Domain Devotion Question

[Wolfem]

First time poster long time lurker on these boards.

I apologize up front if this has been answered elsewhere on these boards but I didn't have much luck finding the answer using the search function.

I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than I could clarify how Domain Devotion feats work from Complete Champion.

More specifically I am trying to determine if you can take one of these feats while still maintaining access to the Domain the feat represents?

My example is I want to play a Cleric that follows the deity Myrkul and planned to take the Evil and Death Domains.

Is is possible to take the Death Devotion feat at some point while still maintaining access to the Death Domain spells and it's ability?

Note: We play using the D&D 3.5e rule set but our DM allows us to use 3e sources/material if there was no update to 3.5e for it.

[mabriss lethe]

Your choice: you can take it as a normal feat and keep your normal cleric domain power, or give up your power in exchange for getting the appropriate devotion without burning a normal feat slot

[Wolfem]

Your choice: you can take it as a normal feat and keep your normal cleric domain power, or give up your power in exchange for getting the appropriate devotion without burning a normal feat slot

So if I understand that correctly I can either:

1.) Use one of my normal feat slots from leveling to take the Devotion Feat while maintaining access to the Domain.
OR
2.) Sacrifice access to the Domain to take the Devotion feat at any level as a Bonus Feat.

Is this correct?

If so, does that mean I could start off my Cleric of Myrkul taking the Evil and Fate Domains as well as the Death Devotion Feat, giving up my access to the Death Domain?

[Kaleph]

So if I understand that correctly I can either:

1.) Use one of my normal feat slots from leveling to take the Devotion Feat while maintaining access to the Domain.
OR
2.) Sacrifice access to the Domain to take the Devotion feat at any level as a Bonus Feat.

Is this correct?

If so, does that mean I could start off my Cleric of Myrkul taking the Evil and Fate Domains as well as the Death Devotion Feat, giving up my access to the Death Domain?

I think, it means that, whenever you would normally get an access to a Domain (e.g. 1st Level cleric), you may decide to give it up and take a feat instead. So your example doesn't work, since you still have Access to 2 Domains.

[DarkSoul]

For your cleric specifically:



You can choose up to two devotion feats with normal feat slots. These have to be chosen from feats corresponding to Myrkul's domains, but don't have to match the domains you chose for your character.
At any time, you can give up access to a domain you've chosen and gain its Devotion feat. This allows you to have a maximum of three devotion feats. If you give up access to a domain, you give up all access. The domain spells aren't domain spells for you any more, and you don't have the domain granted power.
Regarding your question, your cleric with the Evil and Fate domains could take the Death Devotion feat with a normal feat slot; you can't take Death Devotion as a bonus feat, because you don't have access to to the Death domain.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, you have to give up one of your two domains if you choose to do it that way. You can't give up one of the domains you didn't choose, because you don't have it if you didn't choose it. It just doesn't make sense.

If you're playing a Cleric and want to keep your domains and domain powers, just take devotion feats like a normal feat. Exchanging your domain for a devotion feat is more useful for characters who are only dipping into Cleric, or Clerics with a domain that's spells and power just aren't that good compared to the feat.

[Murmaider]

This is not 100% related to what the OP was asking, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Thematically it seems nonsensical. A cleric is devoted to a concept so much, that he loses access to that domain completely? Wouldn't it make more sense to lose another domain, specifically, forbidding to give up the domain with the same name as the one the cleric wishes to take?

For example: A cleric of Kord has the Good and Strength domains. So, later he decides he's really into Strength(one could say he has a devotion for Strength), so much so, that he gives up his other domain, to be more about strength and get a feat out of it.

[KillianHawkeye]

This is not 100% related to what the OP was asking, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Thematically it seems nonsensical. A cleric is devoted to a concept so much, that he loses access to that domain completely? Wouldn't it make more sense to lose another domain, specifically, forbidding to give up the domain with the same name as the one the cleric wishes to take?

For example: A cleric of Kord has the Good and Strength domains. So, later he decides he's really into Strength(one could say he has a devotion for Strength), so much so, that he gives up his other domain, to be more about strength and get a feat out of it.

Yeah, except that a Cleric doesn't have to give up anything. They can take the feat as normal. Trading the domain spells/power for the devotion Feat represents a different way of pledging oneself to a particular domain, not a stronger one.

[Buufreak]

Alright, side question, because devotion feats are a bit foreign to me: could a cleric of Wee Jas take the death domain, then also take death devotion as a level feat, and have access to both?

[DarkSoul]

Alright, side question, because devotion feats are a bit foreign to me: could a cleric of Wee Jas take the death domain, then also take death devotion as a level feat, and have access to both?Yes. With 6+ more characters.

[Buufreak]

Yes. With 6+ more characters.

... What? Are you stating I would have to play the entire party?

[Nifft]

... What? Are you stating I would have to play the entire party?

"Yes" is too short to be a valid post on this forum.

[Buufreak]

"Yes" is too short to be a valid post on this forum.

... Oh. OH! Okay. I read it as PC characters, not digital text characters. Carry on, folks

[Jowgen]

To slightly high-jack this thread with a tangent:

Can one still qualify for PrC's with the prerequesite of access to a Domain (e.g. War for Ordained Champion), if they choose to trade the actual domain for it's devotion feat?

I think the RAW says no, but there might be a rule somewhere I missed.

Now provided it is a No for that one, what if one decided to do the trade AFTER entering the PrC? I know this one will most likely devolve into a general PrC un-qualifying debate, but I thought I'd ask for completeness.

[Crake]

To slightly high-jack this thread with a tangent:

Can one still qualify for PrC's with the prerequesite of access to a Domain (e.g. War for Ordained Champion), if they choose to trade the actual domain for it's devotion feat?

I think the RAW says no, but there might be a rule somewhere I missed.

Now provided it is a No for that one, what if one decided to do the trade AFTER entering the PrC? I know this one will most likely devolve into a general PrC un-qualifying debate, but I thought I'd ask for completeness.

As far as I'm aware, the answer to your first question is no.

As for your second question, I'm pretty sure that choice needs to be made upon gaining the domain, it cant just be traded in at any time, that seems silly.

[Jowgen]

As for your second question, I'm pretty sure that choice needs to be made upon gaining the domain, it cant just be traded in at any time, that seems silly.

I was taking DarkSoul at his word for that one, is he mistaken? :smallconfused:

[weckar]

I do believe DarkSoul is mistaken.

[DarkSoul]

Clerics and Domain Feats: If you are a cleric (or any other character class who gains access to a domain), you can choose any domain feat corresponding to the list of domains offered by your deity, even if you do not have access to those particular domains. A cleric of Pelor, for example, can choose to cast spells from the Good and Healing domains but select the Strength Devotion and Sun Devotion feats.

In addition, you can choose to give up access to a domain in exchange for the corresponding domain feat. Doing so allows you to select up to three domain feats, but you cannot prepare domain spells or use the granted power of the sacrificed domain. In essence, you trade in a domain for an extra feat slot that you can spend only on a specific domain feat. For example, the above cleric of Pelor could choose to give up the granted power and spells of the Good domain for the Good Devotion feat.Not sure where you're getting the idea that you can only lose a domain in exchange for a devotion feat at the exact moment you gain access to said domain, unless you're reading too much specificity into the first sentence. There's no particular timing listed for when you can trade out the domain in the section of the rules addressing the ability. I guess if you choose to rule it that way, go for it but I feel it's unnecessarily restrictive, and not explicitly RAW.


To slightly high-jack this thread with a tangent:

Can one still qualify for PrC's with the prerequesite of access to a Domain (e.g. War for Ordained Champion), if they choose to trade the actual domain for it's devotion feat?

I think the RAW says no, but there might be a rule somewhere I missed.

Now provided it is a No for that one, what if one decided to do the trade AFTER entering the PrC? I know this one will most likely devolve into a general PrC un-qualifying debate, but I thought I'd ask for completeness.First question: No, you no longer have access to the domain in any form.

Second question: Yes it would devolve into a PrC-disqualification debate, but you no longer meet the prerequisites for the prestige class. If your DM says you don't get PrC benefits if you don't maintain the qualifications, then trading a requisite domain away would be a bad idea.

[Crake]

Considering the general rule for selecting feats and class related decisions is upon levelup, when you gain the feature, you would need a specific rule to say otherwise. If the rules text said "In addition, you can choose, at any time, to give up access to a domain in exchange for the corresponding domain feat." then I would agree with you, but in the same way that a cleric cannot change her domains whenever she chooses (though there is a spell for that), the cleric cannot trade away a class feature for a bonus feat whenever he or she desires.

[Jowgen]

Based on how it's written, I'm actually with DarkSoul on this one.

The exact wording is "can choose to give up access", and you have to already have something in order to give it up. Clearly the choice of Domain needs to already have been made, and choosing class features is the last step in leveling up (i.e. time to choose feats is passed).

If it said "to forgo" or "to choose instead off", or specified that the choice had to be made immediately after gaining access to the domain that would be one thing; but as written I think that the sensible reading is in fact that clerics -as a class- have the option to give up their domains later in their progression.

At worst, if one were a stickler for consistency accross mechanics, one would be able to do the switch on level up. Especially if retraining rules are in play. Although in that case the specific wording of the Domain feat rules would likely over-rule the retraining rules in regards to time and gp required; especially considering that you're not actually choosing a different class feature out of equal options (as the retraining rules say), but using a different rule-set to give up an existing feature as it specifies. But I digress on this tangent.

[Wolfem]

Thanks to all those that replied to this thread.

The information provided cleared things up for me.

[ClericalTank]

Not to continue the thread when it is supposedly done with, but I'm gonna raise an extra point on the "when can you give up the domain" conversation, because I feel like there's some additional information that can be gleaned from it.

The Knowledge Devotion feat requires five ranks in any knowledge.
This is impossible at Level 1, as the max ranks one may have at at that level is four. This is, however, when you get your domains to start with.
While the text quoted above says that a feat may be gained by giving up the appropriate domain (it also says that you must pick according to those available to your deity, while the Cloistered Cleric Variant gives you Knowledge no matter whether your god has it or not; I wanna say that one's a "check with DM" scenario), it also says that they are then gained as feats.

Not even bonus feats, mind, but we'll say that's the case. Fighter gets bonus feats, but cannot pick something he can't get (Greatsword Specialization before Focus, for example). The Monk, however, specifically states:

Bonus Feat
At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
Emphasis mine. This indicates (to me, at least), that because this is not also specified in the quote before, one must meet the pre-req's to gain the feat in question. They could simply have not thought of this when they made the requirement to begin with, but as it stands, in the interpretation that says the domain must be replaced when it is gained, this means one cannot trade for Knowledge Devotion.

Now there are two different ways one can go from here: one can get rid of the pre-req section (or add the "pre-req's not necessary" clause) and maintain that domains must be traded for feats at Cleric 1; or simply let the trade happen at any time. In the case of the latter, I suggest trading domains to be a Full-Round Action.

Feel free to laugh at me if I've made a fool of myself.
Edit: Or you can just take an extra level with a knowledge (I would pick Bard, but that's just my own preference) and take Cleric at level 2; that would also fix it.

[Darrin]

The Knowledge Devotion feat requires five ranks in any knowledge.


My suspicion is that this is a mistake that the editors didn't catch. None of the other devotion feats have skill rank requirements, and the requirement isn't on the table of feats. Yes, I am aware of "text trumps table". I suspect that some of the Devotions may have had skill ranks on an earlier draft, then the rules for swapping domains for devotions were added or updated, the prereqs were taken out, and for whatever reason they missed the prereq on Knowledge Devotion.

Outside of that, yes, there are several different ways to handwave this away.

Another somewhat related point: If you trade away your domain power for a Devotion feat, and decide later that you really want that domain power back, then you can pick it up with Planar Touchstone/Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment.

[weckar]

Edit: Or you can just take an extra level with a knowledge (I would pick Bard, but that's just my own preference) and take Cleric at level 2; that would also fix it.

I prefer this approach, actually.

[DarkSoul]

Now there are two different ways one can go from here: one can get rid of the pre-req section (or add the "pre-req's not necessary" clause) and maintain that domains must be traded for feats at Cleric 1; or simply let the trade happen at any time. In the case of the latter, I suggest trading domains to be a Full-Round Action.I'd actually go further and require the cleric not have any knowledge domain spells prepared unless they were available in some other way. After that, it would definitely be at least a full round action, maybe even something that takes minutes or longer.