Hulking Hurler w/o War Hulk or cheese?

[danielxcutter]

So... I've heard about the Hulking Hurler + War Hulk combination that easily allows you to have a 1000d6 base damage projectile if you can find anything heavy enough to have that. Before you break out the cheese.

Yeah, that is way too broken to allow in almost any campaign.

But... that's because War Hulk boosts Strength a lot, right? I think it's something like +20 at the end...

So... if you don't add it to a HH build, and you don't boost the HH's Str score to TO degrees with templates and stuff, how is it?

Please consider moderate optimization for the purposes of this thread. Levels of Barbarian? Fine. Levels in Cancer Mage? Um, nope.

[OldTrees1]

Higher or lower optimization than this?


Hulking Hurler PO uses the Improved Weapon damage as a function of weight from Complete Warrior chapter 4 page 159 as directed by the class feature Really Throw Anything. Those rules state the improvised weapon deals 5d6+1d6 per 200lbs over 201-400lbs.

Hulking Hurlers can throw their light load at 1st level and their medium load if they select the trick.

Carrying Capacity is a function of both effective size and strength.

ECL 12
Goliath Barbarian(Spirit Lion Totem, Goliath Barbarian 1, Wolf Totem) 2 / Psionic Warrior 7 / Hulking Hurler 2
16 initial Strength +4 racial +6 enhancement = 26 & Carrying Capacity as if Large. (612lbs light, 1,226lbs medium)
Buff rounds: Mountain Rage + Expansion(7pp) = Gargantuan Size and +10 Strength (9,792lbs light, 19,616lbs medium)

So for ammunition weighing 601, 1201, 9601, and 19601 lbs you get 7d6, 10d6, 52d6, 102d6 damage.

Of course obtaining and transporting such loads become next to impossible outside of the buffed period.

[Hackulator]

Higher or lower optimization than this?


Hulking Hurler PO uses the Improved Weapon damage as a function of weight from Complete Warrior chapter 4 page 159 as directed by the class feature Really Throw Anything. Those rules state the improvised weapon deals 5d6+1d6 per 200lbs over 201-400lbs.

Hulking Hurlers can throw their light load at 1st level and their medium load if they select the trick.

Carrying Capacity is a function of both effective size and strength.

ECL 12
Goliath Barbarian(Spirit Lion Totem, Goliath Barbarian 1, Wolf Totem) 2 / Psionic Warrior 7 / Hulking Hurler 2
16 initial Strength +4 racial +6 enhancement = 26 & Carrying Capacity as if Large. (612lbs light, 1,226lbs medium)
Buff rounds: Mountain Rage + Expansion(7pp) = Gargantuan Size and +10 Strength (9,792lbs light, 19,616lbs medium)

So for ammunition weighing 601, 1201, 9601, and 19601 lbs you get 7d6, 10d6, 52d6, 102d6 damage.

Of course obtaining and transporting such loads become next to impossible outside of the buffed period.

How do you actually have things to throw though?

[danielxcutter]

Higher or lower optimization than this?


Hulking Hurler PO uses the Improved Weapon damage as a function of weight from Complete Warrior chapter 4 page 159 as directed by the class feature Really Throw Anything. Those rules state the improvised weapon deals 5d6+1d6 per 200lbs over 201-400lbs.

Hulking Hurlers can throw their light load at 1st level and their medium load if they select the trick.

Carrying Capacity is a function of both effective size and strength.

ECL 12
Goliath Barbarian(Spirit Lion Totem, Goliath Barbarian 1, Wolf Totem) 2 / Psionic Warrior 7 / Hulking Hurler 2
16 initial Strength +4 racial +6 enhancement = 26 & Carrying Capacity as if Large. (612lbs light, 1,226lbs medium)
Buff rounds: Mountain Rage + Expansion(7pp) = Gargantuan Size and +10 Strength (9,792lbs light, 19,616lbs medium)

So for ammunition weighing 601, 1201, 9601, and 19601 lbs you get 7d6, 10d6, 52d6, 102d6 damage.

I, uh... wow.


It's not quite as high as it is with War Hulk... but ouch.

Pretty sure even most meldshapers don't have enough hit points for the last two.

I was only thinking of Barbarian Rage for the Strength bonus, but I'd been forgetting Expansion.



Hmm... personally, I don't like Psywar on this, 'cause it doesn't feel right for some reason. I guess it's not that much optimization, though.

Mountain Rage is fine, though. I don't think it stacks with Powerful Build IIRC, but I could be wrong.

Edit:


How do you actually have things to throw though?

You usually don't, admittingly. It's not too hard to deal lots of damage, though, just not as much as the hypothetical maximum.

[Hackulator]

Pretty sure that combo doesn't work because none of the three things you are using to increase size stack.

Mountain Rage SETS your size to large, therefore you can't use it after expansion to get bigger, and you can't manifest while raging. Mountain Rage also does not stack with Powerful Build as noted above.

[danielxcutter]

Pretty sure that combo doesn't work because none of the three things you are using to increase size stack.

Mountain Rage SETS your size to large, therefore you can't use it after expansion to get bigger, and you can't manifest while raging. Mountain Rage also does not stack with Powerful Build as noted above.

Actually, I think you can manifest powers while raging if you have a Torc of Lucid Raging IIRC. Colossal is still pretty big, though.

[OldTrees1]

I, uh... wow.


It's not quite as high as it is with War Hulk... but ouch.

Pretty sure even most meldshapers don't have enough hit points for the last two.

I was only thinking of Barbarian Rage for the Strength bonus, but I'd been forgetting Expansion.



Hmm... personally, I don't like Psywar on this, 'cause it doesn't feel right for some reason. I guess it's not that much optimization, though.

Mountain Rage is fine, though. I don't think it stacks with Powerful Build IIRC, but I could be wrong.

Edit:



You usually don't, admittingly. It's not too hard to deal lots of damage, though, just not as much as the hypothetical maximum.


Pretty sure that combo doesn't work because none of the three things you are using to increase size stack.

Mountain Rage SETS your size to large, therefore you can't use it after expansion to get bigger, and you can't manifest while raging. Mountain Rage also does not stack with Powerful Build as noted above.

Mountain Rage sets your Size to Large (and negates Powerful Build) and then you expand 2 sizes to Gargantuan (not quite Colossal). I choose Mountain Rage for the +6 Str vs +4 Str and because it is a personal favorite of mine.

As for Psionic Powers while raging, only becoming Psionically Focused(Concentration skill) is prohibited. However if one were to houserule that one cannot manifest during a rage, then you remove the barbarian levels (losing a size category only cuts the damage by x2).

+20 Str is merely x16 load which is less than but about x16 damage.


Hackulator asked "How does one have things to throw?". I agree, not only does finding ammunition start becoming impossible, but transporting the ammunition also becomes impossible. This is why I allow War Hulks before I consider allowing Hulking Hurlers.

[danielxcutter]

I thought Colossal was the smaller one...?

[OldTrees1]

I thought Colossal was the smaller one...?

Nope. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon

[danielxcutter]

Nope. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon

Huh. I've been mistaken for quite a while then.

[Hackulator]

Mountain Rage sets your Size to Large (and negates Powerful Build) and then you expand 2 sizes to Gargantuan (not quite Colossal). I choose Mountain Rage for the +6 Str vs +4 Str and because it is a personal favorite of mine.

As for Psionic Powers while raging, only becoming Psionically Focused(Concentration skill) is prohibited. However if one were to houserule that one cannot manifest during a rage, then you remove the barbarian levels (losing a size category only cuts the damage by x2).

+20 Str is merely x16 load which is less than but about x16 damage.


Hackulator asked "How does one have things to throw?". I agree, not only does finding ammunition start becoming impossible, but transporting the ammunition also becomes impossible. This is why I allow War Hulks before I consider allowing Hulking Hurlers.

I feel pretty confident you are not supposed to be able to manifest while raging, it's just not in the rage ability because the PHB predates the psionic book.

[OldTrees1]

I feel pretty confident you are not supposed to be able to manifest while raging, it's just not in the rage ability because the PHB predates the psionic book.

I searched through both 3.5 psionic books and only found a the restriction prohibiting attempting to gain a psionic focus(being a concentration skill and all).

I consider "Manifesting while Raging" as unintended but less cheesy than the baseline Hulking Hurler improved weapon damage rules.

[danielxcutter]

I searched through both 3.5 psionic books and only found a the restriction prohibiting attempting to gain a psionic focus(being a concentration skill and all).

I consider "Manifesting while Raging" as unintended but less cheesy than the baseline Hulking Hurler improved weapon damage rules.

I'd still prefer not to do that, though.

Anyways, how much would be good enough for practical use without destroying half a country as a side effect?

[Hackulator]

I searched through both 3.5 psionic books and only found a the restriction prohibiting attempting to gain a psionic focus(being a concentration skill and all).

I consider "Manifesting while Raging" as unintended but less cheesy than the baseline Hulking Hurler improved weapon damage rules.

I feel that manifesting while raging is just far more stupid than the fact that if a giant who specializes in throwing heavy rocks on you throws a heavy rock on you, you might just die instantly.

Honestly, I have zero problem with the Hulking Hurler class. I think it's mainly supposed to be for DM NPCs anyway, Goliath is like, the only semi-normal PC race that even qualifies.

[danielxcutter]

I feel that manifesting while raging is just far more stupid than the fact that if a giant who specializes in throwing heavy rocks on you throws a heavy rock on you, you might just die instantly.

Honestly, I have zero problem with the Hulking Hurler class. I think it's mainly supposed to be for DM NPCs anyway, Goliath is like, the only semi-normal PC race that even qualifies.

What book was it from again? Savage Species perhaps, or maybe Complete Warrior?

But yeah it's fairly obvious that it's not intended for PC use.

[OldTrees1]

I'd still prefer not to do that, though.

Anyways, how much would be good enough for practical use without destroying half a country as a side effect?

Practical use depends on the table. Rogue only gets +1d6 per 2 levels per attack. So throwing 5d6 per attack at 10th level seems more than sufficient. That means ammunition weighing merely 201 lbs.


I feel that manifesting while raging is just far more stupid than the fact that if a giant who specializes in throwing heavy rocks on you throws a heavy rock on you, you might just die instantly.

Honestly, I have zero problem with the Hulking Hurler class. I think it's mainly supposed to be for DM NPCs anyway, Goliath is like, the only semi-normal PC race that even qualifies.

Fair enough:
Goliath Psychic Warrior 7 / Hulking Hurler 2
Normally 24 Str and "Large" sized (932 lbs medium load for 8d6)
Expands to 28 Str and Huge sized (3200 lbs medium load for 19d6)


What book was it from again? Savage Species perhaps, or maybe Complete Warrior?

But yeah it's fairly obvious that it's not intended for PC use.

Hulking Hurler is from Complete Warrior
Goliath is from Races of Stone(alongside Dwarf and Gnome)

[Hackulator]

Practical use depends on the table. Rogue only gets +1d6 per 2 levels per attack. So throwing 5d6 per attack at 9th level seems more than sufficient. That means ammunition weighing merely 201 lbs.



Fair enough:
(Medium sized race) Psychic Warrior 7 / Hulking Hurler 2
Normally 24 Str and Medium sized (466 lbs medium load for 6d6)
Expands to 28 Str and Huge sized (3200 lbs medium load for 19d6)

19d6 Single target is A LOT at 9....but it's not as game breaking as things you can do with spells. Honestly, martial classes SHOULD do more damage than casters.

[danielxcutter]

Practical use depends on the table. Rogue only gets +1d6 per 2 levels per attack. So throwing 5d6 per attack at 10th level seems more than sufficient. That means ammunition weighing merely 201 lbs.

Well yeeeaaaaah that's actually a good point now that I think of it.


Fair enough:
Goliath Psychic Warrior 7 / Hulking Hurler 2
Normally 24 Str and "Large" sized (932 lbs medium load for 8d6)
Expands to 28 Str and Huge sized (3200 lbs medium load for 19d6)

IIRC you can't use the Hulking Hurler abilities when Medium sized, as you don't meet the qualifications.

Edit:


19d6 Single target is A LOT at 9....but it's not as game breaking as things you can do with spells. Honestly, martial classes SHOULD do more damage than casters.

It's either this or uberchargers, I guess.

[Dagroth]

What book was it from again? Savage Species perhaps, or maybe Complete Warrior?

But yeah it's fairly obvious that it's not intended for PC use.

Goliath is in Races of Stone... +1 ECL, by the way.

Half-Ogre is in Races of Destiny and qualifies by being Large all the time. +2 ECL by the way.

[danielxcutter]

Hulking Hurler is from Complete Warrior
Goliath is from Races of Stone(alongside Dwarf and Gnome)


Goliath is in Races of Stone... +1 ECL, by the way.

Half-Ogre is in Races of Destiny and qualifies by being Large all the time. +2 ECL by the way.

Yeah, I already know about Goliath. Thanks for the other info though. Didn't know about the Half-Ogre; sounds much better than the core version.

[OldTrees1]

19d6 Single target is A LOT at 9....but it's not as game breaking as things you can do with spells. Honestly, martial classes SHOULD do more damage than casters.

19d6 per attack is more than 19d6 but I agree with the thrust of your point.


It's either this or uberchargers, I guess.

I prefer my Martial characters to be hitting more than 4 targets per round and doing more than mere damage. There are a variety of ways to do this (War Hulk's area attacks are a good start if one gets tired of Ubercharger/Hulking Hurler).

[AvatarVecna]

A Giant Goes Bowling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19852765&postcount=2) would need to have its Fist Of Stone item changed to a more traditional Str boosting item (since FoS apparently doesn't buff Str for the purposes of carrying capacity), you'll start with LA +2 that you can gradually buy off, and you'll start out able to wield a pointy 4d6 improvised weapon (assuming your DM allows Powerful Build to continue working when your size increases). You'll have maneuvers you'll get throughout, and pick up Bloodstorm Blade stuff by your 9th class level (which will either be ECL 11 or 9, depending on if you're using buy-off or not). A base weapon of 4d6 for your career is pretty sweet to start with, and your Str score will be pretty high even at ECL 3 (+16 from Race, so probably 30-34), and it's "light" enough for you that you can make iteratives with it. If you wanna make it larger than 4d6, you'll need to either get bigger, or you'll need to slap (Greater) Mighty Wallop on that sucker (probably via a friendly mage).

Thankfully for everybody, the weight limit within which you can make iteratives with a heavy improvised weapon is unchanged by Hulking Hurler, and for that matter is not affected by your Str score at all (it only cares about size); HH only changes the maximum weight on the improvised weapons you can wield to (light load) or (medium load), but both of those will be beyond the point where you can still make attacks with the improvised weapon as an iterative/standard, so anything beyond the 4d6 previously mentioned will require a full round action. This gives you interesting choices once you've got a third iterative and have your Str magic-boosted to 38, since with that friendly mage helping with a CL 12 GMW, you're looking at three attacks dealing 12d6+22 each (three times 64, total average 192 DPR) vs a different much bigger boulder dealing 45d6+22 (179.5 average DPR). One big shot is more advantageous when facing DR, while multiple shots is useful against those that can NOPE one attack a round. Of course, the 45d6 is arbitrary; your "big shot" boulder can be as high as 445d6, but I recommend doing 45d6 for a real game because you can show the DM it's definitively worse than multiple shots except when against high DR foes, and this makes the DM less likely to try and drain your strength down too low to throw your objects.

EDIT: As is probably well-known, you could also throw Half-Ogre template onto this build for free, due to the presence of Half-Minotaur, but I feel that's a bit cheesier than I'd like for a Hulking Hurler that might actually get played at the table.

[Florian]

Just a thought: Comparing the Object Damage with the rocks giants throw, there´ sosmething massively off.

[danielxcutter]

I prefer my Martial characters to be hitting more than 4 targets per round and doing more than mere damage. There are a variety of ways to do this (War Hulk's area attacks are a good start if one gets tired of Ubercharger/Hulking Hurler).

Oh yeah, I forgot that War Hulk isn't just tons of Strength.

I prefer gish builds though. I care less about the process and more of the face-bashingly satisfying results.

[Dagroth]

Just a thought: Comparing the Object Damage with the rocks giants throw, there´ something massively off.

But you can (and the illustration shows) add Hulking Hurler levels to Giants.

[Hackulator]

19d6 per attack is more than 19d6 but I agree with the thrust of your point (even if casters don't do anywhere near that much damage at that level).


I am skeptical about your practical ability to full attack in almost any situation. Unless you are carrying them on your person, you cannot quick draw the rocks.

A mage at that level can cast hold monster and have his summon coup de grace you.

[AvatarVecna]

Just a thought: Comparing the Object Damage with the rocks giants throw, there´ sosmething massively off.

There's a number of things off about the Rock Throwing ability of most giants. For starters, the amount you can lift and throw as a standard and as a full attack should be different. Here's a quick chart showing the size of the various Core giants, what their attacks look like throwing rocks, and what their attacks would look like if they abided by the CW rules.



Giant
Size
Stat Attack
Stat Full
Stat Range
CW Attack
CW Full
CW Range


Cloud Giant
Huge
2d8+12
2d8+12
140/700
2d6+18
4d6+18
10/50


Fire Giant
Large
2d6+10
2d6+10
120/600
1d8+15
3d6+15
10/50


Frost Giant
Large
2d6+9
2d6+9
120/600
1d8+13
3d6+13
10/50


Hill Giant
Large
2d6+7
2d6+7
120/600
1d8+10
3d6+10
10/50


Stone Giant
Large
2d8+12
2d8+12
180/900
1d8+12
3d6+12
10/50


Storm Giant
Huge
-
-
-
2d6+14
4d6+21
10/50

[OldTrees1]

I am skeptical about your practical ability to full attack in almost any situation. Unless you are carrying them on your person, you cannot quick draw the rocks.

A mage at that level can cast hold monster and have his summon coup de grace you.

I agree on both accounts. They can push/drag 7.5x their medium load so that 7 shots. If they are moving unbuffed and fighting buffed then my example can barely drag around 1 shot.

Although since this is the internet I must point out that the coup de grace of the summon of a 10th level mage is going to be less damage than from 2 19d6+misc boulders. Martials SHOULD do more damage, and they do do more damage. That just isn't enough.

[Hackulator]

I agree on both accounts. They can push/drag 7.5x their medium load so that 7 shots. If they are moving unbuffed and fighting buffed then my example can barely drag around 1 shot.

Although since this is the internet I must point out that the coup de grace of the summon of a 10th level mage is going to be less damage than from 2 19d6+misc boulders.

It is going to be less damage but they are going to just straight die to the fort save.

[OldTrees1]

It is going to be less damage but they are going to just straight die to the fort save.

Hence why "I agree on both accounts" however you said "Martials SHOULD do more damage", and they do do more damage. That just isn't enough.

[Goaty14]

The War Hulk is from the miniatures handbook


[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19852765&postcount=2"]
EDIT: As is probably well-known, you could also throw Half-Ogre template onto this build for free, due to the presence of Half-Minotaur, but I feel that's a bit cheesier than I'd like for a Hulking Hurler that might actually get played at the table.

Why would you use the half ogre template when you could just be a centaur; Centaurs get a x3 to carry capacity because they are quadrupeds.

[Buufreak]

Pretty sure even most meldshapers don't have enough hit points for the last two.


Maybe I missed something somewhere, but since when was a meldshaper the epitome of HP based survivability?

[JNAProductions]

Maybe I missed something somewhere, but since when was a meldshaper the epitome of HP based survivability?

They're Con based?

[Zanos]

How do you actually have things to throw though?
Metals are pretty dense:
http://www.coolmagnetman.com/magconda.htm

Get some throwing spheres cast and stick them in a portable hole. It might take a round to get one out each time but you're also definitely killing whatever you hit. Iron is only 1sp per pound and is dense enough. A portable hole holds 282.74 cubic feet. An enveloping pit would hold 5000 cubic feet, and is actually cheaper if you meet the prereqs to activate it. Iron has a density of 490 lbs per cubic foot, so the portable hole holds 138,542.6 lbs of iron, and the pit holds 2,450,000 lbs of iron. Not that you probably actually want to buy that much. But 50,000 lbs of iron and an enveloping pit will set you back less than 10k.

[Buufreak]

They're Con based?

So are DFA, but we don't see them mentioned. Like, lets talk real brass tax. Totemist has a d8 HD. Lets throw all the numbers out there, and say we can do max on all die, and 30 con? Even throw on something less than optimal but "HP lawl" improved toughness. That's 380. Since we are throwing a d6 around, we can consistently hit a 1HKO with 108d6. Conveniently, Mr(s) Trees did some math and found a relatively easy way to hit (nearly) that exact number. So with his 102d6, we are still instakilling about 45% of the time.

So unless there is some cheese I'm not accounting for (and lets face it, there probably is), I'm not seeing much in the ways of a shaper that can count as a bucket of HP.

Lets compare to a barb! Same starting stats, but mighty rage and better HD. We end up with 300 just with Con and IT, and caps at 540 with rolls. So again, I must ask: why are we calling a meldshaper the epitome of HP based survivability?

Now, as a note, I get that we could do dragonborn mongrelfolk or something similar, but that still isn't much different than above (18 roll, +6 race, +6 item). Also, we are talking PO, and I don't know what you consider practical, but a dozen hoops to jump through doesn't sound it to me.

[Grod_The_Giant]

They're Con based?
Vitality Belt, I'm guessing? It gives you +1 HP/Level per essentia invested. Given that you can throw up to 7 essentia in it (4 base, +2 class feature, +1 feat), that's a pretty sizable chunk... though given that you're only starting with a d6, you're still probably behind a raging Barbarian.

[Hackulator]

Metals are pretty dense:
http://www.coolmagnetman.com/magconda.htm

Get some throwing spheres cast and stick them in a portable hole. It might take a round to get one out each time but you're also definitely killing whatever you hit. Iron is only 1sp per pound and is dense enough. A portable hole holds 282.74 cubic feet. An enveloping pit would hold 5000 cubic feet, and is actually cheaper if you meet the prereqs to activate it. Iron has a density of 490 lbs per cubic foot, so the portable hole holds 138,542.6 lbs of iron, and the pit holds 2,450,000 lbs of iron. Not that you probably actually want to buy that much. But 50,000 lbs of iron and an enveloping pit will set you back less than 10k.

Yeah, I think in most gaming worlds the likelihood of there being a place that will cast meter wide iron spheres is low. Not to mention a supply of that much iron. One of those spheres is enough iron to make like 4000 longswords. I seriously doubt many places keep that much around.

[Buufreak]

Vitality Belt, I'm guessing? It gives you +1 HP/Level per essentia invested. Given that you can throw up to 7 essentia in it (4 base, +2 class feature, +1 feat), that's a pretty sizable chunk... though given that you're only starting with a d6, you're still probably behind a raging Barbarian.

Okay, now that is significant. Lets call it all 7 essentia, plus the 30 Con, netting 17/level, 18 with IT. 360. +120 from perfect HD, and we have 480. Barb still wins.

Edit: It was pointed out that this might be a bit of a derail. That isn't my intent, merely trying to pinpoint exactly how big a rock we need to chuck to statistically end hardier opponents. I established the 108d6 rock works for my theoretical totemist, but lets look at the higher end barb. Looking like 155d6 is his magic number, weighing in at a wopping (if I am doing rock math correctly) 30,000 lbs. The good news is our number crunched gargantuan goliath could just throw 2 rocks with a full attack and call it a day.

As for the density of metal argument: Anything stopping us from making a masterwork ball bearing and putting sizing on it?

[AvatarVecna]

The War Hulk is from the miniatures handbook



Why would you use the half ogre template when you could just be a centaur; Centaurs get a x3 to carry capacity because they are quadrupeds.

For LA +2, my options are "Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre Goliath", and "Half-Ogre Centaur". The former has +20 Str and x2 CC for being Large, while the latter has +12 Str and x3 CC for being a Large quadruped. This means that, with both having a base 18 Str, they would have heavy loads of 9600 lbs and 4800 lbs (with the Goliath having double the CC of the centaur with the same resources).

EDIT: Of course, this is ignoring that you're also spending 4 HD on Monstrous Humanoid RHD if you go Centaur, but even taking those away we just get straight to the above comparison of "Centaur is worse".

EDIT 2: Here's a general rule of thumb, given how CC scales and how Quadrupeds compare to others of the same size: since a Quad is 1.5x that of their size (so Large is x3 and Large Quad is x3, and so on for the other big sizes), you can look at the CC table and see that multiplying your heavy load by 1.5 is about the equivalent of +3 Str, so a Large non-quad has to have at least +4 more than the Quad to have more CC than the Quad...and I've got +8 more than the Quad, so I'm pretty in the clear, as it were.

[Goaty14]

As for the density of metal argument: Anything stopping us from making a masterwork ball bearing and putting sizing on it?

Possibly the argument that you cannot enchant a improvised weapon. If the ball bearing is adamantine, then it is always masterwork, and can always be enchanted. Thing is, what is the density of adamantine, and is it heavy enough to get good results?

[AvatarVecna]

Possibly the argument that you cannot enchant a improvised weapon. If the ball bearing is adamantine, then it is always masterwork, and can always be enchanted. Thing is, what is the density of adamantine, and is it heavy enough to get good results?

Armor and weapons made out of adamantibe instead of steel don't experience a change in weight, so best guess is that has a density comparable to steel.

[Zanos]

Yeah, I think in most gaming worlds the likelihood of there being a place that will cast meter wide iron spheres is low. Not to mention a supply of that much iron. One of those spheres is enough iron to make like 4000 longswords. I seriously doubt many places keep that much around.
You don't need them cast, just kind of smashed together.

And you don't need to buy the capacity either. We've already established a small fraction of that is still hitting for way above expected damage at your level.