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Hackulator
2017-07-06, 07:07 PM
Druid, Cleric, Wizard or Sorcerer lists.

EDIT: Suggested Spells from the thread

Alter Self
Wings of Cover
Ghost Companion
Mass Snake's Swiftness
Silence
Invisibility
Glitterdust
Detect Thoughts
Tyche's Touch
Web
Blood Snow
Levitate
Minor Image

Thunder999
2017-07-06, 07:09 PM
Probably alter self.

Nifft
2017-07-06, 07:28 PM
Wings of Cover is pretty good. It's only for Sorcerers, though.

Temotei
2017-07-06, 07:38 PM
Ghost Companion is pretty strong for druids when they can cast it on themselves.

The Viscount
2017-07-06, 08:52 PM
On the druid list I'm going to go with mass snake's swiftness. All allies in a 20 foot radius make one melee or ranged attack. You can include yourself in the radius, so multiple characters get a free attack, including yourself. That's an extremely high return on action investment.

A close second for druid is kelpstrand for the ability to grapple foes without having to get into melee, and it scales well by giving you the ability to hit multiple.

Gruftzwerg
2017-07-06, 11:42 PM
I would add Silence to the Cleric list.

On the arcane side, Alter Self & Invisibility are pretty strong.

Arael666
2017-07-07, 12:10 AM
"best" is a pretty relative term. Most spells cover one particular situation, silence for example is amazing if you're fighting casters, but won't be of much help against an ogre. Thus, I believe you would have to provide us with a scenario so we could better pick the best spell, otherwise you're just gonna get a bunch of "I thin this spell is good/cool" responses.

StreamOfTheSky
2017-07-07, 01:34 AM
Sorcerer: Wings of Cover

Wiz or Sorc: Alter Self, Heroics, Wraithstrike, Ray of Stupidity, Glitterdust, or Arcane Turmoil (like dispel magic, it's eventually useless, but when you first get it, it's just invaluable)

Druid: Mass Snake's Swiftness or Kelpstrand

Cleric: Silence, Close Wounds, Hold Person (it's save or die if you coordinate w/ a melee ally), or Substitute Domain (so much flexibility!)

Hackulator
2017-07-07, 01:58 AM
Nobody has any love for "Detect Thoughts"?


"best" is a pretty relative term. Most spells cover one particular situation, silence for example is amazing if you're fighting casters, but won't be of much help against an ogre. Thus, I believe you would have to provide us with a scenario so we could better pick the best spell, otherwise you're just gonna get a bunch of "I thin this spell is good/cool" responses.

I thought it was pretty clear that was what I want.

eggynack
2017-07-07, 02:33 AM
My mind immediately went to acorn of far travel. I am strange in this respect.

Khedrac
2017-07-07, 02:43 AM
Web is also a very strong battlefield control spell with some utility uses.

That said, I think I prefer Glitterdust.

noob
2017-07-07, 02:51 AM
Sanctum earth spell spells of level 3 or 4 allows to have a much bigger list of best second level spells.

Mordaedil
2017-07-07, 02:53 AM
I really like "Sonic Weapon", because it's essentially giving me/the fighter an untyped damage boost to their weapon that isn't commonly resisted.

noce
2017-07-07, 03:45 AM
Tyche's Touch is a 24h buff to saves.
It has proven invaluable for our playstyle (up to one encounter per day).
It's generally a good buff at higher levels too, but it's a good spell especially for heavily multiclassed toons, like my cleric 4 splash on a Hammer of Moradin.

eggynack
2017-07-07, 04:19 AM
Tyche's Touch is a 24h buff to saves.
Ooh, that's a nice one. Love the semi-obscure bonus type.

Separately, kinda surprised that kelpstrand and mass snake's swiftness have seen mention but not blinding spittle. I've always thought of those three as connected at the hip, especially kelp and spittle. Other things that should maybe be in consideration include luminous armor, obscuring snow, and maybe creeping cold.

Crake
2017-07-07, 04:20 AM
I was going to say glitterdust because of it's sheer combat usefulness, but then I saw someone else say alter self, so I'm changing my answer to that, because thinking back, the amount of out of combat usefulness of alter self, and the kinds of things ive used it for to get away with stuff in the past is just unsurpassable.

I prefer the 3.5 version though, the pathfinder version is just basically a slightly better disguise self, in that it's actually a transmutation rather than an illusion. Some may consider that a downside though :smalltongue:


I thought it was pretty clear that was what I want.

Honestly, it wasn't, if you wanted to mean that, you should have named the thread "What's your favourite second level spell" or "What's the coolest second level spell in the game". The way you phrased it, it sounded like you were looking for the objectively best second level spell.

logic_error
2017-07-07, 05:04 AM
Not the best but a solid choice is heroics.

Hackulator
2017-07-07, 10:31 AM
I was going to say glitterdust because of it's sheer combat usefulness, but then I saw someone else say alter self, so I'm changing my answer to that, because thinking back, the amount of out of combat usefulness of alter self, and the kinds of things ive used it for to get away with stuff in the past is just unsurpassable.

I prefer the 3.5 version though, the pathfinder version is just basically a slightly better disguise self, in that it's actually a transmutation rather than an illusion. Some may consider that a downside though :smalltongue:



Honestly, it wasn't, if you wanted to mean that, you should have named the thread "What's your favourite second level spell" or "What's the coolest second level spell in the game". The way you phrased it, it sounded like you were looking for the objectively best second level spell.

I mean, I am getting what I wanted, so I feel my choice of phrasing was fine.

ericgrau
2017-07-07, 10:46 AM
My favorite for P.O. is web. Way better BC than glitterdust. Larger area, targets a lower save on average, good effect even on passed save. Only drawback is doesn't function on barren featureless plains, which is extremely rare.

Alter self is better for T.O. or just high OP because you can find splatbook forms far more powerful than core forms. But otherwise it tends to be weaker.

Wings of cover does seem better at higher level when you have extra 2nd level slots to blow.

prototype00
2017-07-07, 10:47 AM
Man, I've learnt quite a bit in this thread, Wings of Cover is amazing utility even when you're higher level.

I kind of want to have 9 threads for this line of discussion (obviously corresponding to the 9 levels). :) Would that be gauche, you think? (Or maybe just 5, most games only see that many anyway).

prototype00

Beheld
2017-07-07, 10:52 AM
Glitterdust. A thousand times more useful than Alter Self, and unlike Web it doesn't protect your enemies, web is a close second. Kelpstrand third probably.

Hackulator
2017-07-07, 11:00 AM
Glitterdust. A thousand times more useful than Alter Self, and unlike Web it doesn't protect your enemies, web is a close second. Kelpstrand third probably.

How is glitterdust a thousand times more useful than alter self?

ericgrau
2017-07-07, 11:05 AM
Glitterdust. A thousand times more useful than Alter Self, and unlike Web it doesn't protect your enemies, web is a close second. Kelpstrand third probably.

You don't really need to attack disabled enemies, they're the lowest priority. You kill all his buds first. Then cluster around foe and ready some actions. Also web only provides partial protection to enemy. It makes them more vulnerable to flaming sphere. You can use ranged attacks (magic or not), etc.

Most of all glitterdust has no effect on a passed save and small AOE. So often you just waste your turn. Web still helps a ton. That has made the hugest difference for me in practice, trying both spells. Plus blind guys can still fight and hit half the time (it's easy to locate a noisy foe or melee attacker for square choice btw). And at the most useful levels before you have better spells it lasts 3-4 rounds.


How is glitterdust a thousand times more useful than alter self?
Depends on optimization. Alter self into a core troglodyte at level 3-4, meh. Wow +6 AC, pretty impressive but would you like to contribute next turn? Fancy splatbook alter self forms are a lot better. 10 min/CL flight off the top of my head, and maybe some powerful combat forms I don't know about.

Nifft
2017-07-07, 11:13 AM
I mean, I am getting what I wanted, so I feel my choice of phrasing was fine.

I've noticed that out here on the Internet, some people just feel the need to criticize. Don't take it personally.

== == ==

Anyway, back on topic:

Blood Snow, level 2 for Druids & Clerics, pass a Fort save or suffer 1d2 Con drain each round, and be Nauseated for the duration. Utterly brutal in the hands of an NPC.

Cloud of Bewilderment is Stinking Cloud except one spell level early. It's an example of a blatantly bad design decision, therefore it's a great spell choice.

Drifts of the Shalm is okay by itself, but if you can use it to summon snow and then cast Blood Snow on it, then it becomes a top pick.

Evergreen (from Frostburn) grants Cold immunity for 1 hour per level, but only to plants and plant creatures. If you can find a way to make this relevant to your party members and/or cohorts, it can be disproportionately strong for its level.

Knock, oh look your iconic class niche is one of my level 2 spells.

Leap Into Animal (Magic of Eberron) allows a Druid to take control of the actions of a willing animal, like your Animal Companion. If you have the Mark of Handling, you can take control of any animal. It's situational, but in the right situation it's a way to gain access to a form that punches arbitrarily far above your level.

Whispercast (from Lords of Madness) is a fantastic safeguard against restraint, and if you prepare it with the Silent Spell metamagic it allows you to violate even more rules.

Beheld
2017-07-07, 11:22 AM
How is glitterdust a thousand times more useful than alter self?

You win thousands of fights with Glitterdust. Alter Self may, depending on how your DM feels about letting you pull out random dragonlance races or whatever, give you a fly speed and burrow speed through only dirt two levels earlier than you would otherwise get them, but most people can't effectively use those to do anything more impressive than just winning a fight.


You don't really need to attack disabled enemies, they're the lowest priority. You kill all his buds first. Then cluster around foe and ready some actions. Also web only provides partial protection to enemy. It makes them more vulnerable to flaming sphere. You can use ranged attacks (magic or not), etc.

Most of all glitterdust has no effect on a passed save and small AOE. So often you just waste your turn. Web still helps a ton. That has made the hugest difference for me in practice, trying both spells. Plus blind guys can still fight and hit half the time (it's easy to locate a noisy foe or melee attacker for square choice btw). And at the most useful levels before you have better spells it lasts 3-4 rounds.

You can't use ranged attacks against enemies with total cover. If you Web one enemy, and the other enemy you do nothing to, yeah, then you can totally fight one enemy, and then the other one after, but with neither crippled, but then if you only fight one enemy, you would rather have glitterdust, and if you cast glitterdust on both, you might just win right there.

They aren't more vulnerable to flaming sphere, Flaming Sphere means you cast Web to do 2d4 fire damage and not web someone. At that point, you should have cast Burning Hands instead.

Hackulator
2017-07-07, 11:53 AM
You win thousands of fights with Glitterdust. Alter Self may, depending on how your DM feels about letting you pull out random dragonlance races or whatever, give you a fly speed and burrow speed through only dirt two levels earlier than you would otherwise get them, but most people can't effectively use those to do anything more impressive than just winning a fight.




You do realize that there are things other than combat in D&D, right?

ericgrau
2017-07-07, 11:53 AM
You can't use ranged attacks against enemies with total cover. If you Web one enemy, and the other enemy you do nothing to, yeah, then you can totally fight one enemy, and then the other one after, but with neither crippled, but then if you only fight one enemy, you would rather have glitterdust, and if you cast glitterdust on both, you might just win right there.

They aren't more vulnerable to flaming sphere, Flaming Sphere means you cast Web to do 2d4 fire damage and not web someone. At that point, you should have cast Burning Hands instead.
Web doesn't give total cover for all practical targeting, check description. Flaming sphere removes only 1 square of web and leaves the rest intact. That removed square was still effective the round before being removed. I've actually used it to great effect this way. Repeatedly. Glitterdust was hit and miss when I tried it; mostly miss because anything that matters is more likely to pass its save. And blindness isn't win, it's 50% miss chance. Many DMs forget this. There are some conditions involved to get the right square but they're pretty easy to meet against at least 1 foe who's active in combat. You may as well say web is auto-win no matter what whether the foe saves or not, which isn't true either. But it still does much more than glitterdust.

EDIT note: clarified before reading/refreshing to see next post.

Beheld
2017-07-07, 11:57 AM
Web doesn't give total cover.

The web spell disagrees with you


If you have at least 20 feet of web between you, it provides total cover.

ericgrau
2017-07-07, 12:08 PM
Which is never for practical purposes.

mabriss lethe
2017-07-07, 12:21 PM
Gonna go with alter self. Somewhat long duration, flexible options for both in/out of combat uses.

Beheld
2017-07-07, 12:23 PM
Which is never for practical purposes.

You are casting a spell webbed between two surfaces. Often times those are walls. If you throw down a web on a group, some of them are going to have total cover, some of them are going to be able to move back behind more web, and have total cover.

Calthropstu
2017-07-07, 12:33 PM
Overall best spells?
Invisibility or Levitate. Both of these spells are infinitely useful both in and out of combat. They have such a wide array of uses that none of the others can compare.

Hackulator
2017-07-07, 12:44 PM
Overall best spells?
Invisibility or Levitate. Both of these spells are infinitely useful both in and out of combat. They have such a wide array of uses that none of the others can compare.

I'm not sure that levitate is that good in a world where almost everyone takes fly withing the next few levels.

SirNibbles
2017-07-07, 01:50 PM
I'm a big fan of Blindness/Deafness. It makes taking captives extremely easy and you can dismiss it whenever you want.

ericgrau
2017-07-07, 05:15 PM
I'm not sure that levitate is that good in a world where almost everyone takes fly withing the next few levels.
I thought the same thing until I tried it. Levitate is beyond amazing with or without fly because it can target other creatures and objects at range. It's the "I got the macguffin / PC / NPC in need!" button. Oh yeah and sometimes you can levitate yourself too I guess.

Levitate and invisibility aren't my favorite to prepare at level 3 but they're a couple of my favorites at higher levels and/or to scroll. Invisibility is my favorite to wand because you can spam it so much to bypass challenges for the whole party. And then save the wand when not needed so it costs you nothing the rest of the time. Dedicating 4-5 slots to prepare it daily is difficult OTOH, since you don't know if you'll need to spam it or not. Unless you're a spontaneous caster or did a ton of pre-planning.

Jormengand
2017-07-07, 08:40 PM
Alter self gets my vote too, and also earns the title of the second-level spell I would most want to use in real life.

ericgrau
2017-07-07, 09:00 PM
I've noticed that out here on the Internet, some people just feel the need to criticize. Don't take it personally.

== == ==

Anyway, back on topic:

Blood Snow, level 2 for Druids & Clerics, pass a Fort save or suffer 1d2 Con drain each round, and be Nauseated for the duration. Utterly brutal in the hands of an NPC.

Cloud of Bewilderment is Stinking Cloud except one spell level early. It's an example of a blatantly bad design decision, therefore it's a great spell choice.

Drifts of the Shalm is okay by itself, but if you can use it to summon snow and then cast Blood Snow on it, then it becomes a top pick.

Evergreen (from Frostburn) grants Cold immunity for 1 hour per level, but only to plants and plant creatures. If you can find a way to make this relevant to your party members and/or cohorts, it can be disproportionately strong for its level.

Knock, oh look your iconic class niche is one of my level 2 spells.

Leap Into Animal (Magic of Eberron) allows a Druid to take control of the actions of a willing animal, like your Animal Companion. If you have the Mark of Handling, you can take control of any animal. It's situational, but in the right situation it's a way to gain access to a form that punches arbitrarily far above your level.

Whispercast (from Lords of Madness) is a fantastic safeguard against restraint, and if you prepare it with the Silent Spell metamagic it allows you to violate even more rules.

Blood snow seems super great when in the snow, but comboing it with drifts of the shalm doesn't seem so hot. It's a 2 round combo and the AOE of drifts of the shalm seems really small and likely to be exited during that 1 round. It would actually be better if drifts of the shalm didn't do 3 points of cold damage a round because then unwary foes might not immediately leave the AOE.

Leap into animal requires a willing animal so that kills the cheese pretty hard. If a super powerful animal's already your friend, chances are he's already outclassing your party in combat without you piloting him.

Cloud of Bewilderment's AOE and duration makes it far worse than stinking cloud, but still so-so for a 2nd level spell. Kinda like a weaker version of color spray but without the HD cap.

At first I thought, "Wow, whispercast is amazing. I don't think I'd ever take still spell again." But then the issue with grappling is making two DC 22+ concentration checks in a row. Let's see level 10 to be generous, 16+2=18 con to be generous. +17 concentration mod. DC 22 + DC 25. Roughly a 50:50 chance of success, or you waste your turn. And teleport-type spells to just escape instead of fighting don't need it. Come to think of it I'd never take still spell without a specific tactic in mind and/or the combat casting feat. Nor this spell without combat casting. Even then a feat is a lot to blow unless I plan on being grappled regularly. I guess it's pretty sweet at level 15+ when you're auto-passing your concentration checks and would rather fight than escape the grapple. But then, how'd you get grappled at level 15+?

Knock is useless. A wand of silent knock is mildly useful, but costs 11,250 gp. I think the point of discussing this spell in forums is to say "I can replace one of another class' most minor abilities if I dump a feat and the entirety of my wizard power into preparing silent knock in all my spell slots. Therefore that class is obsolete and wizards are broken." Um, maybe wizards are strong, but this certainly isn't why.

So... um, yes, blood snow is super strong if you're in the snow. Nice choice. Evergreen seems like nice combo fuel too.

Hackulator
2017-07-07, 09:06 PM
Holy crap, Blood Snow might be one of the most OP spells for its level I've ever seen, if you are in a situation where it works. Con damage per round AND Nausea? I would straight up heighten that to 9 and kill everyone. Widened its pretty much save or die.....

Frostburn was just a terrible book that never should have been released.

Nifft
2017-07-07, 09:57 PM
Leap into animal requires a willing animal so that kills the cheese pretty hard. If a super powerful animal's already your friend, chances are he's already outclassing your party in combat without you piloting him. Keep reading, and see my note about Mark of Handling.

Again, super situational, but very strong in that (rather unlikely) situation.


At first I thought, "Wow, whispercast is amazing. I don't think I'd ever take still spell again." But then the issue with grappling is making two DC 22+ concentration checks in a row. Let's see level 10 to be generous, 16+2=18 con to be generous. +17 concentration mod. DC 22 + DC 25. Roughly a 50:50 chance of success, or you waste your turn. And teleport-type spells to just escape instead of fighting don't need it. Come to think of it I'd never take still spell without a specific tactic in mind and/or the combat casting feat. Nor this spell without combat casting. Combat Casting is worthless if you're grappled, so you need to re-examine your tactical analysis.

Whispercast is a Swift action spell, so casting defensively is never necessary to use it.


Knock is useless. A wand of silent knock is mildly useful, but costs 11,250 gp. I think the point of discussing this spell in forums is to say "I can replace one of another class' most minor abilities if I dump a feat and the entirety of my wizard power into preparing silent knock in all my spell slots. Therefore that class is obsolete and wizards are broken." Um, maybe wizards are strong, but this certainly isn't why.
Actually it is why. It's in the definition of T1.

Wizards have spells that can replace major class features of other classes.

Wizards get to cast spells like knock and also all sorts of other spells which do totally different things.

You probably wouldn't walk into the Great Locked Door Maze of Minotower with nothing but knock prepared, because your bound demon servitor could just kick them all open, but the point is: if you had the need to use Disable Device, Escape Artist, or Open Lock, you can instead use this 2nd level spell, because that's who you are: the guy with a spell for everything.


Holy crap, Blood Snow might be one of the most OP spells for its level I've ever seen, if you are in a situation where it works. Con damage per round AND Nausea? I would straight up heighten that to 9 and kill everyone. Widened its pretty much save or die.....

Frostburn was just a terrible book that never should have been released.

Yeah, Blood Snow is amazing, though enemies don't usually live long enough to know the difference between drain and damage.

If you mix it with Drifts of the Shalm, you can turn BFC spells like entangle & impeding stones into TPK spells.

At higher levels, combo with solid fog & black tentacles, or even forcecage.

It's an incredibly nasty pair of spells.

eggynack
2017-07-07, 11:13 PM
Evergreen seems like nice combo fuel too.
It seems cool, though I still don't know where it's particularly good. Plant companion seems reasonable, but I don't recall good ways to get plant type easily. Might not technically matter though, because the spell weirdly specifies that it hits things with the plant subtype, which is, far as I can tell, not a thing. I don't think type weirdly carries over into an implicit subtype thing. I mean, it's obviously a typo, but it's also a typo that wasn't fixed by errata, so not precisely ideal.

As for leap into animal, I'm not particularly into it, owing to the duration, and the fact you lose spells. Even with the mark, the duration means you either have to be carting around an unwilling animal longterm, which is vaguely plausible I suppose, or you need to find particularly powerful animals in the moment (or around the moment). And, if the animal isn't super powerful, it seems pretty likely that just casting spells is going to be better than being an animal. Especially given that you can already be an animal through wild shape in two levels. And there's even a save involved. It just feels like there are so many stipulations, and you're left with a really situational spell that tops out at maybe being particularly good if there happens to be a t-rex nearby. And keep in mind, there probably won't be a t-rex nearby at levels before wild shape. Oh, and mark of handling kinda sucks for a druid, just by way of spell overlap.

StreamOfTheSky
2017-07-08, 01:58 AM
Man, I've learnt quite a bit in this thread, Wings of Cover is amazing utility even when you're higher level.

It's a completely broken spell, similar to how Abrupt Jaunt is horribly broken. I nerf the heck out of both, and suggest other DMs do the same.
It (and Abrupt Jaunt) not only remain useful at higher levels...it actually becomes stronger because you're auto-negating much more powerful/costly attacks/spells with what is still the same 2nd level spell slot (or 1st level class feature that never improves w/ more class levels for Abrupt Jaunt).
The first and only long term campaign where I used Wings of Cover in its full glory (the DM of that game was a friend who had abused it himself in a prior game he played in w/ me, so turn about is fair play :smalltongue:), I'd specifically look to use it to foil much higher level spells and gloat about the fact that my foe had just wasted a standard action and 6th level slot to fizzle out against my immediate action 2nd level slot spell.

ericgrau
2017-07-08, 09:22 AM
Keep reading, and see my note about Mark of Handling.

Again, super situational, but very strong in that (rather unlikely) situation.

Combat Casting is worthless if you're grappled, so you need to re-examine your tactical analysis.

Whispercast is a Swift action spell, so casting defensively is never necessary to use it.

...

Yeah, Blood Snow is amazing, though enemies don't usually live long enough to know the difference between drain and damage.

If you mix it with Drifts of the Shalm, you can turn BFC spells like entangle & impeding stones into TPK spells.

At higher levels, combo with solid fog & black tentacles, or even forcecage.

It's an incredibly nasty pair of spells.
Leap into animal: Ah the last line of the spell I see it now. The animal still gets a will save, and if he passes the spell rules say he feels a hostile mental force. Seems like playing with fire. But if he gets a lucky low roll or if he's confused who the hostility is coming from and your retry works you could luck into a powerful pawn... for 1 min/level. "What that really worked this time? Oh wow. Um, hurry, hurry, hurry, find something to kill!"

whispercast:


Benefit
You get a +4 bonus on Concentration checks made to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability while on the defensive or while you are grappling or pinned.

Combat casting helps you cast when you are grappling.

You need a nasty DC 20+spell level concentration check to cast while grappled. Swift spells prevent you from provoking an attack of opportunity but I saw nothing in my SRD about negating the grapple concentration check. Likewise casting on the defensive is for avoiding an attack of opportunity, not avoiding the grappling concentration check.

Drifts of the Shalm: So first you BFC the foe, then drifts him, then blood snow him. In 3 rounds fights are usually over or in cleanup-phase regardless. With direct damage. Just BFC him and focus on his buddies, or BFC + direct damage him with your party if he's the only one left.

Knock is still useless and should never be prepared. You won't use it 99% of the time, and even if you do it doesn't help much compared to other options that you have already.

GilesTheCleric
2017-07-08, 01:23 PM
I've seen some good picks through the thread. I am a little confused as to what the actual point of the thread is given the OP's explanation, but whatever, I guess. My pick: Benediction. It allows for a dischargeable reroll you can grant to an ally. The duration is great.

Kaleph
2017-07-08, 01:53 PM
Did someone already mention rope trick?

Nifft
2017-07-08, 03:38 PM
Leap into animal: Ah the last line of the spell I see it now. The animal still gets a will save, and if he passes the spell rules say he feels a hostile mental force. Yep, and even in ideal conditions it's situational as hell.

However, the benefit is unbounded. There is no limit on how good an animal you can control.

In theory, it's one of the best spells. In practice, I wouldn't bother to prepare it. "The best 2nd level spell" covers both, so I'm presenting the spell.


[Combat casting helps you cast when you are grappling. Ah, so it does! Thank you, I had been doing that wrong.


You need a nasty DC 20+spell level concentration check to cast while grappled. Swift spells prevent you from provoking an attack of opportunity but I saw nothing in my SRD about negating the grapple concentration check. Likewise casting on the defensive is for avoiding an attack of opportunity, not avoiding the grappling concentration check. I suspect you're right about this, too.


Drifts of the Shalm: So first you BFC the foe, then drifts him, then blood snow him. In 3 rounds fights are usually over or in cleanup-phase regardless. With direct damage. Just BFC him and focus on his buddies, or BFC + direct damage him with your party if he's the only one left. Well, no, what you do is you and your party cast all 3-4 spells in one round. Plus grease and/or web and/or sleet storm and/or solid fog and/or black tentacles, and/or cetera.


Did someone already mention rope trick?

Ctrl+F says nobody did.

Good call, it's a nice genre-breaker once you're high enough level to camp inside.

gooddragon1
2017-07-08, 04:50 PM
Gonna go with alter self. Somewhat long duration, flexible options for both in/out of combat uses.

Alter Self, always a good decision.

Anthrowhale
2017-07-08, 07:37 PM
Obscuring Snow(L2) seems pretty notable to me in combination with Snowsight (L1). It's total concealment for the whole party that defeats everything except for an obscure spell (Snowsight).

noce
2017-07-09, 02:55 AM
Did someone already mention rope trick?


Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

By the time rope trick lasts 8 hours, it's very likely at least a member of the party has handy haversack or a bag of holding, so according to me this spell is worthless.

eggynack
2017-07-09, 03:06 AM
By the time rope trick lasts 8 hours, it's very likely at least a member of the party has handy haversack or a bag of holding, so according to me this spell is worthless.
Technically speaking, neither a bag of holding nor a haversack is extradimensional space. I think. Bag of holding specifies that it is a nondimensional space, and haversack specifies that it operates as a bag of holding does. From my search through the wondrous items in the SRD, only two included extradimensional space, portable hole and mirror of life tapping. Not the biggest loss.

Coretron03
2017-07-09, 03:30 AM
By the time rope trick lasts 8 hours, it's very likely at least a member of the party has handy haversack or a bag of holding, so according to me this spell is worthless.

Its also pretty common (at my table at least) to extend it to get it to last 10 hours at level 5, letting you rest in it 3 levels earlier and giving extra time for spell prep for the casters.

Eldariel
2017-07-09, 08:09 AM
Bard spell Harmonize is pretty cool. Makes starting Bardic Music a move action: enabless doublecasting on all subsequent turns. Particularly stacking Inspires, Dragonfire, etc. And Stormsinger is whole another topic with it

ericgrau
2017-07-09, 08:30 AM
Obscuring Snow(L2) seems pretty notable to me in combination with Snowsight (L1). It's total concealment for the whole party that defeats everything except for an obscure spell (Snowsight).
Oh yeah forgot about that combo. More notable is that they're both hour/level so this combo is far less tricky than some other combos to pull off in practice. I think this belongs way high up on the list.

Re: Rope trick. There have been multiple large threads debating this without a concrete conclusion. I think in the end part of it is RAW/RAI/RAFAQ and part of it is up to the DM. Because even RAI/RAFAQ is fuzzy on the matter. Let's just say it's a good spell regardless but we're uncertain about the particular level of goodness and move on. If you DM then I totally encourage coming up with the multi-dimensional mechanics of it all (if any) and determining NPC countermeasures (if any). But much of that will be pure opinion.

Zaq
2017-07-09, 11:48 AM
I'm not going to say that it's objectively better than Alter Self or Invisibility or Glitterdust or Mass Snake's Swiftness or anything like that, but I remember getting WAY more use out of Linked Perception than I ever would have expected. Ideally you combine it with Keen-Eared Scout or something similar, which of course is another argument against it being "the best" on its own, but still, giving the entire party a gigantic untyped bonus to Spot and Listen is something that is far more useful than you might initially think. Especially when you consider that it works with familiars and pets and mounts and so on. (It's very similar to Fell Conspiracy, which is one of my favorite feats, and wouldn't you know it, they stack!)

Alter Self probably gives more utility overall, of course, but still, it's a fun spell. I think I like it so much because it doesn't look quite as useful as it is, so it's very surprising how effective it can be if you're not used to it.

Of course, I'm not the first person to say this, but the "best" spell is really the one you need right then and there. Remove Paralysis doesn't seem like the "best" spell until a key party member gets paralyzed at a really bad time. Gust of Wind isn't that great until it's the only thing you've got that can disperse a swarm or a magical fog effect that's ruining your day. Undetectable Alignment is useless unless you're trying to infiltrate a group with alignment-detecting magic, at which point it's indispensable. I'm not exactly saying anything world-shakingly profound here—we all know this already. That's part of what makes spellcasters so dominant in this game—they've got access to all kinds of situational tricks that can be leveraged into being beautifully effective for a certain scenario. (And, you know, plenty of all-purpose good stuff too, but you know what I mean.)

Tetra Vortexx
2017-07-09, 12:51 PM
Wings of Cover and Alterself

Nifft
2017-07-09, 01:52 PM
Obscuring Snow(L2) seems pretty notable to me in combination with Snowsight (L1). It's total concealment for the whole party that defeats everything except for an obscure spell (Snowsight).

That is a great combo -- and I think it's also a valid setup for Blood Snow.

Sorry, Drifts of the Shalm, I've found someone sexier.

Hackulator
2017-07-09, 01:57 PM
That is a great combo -- and I think it's also a valid setup for Blood Snow.

Sorry, Drifts of the Shalm, I've found someone sexier.

Pretty sure no, as Blood Snow requires a "snow field" which is snow covered ground, while obscuring snow just creates snow floating around in the air.

Scorponok
2017-07-09, 02:47 PM
All the ones mentioned here are great but I'm gonna go with something different - and that is Minor Image.

It's a bit of an underwhelming pick, but that's because Silent Image, from the previous level is so great. Except things that more intelligent NPCs would question due to the illusion making none of the natural sounds they're suppose make now get sound effects.

With this, you could pretty much create the illusion you're a lot more powerful of a spellcaster than you are by recreating the illusion you are casting the spell. You can show people you have a huge pet dragon. You can summon creatures so terrible people think you're a high level druid. Like Silent Image, it's really only limited by your imagination.

Nifft
2017-07-09, 02:53 PM
Pretty sure no, as Blood Snow requires a "snow field" which is snow covered ground, while obscuring snow just creates snow floating around in the air.

Valid point -- the spell just talks about "vapor".

Calthropstu
2017-07-09, 08:38 PM
I'm not sure that levitate is that good in a world where almost everyone takes fly withing the next few levels.

Ever seen an inanimate object make a fly check?
You can levitate bodies, unconcious companions, large objects... put a bunch of levitates on the party plus one fly spell and move the entire group, use it to make yourself look super strong, use it to threaten helpless captives, use it to get out of melee range... sure, fly trumps it as a form of off the ground maneuvering, but levitate does not go away. You don't fall if knocked unconcious or stunned, you don't fall for any reason other than dispelling or ending. As a second level spell, it is tough to beat with both combat and out of combat versatility. It's useful for creating traps, clearing debris, getting out of tight spots, going up cliffs and many other uses.

I will accept alter self as a top contender as well since it can grant many different abilities including flight and burrowing.

Soranar
2017-07-09, 09:33 PM
Ever seen an inanimate object make a fly check?
You can levitate bodies, unconcious companions, large objects... put a bunch of levitates on the party plus one fly spell and move the entire group, use it to make yourself look super strong, use it to threaten helpless captives, use it to get out of melee range... sure, fly trumps it as a form of off the ground maneuvering, but levitate does not go away. You don't fall if knocked unconcious or stunned, you don't fall for any reason other than dispelling or ending. As a second level spell, it is tough to beat with both combat and out of combat versatility. It's useful for creating traps, clearing debris, getting out of tight spots, going up cliffs and many other uses.

I will accept alter self as a top contender as well since it can grant many different abilities including flight and burrowing.

Even with the weaker types (like humanoid) alter self is very very good

-long duration
-no need for more than 5 caster level to get the most out of it, no need to waste metamagics on it either
-extremely versatile. Simply having access to alter self (with enough spell slots) makes a class tier 3 IMO
-it gets even better if you have one of the stronger types (construct, abberration, outsider)

Don't get me wrong wings of cover and other level 2 spells are good too but none have that kind of versatility

Hackulator
2017-07-09, 10:12 PM
All the ones mentioned here are great but I'm gonna go with something different - and that is Minor Image.

It's a bit of an underwhelming pick, but that's because Silent Image, from the previous level is so great. Except things that more intelligent NPCs would question due to the illusion making none of the natural sounds they're suppose make now get sound effects.

With this, you could pretty much create the illusion you're a lot more powerful of a spellcaster than you are by recreating the illusion you are casting the spell. You can show people you have a huge pet dragon. You can summon creatures so terrible people think you're a high level druid. Like Silent Image, it's really only limited by your imagination.

I don't think it's underwhelming at all, it's just very dependent on the DM and how much he lets you get away with, but it's a valid entry.