How to make an angel cry?

[Braininthejar2]

I mean besides committing atrocities so horrible that heavens themselves weep?

Most high ranking angels seem to have eyes made of solid light - they don't really need tears.

So, what would one say if you asked him about it?

[Gildedragon]

Favorite ways of getting angel tears:
Onions
Tickle them
Staring contest against a cat

[Hackulator]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/o/overwhelming-grief/

[Inevitability]

Torrent of Tears from Complete Mage should do the job.

[Braininthejar2]

angel tears wouldn't be a minor artifact if you could induce them with a level 3 spell

[Nifft]

Favorite ways of getting angel tears:
Onions
Tickle them
Staring contest against a cat

Excellent options, especially when you consider the fact that angels are allergic to cats.

4. Invite her to your wedding, and have a perfectly beautiful ceremony.

5. Look into her eyes while making love, and tell her how much you truly love her.

6. Take her to a really sad movie.

[The Viscount]

If an angel binds Focalor and does not succeed on the check or chooses to display the sign, they will be weeping for 24 hours.

[Hackulator]

Excellent options, especially when you consider the fact that angels are allergic to cats.

4. Invite her to your wedding, and have a perfectly beautiful ceremony.

5. Look into her eyes while making love, and tell her how much you truly love her.

6. Take her to a really sad movie.

If women are crying while you make love to them you are probably doing it wrong.

[Forrestfire]

angel tears wouldn't be a minor artifact if you could induce them with a level 3 spell

Angel tears, the minor artifact, are not angel tears, liquid from the tear ducts of an angel. They're specifically an item created through a (now lost) magical process. Crying angels don't create angel tears.


Angel Tears: Hardened into tiny crystals, these tears, like angel blood, were created by no spellcaster. Instead, they are gathered from places where angels have felt sorrow or pain, using some long-lost dark process.

[Pex]

Commit an act of the most endearing, beautiful, and kind.

[gkathellar]

Onio-

*glances up*

Damn it.

[Braininthejar2]

Angel tears, the minor artifact, are not angel tears, liquid from the tear ducts of an angel. They're specifically an item created through a (now lost) magical process. Crying angels don't create angel tears.

It's being an angel's tear that makes it a relic - the process is for extracting it from the ground where it had been shed.

[Afgncaap5]

A lot of this would be up to DM fiat, of course, but...

A Perform check of 30 *might* draw the attention of extraplanar beings, potentially including angels. Make it a regular occurrence and they may show up for a show. While they watch, a Perform check between 30 and 90 could potentially shift their attitude from Indifferent (I assume) to somewhere between Helpful and Fanatic. At this point, I would appeal to the angel's personal tastes: an Opera performance tends to be rife with emotions about given topics, so if the Opera in question can relate to whatever deity or force the angel serves, then it's reasonable to assume that a really solid Performance check that speaks to those sensibilities (say, 70 or so) might have a decent chance of getting the angel to start tearing up a bit.

Again, this is highly up to DM fiat, but if you can get the scheme to this point it might be worth asking the DM for a percentile chance.

Then another Diplomacy check to ask the (theoretically Helpful) angel for their tears, and unless you run into a situation where their deity absolutely prohibits such things you'll probably not only have yourself some angel tears, but a few friends in high places. I'd recommend against trying to get the angel fanatic by just the numbers, though, since I imagine serving a higher power probably boosts their DC against that kind of thing, and besides you're already getting it this way.

Putting that aside...

Inevitability's suggestion of Torrent of Tears followed by a nice Sleight Of Hand check with a glass vial would probably get the same results if you can be sure the angel won't role a natural 20, and it'd have the benefit of leaving practically nothing to DM judgement calls. I wouldn't want most angels on my bad side, though; even the weaker ones could mess things up big picture. Better to have a friend in high places than an enemy, says I.

[Thurbane]

Although much higher level than Torrent of Tears, Maddening Whispers (SC) can also do this, but has a 50% chance of causing laughter instead of crying.

Arguably, Wave of Grief or Crushing Despair might also work, but don't mention crying or tears specficially.

[Matrota]

Trick them into holding a weeping stone to their face somehow. Or just throw it into their face.

[Pex]

Tell the Angel why you need him to cry. If you're Honest about it and the need is Just and Righteous, all you have to do is ask.

[Psyren]

It's being an angel's tear that makes it a relic - the process is for extracting it from the ground where it had been shed.

The "dark process" is what makes it an artifact however. It's right there in the description.

[zergling.exe]

It's being an angel's tear that makes it a relic - the process is for extracting it from the ground where it had been shed.

The angel's sorrow and pain is extracted from the ground, not physical tears. Those have nothing to do with Angel Tears, despite the name.

[Anxe]

Kick em in the shins or happy sacs. They're bound to tear up a little.

Or just have them fly really fast. The momentum should pull some tears out of their eyes.

[Krobar]

Cast Gate, summon an angel, order it to cry?

[Nifft]

Cast Gate, summon an angel, order it to cry?

Does that count as teasing?

Now I'm picturing the whole party standing around an unhappy Deva... "Cry, Debbie, cry! Cry, Debbie, cry!"

I bet that's an Evil act.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Don't spend two pence on some breadcrumbs to feed the birds?

[Florian]

Gate to Heaven, create a permanent illusion of "The Last Unicorn", collect rivers of Angel tears?

[Keltest]

Invite one to a showing of Marley and Me.

[gkathellar]

More seriously, angels are specifically servants of good deities. A cleric of a good god could probably Miracle one into existence - although they might have to answer some difficult questions after the fact.

[Krobar]

Does that count as teasing?

Now I'm picturing the whole party standing around an unhappy Deva... "Cry, Debbie, cry! Cry, Debbie, cry!"

I bet that's an Evil act.

When I'm done with the angel, I'll gate myself up a pit fiend and order it to bow, and grovel before me, while proclaiming its worthlessness.

[Thurbane]

Have the angel watch the end of the "Jurassic Bark" episode of Futurama. Or the "thumbs up" scene from Terminator 2. Or the last part of The Iron Giant.

http://emojipop.net/data/images/emoji_set_25.png

[SimonMoon6]

I know onions have already been mentioned, but this seems like a perfect job for the minionions of Set. (You know... that typo from that really early TSR product that was trying to mention minions of Set but instead referred to mini-onions instead?)

[atemu1234]

I'd probably torture one. I don't care what you are, having bits and pieces of yourself flayed off and then having the wounds treated with lye is going to have you at least a bit misty-eyed.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Make their god kill a kitten.

[Afgncaap5]

I'd probably torture one. I don't care what you are, having bits and pieces of yourself flayed off and then having the wounds treated with lye is going to have you at least a bit misty-eyed.

This assumes that angels have a similarly responsive physiology. For some DMs who treat them as extra-strong humanoids with wings, this is probably very easy. For other DMs, it might be harder.

[Ironsmith]

Simple answer: you don't. Angels are supernatural beings who don't need to cry for any reason, not even for the purposes of expressing emotion. Attempting to coerce tears from one will likely end in your untimely smiting, even if you're high-to-Epic level.

That's not to say they can't cry... the very existence of Angel Tears would tend to suggest otherwise. Rather, they'd only cry if they really wanted to, and given that they're probably aware of the effects their tears have, that's something they won't do at the drop of a hat. If they cry for you, they'll do so as a form of heartfelt blessing... so what you'd really need to do is something that touches them, in a way that doesn't demand or even necessarily ask for their tears, but is open to the possibility of being enhanced by one of them. A heroic sacrifice to save one's lover comes to mind, for example...

[Celestia]

Show the angel the complete filmography of Don Bluth.

[zergling.exe]

Simple answer: you don't. Angels are supernatural beings who don't need to cry for any reason, not even for the purposes of expressing emotion. Attempting to coerce tears from one will likely end in your untimely smiting, even if you're high-to-Epic level.

That's not to say they can't cry... the very existence of Angel Tears would tend to suggest otherwise. Rather, they'd only cry if they really wanted to, and given that they're probably aware of the effects their tears have, that's something they won't do at the drop of a hat. If they cry for you, they'll do so as a form of heartfelt blessing... so what you'd really need to do is something that touches them, in a way that doesn't demand or even necessarily ask for their tears, but is open to the possibility of being enhanced by one of them. A heroic sacrifice to save one's lover comes to mind, for example...

Nah, Angel Tears are crystallized negative emotions of sadness and pain extracted from a location where an angel felt such emotions intensely, the method of which is unknown. Nothing to do with physical tears that come from tear ducts.

[Afgncaap5]

Simple answer: you don't. Angels are supernatural beings who don't need to cry for any reason, not even for the purposes of expressing emotion. Attempting to coerce tears from one will likely end in your untimely smiting, even if you're high-to-Epic level.

That's not to say they can't cry... the very existence of Angel Tears would tend to suggest otherwise. Rather, they'd only cry if they really wanted to, and given that they're probably aware of the effects their tears have, that's something they won't do at the drop of a hat. If they cry for you, they'll do so as a form of heartfelt blessing... so what you'd really need to do is something that touches them, in a way that doesn't demand or even necessarily ask for their tears, but is open to the possibility of being enhanced by one of them. A heroic sacrifice to save one's lover comes to mind, for example...

This is why I think a Perform check is the way to go, honestly. A powerfully moving song, scene, or, heck, joke, can coerce those kinds of emotions with little in the way of personal sacrifice from the one who needs the tears, outside of the sacrifice that goes into becoming excellent at Perform checks, and the rules suggest (though admittedly don't require) that extraplanar beings may show up to observe, and there's so little risk of a quick smiting for the attempt.

Heck, build up the entire scenario over the course of a number of sessions, really commit to this thing long-term, you might even move the DM a little. And the best part is that there's no penalty for failure, no loss of spell slots, no materials wasted (unless you use one-shot Performance (check) enhancing magic items), and no enemies to make.

[AlanBruce]

All the above are solid ideas to make an Angel Cry.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/bayonetta/images/d/d4/Bayo_key_visual.png/revision/latest?cb=20090902142514

She will make them bleed too, so beware.

[Braininthejar2]

Simple answer: you don't. Angels are supernatural beings who don't need to cry for any reason, not even for the purposes of expressing emotion. Attempting to coerce tears from one will likely end in your untimely smiting, even if you're high-to-Epic level.

That's not to say they can't cry... the very existence of Angel Tears would tend to suggest otherwise. Rather, they'd only cry if they really wanted to, and given that they're probably aware of the effects their tears have, that's something they won't do at the drop of a hat. If they cry for you, they'll do so as a form of heartfelt blessing... so what you'd really need to do is something that touches them, in a way that doesn't demand or even necessarily ask for their tears, but is open to the possibility of being enhanced by one of them. A heroic sacrifice to save one's lover comes to mind, for example...


This is why I think a Perform check is the way to go, honestly. A powerfully moving song, scene, or, heck, joke, can coerce those kinds of emotions with little in the way of personal sacrifice from the one who needs the tears, outside of the sacrifice that goes into becoming excellent at Perform checks, and the rules suggest (though admittedly don't require) that extraplanar beings may show up to observe, and there's so little risk of a quick smiting for the attempt.

Heck, build up the entire scenario over the course of a number of sessions, really commit to this thing long-term, you might even move the DM a little. And the best part is that there's no penalty for failure, no loss of spell slots, no materials wasted (unless you use one-shot Performance (check) enhancing magic items), and no enemies to make.

This is the kind of answers in line with what I had in mind. I will explain my dillema in the next post.

[Braininthejar2]

Okay, so this will be a long post. I'm the GM in the campaign, and the one looking for the tears is my player. She has a difficult siege ahead of her, attacking a magical castle that will likely be warded against her usual tricks - so she decided to cheat by using poison on their water supply. Since she met a taanari poison maker during her previous adventures, she decided to visit him again - only he could brew something for her that would still be relevant at this level.

***

So, the player went to Carceri, and met the demon Sinmaker. The poison master was rather pleased with the challenge presented - he finally suggested purified aboleth mucus - normally it is quite thick, and works when ingested, but he can make it into something that will be diluted in water, and absorbed by people who drink it or wash in it, until a couple day's later they suddenly discover that their lungs got slightly transformed, and don't process air correctly anymore. She was happy with something that can kill and "isn't a poison". I think she missed just how nasty it was. Anyway, since she's a druid, and technically not evil, the demon send her on the fetch quests to the higher planes as payment.

She chose Arcadia as her destination, hoping to get everything done in one go. She is accompanied by two good teammates, - a winged elf priestess, who keeps telling her dealing with demons is a horrible idea, and selling them heavenly stuff is worse, and her chaotic good, walnut-brained barbarian bodyguard.

Now, the fetch quest stuff is mostly something she could do or get, no big deal, except for one thing. Angel's tears. Angels don't really have a physiological need to cry, though they can do it under intense emotions – it is a rare and valuable thing.

The player has no idea how to get it, (short of traumatizing an angel, which she considers out of the question)

So she has decided for a straightforward approach – find an angel in the nearest city, and ask one what it would take to make it cry. She knows this will raise some questions – she's decided for a "jedi truth" approach – she needs the tears to defeat an evil priestess, and save her allies from getting murdered (all technically true, as her allies are being hunted, and the villain operates from a hard to reach base – but she's going to omit the part where she wants to poison the hell out of the villains, and needs the angel's tears to pay a demon for it.)

Now, what I want from the adventure is the following:

1 I want to play with the myth/fairy tale theme – making an angel cry is something out of a myth, and she has at most two weeks to accomplish the feat. So, I need to come up with a suitably epic idea, and (hopefully subtly) guide the player towards it.

2 I want to make the plot happen despite the fact that her deception is doomed to fail – she has two companions that are very reluctant to go with it, and while mortals in Arcadia might be of the gullible kind, the angels are not stupid (plus, she's an outsider there, so in such an orderly place, she's automatically a bit suspicious.) trying to arrest a level 20 druid would likely cause a horrible mess, and that's not really what this adventure is about.

3 I want this adventure to act as a warning. The player has grown too conceited. She doesn't consider herself evil, but excuses a lot of evil by "creatures following their nature". She has a big party of mixed alignments, and has taken to solving problems by asking the bad guys for advice first, since they are more cunning, and then if she finds the idea acceptable, but not entirely moral, do it behind the back of her good companions – in effect binding with the party members she doesn't trust, while abusing the trust of those she could.
And she keeps using 'jedi truth' and being smug about not lying. If she continues like this, it will bite her in the ass soon, perhaps so hard that it will bring the campaign to a premature end – there is a boss planned ahead, who tried to mess with the party's minds, by appearing as a dead hero, and painting them as monsters – using illusions to create cruel lies... but if he actually has truths to work with...

It would be best if someone could warn her in a cryptic manner – the player enjoys riddles.

Oh, also if she does go with it and sells angel's tears to the demons, they will "follow their nature" – use the tears to voodoo the angel into obedience and get him killed fighting alongside them in the Blood War.

So, do you have any ideas that I could incorporate?

[Gildedragon]

Okay, so this will be a long post. I'm the GM in the campaign, and the one looking for the tears is my player. She has a difficult siege ahead of her, attacking a magical castle that will likely be warded against her usual tricks - so she decided to cheat by using poison on their water supply. Since she met a taanari poison maker during her previous adventures, she decided to visit him again - only he could brew something for her that would still be relevant at this level.

***

So, the player went to Carceri, and met the demon Sinmaker. The poison master was rather pleased with the challenge presented - he finally suggested purified aboleth mucus - normally it is quite thick, and works when ingested, but he can make it into something that will be diluted in water, and absorbed by people who drink it or wash in it, until a couple day's later they suddenly discover that their lungs got slightly transformed, and don't process air correctly anymore. She was happy with something that can kill and "isn't a poison". I think she missed just how nasty it was. Anyway, since she's a druid, and technically not evil, the demon send her on the fetch quests to the higher planes as payment.

She chose Arcadia as her destination, hoping to get everything done in one go. She is accompanied by two good teammates, - a winged elf priestess, who keeps telling her dealing with demons is a horrible idea, and selling them heavenly stuff is worse, and her chaotic good, walnut-brained barbarian bodyguard.

Now, the fetch quest stuff is mostly something she could do or get, no big deal, except for one thing. Angel's tears. Angels don't really have a physiological need to cry, though they can do it under intense emotions – it is a rare and valuable thing.

The player has no idea how to get it, (short of traumatizing an angel, which she considers out of the question)

So she has decided for a straightforward approach – find an angel in the nearest city, and ask one what it would take to make it cry. She knows this will raise some questions – she's decided for a "jedi truth" approach – she needs the tears to defeat an evil priestess, and save her allies from getting murdered (all technically true, as her allies are being hunted, and the villain operates from a hard to reach base – but she's going to omit the part where she wants to poison the hell out of the villains, and needs the angel's tears to pay a demon for it.)

Now, what I want from the adventure is the following:

1 I want to play with the myth/fairy tale theme – making an angel cry is something out of a myth, and she has at most two weeks to accomplish the feat. So, I need to come up with a suitably epic idea, and (hopefully subtly) guide the player towards it.

2 I want to make the plot happen despite the fact that her deception is doomed to fail – she has two companions that are very reluctant to go with it, and while mortals in Arcadia might be of the gullible kind, the angels are not stupid (plus, she's an outsider there, so in such an orderly place, she's automatically a bit suspicious.) trying to arrest a level 20 druid would likely cause a horrible mess, and that's not really what this adventure is about.

3 I want this adventure to act as a warning. The player has grown too conceited. She doesn't consider herself evil, but excuses a lot of evil by "creatures following their nature". She has a big party of mixed alignments, and has taken to solving problems by asking the bad guys for advice first, since they are more cunning, and then if she finds the idea acceptable, but not entirely moral, do it behind the back of her good companions – in effect binding with the party members she doesn't trust, while abusing the trust of those she could.
And she keeps using 'jedi truth' and being smug about not lying. If she continues like this, it will bite her in the ass soon, perhaps so hard that it will bring the campaign to a premature end – there is a boss planned ahead, who tried to mess with the party's minds, by appearing as a dead hero, and painting them as monsters – using illusions to create cruel lies... but if he actually has truths to work with...

It would be best if someone could warn her in a cryptic manner – the player enjoys riddles.

Oh, also if she does go with it and sells angel's tears to the demons, they will "follow their nature" – use the tears to voodoo the angel into obedience and get him killed fighting alongside them in the Blood War.

So, do you have any ideas that I could incorporate?

Mild discomfort on entering Arcadia; a mild effect of her downward saunter. Also whoever she asks about the tears ought warn her of what angel tears are: ie a vile spell component akin to defiled unicorn horn.
Also also remember the druid alignment restriction. No extreme alignments. If she is LN going Evil ought cut her from her powers.

Have whoever she asks (and is able to get the info from) to point them to Acheron's battlefields.

Note that a way to hint at how awful aboleth slime is: have their life preserving spell in Acheron fail: suffocation rules in play until they can get to an "oasis"

[Braininthejar2]

I need the 'good' tears here, not the 'liquid trauma' thing.

[Braininthejar2]

Okay, after asking various people, some ideas have finally coalesced.

Idea one: move the angel to tears with something beautiful.

Of course the angels, living where they do, can be quite jaded to beauty. It would take something truly extraordinary to do it. But since the player chose to go to Arcadia, which is strongly law-aligned, a good bard would be a true rarity there.

Problem is, the party doesn't have a bard.

So, the quest would be "find a truly great (epic?) bard and persuade him to play for the angels." The thing is, no such character has even been hinted at in the campaign so far, and even in the planes, level 20+ characters don't grow on trees.

So, I'd need a smooth way to introduce him into the story, and then make an adventure out of it. I don't think he'd make another request from the player in return - this side quest is on a two weeks timer, and there is only so far I should stretch it. The idea that comes to my mind is perhaps the bard is imprisoned by someone powerful, like, held in a cage as a living music box by a titan in Carceri or something. - but then again, I'll need some non-awkward way to introduce this knowledge to the party. I can't just have some random NPC say "Hey, that bard X guy could do it, but he's imprisoned there and there..."

Idea two: accomplish something of personal significance to the angel

Long ago the angel lost something very important to him. Perhaps a loved one? There is something connected to that story that the player could recover, that is thought lost and beyond the angel's reach. "Fools rush in where angels fear to thread."

So, in that case, what is it, and how is it out of reach? Perhaps the lost love was a gardener, but the world she lived in is long gone, along with its flowers - but there is one place where they still grow, lost in a time anomaly/thrown into the astral? In here I could use some brainstorming ideas to flesh it out.

And the problem from idea one is even more pronounced here - the player would not only need to find some very obscure knowledge - she's have to know to look for it in the first place. This is the kind of thing you learn from oracles, but she has already visited two over the last two levels.

[Afgncaap5]

I think you have some great starting ideas there, though I'm turning up blank for expanding on them now (I love the "bard in a music box" thing, personally.)

As for Jedi truths, though: if she's talking to angels in Arcadia, that shouldn't work long. Find *some* angel who embodies actual, genuine, total honesty... not legalistic honesty, but actually conveying truth... and just have that angel call her on it. No in-game penalty, nothing stolen, no curses, just an embodiment of truth to say "Yeah, what you're doing isn't me."

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I think doing something truly horrible could still work, if you're evil enough for that (and I hope you're not honestly), but you can't do it to the angel itself. An angel won't shed a single tear from slowly being tortured out of existence, but it might weep when a dark wizard steals all the souls in Orphanville. (Home of the Orphanville Sparrows, who last year came in dead last in the wheelchair basketball league due to having to play on crutches.)

[TheifofZ]

The player is clearly slowly turning evil, even going so far to use a plot cooked up by Kefka from FF VI and cranking the cruelty of it up to 11.
If you want to actually save her alignment, I'd start with suitable dreams. Something representing turning away from the purity of nature, but convoluted and dark.
After that, you've got less than 2 weeks to escalate 'and the unicorn turns away from you' to 'And the angel of TRUTH slaps you and runs screaming because you have caused a violation of it's entirety with your smug empty truths.'

[Misereor]

Sad tears: Introduce Angel to the Bard in the party.
Happy tears: Slap the Bard in the party. Repeat as necessary.

[Braininthejar2]

The player is clearly slowly turning evil, even going so far to use a plot cooked up by Kefka from FF VI and cranking the cruelty of it up to 11.

"Snakes use poison, and they are natural. And making the fight easier protects my friends."


It seems I'm still getting replies to my original question, rather than to the new ones that developed from it - should I split it into a separate topic?

[zergling.exe]

"Snakes use poison, and they are natural. And making the fight easier protects my friends."


It seems I'm still getting replies to my original question, rather than to the new ones that developed from it - should I split it into a separate topic?

You can try replacing the OP with the new question. Otherwise there's nothing you can do if people just read the title and respond to that.

[Afgncaap5]

Idea one: move the angel to tears with something beautiful.

Of course the angels, living where they do, can be quite jaded to beauty. It would take something truly extraordinary to do it. But since the player chose to go to Arcadia, which is strongly law-aligned, a good bard would be a true rarity there.

Problem is, the party doesn't have a bard.

So, the quest would be "find a truly great (epic?) bard and persuade him to play for the angels." The thing is, no such character has even been hinted at in the campaign so far, and even in the planes, level 20+ characters don't grow on trees.

So, I'd need a smooth way to introduce him into the story, and then make an adventure out of it. I don't think he'd make another request from the player in return - this side quest is on a two weeks timer, and there is only so far I should stretch it. The idea that comes to my mind is perhaps the bard is imprisoned by someone powerful, like, held in a cage as a living music box by a titan in Carceri or something. - but then again, I'll need some non-awkward way to introduce this knowledge to the party. I can't just have some random NPC say "Hey, that bard X guy could do it, but he's imprisoned there and there..."

Okay, so... what, precisely, is her method of looking for information? I agree that you can't just drop legends on her, but is she asking around, reading old texts, sending letters to sages, or... something else? If she's just waiting for info to come to her, she might have to learn the hard way that adventuring requires proactivity.

As for a subtle way to look into the angel... what if we flipped the problem a bit and declared that there was actually an angel who used to be renowned for crying? This angel's job could have been to wander the worlds, looking for examples of beauty in landscapes, virtuous triumphs, artistic expression, simple truths, or act of heroism, and to denote these moments of grand and simple beauty by weeping joyous tears. However, ever since the musician Taliesin the Third was abducted by a Titan, the angel felt that great beauty prompted great treachery, and as such chose to keep his tears from shedding to protect the other beauties of the many worlds. Speaking with this angel or others who know the angel might reveal a deep longing to hear Taliesin's music again.




Idea two: accomplish something of personal significance to the angel

Long ago the angel lost something very important to him. Perhaps a loved one? There is something connected to that story that the player could recover, that is thought lost and beyond the angel's reach. "Fools rush in where angels fear to thread."

So, in that case, what is it, and how is it out of reach? Perhaps the lost love was a gardener, but the world she lived in is long gone, along with its flowers - but there is one place where they still grow, lost in a time anomaly/thrown into the astral? In here I could use some brainstorming ideas to flesh it out.

And the problem from idea one is even more pronounced here - the player would not only need to find some very obscure knowledge - she's have to know to look for it in the first place. This is the kind of thing you learn from oracles, but she has already visited two over the last two levels.

The idea with Taliesin would still work for this, actually. It kinda combines the two possibilities. Reunite the angel with the lost bardic music, and restore not only the angel's faith that rejoicing is not dangerous and that finding beauty in art, truth, and spectacle is, indeed, worthwhile.

Best part: an angel who cries at honest truths who resumes crying upon hearing the bard's music again would be a great emissary of truth since his whole deal is recognizing things for what they are and shedding tears at the beautiful way things are. If after hearing the music the player goes to ask for tears, the angel can eagerly ask what the tears are for. "Tell me of your heroic goals, champion!" The more the truth is dodged, the less confident the angel can be that the tears really fit, because the angel keeps saying that something isn't right and that without the whole story the beauty of the mission can't be seen.

Now, that might be a kind of let down for the player, putting in all that work to get an angel who doesn't shed tears, but if the angel can provide another, non-poisonous possibility upon learning the actual truth, then the player might have some more options to play with. The angel could even provide tears and say "Take these if you must, I do thank you, but know that no good comes from evil. I implore you to find another way, be it the one I've suggested or another."

If she doesn't take the poisons when granted another way out then the angel appearing again later to actually cry at her heel-face-turn might be a fun moment to build to.

[Coidzor]

I'm reminded of a scene from Kings Quest VI, where the Lord of the Dead is shown a mirror that shows only the truth and it shows himself and everything that transpired to make him what he is and brought him to that place in time.

Given the number of souls that are subsumed into an angel's form, even the lowest of them, simultaneously reminding all of those of who and what they were should have a powerful emotional effect.

That or cause critical existence failure.

[Afgncaap5]

I'm reminded of a scene from Kings Quest VI, where the Lord of the Dead is shown a mirror that shows only the truth and it shows himself and everything that transpired to make him what he is and brought him to that place in time.

Given the number of souls that are subsumed into an angel's form, even the lowest of them, simultaneously reminding all of those of who and what they were should have a powerful emotional effect.

That or cause critical existence failure.


Wait, angels used to be a multitude of good souls that just kinda merged together? I... missed that somehow. Where's that written up?

[zergling.exe]

Wait, angels used to be a multitude of good souls that just kinda merged together? I... missed that somehow. Where's that written up?

All outsiders are made up of the material of their plane, and the outer planes are made up of the souls of creatures that had the plane's respective alignment. So an angel is made up of good souls distilled into planar matter in a corporeal body.

[Nifft]

All outsiders are made up of the material of their plane, and the outer planes are made up of the souls of creatures that had the plane's respective alignment. So an angel is made up of good souls distilled into planar matter in a corporeal body.

Sugar and Smites and everything [Nice].

[Afgncaap5]

All outsiders are made up of the material of their plane, and the outer planes are made up of the souls of creatures that had the plane's respective alignment. So an angel is made up of good souls distilled into planar matter in a corporeal body.

I knew the former from the Monster Manual, but I've never heard that the planes are made of the souls of creatures, just that creatures' souls go there upon death. Is that something from Planescape? Or is it a weird corner of the DMG that I missed or something?

[Braininthejar2]

It's from Planescape. If a petitioner dies, he merges with the plane of his afterlife.

But if he somehow dies on a different plane than his intended afterlife, his essence scatters to the winds, lost forever.


However, planescape also had angels made from specific people, and not the plane itself - (basically, just like a sinner in hell turns into a lemure when he's tortured out of his mind, a saint who abandons self in his search of perfection becomes a lantern archon, and can the advance from there.)

[Calthropstu]

Deep in the abyss, there exists a demon who, hundreds of years ago, imprisoned 3 souls to torture for all eternity. These are good souls, they should be in the heavens. But there's more... the soul that ultimately became this powerful angel... these souls were loved ones in its mortal life.
Pretty sure you could work with that.

[Afgncaap5]

It's from Planescape. If a petitioner dies, he merges with the plane of his afterlife.

But if he somehow dies on a different plane than his intended afterlife, his essence scatters to the winds, lost forever.


However, planescape also had angels made from specific people, and not the plane itself - (basically, just like a sinner in hell turns into a lemure when he's tortured out of his mind, a saint who abandons self in his search of perfection becomes a lantern archon, and can the advance from there.)

Gotcha. Never been able to get my hands on Planescape material, so I've never incorporated it (or the other various fun things I hear about from there.) Then again, I don't do much planar travel in my games, so I'm not sure I'd have many options to.

Regarding having the angel look into the mirror, if I looked into it I wonder if I'd see all the dinosaurs, trilobytes, bananas, and whatnot that used to have the atoms I'm currently made up of.

[denthor]

When I'm done with the angel, I'll gate myself up a pit fiend and order it to bow, and grovel before me, while proclaiming its worthlessness.

This something they do on a regular basis. He'll is all about bondage an submission of the lesser to the greater. No biggive here.

Watch and learn

Red fel red fel red fel

He appears and answers me by agreement.

[Red Fel]

This something they do on a regular basis. He'll is all about bondage an submission of the lesser to the greater. No biggive here.

Watch and learn

Red fel red fel red fel

He appears and answers me by agreement.

BY THE COMPACT OF THE POWERS, AS IN ANCIENT TIMES, I RETURN TO-

Oh, hey. S'up?


I mean besides committing atrocities so horrible that heavens themselves weep?

Most high ranking angels seem to have eyes made of solid light - they don't really need tears.

So, what would one say if you asked him about it?

Oh, I have such lots of ideas. Why, just the other day, I-


Okay, so this will be a long post. I'm the GM in the campaign, and the one looking for the tears is my player. She has a difficult siege ahead of her, attacking a magical castle that will likely be warded against her usual tricks - so she decided to cheat by using poison on their water supply. Since she met a taanari poison maker during her previous adventures, she decided to visit him again - only he could brew something for her that would still be relevant at this level.

So, not quite so hypothetical, then. Okay, well, you start with an orphan, and-


The player has no idea how to get it, (short of traumatizing an angel, which she considers out of the question)

... Well, shucks, take all the fun out of it. Sigh. Okay.


So she has decided for a straightforward approach – find an angel in the nearest city, and ask one what it would take to make it cry. She knows this will raise some questions – she's decided for a "jedi truth" approach – she needs the tears to defeat an evil priestess, and save her allies from getting murdered (all technically true, as her allies are being hunted, and the villain operates from a hard to reach base – but she's going to omit the part where she wants to poison the hell out of the villains, and needs the angel's tears to pay a demon for it.)

You know, under those circumstances? Bluff well enough, and the angel might just cry voluntarily to give you what you want. Bit of an anticlimax, but beings of pure benevolence generally like helping people, and they have phenomenal muscle control.

Just trust me on that point.


Now, what I want from the adventure is the following:

1 I want to play with the myth/fairy tale theme – making an angel cry is something out of a myth, and she has at most two weeks to accomplish the feat. So, I need to come up with a suitably epic idea, and (hopefully subtly) guide the player towards it.

So, no anticlimactic, "Sure, I'll do it right now" bits. Gotcha.


2 I want to make the plot happen despite the fact that her deception is doomed to fail – she has two companions that are very reluctant to go with it, and while mortals in Arcadia might be of the gullible kind, the angels are not stupid (plus, she's an outsider there, so in such an orderly place, she's automatically a bit suspicious.) trying to arrest a level 20 druid would likely cause a horrible mess, and that's not really what this adventure is about.

3 I want this adventure to act as a warning. The player has grown too conceited. She doesn't consider herself evil, but excuses a lot of evil by "creatures following their nature". She has a big party of mixed alignments, and has taken to solving problems by asking the bad guys for advice first, since they are more cunning, and then if she finds the idea acceptable, but not entirely moral, do it behind the back of her good companions – in effect binding with the party members she doesn't trust, while abusing the trust of those she could.
And she keeps using 'jedi truth' and being smug about not lying. If she continues like this, it will bite her in the ass soon, perhaps so hard that it will bring the campaign to a premature end – there is a boss planned ahead, who tried to mess with the party's minds, by appearing as a dead hero, and painting them as monsters – using illusions to create cruel lies... but if he actually has truths to work with...

So... Have her get caught and fail?


Okay, after asking various people, some ideas have finally coalesced.

Idea one: move the angel to tears with something beautiful.

Nah, don't do that. Too generic and impersonal. No, instead, I'd suggest-


Idea two: accomplish something of personal significance to the angel

Okay, seriously? Everyone needs to stop interrupting, it's terribly rude. Yes, something personal. But I'd make it interesting.

When the PC stumbles upon an angel, she stumbles on three of them. Pick three personality archetypes (say, ditzy-happy, mellow-warm, stern-but-fair, etc.) and give each one a quicky background and desire. She gets a good look at all three, and can choose whom to approach. Depending on who she approaches, she gets different results. If she approaches any of them directly asking for tears, they all become very defensive and leave. Force her to be subtle and tricky, thus pointing out that she should know she's doing a naughty thing. If she approaches only one, she can try to finesse the approach, learn about her target, figure out what would make this angel weepy-happy. However, the other two will become suspicious, and may try to investigate or intervene, depending on their personality types. (For example, if she approaches ditzy-happy, the other two, knowing how gullible their colleague may be, may try to hover or something.) If she approaches more than one, they will become suspicious.

If she manages to finesse one of them, she can figure out what would make this one outrageously weepy-happy. Have an option for each. For example, ditzy-happy is a high-energy sort; show her something beautiful and still (e.g. a pristine mountain glen, a perfect sunrise vista, a breathtaking painting) and it will touch her deeply. Stern-but-fair is accustomed to people being polite but distant, because she can be off-putting; help her find a true friend willing to show her genuine warmth, trust, and affection, and watch her heart melt. And so forth.

Basically, this method forces her to (1) be subtle, which should warn her about the nature of what she's doing; (2) isolate one from its friends, again warning her; (3) watch out for interference from other angels, again warning her; and (4) figure out something deeply personal about a character, without being told directly.

Honestly, these are just some ideas I'm spitballing. Most of my usual methods of acquiring angel's tears involve bamboo rods.

[Nifft]

Honestly, these are just some ideas I'm spitballing. Most of my usual methods of acquiring angel's tears involve bamboo rods. Indeed, sexual pleasure can be quite effective.

[Calthropstu]

Sugar and Smites and everything [Nice].

Why do I now want to watch a show called "Angelpuff girls"...

[The Viscount]

Why do I now want to watch a show called "Angelpuff girls"...

That sort of describes Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt, in a rather twisted way.
Actually, showing the angels that might do it.

[Nifft]

Why do I now want to watch a show called "Angelpuff girls"...

I'm totally going to start using "Angelpuff" for Lantern Archons.

[Coidzor]

I'm totally going to start using "Angelpuff" for Lantern Archons.

Especially when they're served as hors d'eouvres.

[Red Fel]

Especially when they're served as hors d'eouvres.

I see you've attended one of my soirees.