New Style of play for Large Groups

[HopefulDMing]

Earlier today, I thought of an interesting idea, what if I had a large player group and created a new style of play to suit the group size? So I created a style where half the group is villains, while the other half is heroes.

The villains would be the first group to focus on, they may even start out as heroes, but they somehow have to flee into a dungeon. There, they would defeat the old dungeon head, and become the villains at the end of a dungeon. They would start out with a bare bones force of Orcs, Kobolds and the like, but they would build up the dungeon, adding traps, special rooms, and more powerful monsters as time progresses. Even moving to bigger and different dungeons.

The heroes would be in a town near the dungeon that perhaps the villains raided for supplies, and due to their heroic natures, or promise of reward, have to delve into the dungeon. They would venture into the dungeon designed by the villain players, and try to defeat them.

I see a few problems with this system. 1. How would I balance this system to keep the heroes from getting overwhelmed? 2. This system would need to be improved for long term play, as it's nature is more "one shotty" than other ideas I came up with. 3. What if the heroes die? How could I stop meta gaming and keep them involved? I don't think it would be fun if they spent loads of disposable level 1 characters to beat a dungeon. 4. How do I keep the Villains from being cheap with dungeon design?

[follacchioso]

Would you play all of this simultaneously, in the same room? Would you have one or two masters?

[HopefulDMing]

Would you play all of this simultaneously, in the same room? Would you have one or two masters?

You would separate the heroes and villains for the first part of the session. Where the villains prepare their dungeon layout with the DM, and they can plan out events that may happen, while the heroes do stuff you normally do like buying materials.

You could have just one master, but two would lighten the workload, but they would have to convene on certain decisions.

[Biggstick]

This is definitely the type of game that you would need two game masters for in my mind. You need to not let Players just sit idle in the other room while you go work with the other group.

I really like the idea of this, but I think it would lead to PvP. Which as long as your Players know this and are fine with it, then it will be ok. I know when I'm coming to a D&D table, I'm looking to work together with the other Players at the table to accomplish a goal and not stab each other in the back.

And honestly, what truly keeps the villains and the heroes from working together? The motivations have to be pretty extreme for when these two parties come together in confrontation to keep them from simply putting down their weapons and talking through the situation, especially since it's a Player instead of the DM playing the evil character. I think what you'll end up with is another huge group in which evil PC's are working together with good PC's to do whatever it is that you as the DM have set in front of them.

[HopefulDMing]

This is definitely the type of game that you would need two game masters for in my mind. You need to not let Players just sit idle in the other room while you go work with the other group.

I really like the idea of this, but I think it would lead to PvP. Which as long as your Players know this and are fine with it, then it will be ok. I know when I'm coming to a D&D table, I'm looking to work together with the other Players at the table to accomplish a goal and not stab each other in the back.

And honestly, what truly keeps the villains and the heroes from working together? The motivations have to be pretty extreme for when these two parties come together in confrontation to keep them from simply putting down their weapons and talking through the situation, especially since it's a Player instead of the DM playing the evil character. I think what you'll end up with is another huge group in which evil PC's are working together with good PC's to do whatever it is that you as the DM have set in front of them.

I saw the situations as the villain characters being the villains at the end of a dungeon that perhaps raided a nearby village the heroes were in or killed someone important to their backstory and they are seeking vengeance. Their exact motivations would have to come from the characters themselves.

EDIT: Though perhaps the villains and heroes could come together and pool resources to create some Uber-Dungeon that they could seize with their monster armies.

[Beastrolami]

I think you need to closely monitor resource management. In my opinion the villains will have the upper hand, as they have a base, and minions to control. Especially if you give control of those monsters to the villainous players, they will find ways to hurt the heroes in unexpected ways.

If you ever have the heroes raid the dungeon, the villains will come up with far more devious traps than a normal DM because they have no obligation to be "fair" to the other players. It's a cool idea, and if your groups go along with it, it could be really fun. Just be careful that the villains aren't stuck playing logistics simulator, and meticulously planning the hero's deaths. You also need to make sure the heroes don't have a fun lighthearted adventure when the villains have a perfect death trap prepared for them the second they step foot into the dungeon.

Just some thoughts.

[Beaureguard]

I think your description of one shotty pretty well sums up the way I feel about this. I think it could be a lot of fun to do once; it's a fun idea that may work well, or may not, perfect for a one shot. Any longer than that and all sorts of problems start to pop up. The biggest one to me would be that as a potential player I'd expect lots of down time. I don't mind long games, but I hate feeling like I'm wasting my time.

It sounds like your best solution may be to just run two games. You could still use your concept of a good party and an evil party, and maybe even have them in the same world. Track days passed, who gets to goals first, etc. Make sure both parties find out about a number of powerful artifacts or something and then make them choose which they go for first. If the other team is there first, they see the evidence and miss out. If they take too many long rests, they may fall behind. Then at certain points, or maybe only at the end, you pull both groups together for massive RP sessions. You'd have to use some skill to figure out how/why they're not working together and how a "winner" is going to be determined without straight out party annihilation (not usually popular).

[HopefulDMing]

I think you need to closely monitor resource management. In my opinion the villains will have the upper hand, as they have a base, and minions to control. Especially if you give control of those monsters to the villainous players, they will find ways to hurt the heroes in unexpected ways.

If you ever have the heroes raid the dungeon, the villains will come up with far more devious traps than a normal DM because they have no obligation to be "fair" to the other players. It's a cool idea, and if your groups go along with it, it could be really fun. Just be careful that the villains aren't stuck playing logistics simulator, and meticulously planning the hero's deaths. You also need to make sure the heroes don't have a fun lighthearted adventure when the villains have a perfect death trap prepared for them the second they step foot into the dungeon.

Just some thoughts.

I was always thinking the villains should be slightly better off than the heroes, making each crawl a challenging experience, and I would likely hold off any powerful traps and monsters until the heroes are prepared to deal with them, for example, there should be a fairly obvious tripwire anyone with an ok perception should see it. But as time goes on, the villain wizard may place obscuring runes on other traps, hiding them more thoroughly.

[HopefulDMing]

I think your description of one shotty pretty well sums up the way I feel about this. I think it could be a lot of fun to do once; it's a fun idea that may work well, or may not, perfect for a one shot. Any longer than that and all sorts of problems start to pop up. The biggest one to me would be that as a potential player I'd expect lots of down time. I don't mind long games, but I hate feeling like I'm wasting my time.

It sounds like your best solution may be to just run two games. You could still use your concept of a good party and an evil party, and maybe even have them in the same world. Track days passed, who gets to goals first, etc. Make sure both parties find out about a number of powerful artifacts or something and then make them choose which they go for first. If the other team is there first, they see the evidence and miss out. If they take too many long rests, they may fall behind. Then at certain points, or maybe only at the end, you pull both groups together for massive RP sessions. You'd have to use some skill to figure out how/why they're not working together and how a "winner" is going to be determined without straight out party annihilation (not usually popular).

What do you mean by "why they're not working together"?

[Moosoculars]

I think you would need 2 set-up sessions. One for the villains and then one for the heroes.

For the villains you should limit their time (say to 10 days) and give them a limited pot of funds. Make sure you have the cost and time of most traps and tricks prepared. So they could dig a pit trap at the cost of 2 days and 50gp. You should also cost some monsters (of an appropriate CR. So they can buy a ooze or zombie.

You will have to be flexible about costs though as the villains will always ask for things you didn't expect.

Then I would run a session with the heroes and let them roleplay information gathering about the base.

Maybe the dwarf who built the cover over the pit can be bribed into talking or a merchant can inform the party that he bought a medusa there a week ago. Perhaps this information leaking is a "Cost" that the villains have to pay.

When the lair Ans the scouting is complete you have to run the scenario with 2dms working together otherwise it will be chaos or boring.

Good idea though I might try it.

[HopefulDMing]

I think you would need 2 set-up sessions. One for the villains and then one for the heroes.

For the villains you should limit their time (say to 10 days) and give them a limited pot of funds. Make sure you have the cost and time of most traps and tricks prepared. So they could dig a pit trap at the cost of 2 days and 50gp. You should also cost some monsters (of an appropriate CR. So they can buy a ooze or zombie.

You will have to be flexible about costs though as the villains will always ask for things you didn't expect.

Then I would run a session with the heroes and let them roleplay information gathering about the base.

Maybe the dwarf who built the cover over the pit can be bribed into talking or a merchant can inform the party that he bought a medusa there a week ago. Perhaps this information leaking is a "Cost" that the villains have to pay.

When the lair Ans the scouting is complete you have to run the scenario with 2dms working together otherwise it will be chaos or boring.

Good idea though I might try it.

Perhaps some monsters and forces could be hired with less tangible payment, perhaps the orc force will only join your dungeon if you build a shrine to Orcus, or the kobolds want a sanctuary to raise a dragon or something.

I would start them out with 1000 gp at least, changing it depending on the skill/number of the heroes, pre-design a grid based dungeon to sketch out added rooms and traps.

PS: If you do try it, tell me how it goes.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Your problem here is that it isn't really a play-style for large groups, it's splitting a large group in half and running two separate (but related) games. Which is probably the best option for a large group, if it's possible.

[Arcangel4774]

A slight change that may work is have one dm, and a few players be the DM's minions. They will play some npcs (now player characters lol) alongside controlling some enemies in a fight. It's also a good way to solve the big table issue as it slowly trains the dm minions into being dms themselves.

[HopefulDMing]

A slight change that may work is have one dm, and a few players be the DM's minions. They will play some npcs (now player characters lol) alongside controlling some enemies in a fight. It's also a good way to solve the big table issue as it slowly trains the dm minions into being dms themselves.

Oooh. That is very sneaky but effective. Maybe allow one of them to be DM for one session.