and good-berry. This will massively enhance your healing, give you a good attack/control cantrip and free up spell slots for blasting

[Citan]

I have a cleric that recently made 4th level and I need help trying to determine the best feat for me to choose.

I list some of the character's stats below for reference. My questions are...


Should I pick up Resilient (Constitution) to assist in my concentration checks?
If yes, should I follow that up with choosing +1 Str & +1 Con at 8th so that I can get a bump in hit points and be able to wear splint or plate?

I tend to end up tanking quite a bit. So being a touch less squishy is useful. But so is the higher spell attack & DC I'd

end up having to delay.

Also other thoughts on options I haven't considered are welcome.



Thanks in advance!

First things first...

Does your DM allow the hp bonus to apply to goodberry (i.e. Each good berry grants 4 hp?).

If the answer is yes, then take magic initiate Druid to get thorn whip, another cantrip, and good-berry. This will massively enhance your healing, give you a good attack/control cantrip and free up spell slots for blasting
No. Seriously. Don't take Magic Initiate Druid "because you get Goodberry". It's 1/long rest. It's great at level 4, decent at level 6, useless at level 8 and beyond.

Take Magic Initiate: Druid because you actually want to play with Thorns Whip (which is indeed a great cantrip) and Frostbite or the like to get an alternative to Sacred Flame. Goodberry is just a berry (or rather, 10 ;)) on top of the cake, not the cake itself.

But really, it depends on why you are tanking. If you are tanking because there is only one frontliner and you need to help controlling who threatens the squishies, then Thorns Whip may actually be a good choice thanks to the pull effect.

If you are tanking because you are actually the only one (or one of two) people that can take hits and you really WANT to take hits, and find yourself more often than once breaking concentration, then indeed take Resilient. Otherwise I'd say whatever suits you. +2 CON gives a decent HP boost, but Tough would be plain bigger. +2 WIS would make some controllish spells like Blindnes, Command or Hold Person a bit stickier.

Also note that technically you can already wield the heaviest armor. You "just" lose speed, but it your goal is taking attacks in place of allies this would actually be a good thing. You could pair it with Heavy Armor Master, although this is one of those feats that quickly lose brightness as you progress (at low levels you really feel the difference each encounter. Past level 7-8 it will do good in the long run but won't prevent downing any more. Past level 12 you will forget you have it). ;)
On the flip side, Defensive Duelist is a feat you could consider if you usually sustain around one-two attacks per round and usually have no chance to use spell as OA from Warcaster: its value increases with level since it scales with proficiency.

In short, I'd say...
- Pick Magic Initiate if until now, you felt your sustained options were limited: Thorns Whip is a pretty good cantrip: melee (so no disadvantage at close range) but effective 30 feet range, so easier to position yourself to find the right balance between threat and security.
- Pick +2 WIS if you use Sacred Weapon as your main way of attack, or if you often use offensive spells.
- Otherwise, Resilient Constitution is always a good choice, you can pair it with +1 WIS and +1 CON then Observant: WIS later.

[Vaz]

TL 40HP is a waste at 8th level. Plenty of Characters would love another +5 Con. Barbarians love having an additional effective 80HP. Fighters ability to live longer is another round of damage. Being able to split it among the party is awesome.

It's not In combat healing.

You're underselling its practicalities. If you're taking Magic Initiate, Druid.for Goodberry is one of the best out there, and Shillelagh+Thorn Whip are a very good combination of cantrips to make use.

[bid]

Should I pick up Resilient (Constitution) to assist in my concentration checks?

You already have warcaster, don't bother with a mere +2.

Wis18 to improve spiritual weapon.

[Finger6842]

I'm not sure why you are tanking, no tank? If so, You might also pick up 1 or 2 level(s) of Paladin or Warrior.
Missing battlefield control? Poor team play? Poor tactics? Do you feel you should because you have heavy armor?

2 in Wisdom is the best answer if you stay Cleric and tank less, which is what I recommend.

[sir_argo]

I was going to say that Resilent Con is a good choice, but then I read Bid's post. I didn't see that you already had Warcaster. So, no, I don't think Resilient Con is a good choice.

I'm not a fan of Magic Initiate unless you have a pretty specific idea, and it doesn't sound like you do. Magic Initiate is great if you have synergy between the spells you pick and other character traits. Again, doesn't sound like you have a combo in mind.

Tough is good because it scales, but at 4th level? I might wait for another ASI before I take it.

I looked through the feat list to find something that really popped out and didn't see anything.

I'd probably take the +2 to your Con. It gives you half of what Tough would have given you, and bumps your concentration.

[djreynolds]

I was going to say that Resilent Con is a good choice, but then I read Bid's post. I didn't see that you already had Warcaster. So, no, I don't think Resilient Con is a good choice.


Good point and good catch

I like resilient con, but at 4th level it can wait till later on. Maybe 12th level as your proficiency bonus is +4 and then +5 at 13th. And you already have war caster, which advantage is about an average of +5 to your concentration checks.

The feat, like so many others is influenced by your party makeup

Say you have a paladin in melee his aura of protection, though only 10ft and at 6th level could carry you.

Bless is 1d4 to all saves, this will help with nasty con checks like paralysis and stuns

Protection from good and evil should also help versus undead types that can paralyze you as they have disadvantage to hit you. These types of attacks target con saves, which resilient con does help with... but not getting hit does as well

Right now, even though you are in melee, you are a caster and IMO max out that wisdom first. As it affects spells

Aid is a good spell, so cast it at the end of every long rest

Grabbing magic initiate druid or even a level of druid for shillelagh (attacking with your wisdom stat) and goodberry and thornwhip is not a bad idea and should be considered at around 8th level when you obtain divine strike.

Another idea is to grab magic initiate and take something like BB/GFB and make those AoO hurt.

Or you could grab a level of druid, and then grab magic initiate for BB/GFB... no prerequisite required for magic initiate

But you do have hold person and the higher your wisdom is... the less likely foes can make their saves. Same for sacred flame

Your best defense is the spirit guardians spell at 5th level, its like lice... no one wants to be near you. The higher the spell DC the less likely you will be bothered

Because of spirit guardians and its concentration, I find that I either stand back and spam sacred flame and use my BA for spiritual weapon, or move into melee and cause havoc. However, using hold person as AoO and you will lose concentration on spirit guardians.

[jaappleton]

I say +2 Wisdom

Your DC needs to be as high as possible. Clerics have some nasty effects. Banishment, for example.

[Quoxis]

You already have warcaster, don't bother with a mere +2.

Wis18 to improve spiritual weapon.

+2 now, +3 at one level higher, up to +6 at lvl 20 (if i remember correctly about the proficiency boni)

[Citan]

TL 40HP is a waste at 8th level. Plenty of Characters would love another +5 Con. Barbarians love having an additional effective 80HP. Fighters ability to live longer is another round of damage. Being able to split it among the party is awesome.

It's not In combat healing.

You're underselling its practicalities. If you're taking Magic Initiate, Druid.for Goodberry is one of the best out there, and Shillelagh+Thorn Whip are a very good combination of cantrips to make use.
No. Again, definitely, NO.
I already said that Thorns Whip is a very good cantrip, and that may be a reason enough to grab Magic Initiate. Same could be said with Shillelagh, although this one is basically useless for a Cleric unless you take related feats or have other ways to empower your weapon attacks, like some Domain features.

But Goodberry? At level 4, it does allow you to spare quite a bit of money that would otherwise have to be spent on potions, because at that time, 50Gp is usually still a significant dent into the money pool. At level 8, that shouldn't be a problem anymore.

It's not "having a +5 CON" or "an additional effective 80 HP". It's having a way to regain +4 HP for an action. Which is equal to the worst possible result on a potion of healing (2*1+2), and extremely weak compared to its best roll (10). So you basically chose for your whole life a spell that is equal to a handful of potions.

Make no mistake, I love the Life Goodberries combo, and it's one of the reasons I often suggest a Life Cleric dip for a Bard, or a multiclass Druid for a Life Cleric.

But as a Magic Initiate spell?
It's worthless because you can cast it only once per day and its real value drops very fast as you progress in level. And because you cannot change this choice. Ever.

If you really wanted to boost party survivability, you would take Inspiring Leader or Healer feat depending on stats. Those are actually ones which efficiency increases as you level.

Grabbing Magic Initiate for the sake of Mage Armor or Find Familiar is a good reason. Grabbing Magic Initiate for the sake of Bless or even Longstrider, Expeditious Retreat, Speak with Animals or Comprehend Languages could be understandable for some characters. Those can still be put to some good use at later levels.
Grabbing Magic Initiate for the sake of Goodberry is never a good one. You either pick Druid for its cantrips, or you don't.
(Speaking from an optimization point of view obviously. If it's a fluff thing, anything goes).

[Findulidas]

If you already have warcaster then going for 18 and then 20 wis is probably the most sound. Also seriously dont be THE party tank in a group as a full caster class. Let the rogue/fighter/paladin/barbarian/monk tank.

[Vaz]

Its out of combat healing. For free. Another bulk HP you have to go into every fight with.

Literally, it does the exact same thing as Tough, except is available to the entire party, if you wish.

Admittedly, I'd probably take Druid 1 for just that ability and being able to do it muktiple times in a day.

Say "No" all you want, but you're wrong.

[Citan]

Its out of combat healing. For free. Another bulk HP you have to go into every fight with.

Literally, it does the exact same thing as Tough, except is available to the entire party, if you wish.

Admittedly, I'd probably take Druid 1 for just that ability and being able to do it muktiple times in a day.

Say "No" all you want, but you're wrong.
You just proved that I'm right (which is a good thing, since you didn't provide any counter-argument anyways since you seem not to have any) since you admit yourself that it requires a full dip to make it worth. Thanks. :)

Also, it's absolutely not the same thing as Tough. Tough is up to 40 HP in the end, available each day, on a single character, without an action: so you can "eat" up to 40 more damage in a single turn. Totally different to restoring just 4 HP after the fact if you are still alive with an action, which is plain inferior to drinking a potion (which should be considered "free" once you went past a certain character level) or using a healer's kit to restore 1d6+X to any friend once per short rest.

[Vaz]

Goodberry is 40HP. Tough is 8HP. At 20th level, Goodberry is 40HP, Tough is 40HP.

What's the difference? Oh, you need to use an action to eat a Berry to restore hitpoints, or take a minute to restore 40? So what? If you need in combat healing, that is why a Life Healer exists.

Otherwise, Goodberry is giving either the self +40HP or another party member +40, effectively douing to 80 if they are a Barbarian.

I'd take Druid 1 on a Life Cleric, purely for the ability to take Goodberry multiple times in a day. I'd delay access to higher level healing spells to get multiple goodberries. It is THAT good a spell. Not that it requires a dip to make good.

[Citan]

Goodberry is 40HP. Tough is 8HP. At 20th level, Goodberry is 40HP, Tough is 40HP.

What's the difference? Oh, you need to use an action to eat a Berry to restore hitpoints, or take a minute to restore 40? So what? If you need in combat healing, that is why a Life Healer exists.

Otherwise, Goodberry is giving either the self +40HP or another party member +40, effectively douing to 80 if they are a Barbarian.

I'd take Druid 1 on a Life Cleric, purely for the ability to take Goodberry multiple times in a day. I'd delay access to higher level healing spells to get multiple goodberries. It is THAT good a spell. Not that it requires a dip to make good.
I never said otherwise: if you can (up)cast it multiple times a day (dip), it's worth it.
Otherwise (Magic Initiate), it's not worth it. Because it's useless at higher levels compared to any other option provided by equipment, spell or feat, whether you consider investment cost or action economy cost.
You can deny it how hard you want, as childishly as you want (since you never even try to give counter-argument to my factual ones), this is the plain truth, hardened by simple maths: you don't take Magic Initiate Druid FOR Goodberry, you pick Magic Initiate Druid for its cantrips, and just choose Goodberry because you don't have any better synergy with another spell for your particular character.


As for OP: I agree with others saying that Resilient: Constitution is in fact a bad choice for 4th level feat, because it's indeed +2 only. You have better choices at that time and you can pick it around level 12, you will feel the boost much more. :)

[djreynolds]

Goodberry is 40HP. Tough is 8HP. At 20th level, Goodberry is 40HP, Tough is 40HP.

What's the difference? Oh, you need to use an action to eat a Berry to restore hitpoints, or take a minute to restore 40? So what? If you need in combat healing, that is why a Life Healer exists.

Otherwise, Goodberry is giving either the self +40HP or another party member +40, effectively douing to 80 if they are a Barbarian.

I'd take Druid 1 on a Life Cleric, purely for the ability to take Goodberry multiple times in a day. I'd delay access to higher level healing spells to get multiple goodberries. It is THAT good a spell. Not that it requires a dip to make good.

I can't ever see tough being taken this early, only because +2 in con adds to saves and is half the HP.

I recommend wis till 20, 8th level. Then consider at 9th a grab a level of druid for shillelagh or magic initiate for shillelagh as the OP just got divine strike.

The Aid spell is right also

[Citan]

I can't ever see tough being taken this early, only because +2 in con adds to saves and is half the HP.

I recommend wis till 20, 8th level. Then consider at 9th a grab a level of druid for shillelagh or magic initiate for shillelagh as the OP just got divine strike.

The Aid spell is right also
True that. :) Tough is definitely in the group of feats that are better chosen later rather than sooner. ^^
I'd also recommend the Druid dip, but probably after Cleric 9 though at least, because as a healer I really don't see how you could delay access to Raise Dead in full awareness. ;)

I'm not sure you would need WIS that high that badly, considering how many other good feats you have.

So probably +2 WIS right now indeed, then either...
- empower your weapon attacks and grab Sentinel to improve the chances of getting OA. And get Shillelagh (be SAD) and Thorns Whip (great combo with Sentinel, Warcaster and Spirit Guardians active).
- or get even better at healing and take Healer feat.
- or just indeed max WIS because you are not sure how to develop your character further.

[Vaz]

I never said otherwise: if you can (up)cast it multiple times a day (dip), it's worth it.
Otherwise (Magic Initiate), it's not worth it. Because it's useless at higher levels compared to any other option provided by equipment, spell or feat, whether you consider investment cost or action economy cost.
Upcast. **** me. What are you smoking?

Also, you said that I had said it took Druid dip to make it worthwhile, which was you putting it in my mouth.


You can deny it how hard you want, as childishly as you want (since you never even try to give counter-argument to my factual ones), this is the plain truth, hardened by simple maths: you don't take Magic Initiate Druid FOR Goodberry, you pick Magic Initiate Druid for its cantrips, and just choose Goodberry because you don't have any better synergy with another spell for your particular character.
No. You take Goodberry for its ability to heal. No other ability, sans Tough provides the same amount of HP, at the cost of it being Ou Of Combat.

If you're a life cleric, and you want to heal, Goodberry as a Feat gives you the best healing possible. Look at the other abilities which provide HP. Tough? The only time Tough is ever better is by improving your Max HP, which only really affects your first combat and your OHKO threshold.

Instead, you can increase your DC on things you're not actually casting. As a Tank, why do you want increased DC? Perhaps Hold Person, but unless that DC15 Hold Person prevents 40HP damage more than a DC14 Hold Person, it doesn't outweigh Goodberry.

[strangebloke]

Instead, you can increase your DC on things you're not actually casting. As a Tank, why do you want increased DC? Perhaps Hold Person, but unless that DC15 Hold Person prevents 40HP damage more than a DC14 Hold Person, it doesn't outweigh Goodberry.

I agree with you about goodberry. It's a reasonably powerful combo, massively increasing your efficiency at low levels. At high levels, which may or may not happen, it's less good. (But once again, a lot of campaigns die at level 11)

But a significant portion of what a cleric does is attack rolls and saving throws. It's less flashy, but 5% improved accuracy and spell success rate on nearly every single turn is nice. It will also add +1 to every single healing spell, so it's not like your efficiency is really taking a hit.

[WereRabbitz]

If your going to be stuck tanking all the time then maybe the Heavy Armor Master feat to get the DR against normal weapons?

It makes it hard to pick something until the OP list out his party members and why he is tanking so much.

[Vaz]

I agree with you about goodberry. It's a reasonably powerful combo, massively increasing your efficiency at low levels. At high levels, which may or may not happen, it's less good. (But once again, a lot of campaigns die at level 11)

But a significant portion of what a cleric does is attack rolls and saving throws. It's less flashy, but 5% improved accuracy and spell success rate on nearly every single turn is nice. It will also add +1 to every single healing spell, so it's not like your efficiency is really taking a hit.

A large portion of the Life Cleric is taken up by healing. If you're tanking and taking damage, then having the ability to do that is better. Unless that increased DC is preventing more than 40HP damage in a day than what another one is, then sure - best defense is offense etc. But at the level that this is being taken, it's unlikely; 5% increase is having to fire off 20 extra spells (i.e Hold Person) and +1 to healing is offset by +40 healing.

Over the course of the game, unless you are getting OHKO'd Goddberry provides the best source of out of combat healing, which allows you to fight for longer. Each additional round you are up is another round you are dealing damage, which unless you can Alpha Strike an opponent (countered by fighting multiple mobs), means that they aren't going to be as effective.

Also, Clerics are among the least reliant spellcaster on their DC's due to their buff spells and uses for spell slots that don't require saves, like healing.

In 3.5, sure. +DC is everything. Alpha is king. Each round can take an hour to perform for a 4 person party. But they die in 1 round. 5e is often 3-7 rounds, and so sustain is more important.

[Biggstick]

No. You take Goodberry for its ability to heal. No other ability, sans Tough provides the same amount of HP, at the cost of it being Out Of Combat.

If you're a life cleric, and you want to heal, Goodberry as a Feat gives you the best healing possible. Look at the other abilities which provide HP. Tough? The only time Tough is ever better is by improving your Max HP, which only really affects your first combat and your OHKO threshold.

Instead, you can increase your DC on things you're not actually casting. As a Tank, why do you want increased DC? Perhaps Hold Person, but unless that DC15 Hold Person prevents 40HP damage more than a DC14 Hold Person, it doesn't outweigh Goodberry.

Arguably, Inspiring Leader will provide more hp. You can provide it to up to 6 friendly creatures (or 5 + yourself). The absolute minimum Inspiring Leader provides is 2 hp per creature (Level 1 Human Variant with 13 Cha). It's more likely to be taken on someone with 14-20 Charisma. It will also probably be taken at level 4, which means the temporary hp granted at level 4 would be somewhere in the range of 6-9 temporary hp per person. Another point for Inspiring Leader is that it refreshes on a short rest, meaning that 36 temporary hp you gave out (6 hp per person, times 6) for the first part of the day gets to be gone through and then refreshed per short rest. That means Inspiring Leader should be granting somewhere between 36-108 temporary hp per standard adventuring day, at level 4 with 14 Charisma.

This isn't to take away from Magic Initiate (Goodberry) on a Life Cleric though. I'm currently playing a level 6 Firbolg Life Cleric who took the same exact feat in a West Marches styled game. The rotating DM's definitely don't expect the amount of healing I can literally hand out to Players before we go on our adventure in that game.

[Vaz]

Arguably, Inspiring Leader will provide more hp. You can provide it to up to 6 friendly creatures (or 5 + yourself). The absolute minimum Inspiring Leader provides is 2 hp per creature (Level 1 Human Variant with 13 Cha). It's more likely to be taken on someone with 14-20 Charisma. It will also probably be taken at level 4, which means the temporary hp granted at level 4 would be somewhere in the range of 6-9 temporary hp per person. Another point for Inspiring Leader is that it refreshes on a short rest, meaning that 36 temporary hp you gave out (6 hp per person, times 6) for the first part of the day gets to be gone through and then refreshed per short rest. That means Inspiring Leader should be granting somewhere between 36-108 temporary hp per standard adventuring day, at level 4 with 14 Charisma.

This isn't to take away from Magic Initiate (Goodberry) on a Life Cleric though. I'm currently playing a level 6 Firbolg Life Cleric who took the same exact feat in a West Marches styled game. The rotating DM's definitely don't expect the amount of healing I can literally hand out to Players before we go on our adventure in that game.

That's true. The lack of burst or bulk to the HP is a bit weird, though, which can skew the calcs. Splitting 40 HP with another 2 party members who don't take much damage is less useful than being able to split 40pts. It's also slightly less "reactive" to combat, and more "proactive", and is Temp HP which can be wasted - I'm playing in a game with an Armour of Agathys using Paladin/Warlock. It adds an interesting Dynamic when the Inspiring Leader gets up to talk (Oddly enough, a Religious Assassin, who leads prayers and has converted half the party to the religion), my character goes "Here we go again" and sits down, because at the start of every combat, he has a 5th level AoA up anyway.

And also not something that this certain character can take. Cha 8, and all. There's also the other mitigation that you can Battlefield Control or hit a little bit harder which helps on that front, such as readied Thorn Whip acting as basically mini-Sentinel.

[strangebloke]

A large portion of the Life Cleric is taken up by healing. If you're tanking and taking damage, then having the ability to do that is better. Unless that increased DC is preventing more than 40HP damage in a day than what another one is, then sure - best defense is offense etc. But at the level that this is being taken, it's unlikely; 5% increase is having to fire off 20 extra spells (i.e Hold Person) and +1 to healing is offset by +40 healing.

Over the course of the game, unless you are getting OHKO'd Goddberry provides the best source of out of combat healing, which allows you to fight for longer. Each additional round you are up is another round you are dealing damage, which unless you can Alpha Strike an opponent (countered by fighting multiple mobs), means that they aren't going to be as effective.

Also, Clerics are among the least reliant spellcaster on their DC's due to their buff spells and uses for spell slots that don't require saves, like healing.

In 3.5, sure. +DC is everything. Alpha is king. Each round can take an hour to perform for a 4 person party. But they die in 1 round. 5e is often 3-7 rounds, and so sustain is more important.

I'm not saying its strictly better. Magic Initiate is certainly better at level 4, but at higher levels, +2 WIS is better. We can quibble about at what level +2 wis becomes better, but I think it is pretty inarguable that that level exists. It depends on build, playstyle, and how high-level the campaign is going. Clerics can go light on WIS, but they miss out on some of their very potent offensive capabilities if they do.

The cantrips from MI are definitely more valuable than goodberry once their damage die gets improved, especially since they combo with War Caster.

A hold person that succeeded rather than failed can absolutely be better than 40 hp of healing. Hold Person + Action Surge/Smite is one of the most potent early game combos. There's a lot of enemies that will die to that straight up.

[Vaz]

A DC(X+1) Hold Person that succeeded where a DC(X) would fail is much less likely to occur in 5e, thanks to Bounded Accuracy. You can still Hold Person at DC(X) and Goodberry.

[Willie the Duck]

I have a cleric that recently made 4th level and I need help trying to determine the best feat for me to choose.

I list some of the character's stats below for reference. My questions are...


Should I pick up Resilient (Constitution) to assist in my concentration checks?
If yes, should I follow that up with choosing +1 Str & +1 Con at 8th so that I can get a bump in hit points and be able to wear splint or plate?

I tend to end up tanking quite a bit. So being a touch less squishy is useful. But so is the higher spell attack & DC I'd end up having to delay.




The one thing no one seems to be asking is how you want to play this character and what kind of group you are in.

Which end of this scale are you finding yourself?:
I contribute a lot to the party, but end up running out of spells before we run out of encounters <------>I find it hard to contribute as much oomph per round as the rest of the party, but usually have enough spell slots.

The things about a cleric in melee combat is that with one attack, they are not going to compete on the damage stage without doing lots of extra damage or by doing damage with your bonus action and either your reaction or some other way to damage on your opponent's action. You do this by either 1) being a cleric with martial weapons and setting up a GWM or PAM/Sentinel setup, or 2) setting up the whole spiritual weapon, spirit guardians thingamajig.

Since you are not a War/Tempest cleric. Here are my advice, depending on how you answered my question:

If you find yourself contributing, but running out of spells end, you are likely in a campaign where the DM is trying to go BTB on the encounters per SR and per LR. Focus on ways to contribute outside of your spells, or to reduce the party resource attrition. Tough, healer, HAM, and enough Str for plate mail are all great plans.
If you find yourself on the not-contributing, but having plenty of spells end, you need to up your game on the combat spells. Focus on Wisdom. If you didn't have warcaster, I'd say go for your resilient:con and +1str +1 con plan. But since you have that, I wouldn't bother with the resilient thing until level 16, which may never come, so if you are going for +1 str, you may as well go +2 and pick up +1 hit/dmg with your mace.

[strangebloke]

A DC(X+1) Hold Person that succeeded where a DC(X) would fail is much less likely to occur in 5e, thanks to Bounded Accuracy. You can still Hold Person at DC(X) and Goodberry.

Wrong.

Bounded accuracy makes save spells as a whole worse, but it makes a +1 to the DC much better.

Bounded accuracy means that save spells have a lower chance of working.

So in 3.5e, the likelihood of a monster to fail against DC(X) might be 90%. The monster's likelihood to fail against DC(x+1) would them be 95%. So DC(x+1) is 5/90 or 1/18 more likely to cause a failure. Not a big deal.

In 5e, the likelihood of a monster to fail against DC(X) might be 50%. The monster's likelihood to fail against DC(x+1) would them be 55%. So DC(x+1) is 5/50 or 1/10 more likely to cause a failure. That's a significantly bigger deal.

[Vaz]

Eh, what? What's harder to beat the save of, +6, or +12?

[Citan]

Upcast. **** me. What are you smoking?

Also, you said that I had said it took Druid dip to make it worthwhile, which was you putting it in my mouth.


No. You take Goodberry for its ability to heal. No other ability, sans Tough provides the same amount of HP, at the cost of it being Ou Of Combat.

If you're a life cleric, and you want to heal, Goodberry as a Feat gives you the best healing possible. Look at the other abilities which provide HP. Tough? The only time Tough is ever better is by improving your Max HP, which only really affects your first combat and your OHKO threshold.

Instead, you can increase your DC on things you're not actually casting. As a Tank, why do you want increased DC? Perhaps Hold Person, but unless that DC15 Hold Person prevents 40HP damage more than a DC14 Hold Person, it doesn't outweigh Goodberry.
It's funny how you try to avoid my arguments by ignoring them altogether, because you know there is nothing you can do about it.
It takes around 2 "Life Goodberries" to best a single potion of Healing.
It takes around 3 or 4 "Life Goodberries" to best a Healer's Kit with healer feat (at level 4!). Would amount to 5-6 at level 20.
It takes around 2 "Life Goodberries" to best an Inspiring Leader (at level 4). Would amount to 5-6 at level 20.
For a SINGLE person.
Party have usually 4 people at least.
Potions cost 50 Gp each, when you start earning hundreds of gold pieces per adventuring day around character level 7 to 9 depending on campaign and DM (except mine, because I always make low-level magic / equipment campaigns, I like my players striving to get a bit of riches XD. But I know I'm not following guidelines here, at all).
You can cast Goodberry once per long rest.
You can use Inspiring Leader once per short rest, and can affect up to 6 creatures.
You can use Healer feat once per person every short rest, without any maximum upon the number of persons healed that way.

Do. The. Maths.
Even at level 4, it's actually the worst healing ability a Cleric could take as a feat.

You have five ASI for your whole life. Any other feat than "Goodberry as Magic Initiate" will be plain better once you are higher level while Goodberry will become worthless as you progress, because it's still the same amount of HP regained over a full day.

That's why it's only when dipping Druid (or grabbing it through Magic Secrets for that matter) that Life Goodberry is actually a good trick.
Because you can blow all your available slots on it before taking a long rest, then start the adventuring day with a great amount of berries, with growing efficiency as you progress (more slots, better level slots, so better healing per berry).
You can also start influencing the world if you'd like, for example saving people from dying of hunger in extremely arid zones, or becoming an official provider for a (small) marching army, etc.

As a Magic Initiate spell, it's only a decent addition to the cantrips you learn because you are a Life Cleric, and even then many other spells from Druid's list would be better choices overall depending on your character fluff or your party composition. But it's still an accessory. You pick Magic Initiate because you wanted the cantrips, especially Thorns Whip which is 100% complementary with Sacred Flame: melee, attack roll, and touch of control. If you wanted a healing feat, anything else will be better than a single cast of Goodberry per long rest.

[xroads]

Thanks all!

I’d never considered magic initiate before. That’s an interesting possibility.

So it sounds like the general consensus is to just increase wisdom for now. Resilient constitution might be a possibility, but wait til higher levels when the proficiency bonus is higher.

As to why I tank, it’s partly because of my playing style, partly because of my groups make-up. The group is made of mostly front-line fighter, but they tend to drop frequently. So I’ve developed a habit of charging in, drawing the enemies attention, then dodging (sometimes casting sanctuary).


The one thing no one seems to be asking is how you want to play this character and what kind of group you are in.

Which end of this scale are you finding yourself?:
I contribute a lot to the party, but end up running out of spells before we run out of encounters <------>I find it hard to contribute as much oomph per round as the rest of the party, but usually have enough spell slots.

The former. But I recently reforged the character with the DM's permission. Previously the character was 3rd level with 2 as a cleric and 1 as a fighter. So hopefully, now that the character is straight cleric and 4th level, I'll be able to make my spells last a bit longer.

[Master O'Laughs]

Also, check with your DM on what his ruling is for how many goodberries one can eat with an action. My DM said since a goodberry is probably the size of a grape you could easily eat 4 at a time. That means 16 hp of healing with my Life Cleric/Druid. At the end of the day I spend any unused spell slots on goodberries for the following day. At later levels if I have a 6th level spell slot that is 9 hp good berries 4 at a time for 36 health if needed. Best part is I hand them out so others can heal themselves (since I refuse to proactively heal them with spell slots).

[Citan]

Also, check with your DM on what his ruling is for how many goodberries one can eat with an action. My DM said since a goodberry is probably the size of a grape you could easily eat 4 at a time. That means 16 hp of healing with my Life Cleric/Druid. At the end of the day I spend any unused spell slots on goodberries for the following day. At later levels if I have a 6th level spell slot that is 9 hp good berries 4 at a time for 36 health if needed. Best part is I hand them out so others can heal themselves (since I refuse to proactively heal them with spell slots).
Hmm. That's probably on the wrong side of the houserule line XD, but it's a neat one. Making it actually much better than Healing Words as emergency healing since now people can heal themselves for a better result without you (although it does use their action and require them to be still able to move ^^). I may take it for my games because it helps keeping "blow many upcast slots on berries" relevant. While I'm actually a bit afraid it could end too strong (one could heal self for up to >25 hp in a single action, pretty strong). :)

I hope though that, since he went out of this way like this, he also made rules for those who would eat lots and lots of such berries in a short amount of time! After all, one berry is supposed to be enough to satiate you for a day. So, like Dragonball's Senzu, wouldn't a bodily reaction be expected if you eat many handfuls? :)

[xroads]

Also, check with your DM on what his ruling is for how many goodberries one can eat with an action. My DM said since a goodberry is probably the size of a grape you could easily eat 4 at a time. That means 16 hp of healing with my Life Cleric/Druid. At the end of the day I spend any unused spell slots on goodberries for the following day. At later levels if I have a 6th level spell slot that is 9 hp good berries 4 at a time for 36 health if needed. Best part is I hand them out so others can heal themselves (since I refuse to proactively heal them with spell slots).

Actually this one he's already answered from a previous session. It takes an action to eat 1 berry. On the bright side we can shove it into a fallen ally's gullet with an action.


I hope though that, since he went out of this way like this, he also made rules for those who would eat lots and lots of such berries in a short amount of time! After all, one berry is supposed to be enough to satiate you for a day. So, like Dragonball's Senzu, wouldn't a bodily reaction be expected if you eat many handfuls? :)

I'm picturing the the Blueberry Girl from the old "Willy Wonka & Chocolate Factory" movie. :smallbiggrin:

[JBPuffin]

If you already have warcaster then going for 18 and then 20 wis is probably the most sound. Also seriously dont be THE party tank in a group as a full caster class. Let the rogue/fighter/paladin/barbarian/monk tank.

What gets me about this comment is how OP cleric as a class is. It doesn't matter if they're a "full caster," they're a full caster who can take hits like a fighter and hit back just as hard. There's a difference, for some reason hopelessly bound up in the cleric's first appearance as a class, between arcane and divine full-casters which makes it okay for the cleric to have medium/heavy armor, simple/martial weapons, spells and class features where wizard and sorcerer get...spells. There's reason Clericzilla has been a thing for as long as optimization has had clerics to build. So, if they've gotta tank, there's no reason not to - take some hits and kill some dudes.

Edit: Wait, most of your party is frontline, but they keep dying? That's hilariously oxymoronic. I say getting Thorn Whip and either Gust or Earth Tremor to help you draw aggro off your party would be pretty sweet. Throw in Entangle or Thunderwave, and you've spent your feat on some serious BFC.

[Dudu]

Magic Initiate is my favorite feat. But I have some stuff to add.

Yes, Magic Initiate: Shillelagh, Thornwhip and, yes, Goodberry, is a solid choice. Shillelagh improves your at will damage, which will be low, but not negligible. Thornwhip is stellar. Goodberry is a good out of combat healing, and if your campaign deals with survival, hunger and et cetera, is of immense value.

That said, the best way to acquire those thing might be actually MC into druid. It's no issue for you, you have 16+ Wis.
In your case, it's hard to tell, since you intend on tanking, and that usually involves a metal armor, which druids abhor.

An overlooked Magic Initiate is... wizard. Minor Illusion, some other cantrip and... Find Familiar? Or maybe... shield?
It might be pretty good. Just an option to consider. But usally, Magic Initiate adds a lot to a character, but so does multiclassing. (and going pure cleric isn't even so optimal in the end).

[djreynolds]

I like spirit guardians, you have to wait for 5th level and it combos well with war caster.

You get into the thick of melee and then turn on spirit guardians, now the enemy can either stay there or leave and you can get in some pretty regular occurring AoOs.

Coupled with BB, now the enemy has to move out of spirit guardians or take damage, but if they do they get hit with BB's after damage

And war caster's advantage on con checks will help you keep spirit guardians up

[Citan]

I like spirit guardians, you have to wait for 5th level and it combos well with war caster.

You get into the thick of melee and then turn on spirit guardians, now the enemy can either stay there or leave and you can get in some pretty regular occurring AoOs.

Coupled with BB, now the enemy has to move out of spirit guardians or take damage, but if they do they get hit with BB's after damage

And war caster's advantage on con checks will help you keep spirit guardians up
And let's not forget Thorns Whip to catch them back into the area should they want to leave (one of the reasons I love Nature Cleric is that combo, paired with Sentinel or Warcaster) ;))

About dipping Druid though, let's not forget about the bit about them only wearing leather armor (which has raised endless debats already when multiclassing).

Before considering that, ask the DM if he can either...
- Waive that restriction, on the base it's "just a dip" (you are just a Cleric who found a way to study and learn Druidic knowledge one way or another).
- Or craft a tailored quest that would reward the character with a wood/leather armor magically enhanced to provide the same level of AC than a heavy armor.
If neither is an option, I'd suggest not dipping into Druid: losing ~3 AC for someone who wants to stick in the middle of enemies is a pretty serious issue for survivability imo. :smallbiggrin:


1. Goodberry is a good out of combat healing, and if your campaign deals with
2. survival, hunger and et cetera, is of immense value.

1. Confer previous posts: 1/day will be useless as long as you earn enough dough to buy handfuls of potions on a regular basis, which should happen very soon.
2.OP's Cleric will get Create and Food on next level which, while not a ritual and a 3rd level spell, creates enough food and water to sustain a large group for 24h (so you can cast the day before your big adventuring one) and does not even require material component. So it's less practical than Goodberry because bigger slot expense, but largely enough for most occurences. ;)

[Willie the Duck]

What gets me about this comment is how OP cleric as a class is. It doesn't matter if they're a "full caster," they're a full caster who can take hits like a fighter and hit back just as hard. There's a difference, for some reason hopelessly bound up in the cleric's first appearance as a class, between arcane and divine full-casters which makes it okay for the cleric to have medium/heavy armor, simple/martial weapons, spells and class features where wizard and sorcerer get...spells. There's reason Clericzilla has been a thing for as long as optimization has had clerics to build. So, if they've gotta tank, there's no reason not to - take some hits and kill some dudes.

I don't think anyone else has seen that in this edition (or really, any but 3). 5e Clerics take inordinate amounts of planning to become offense-machines. When the have the full spirit guardians + spiritual weapon (with well-protected concentration) and their one melee attack is strong, the they can hit like a fighter. That's pretty nova, though. It'd be interesting to hear how your experience differs.

[Master O'Laughs]

Hmm. That's probably on the wrong side of the houserule line XD, but it's a neat one. Making it actually much better than Healing Words as emergency healing since now people can heal themselves for a better result without you (although it does use their action and require them to be still able to move ^^). I may take it for my games because it helps keeping "blow many upcast slots on berries" relevant. While I'm actually a bit afraid it could end too strong (one could heal self for up to >25 hp in a single action, pretty strong). :)

I hope though that, since he went out of this way like this, he also made rules for those who would eat lots and lots of such berries in a short amount of time! After all, one berry is supposed to be enough to satiate you for a day. So, like Dragonball's Senzu, wouldn't a bodily reaction be expected if you eat many handfuls? :)

Yeah.... My DM also is currently letting is be a bonus action to do so as well. I fully imagine he will continue to limit its usefulness as I use higher slots on the good berries. He is still getting his DM chops wet and I am letting him make the whatever rulings he wants.

But due to what you are mentioning I am going to let him he know at the very least it should be an action to do so. He already is a little blown away by its power since I basically handed out healing potions to every one.

It also becomes a danger which we have yet to be punished for if you are out of slots and a night time encounter occurs.

[xroads]

For anyone who is curios, I ended up choosing to increase my character's wisdom to an 18.

Thanks all!

[Master O'Laughs]

For anyone who is curios, I ended up choosing to increase my character's wisdom to an 18.

Thanks all!

Always a solid choice! The greater decision is when is it best to get Wisdom to 20 and in what way?

[Beelzebubba]

What gets me about this comment is how OP cleric as a class is. It doesn't matter if they're a "full caster," they're a full caster who can take hits like a fighter and hit back just as hard.

Maybe at 1st level.


There's a difference, for some reason hopelessly bound up in the cleric's first appearance as a class, between arcane and divine full-casters which makes it okay for the cleric to have medium/heavy armor, simple/martial weapons, spells and class features where wizard and sorcerer get...spells.

Wizards have SUCH better spells that it takes all that other stuff to make a Cleric worthwhile.


There's reason Clericzilla has been a thing for as long as optimization has had clerics to build. So, if they've gotta tank, there's no reason not to - take some hits and kill some dudes.

Clericzilla didn't exist until 3.0.

Granted, depending how old you are, that may be a long time, but Clericzilla came about because they tried to *fix* the boring Cleric class from AD&D that nobody wanted to play because all you did was heal and repair everyone else after they had all the fun accomplishing everything.

[Willie the Duck]

Maybe at 1st level.

Wizards have SUCH better spells that it takes all that other stuff to make a Cleric worthwhile.

Clericzilla didn't exist until 3.0.

Granted, depending how old you are, that may be a long time, but Clericzilla came about because they tried to *fix* the boring Cleric class from AD&D that nobody wanted to play because all you did was heal and repair everyone else after they had all the fun accomplishing everything.

Even at 1st level, the cleric is unlikely (although possible, especially in point buy in groups where people tend to go with 15,15,15,8,8,8 distributions) to have as high a strength, and only has martial weapons if they choose to pick the 2 cleric types where that is their schtick.

And agreed. I doubt anyone would say that wizards got the short end of the stick in 5th edition, except in trying to make a point in that they think the cleric is OP (which I'm still really going to have to see some evidence for).

I will say that in 2e AD&D, you absolutely have to ask, "using what rules?" before you answer how powerful the cleric (or more broadly clerics+priests) is. PHB cleric was solid, although yes boring. Complete Book priests were actually weaker, although you could get some with things like weapon specialization. Warriors and Priests of the Realms had a few broken options (priests of Meilikki, for instance, had fighter style 18/## Str and could get more than +2hp/hd from high con, for no particular reason other than author favoritism, AFAICT). I think also in the Players Option series the point-buy priest ended up being one of the better choices.

Still, yeah, Clericzilla is a 3e isolated incident that should not be confused with an overall trend. JBP mentioned this coming from "cleric's first appearance as a class" and that is not remotely the case. OD&D is one of the places where the cleric was the weakest--reason: they could not use magic swords at a time when that was half of a high level fighter's whole deal. Having magic swords, usually intelligent swords that could cast spells for the wielder, were an integral part of being a high level Fighting Man. The other half of high level FM was leading an army, and that a cleric couldn't do either.