Adventurers conquer Westeros. (Warning Spoilers)

[Tainted_Scholar]

A group of 6 D&D adventurers arrive in Westeros immediately after Ned Stark is beheaded. They arrive 300 Kilometers north of Castle Black. They're ultimate goal is to conquer Westeros and eventually the world.

A few rules;

-The adventurers start at level one.
-They will not betray each other at any point.
-Mid to Low practical optimization is assumed.
-The Adventurers have no knowledge of the Setting, and only know that they are there to take over. EDIT; They also know to head south.
-We will not be using the D20 Game of Thrones stats for any of the ASoIaF characters.
-Book Canon for ASoIaF.
-All first party material is allowed for the Adventurers.

Can they conquer the world?

[ColorBlindNinja]

What classes are we looking at?

I'd say that unless they're stupid, they shouldn't have any trouble conquering Westeros.

All they need is to reach level 4 or so, and they should be nigh unstoppable.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Hmmmm. 1. Sign on with Rob Stark. 2. Get a few levels under their belt. 3. Slaughter all the bad guys at the red wedding because d&d adventurers never give up their weapons and armor and they expect that kind of thing. 4 wait for Rob Stark to win the war. Gain more levels helping him. 5. Betray him and take over.

[Gildedragon]

Well assuming starting at lvl 1 at GoT start, yes?
Getting involved in the Wo5K is probably the best way to level up.
An easybake wizard is probably the handiest route: a number of spells are 4tW in Westeros. Zone of Truth, for example.

Dominate Monster to get some dragons.

Craft Magic Arms and Armor is very very handy in Westeros.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Dominate Monster to get some dragons.

This is E6.

[Gildedragon]

This is E6.

Just saw the tag outside. Is it ever faint against the BG.

Still. Magic does probably give one the biggest edge v. the rest of the world.

Bard is a handy tool in the massive battle scenario, and a competent player in courtly intrigue. However they are a bit... Lacking with the imminent Targaryen restoration (socialization probably a viable tactic) and White Walker invasion.
Taking over westeros needs to deal with these two threats.
The latter is a bigger problem. Not the undead servants. Prestidigitation is pretty handy against them (finger of fire) let alone Fireball.
Their bosses are more of a problem.

...
Oh well. Dragonfire inspiration Bard is probably the best shot. The diplomacy prowess can keep one alive and near the top of the power pyramid without much trouble, and being able to buff the army with fire weapons will be handy when the undead appear.

[Hackulator]

Level 1 adventurers probably just die if they appear 300 km north of castle black with no idea whats going on.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Level 1 adventurers probably just die if they appear 300 km north of castle black with no idea whats going on.

Your reasoning for this, is?

[Hackulator]

Your reasoning for this, is?

They are 300 km north of civilization and they have no idea which direction to go. They are in the White Walkers territory and the Walkers started killing ranging parties a long time ago.

[Tainted_Scholar]

They are 300 km north of civilization and they have no idea which direction to go. They are in the White Walkers territory and the Walkers started killing ranging parties a long time ago.

So? I doubt Wights would be much of a threat to them, and the chances of encountering a White Walker is pretty low. Plus, even if they ran into a Walker they could kill it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

So? I doubt Wights would be much of a threat to them, and the chances of encountering a White Walker is pretty low. Plus, even if they ran into a Walker they could kill it.

This is especially true if they have a spellcaster who likes using Fireball.

[Tainted_Scholar]

This is especially true if they have a spellcaster who likes using Fireball.

They start at first level, so Lesser Orb of Fire instead.

[ColorBlindNinja]

They start at first level, so Lesser Orb of Fire instead.

Pyromaniac's will always have a way to set things on fire.

[Palanan]

You know, this whole concept just sings out for a webcomic, something along the lines of DM of the Rings. :smalltongue:

A lot of this is pretty DM-specific, starting with the basics, such as what deities are available, what domains they grant, etc. etc. It's also up to the DM whether any arcane casters will ever find any other spellbooks to copy from, or if they're stuck with only the spells they get from regular leveling.

It's also worth asking if the party will be able to accumulate magic items through the traditional method, i.e. fighting and killing things. I don't know much about Westeros, but I don't have the impression there are wands, potions and magic goggles with every bandit gang.

And on and on. This could be fun for the party, but I'm seeing a lot of work for the DM.

[Knaight]

So? I doubt Wights would be much of a threat to them, and the chances of encountering a White Walker is pretty low. Plus, even if they ran into a Walker they could kill it.

These are level one characters. Even if the Wights are assumed to be less dangerous than the typical wildling warrior (doubtful), and the typical wildling warrior is going to lose a fight against a level one fighter (not unreasonable, given what a level one fighter is supposed to represent in setting), all it takes is for a dozen or so to show up at once, and the characters are probably dead. The characters are hosed unless some of the extreme TO stuff shows up, and that's explicitly banned.

[ColorBlindNinja]

These are level one characters. Even if the Wights are assumed to be less dangerous than the typical wildling warrior (doubtful), and the typical wildling warrior is going to lose a fight against a level one fighter (not unreasonable, given what a level one fighter is supposed to represent in setting), all it takes is for a dozen or so to show up at once, and the characters are probably dead. The characters are hosed unless some of the extreme TO stuff shows up, and that's explicitly banned.

D&D adventures are not really comparable to wildling warriors; adventurers are a cut above average folks and soldiers.

Party make up matters here, spellcasters can pretty easily disable a large group of enemies, while martial characters have to rely on their HP and combat skills.

Edit: There's no guarantee that the D&D characters will even come across a large group of Wights.

[Tainted_Scholar]

A lot of this is pretty DM-specific, starting with the basics, such as what deities are available, what domains they grant, etc. etc.

The adventurers have access to any first party D&D deity.


It's also up to the DM whether any arcane casters will ever find any other spellbooks to copy from, or if they're stuck with only the spells they get from regular leveling.

No such spell books exist in Westeros, however Independent Research does exist though it's unclear how it works.


It's also worth asking if the party will be able to accumulate magic items through the traditional method, i.e. fighting and killing things. I don't know much about Westeros, but I don't have the impression there are wands, potions and magic goggles with every bandit gang.

They couldn't find magic items, they'd have to craft them.


Even if the Wights are assumed to be less dangerous than the typical wildling warrior (doubtful)

Why is that doubtful?


all it takes is for a dozen or so to show up at once, and the characters are probably dead.

A party of six could probably take a dozen Wights in battle, especially if they have have a Druid (The animal companion is basically another beat-stick).

[InvisibleBison]

Why is that doubtful?

Because if you stick your sword in a typical wilding warrior, he dies. If you stick your sword in a wight, it rips your sword-arm off and beats you to death with it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Because if you stick your sword in a typical wilding warrior, he dies. If you stick your sword in a wight, it rips your sword-arm off and beats you to death with it.

Kind of like level 1 Barbarians. :smallwink:

[Tainted_Scholar]

Because if you stick your sword in a typical wilding warrior, he dies. If you stick your sword in a wight, it rips your sword-arm off and beats you to death with it.

Fair enough.

[Nifft]

Do they at least know that they need to go south to find someone to talk with about stuff like "where the heck are we" and "what is going on" and "what's up with all those undead ice-jerks we had to kill to get here"?

I mean, if you just dump some PCs on an ice-biome, they may assume they're on One Biome Planet and look for ways to make a permanent home.

------------

In terms of what they'd want to have to survive the White Walkers:

Trogdor - Fire, all day & all night. Dragonfire Adept, hello! Conveniently, the Endure Exposure invocation will also help with the wilderness survival. Feat: Entangling Exhalation, of course.

Aurora - Wilderness survival, healing, and disposable meat-shields. Druid to the rescue. If Dragon Magazine content is allowed, then one neat way to break E6 is the feat Initiate of Olidammara, which gets Olidammara's Bard Spell as a level 2 spell. This allows her to prepare 3 levels of Bard spells in trade for a level 2 Druid slot, and 10 minutes of casting time -- that means glibness, charm monster, and lesser geas are all available at character level 3, not to mention level 2 Bard goodies like suggestion and tongues.

Those two would be the most vital, and honestly could probably handle the take-over themselves. But if I got 4 more characters, I'd look for long-term benefits, setting-changers, and wide-ranged effects:

- Paladin with From Song to Smite (and Dragonblood subtype, for Dragonfire Inspiration)
- ... or a Crusader (Song-to-Smite Paladin 1 / Crusader 5 with Song of the White Raven)

- Generic Wizard or Psion
- Changeling Swordage ("Valar Morghulis")
- Totemist 2 / Ardent 4 (with the Practiced Manifester feat at level 3 to take higher-level powers; then spend 3 of your "Epic" feats to open your crown, hands, and feet) -- be a Silverbrow Human to get the Dragon Magic soulmelds; one of your feats ought to be Hidden Talent.

- Rule-breaker like an Artificer
- Rule-breaker like a Spell-to-Power Erudiate
- Rule-breaker like a Cleric who can make use of good Domains + Versatile Spellcaster
- Rule-breaker like a Dragonwrought Kobold with Loredrake, Rite of Greater Draconic Passage, and Spellhoard (i.e. have 6 HD but cast as a level 9 Wizard)

[ShurikVch]

Note: technically, Westeros already is a D&D campaign setting - Dragon #307 have stuff for it, including Ranger of the Night's Watch PrC, stats for some important characters, monster equivalency table, and even the interview with George R.R. Martin "A Song of Dice & Fire"

Sidebar "Magic in Westeros" give three possible options:
No Magic At All: Core non-magical classes only; 25% of usual WBL
Restricted Magic: Magic is available only up to certain level (usually 4th); 50% of usual WBL
Just Play D&D: Self-explanatory; everything is available, but encounters including monsters and equipment which we wouldn't see in the series

[Tainted_Scholar]

Do they at least know that they need to go south to find someone to talk with about stuff like "where the heck are we" and "what is going on" and "what's up with all those undead ice-jerks we had to kill to get here"?

I mean, if you just dump some PCs on an ice-biome, they may assume they're on One Biome Planet and look for ways to make a permanent home.

Good point, they also know to head South.


Note: technically, Westeros already is a D&D campaign setting - Dragon #307 have stuff for it, including Ranger of the Night's Watch PrC, stats for some important characters, monster equivalency table, and even the interview with George R.R. Martin "A Song of Dice & Fire"

Sidebar "Magic in Westeros" give three possible options:
No Magic At All: Core non-magical classes only; 25% of usual WBL
Restricted Magic: Magic is available only up to certain level (usually 4th); 50% of usual WBL
Just Play D&D: Self-explanatory; everything is available, but encounters including monsters and equipment which we wouldn't see in the series

I already said no to D20 Game of Thrones, I should probably say no to this as well.

[Elkad]

Wait, can't betray one another?
That's not canon.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Wait, can't betray one another?

It's all because of the power of friendship! :smalltongue:

[Nifft]

-All first party material is allowed for the Adventurers.


Is Dragon Magazine counted as first-party?

[Tainted_Scholar]

Is Dragon Magazine counted as first-party?

Yes it is.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Is Dragon Magazine counted as first-party?

It's officially endorsed by WotC, isn't it?

[ShurikVch]

I already said no to D20 Game of Thrones, I should probably say no to this as well.Don't get me wrong, I'm OK with it, but...
How then you will apply game mechanics to non-game world?
All those hit points, saving throws...
If our Adventurers are able to make only a single attack in a 6 seconds, then the very 1st wildling will kill them all

[Tainted_Scholar]

Don't get me wrong, I'm OK with it, but...
How then you will apply game mechanics to non-game world?
All those hit points, saving throws...

We should probably treat ASoIaF like low level NPC Classes for HP and Saving throws. It's not hard to model normal people in D&D.


If our Adventurers are able to make only a single attack in a 6 seconds, then the very 1st wildling will kill them all

There's more going on in those Six seconds than just attacking, the Adventurer is also dodging attacks, moving, aiming they're blow, watching area around them, etc.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If our Adventurers are able to make only a single attack in a 6 seconds, then the very 1st wildling will kill them all

That's just abstraction, the rules assume they're doing more than just attacking.

Edit: D20 Game of Thrones is kinda wonky from what I've seen of it, anyway.

[ShurikVch]

We should probably treat ASoIaF like low level NPC Classes for HP and Saving throws. It's not hard to model normal people in D&D.1. How low is the "low"?
2. What's about the monsters? Direwolf, Shadowcat...

[Tainted_Scholar]

1. How low is the "low"?

Most people in Westeros probably only have around 4 HP. A shot from a Crossbow would leave them dying for example.


2. What's about the monsters? Direwolf, Shadowcat...

Still probably fairly fragile.

[Nifft]

Yes it is.

Neat.

That really kicks open the doors of low-level optimization.

BTW, do the GoT "wights" count as Undead? If so, what kind (and roughly how many HD do they average)?

[Tainted_Scholar]

BTW, do the GoT "wights" count as Undead? If so, what kind (and roughly how many HD do they average)?

I see no reason for them to not be undead. As for their hit dice probably one or two, depending on the state of the wight.

[Kish]

Oh wow. This would actually make me want to play in a campaign set in the Game of Thrones world; I thought that was impossible.

[JBPuffin]

I'm a stranger to the concept of E6, but from what I read it's literally just the first 6 levels of 3.5 with some minor changes besides? In that case, "standard" 6-man party of fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue, ranger, bard shouldn't have too many problems. Something tells me barbarian, ranger, bard, paladin, druid, rogue works better for blending in and for surviving both wilderness and urban encounters, but I could be wrong.

And all 1st party content? Bring along a swordsage, or a totemist, or something crazy like that. I'll trust other people to exact strategies, but on the surface this seems like a no-brainer win for team DND.

Edit: AND Dragon? Dude, Westeros won't even know what hit it. It's like Harry Potter and the Natural 20, but much more grimy and with better foreign languages.

[Kish]

This is E6 (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_(3.5e_Sourcebook)).

[ColorBlindNinja]

And all 1st party content? Bring along a swordsage, or a totemist, or something crazy like that. I'll trust other people to exact strategies, but on the surface this seems like a no-brainer win for team DND.

I was thinking of a Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite StP party myself.


Edit: AND Dragon? Dude, Westeros won't even know what hit it. It's like Harry Potter and the Natural 20, but much more grimy and with better foreign languages.

Pretty much.

[Nifft]

I'm a stranger to the concept of E6, but from what I read it's literally just the first 6 levels of 3.5 with some minor changes besides? In that case, "standard" 6-man party of fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue, ranger, bard shouldn't have too many problems. Something tells me barbarian, ranger, bard, paladin, druid, rogue works better for blending in and for surviving both wilderness and urban encounters, but I could be wrong. Here's the main rules impact:



Rules

Character progression from level 1 to level 6 is as per d20. Upon attaining 6th level, for each 5000 experience a character gains, they earn a new feat. A diverse selection of feats should be made available in any E6 campaign, however, feats with unattainable prerequisites under this system remain unattainable.

For the purpose of experience awards, treat each 5 feats as +1 CR (or level), to an upper limit of 20 feats. After this, it becomes more and more difficult to bring all a character’s feats to bear in a given situation; although they continue to gain feats, 6th level characters with more than 20 feats can continue to be treated as if they were level 10 for experience and challenge purposes.

The source of E6 is EN World, and this thread is a good explanation: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D

[Mendicant]

They will not betray each other at any point.

They take that whole planet in a walk.

[Knaight]

Most people in Westeros probably only have around 4 HP. A shot from a Crossbow would leave them dying for example.

This gets into the issue of D&D as a model. Yes, a shot from a crossbow could kill just about anyone in Westeros. On the other hand, we've seen what happens when the best warriors of Westeros are at war, and they're taking out more than one person per six seconds. These suggest a maximum level of 3-4 and a minimum level of 6. Clearly this doesn't work, which just tells us what we already know - literary characters do not have D&D classes. It's probably better to go the other way, taking what D&D classes represent in the world and translating that over.

[ColorBlindNinja]

This gets into the issue of D&D as a model. Yes, a shot from a crossbow could kill just about anyone in Westeros. On the other hand, we've seen what happens when the best warriors of Westeros are at war, and they're taking out more than one person per six seconds. These suggest a maximum level of 3-4 and a minimum level of 6. Clearly this doesn't work, which just tells us what we already know - literary characters do not have D&D classes. It's probably better to go the other way, taking what D&D classes represent in the world and translating that over.

The limited number of attacks in 6 seconds is an abstraction; the rules assume you're doing more than just attacking.

[Tainted_Scholar]

This gets into the issue of D&D as a model. Yes, a shot from a crossbow could kill just about anyone in Westeros. On the other hand, we've seen what happens when the best warriors of Westeros are at war, and they're taking out more than one person per six seconds. These suggest a maximum level of 3-4 and a minimum level of 6. Clearly this doesn't work, which just tells us what we already know - literary characters do not have D&D classes. It's probably better to go the other way, taking what D&D classes represent in the world and translating that over.

The D&D characters will run on the rules of D&D, while the ASoIaF characters will run on the rules of their setting. Interactions between the two shouldn't be that hard to do.

[Nifft]

So, E6 Druid optimization...

Totem Druid:
- L1: Wild Shape (only into your totem) 1/day
- L2: Natural Spell
- L3: Wild Shape 2/day
- L4: (usual Druid stuff)
- L5: Wild Shape 3/day
- L6: Dire Totem Shape 1/day

Your animal companion is the same type of creature as your Totem.

The two Totems to look at are Eagle and Tiger:
- Being an Eagle at low levels is awesome for hide-and-smite tactics (which comes online at level 2), and at level 6 you can turn into a Large Dire Eagle 1/day.
- Having a Tiger to ride on at low levels is sweet, and at level 1 you get to have and be a disproportionately strong beatstick with free Pounce. The level 6 Dire form is not as big a deal for you.

You lose out on some long-term flexibility, but a normal Druid would be limited to Small & Medium forms at this point -- they don't get Large forms until level 8.

=== === ===

What else is optimal ~300k north of the Wall?
- Not having to eat. Elan, Warforged... what else?
- Eating less (being small). Kobolds, Halflings, Gnomes, Pixies...
- Being able to walk all day. Warforged again.

Hmm, Pixie... at LA +4 (per the SRD), that's an E6 point buy of 0, so just her raw stats. But those are pretty great! Str 6, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 16 -- that's quite respectable, especially on a flying & invisible creature in a low-magic world.

Ooo, on the subject: Sylph from MM2. She has 3 RHD and her LA is +5, which translates into E6 point buy 0 & LA +1 (which can be bought off). Here's the horrible thing: she casts as a Sorcerer of her RHD +4. So once she finishes her racial class, she's ECL 4 with Sorc 7 spellcasting (at 3 RHD / LA +1), then she buys off her remaining LA, and then she takes 3 levels of Sorcerer, landing at Sorcerer 10 casting at ECL 6.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I hear that Incarnates are pretty good at low levels, I've heard the same with thing about the ToB classes.

[johnbragg]

This gets into the issue of D&D as a model. Yes, a shot from a crossbow could kill just about anyone in Westeros. On the other hand, we've seen what happens when the best warriors of Westeros are at war, and they're taking out more than one person per six seconds. These suggest a maximum level of 3-4 and a minimum level of 6. Clearly this doesn't work, which just tells us what we already know - literary characters do not have D&D classes. It's probably better to go the other way, taking what D&D classes represent in the world and translating that over.

Disagree. Model with feats Rapid Shot and Great Cleave--all available to 1st level human fighters who spend all 3 feats. (EDIT: possibly add a homebrewed version of Manyshot sort of like Power Attack, adding 1 arrow per point of BAB, rolled at +0 BAB?)

You could also model a lot of medieval-setting characters as gestalt Warrior//Experts. Lose a couple HP and feats, pick up the skill points to reflect aristocratic education, or wilderness experience, or diplomancy.

My demographic rules of thumb are 50% 1st level, 37.5% 2nd level, 10% 3rd. But NPCs don't get max hp at 1st level, so that averages to 6 hp, 11, 18 plus a point per level for Con bonus. Max damage with a crossbow is a real threat, especially if the shooter has precision damage.

Also, you can model (possibly houserule) a lot of surprise-murders as coup-de-grace.

Also also, you don't have to hew closely to "HP-as-meat." HD past level 1 can be burned off just through the exhaustion of combat--parrying a mighty blow takes something out of you, etc.

[ShurikVch]

Honestly, I don't see them making that big splashes.

D&D adventures are very chamber; release adventurers into big wide world - and they would be lost
Characters of 10+ level could do it, but we're speaking about E6 there

Also, if they will really make some serious waves, Melisandre will just wipe them off the table (unless they join her)


They arrive 300 Kilometers north of Castle Black.
...
-The adventurers start at level one.
...
-Mid to Low practical optimization is assumed.
-The Adventurers have no knowledge of the Setting, and only know that they are there to take over. EDIT; They also know to head south.I'm sorry, but in that case - they are dead.
1st-level parties aren't go into wilderness - they're exterminating rats in basements and cellars (which still may lead to occasional TPK (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19067910&postcount=1))
1st-level party in the wilderness is dead as a doornail (short of DM fiat, or TO). Pair of bog-standard Wolves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm) is a "Very Difficult" encounter. Minimal pack (7) - "Overpowering"
And you put them "300 Kilometers north of Castle Black".
Hello, direwolves, giants, ice spiders, shadowcats, snow bears, wildlings, and wights...



ArtificerArtificer is banned in E6



A Wizard with Craft Wand can subvert entire kingdoms.How? :smallconfused:
A Cleric with Craft Wondrous Item and lots of onyx can make the masses bow.How? Animate Dead?
(Also, firstly you will need to get the "lots of onyx")
A Thrallherd is practically an endless source of spies and soldiers.Thrallherd - at the cap of E6 - gives you 1 (one) 5th-level Thrall; ten 1st-level Believers, and one 2nd-level (presuming you maximized your Leadership Score). It's useful, but hardly game-breaking



Ooo, on the subject: Sylph from MM2. She has 3 RHD and her LA is +5, which translates into E6 point buy 0 & LA +1 (which can be bought off). Here's the horrible thing: she casts as a Sorcerer of her RHD +4. So once she finishes her racial class, she's ECL 4 with Sorc 7 spellcasting (at 3 RHD / LA +1), then she buys off her remaining LA, and then she takes 3 levels of Sorcerer, landing at Sorcerer 10 casting at ECL 6.I really doubt LA rules are working like you says
As I see it, standard LA mechanics was replaced with point buy reduction. This way, you can play as high-LA monster without the usual hassle; but LA above 4 is completely unavailable
In general, combining various different variants of standard rules always may be problematic - because they're just weren't designed to work together. (For example, how you will combine LA buy-off with Savage Progressions (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp)?)
Yes, Sylph could be very very good for E6 - if it was able to work in it
But if LA +5 come online, then the game is over: Vampiric Dragon (Dragonwrought Kobold) will dominate everybody


Monsters who're actually fit in E6:
Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightmare.htm) - 6 HD and LA +4; it's a tight squeeze, but still fit in E6 borders; exclusive access to Etherealness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealness.htm) and Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm)... :smallwink:
Dweomervore (Dragon #307) - this small dragon have very impressive arsenal of SLAs: Blur, Cat’s Grace, Color Spray, Daze, Detect Magic, Identify, Invisibility, Obscuring Mist, Reduce Person, See Invisibility, and Tongues; the sweet part is - all of those SLAs are at-will, and don't limited "self only" - all-party buffs any time, all the time!; also, telekinetic BW
Worm That Walks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/wormThatWalks.htm) - SRD doesn't say it, but in the book template have LA +4; one more "gamestopper" - 200 HD of Colossal Vermins would eat any army - Dragons and White Walkers included -, and Discorporate make it immune to any targeted attacks

[ColorBlindNinja]

Honestly, I don't see them making that big splashes.

Really? Even 3rd level D&D magic is pretty potent.


D&D adventures are very chamber; release adventurers into big wide world - and they would be lost
Characters of 10+ level could do it, but we're speaking about E6 there

Also, if they will really make some serious waves, Melisandre will just wipe them off the table (unless they join her)

How would she do that?


I'm sorry, but in that case - they are dead.
1st-level parties aren't go into wilderness - they're exterminating rats in basements and cellars (which still may lead to occasional TPK (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19067910&postcount=1))
1st-level party in the wilderness is dead as a doornail (short of DM fiat, or TO). Pair of bog-standard Wolves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm) is a "Very Difficult" encounter. Minimal pack (7) - "Overpowering"
And you put them "300 Kilometers north of Castle Black".
Hello, direwolves, giants, ice spiders, shadowcats, snow bears, wildlings, and wights...

Do you have any proof that these creatures are actually as dangerous as you claim?

D&D adventurers are capable of superhuman feats (not D&D feats) at level 1.



Artificer is banned in E6

Since when?



But if LA +5 come online, then the game is over: Vampiric Dragon (Dragonwrought Kobold) will dominate everybody

Why be a vampire? Just be a Dragonwrought Kobold, they're better.

[napoleon_in_rag]

A group of 6 D&D adventurers arrive in Westeros immediately after Ned Stark is beheaded. They arrive 300 Kilometers north of Castle Black. They're ultimate goal is to conquer Westeros and eventually the world.

A few rules;

-The adventurers start at level one.
-They will not betray each other at any point.
-Mid to Low practical optimization is assumed.
-The Adventurers have no knowledge of the Setting, and only know that they are there to take over. EDIT; They also know to head south.
-We will not be using the D20 Game of Thrones stats for any of the ASoIaF characters.
-Book Canon for ASoIaF.
-All first party material is allowed for the Adventurers.

Can they conquer the world?

Being that there is very little magic in ASoIaF, my money would be on the players. The hardest part would be the first few levels. After that, it would be easy until Dany showed up with her dragons.

Even Melisandre wouldn't be that hard. In the book it said that most of her perceived powers are just sleight of hand tricks. Assuming they don't run into a white walker, though.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Honestly, I don't see them making that big splashes.

Really, cause a lvl. 6 Barbarian could solo the Kingsguard, and a Wizard would probably amass a religion around herself.


D&D adventures are very chamber; release adventurers into big wide world - and they would be lost
Characters of 10+ level could do it, but we're speaking about E6 there

Sandbox games are a thing you know, plus they have a goal, they want to take over. It is completely possible for them to do so.


Also, if they will really make some serious waves, Melisandre will just wipe them off the table (unless they join her)

You mean with her shadow monsters? An ability that she's used like 3 times in the entire series. I'm not even sure that would work anyway.


I'm sorry, but in that case - they are dead.
1st-level parties aren't go into wilderness - they're exterminating rats in basements and cellars (which still may lead to occasional TPK (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19067910&postcount=1))
1st-level party in the wilderness is dead as a doornail (short of DM fiat, or TO). Pair of bog-standard Wolves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm) is a "Very Difficult" encounter. Minimal pack (7) - "Overpowering"
And you put them "300 Kilometers north of Castle Black".
Hello, direwolves, giants, ice spiders, shadowcats, snow bears, wildlings, and wights...

You seem to be underestimating the adventurers. A group of six Adventurers could easily win a fight against a dozen Wildlings, there weren't that many direwolves, I doubt they'd come across any giants, wights similarly aren't that much of a threat, and Ice spiders haven't actually appeared yet. They aren't going to go through a Congo line of the worst that the wild has to offer. Also D&D wolves are tougher than real ones.


Artificer is banned in E6

This is the first I've heard of this. They won't be banned for this challenge.

Why are they banned anyway?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Why are they banned anyway?

I read the E6 rules several times, and I couldn't find anything indicating that Artificers are banned.

If they are, it's probably because they have access to 4th level magic at level 5.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Being that there is very little magic in ASoIaF, my money would be on the players. The hardest part would be the first few levels. After that, it would be easy until Dany showed up with her dragons.

There's always Shivering Touch.


Assuming they don't run into a white walker, though.

Bad luck, the bane of any low level D&D group.

[johnbragg]

This is the first I've heard of this. They won't be banned for this challenge.

Why are they banned anyway?

Their ability to produce magic items off of any class list in the game. It's a DC 20 + caster level UMD check. Figure +4 for 18 Int, +4 ranks, +3 Skill Focus (UMD), +2 MAgical Aptitude and that's a +13 at first level. SEcond level gives another +3 (+1 rank, +2 for Spellcraft synergy) for a +16 check.

The available shenanigans either make this a terrible idea for a GoT campaign--or the BEST idea for a GoT campaign.

EDIT: I strongly suspect that artificers aren't banned or mentioned in the E6 rules because Ryan Slaughton hadn't played Eberron.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Their ability to produce magic items off of any class list in the game. It's a DC 20 + caster level UMD check. Figure +4 for 18 Int, +4 ranks, +3 Skill Focus (UMD), +2 MAgical Aptitude and that's a +13 at first level. SEcond level gives another +3 (+1 rank, +2 for Spellcraft synergy) for a +16 check.

The available shenanigans either make this a terrible idea for a GoT campaign--or the BEST idea for a GoT campaign.

I'd say the best idea.

At level 5 they can make a scroll of Lesser Planar Binding and use it to get a Mirror Mephit. Simulacrum Spam for the win!

[Nifft]

Artificer is banned in E6
Apparently not this one, since all first-party content is explicitly allowed.



I really doubt LA rules are working like you says
If you are able to find the first link which leads to the E6 rules, you'll get to a wiki page.

On that wiki page, if you scroll down, you'll see this:

http://i.imgur.com/a0rL58s.png

That said, we haven't received any guidance from the OP about which specific rules he's going to use -- so you might have a point, but you might not.




Yes, Sylph could be very very good for E6 - if it was able to work in it
But if LA +5 come online, then the game is over: Vampiric Dragon (Dragonwrought Kobold) will dominate
Hmm, yeah, that template is probably under-costed.

However it's not all that great -- sunlight still destroys you, you're bound to your "hoard" (whatever that means for a level 1 PC), the stat bumps are poor compared to 32 point buy (Str +4, Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4), you get a bunch of crappy feats but you can't Dark Chaos Shuffle them in E6.



Worm That Walks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/wormThatWalks.htm) - SRD doesn't say it, but in the book template have LA +4; one more "gamestopper" - 200 HD of Colossal Vermins would eat any army - Dragons and White Walkers included -, and Discorporate make it immune to any targeted attacks
... with flat 10 ability scores across the board?

No immunity to weapon damage? No immunity to Fire or Cold damage?

1d8 HP, no bonus from Con, and no way to make people stop fearing you... that seems like a poor decision.

You gon die son.

[Hackulator]

How are you making magic items with no access to materials for magic item creation?

[Coidzor]

What's this about matches being potentially lethal to the White Walkers' zombie hordes, now?


So? I doubt Wights would be much of a threat to them, and the chances of encountering a White Walker is pretty low. Plus, even if they ran into a Walker they could kill it.

Wights (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm) are a huge threat to level 1 characters, as a single successful melee attack by the Wight will kill the character and turn them into another Wight. That's assuming they can get into melee with the party, of course. If the party can kite them, then all the Wight can do is throw javelins or sling at them with a +3 to hit and twice as much HP as many party members.

A White Walker doesn't have an attack that will kill a person even if it touches their shield or boot, as far as I can recall.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Wights (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm)are a huge threat to level 1 characters, as a single successful melee attack by the Wight will kill the character and turn them into another Wight.

Wights from ASoIaF are different from D&D Wights.

[ColorBlindNinja]

How are you making magic items with no access to materials for magic item creation?

A Song of Ice and Fire has magic.

Strictly RAW, you can just buy them for however much gold they cost.

[Coidzor]

How are you making magic items with no access to materials for magic item creation?

That's a bad assumption. Many, if not all, materials for magic item creation are just mundane materials, such as gemstones, which can be acquired from the mundane economy of basically any world with an economy.


Wights from ASoIaF are different from D&D Wights.

Ahh, I thought you were saying that White Walkers aren't a threat because D&D Wights aren't a threat.

[Coidzor]

Given that they appear 300 km north of Castle Black, that means they're North of Craster's Keep but south of Hardhome, at least according to the map (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/6/6c/Westeros_-_Byound_the_wall.jpg) I could find.

If they were further north or the part of the Frostfangs they could appear in contained the Thenns, then those dudes would be their best bet, especially since you can get their leader to work with you if you can beat him three times in a row like Mance Rayder.

Hmm. Hardhome is supposed to be infested with monsters, so after gaining a few levels off of wildlings and hoping they manage to avoid getting nommed by the big fish, if there's anything to it, that might be an option for a dungeoncrawl to get some XP in.

I don't think they'd get to level 3 before reaching The Wall just from Random Encounters alone. That said, the party's strong dudes should be able to just climb over the wall without much issue, given that 6th level Barbarians can climb up Mount Everest naked from what I recall.

[Kallimakus]

Really, cause a lvl. 6 Barbarian could solo the Kingsguard, and a Wizard would probably amass a religion around herself.

At what ballpark would you place the Kingsguard? I ask in order to grasp the design philosophy here.

[ColorBlindNinja]

At what ballpark would you place the Kingsguard? I ask in order to grasp the design philosophy here.

I'd stat them around level 3, and maybe 4-5 for the veterans.

Edit:

Their HP would probably be too high, though.

[Hackulator]

That's a bad assumption. Many, if not all, materials for magic item creation are just mundane materials, such as gemstones, which can be acquired from the mundane economy of basically any world with an economy.



In the section on creating magic items it says you need magic supplies.

[Coidzor]

In the section on creating magic items it says you need magic supplies.

:smallconfused:

It sounds like you've gotten confused somewhere and think that magic supplies are themselves magic items.

[Elkad]

"Wights" are probably more like a juju zombie with a cold subtype.

Just dead and fast.

[Hackulator]

:smallconfused:

It sounds like you've gotten confused somewhere and think that magic supplies are themselves magic items.

Not that they are magic items, but that they are a specific kind of thing that you get in a place that provides such things, which wouldn't exist in Westeros. Like you also couldn't find an electronics store there.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Not that they are magic items, but that they are a specific kind of thing that you get in a place that provides such things, which wouldn't exist in Westeros. Like you also couldn't find an electronics store there.

Westeros has magic, what's stopping them from having magic materials? Especially when the rules are so vague about what they are.

[Hackulator]

Westeros has magic, what's stopping them from having magic materials? Especially when the rules are so vague about what they are.

You're probably correct you could find magic materials, but in Westeros I feel like that would require a huge amount of effort. I don't think you could just walk into a store and buy them.

[Elkad]

You're probably correct you could find magic materials, but in Westeros I feel like that would require a huge amount of effort. I don't think you could just walk into a store and buy them.


Magic weapons just mean defeating random lords in combat.

White Walkers have something like DR20/Magic or Obsidian.
Or maybe just a low DC/high damage Shatter effect so magic weapons save automatically, and everything else fails?

Not sure what else is around. Alchemist's Fire obviously, except as the magic grows it gets more effective.

[Hackulator]

Magic weapons just mean defeating random lords in combat.

White Walkers have something like DR20/Magic or Obsidian.

Not sure what else is around. Alchemist's Fire obviously, except as the magic grows it gets more effective.

I feel like Valyrian Steel is a special material more than those weapons are magic weapons, and that white walkers would have DR/Valyrian Steel or Obsidian.

[Nifft]

What's this about matches being potentially lethal to the White Walkers' zombie hordes, now?

Wights (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm) are a huge threat

In Westeros, a Wight is more like a paper-mâché zombie. Fire kills them extra hard.

== == ==

Anyway, back to broken choices due to the silly E6 LA rules...

The Unbodied - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm

- 4 RHD, which count as Psion (Telepath) levels for manifesting. Nice.

- LA +4, so you're stuck with the basic abilities, but they're tolerable: +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +4 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +4 Charisma. As an incorporeal creature, an unbodied has no Strength score.

- Did I mention INCORPOREAL: An unbodied is harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, powers, spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. It has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source, except for force effects or attacks made with ghost touch weapons. It can pass through solid objects, but not force effects, at will. Its attacks ignore natural armor, armor, and shields, but deflection bonuses and force effects work normally against them. An incorporeal creature always moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be.

- Piddly 1d6 melee touch attack -- but since it's invulnerable to mundane damage, it will have many dull one-sided battles, which it will win (eventually).

[ColorBlindNinja]

I recall a trick with Grey Elven Generalist, Domain Wizard, and Versatile Spellcaster to get 9th levels spells at level 1. I think you use alacritous cogitation to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster.

[Coidzor]

In Westeros, a Wight is more like a paper-mâché zombie. Fire kills them extra hard.

Yeah, but to the point that a tiny spark is dangerous, let alone lethal?


Not that they are magic items, but that they are a specific kind of thing that you get in a place that provides such things, which wouldn't exist in Westeros. Like you also couldn't find an electronics store there.

Except for items which don't exist in Westeros (Owlbear testicle, Gorgon's Spleen, Beholder Perineum), most of the stuff that D&D discusses as magical supplies, when it ever goes into detail, should be readily available through the Maesters and those who supply them as well as basically any kind of alchemical or shamanistic source.

So, yeah, they're going to be rarer in Westeros outside of certain areas than they are in, say, Ashai or what have you, but they're not unobtainium or something that would require an epic quest to get, more along the lines of a fetch quest once they get access to society.

[Tainted_Scholar]

At what ballpark would you place the Kingsguard? I ask in order to grasp the design philosophy here.

You really can't represent them with D&D levels. You can represent them with the system just fine, but you can't give them actual class levels. Their HP would be pretty low as would their damage output, BAB would be decent and they would have some combat feats, but nothing that would let them win against a lvl. 6 Raging Barbarian with a greatsword.

[Nifft]

Yeah, but to the point that a tiny spark is dangerous, let alone lethal? Well, to the point that my first choice of character was a Dragonfire Adept, so... not necessarily a tiny spark. More of a Trogdorito.

But also: not like a D&D SRD Wight. Not even close to that.


Except for items which don't exist in Westeros (Owlbear testicle, Gorgon's Spleen, Beholder Perineum), most of the stuff that D&D discusses as magical supplies, when it ever goes into detail, should be readily available through the Maesters and those who supply them as well as basically any kind of alchemical or shamanistic source. I don't recall those details being relevant in 3.5e.

Could you point me to a source for that?

Westeros has stuff like tears from a magical tree-god, and bones of a thousand-year-old virgin dragon ("Xythromax the Unfortunate"), and whatever was left in the steaming ruins of Old Valyria. There's blood-sacrifice magic, there's demon-summoning rituals, there's fire-dances that make shadow-demon babies -- there's magic stuff, you just need to adapt your Item Creation prerequisites (which are already pretty vague).

[TotallyNotEvil]

Most people in Westeros probably only have around 4 HP. A shot from a Crossbow would leave them dying for example.


See, this here is a problem. You will get some absurd stuff if you treat HP like that, instead of the mechanical representation of your wellbeing.

OOTS aside, the Barbarian with 150 HP doesn't shrug off a 1d8+2 longsword to the gut. He is barely scratched by it. Which is why it barely dents his HP. He doesn't shrug off having his throat slit from a coup d'grace just because he made his Fort save. If he survives, he hasn't had his throat slit at all. One should translate narrative into mechanics, not mechanics into narrative, or nonsense ensues.

Unless you want people running around like video-game protagonists with fifty arrows sticking to them :smallconfused:

Mechanics are an abstraction. Translating them 1:1 makes the exercise fairly pointless, as you run into absurdities, as you are considering people slightly less fragile than house cats.

Real Kingsguard material is probably sitting pretty at level 4~6, considering E6's excellent premise of "There are still major differences between the master warriors and the veteran mercenaries, but it's not a change of scale", emphasis mine, on which, IMO, is the single greatest insight they had.

Top tier warriors can slaughter their lessers wholesale, but they can also be drowned in numbers if not careful enough. So you probably have truly veteran mercenaries as, say, Warrior 4, but a full Knight as Fighter 4.

[ColorBlindNinja]

See, this here is a problem. You will get some absurd stuff if you treat HP like that, instead of the mechanical representation of your wellbeing.

OOTS aside, the Barbarian with 150 HP doesn't shrug off a 1d8+2 longsword to the gut. He is barely scratched by it. Which is why it barely dents his HP.

Unless you want people running around like video-game protagonists with fifty arrows sticking to them :smallconfused:

Mechanics are an abstraction. Translating them 1:1 makes the exercise fairly pointless, as you run into absurdities, as you are considering people slightly less fragile than house cats.

HP being physical toughness is the only thing that makes sense.

Especially with the fluff of most healing spells.

DR aside, you don't take less damage as your HP increases.

[Coidzor]

Well, to the point that my first choice of character was a Dragonfire Adept, so... not necessarily a tiny spark. More of a Trogdorito.

Well someone brought up using Prestidigitation in the context of it being lethal to wights, and that's what I was responding to initially.


I don't recall those details being relevant in 3.5e.

Could you point me to a source for that?

Westeros has stuff like tears from a magical tree-god, and bones of a thousand-year-old virgin dragon ("Xythromax the Unfortunate"), and whatever was left in the steaming ruins of Old Valyria. There's blood-sacrifice magic, there's demon-summoning rituals, there's fire-dances that make shadow-demon babies -- there's magic stuff, you just need to adapt your Item Creation prerequisites (which are already pretty vague).

They aren't. The only examples we have to go off of are what magic item descriptions say they're literally made out of (generally common materials, precious metals, gemstones) and the spell component descriptions for various spells, which are largely bad jokes or sympathetic magic.

[Tainted_Scholar]

See, this here is a problem. You will get some absurd stuff if you treat HP like that, instead of the mechanical representation of your wellbeing.

OOTS aside, the Barbarian with 150 HP doesn't shrug off a 1d8+2 longsword to the gut. He is barely scratched by it. Which is why it barely dents his HP. He doesn't shrug off having his throat slit from a coup d'grace just because he made his Fort save. If he survives, he hasn't had his throat slit at all. One should translate narrative into mechanics, not mechanics into narrative, or nonsense ensues.

Unless you want people running around like video-game protagonists with fifty arrows sticking to them :smallconfused:

Mechanics are an abstraction. Translating them 1:1 makes the exercise fairly pointless, as you run into absurdities, as you are considering people slightly less fragile than house cats.

Except, how does that work when my barbarian just survived a mile long fall? Physical toughness is the only thing that makes sense for HP. With 150 HP I can survive being submerged in Lava, I can survive being crushed under rubble, I can survive a stick of TNT going off right next to my face.

[Nifft]

Most people in Westeros probably only have around 4 HP. A shot from a Crossbow would leave them dying for example.

If you want to emulate the stuff in the books, you might consider a Vitality / Wound variant health system instead of standard HP, plus one of the various Armor as DR variant rules.

Armor as DR means that an armored soldier can take a vastly disproportionate number of hits, and is frankly terrifying for an unarmored & poorly armed peasant, but the soldier can still be brought down by a single well-placed blow ("critical hit"), and is just as vulnerable to a coup-de-grace as anyone else.

If you have a VP / WP system, one neat way to model the fight between Bronn and Ser Vardis Egen (in the Eyrie) would be to have some combat maneuvers cost Vitality, and you pay more Vitality if you're in heavier armor (perhaps using the Armor Check Penalty values). So, Bronn uses mobile tactics to deplete Ser Egen's VP -- and when the knight tires, Bronn moves in for the kill.

Tyrion shooting a helpless, unarmored Tywin might also count as a coup-de-grace, or at least an auto-crit. Heavy Crossbow is 1d10 (19/x2), so that's potentially 2d10 damage which goes straight to WP -- with a good damage roll, that's enough to kill a lot of people, and that's before considering whether it should count as a c-d-g.

[Tainted_Scholar]

If you want to emulate the stuff in the books, you might consider a Vitality / Wound variant health system instead of standard HP, plus one of the various Armor as DR variant rules.

Armor as DR means that an armored soldier can take a vastly disproportionate number of hits, and is frankly terrifying for an unarmored & poorly armed peasant, but the soldier can still be brought down by a single well-placed blow ("critical hit"), and is just as vulnerable to a coup-de-grace as anyone else.

If you have a VP / WP system, one neat way to model the fight between Bronn and Ser Vardis Egen (in the Eyrie) would be to have some combat maneuvers cost Vitality, and you pay more Vitality if you're in heavier armor (perhaps using the Armor Check Penalty values). So, Bronn uses mobile tactics to deplete Ser Egen's VP -- and when the knight tires, Bronn moves in for the kill.

Tyrion shooting a helpless, unarmored Tywin might also count as a coup-de-grace, or at least an auto-crit. Heavy Crossbow is 1d10 (19/x2), so that's potentially 2d10 damage which goes straight to WP -- with a good damage roll, that's enough to kill a lot of people, and that's before considering whether it should count as a c-d-g.

Please no, D&D's combat is complicated enough already.

[Nifft]

DR aside, you don't take less damage as your HP increases. Says who?

Seriously, cite that.

D&D has always treated HP as an abstraction, and has been quite frank about it.


Well someone brought up using Prestidigitation in the context of it being lethal to wights, and that's what I was responding to initially. That person is wrong.

However, I was responding to you, and you were trying to equate Westeros Wights with D&D SRD Wights. This is an invalid comparison.

You were both wrong about different things.


They aren't. The only examples we have to go off of are what magic item descriptions say they're literally made out of (generally common materials, precious metals, gemstones) and the spell component descriptions for various spells, which are largely bad jokes or sympathetic magic. Okay, so that point about missing materials is also incorrect and irrelevant -- for all D&D settings which allow Item Creation feats to exist and function, the stuff in each setting can be adapted to serve as the materials needed.


Except, how does that work when my barbarian just survived a mile long fall? Physical toughness is the only thing that makes sense for HP. With 150 HP I can survive being submerged in Lava, I can survive being crushed under rubble, I can survive a stick of TNT going off right next to my face. D&D is a terrible physics engine, and you won't have 150 HP in E6 so it's kinda moot.

There are ways to explain even those situations in using D&D HP logic -- perhaps your Barbarian is blessed by ancestor totem spirits, and their grace momentarily spares you from the lava / acid submersion (until it runs out). Perhaps you have attracted the eye of the Luck Goddess, and she gives you one chance to survive the TNT / rubble (by having the shrapnel / rocks fall in ways that don't crush anything vital).

Also, you're very tough due to experience -- instead of going into shock and dying, you push through. You're exactly as injured as someone else, but the injury would have killed them due to the psychological impact of the pain / trauma / etc.

But this kind of genre dissonance is a significant part of why I recommend a VP / WP system for playing in Westeros.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Says who?

Seriously, cite that.

D&D has always treated HP as an abstraction, and has been quite frank about it.

Basic math; 50 damage is 50 damage, regardless of what level you are.



D&D is a terrible physics engine, and you won't have 150 HP in E6 so it's kinda moot.

There are ways to explain even those situations in using D&D HP logic -- perhaps your Barbarian is blessed by ancestor totem spirits, and their grace momentarily spares you from the lava / acid submersion (until it runs out). Perhaps you have attracted the eye of the Luck Goddess, and she gives you one chance to survive the TNT / rubble (by having the shrapnel / rocks fall in ways that don't crush anything vital).

Gods don't work as an answer, you can kill them all and your HP won't change. I've never heard of any book describing ancestor totem spirits doing what you describe.


Also, you're very tough due to experience -- instead of going into shock and dying, you push through. You're exactly as injured as someone else, but the injury would have killed them due to the psychological impact of the pain / trauma / etc.

And if I fall from orbit? Or I'm submerged in lava?


But this kind of genre dissonance is a significant part of why I recommend a VP / WP system for playing in Westeros.

Or just model Westeros characters at low levels with only 3 HP?

Edit: Occam's Razor may also apply, as D&D characters just being tough has fewer unwarranted assumptions.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Says who?

Seriously, cite that.

D&D has always treated HP as an abstraction, and has been quite frank about it.

Actually, the DMG outright lists physical toughness as one of the explanations for what HP is, and quite frankly it's the only explanation that makes sense.


D&D is a terrible physics engine, and you won't have 150 HP in E6 so it's kinda moot..

The reason why it matters though is because it shows that HP is physical toughness.

Also why does D&D having terrible physics matter?



There are ways to explain even those situations in using D&D HP logic -- perhaps your Barbarian is blessed by ancestor totem spirits, and their grace momentarily spares you from the lava / acid submersion (until it runs out). Perhaps you have attracted the eye of the Luck Goddess, and she gives you one chance to survive the TNT / rubble (by having the shrapnel / rocks fall in ways that don't crush anything vital).

Also, you're very tough due to experience -- instead of going into shock and dying, you push through. You're exactly as injured as someone else, but the injury would have killed them due to the psychological impact of the pain / trauma / etc.

You have to jump through a lot of hoops to explain it as anything but physical toughness. Plus most of what you mentioned already exists in D&D in other forms. Totem spirits come in the form of the Totem Barbarian and don't do what you describe. Deities already show their favor in the form of Clerics (Also what if I'm an Ur-priest?). Pain and trauma appear in the form of status conditions.

Ultimately, HP as physical toughness makes the most sense and is also the simplest option.

[ShurikVch]

Really? Even 3rd level D&D magic is pretty potent.Examples, please
Also, after the 1st problem "potency of 3rd-level spells", closely goes second one "very very limited spells/day"

How would she do that?Shadow assassin (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Shadow_assassin)

Do you have any proof that these creatures are actually as dangerous as you claim?

D&D adventurers are capable of superhuman feats (not D&D feats) at level 1.I already proved common forest animals are a "Very Difficult" encounter - despite being outnumbered by adventurers 3-to-1
Unless you implying pony-sized (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Direwolf) wolf is somehow less dangerous than usual...

Since when?E6 FAQ (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D&p=3750526&viewfull=1#post3750526):
Q: What if I want there to be a higher level magical effect, but still use E6?
The rules for rituals in Unearthed Arcana are an excellent fit for E6, to support things like opening portals to another dimension, higher-level divinations, and so on. When a spell is a 3-day event requiring 20 mages, it’s more of a plot point than a spell itself, and that maeks it a great a springboard for challenging the players.
...
Q: Can you make high-level items as a low-level caster in E6?
A: No, caster level requirements for magic items are treated as hard requirements.Since Artificer gives cheap access to higher-than-intended magic, and able to craft items which are unavailable in E6 - this class is unsuitable to E6 (at least, without the extra restrictions)

Why be a vampire? Just be a Dragonwrought Kobold, they're better.What's the point? It's no-TO campaign.
What's you will get from living Dragonwrought Kobold (besides the Con score)?
Vampiric Dragon, on the other hand, gets Charm, Domination, and Create Spawn



Really, cause a lvl. 6 Barbarian could solo the KingsguardWill he also solo all knights?
I doubt it.
Game of numbers is not to the Adventurer's favour.
This is why I said "barely a splash": battle may be won by a single warrior; war - only by army

and a Wizard would probably amass a religion around herself.With Cha as a dump stat? Unlikely
Besides, most of people in Westeros aren't that religious
Also, sorcery is hardly an unheard matter

Sandbox games are a thing you know, plus they have a goal, they want to take over. It is completely possible for them to do so.Sandbox games relying on friendly DM; Weseros is controlled by Killer DM (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillerGameMaster)

You mean with her shadow monsters? An ability that she's used like 3 times in the entire series.Yes. So? Your point? :smallconfused:
I'm not even sure that would work anyway.I'm pretty sure - because don't see a single reason why it shouldn't

You seem to be underestimating the adventurers. A group of six Adventurers could easily win a fight against a dozen WildlingsYou overestimating Adventurers - dozen Wildlings (say, CR 1/2) versus 1st-level party of six is a "Very Difficult" encounter even in "arena mode"; considering home turf advantage - it's TPK

there weren't that many direwolvesReally? How many?
wights similarly aren't that much of a threatExcept when (if?) Adventurers would understand it's "kill it with fire" situation - it may be way too late
(Are casters even prepared any fire spells? How many?)
And while a Wight may be not so dangerous individually - how about the ten Wights? Fifteen?

Also D&D wolves are tougher than real ones.Where it's written? :smallconfused:



If you are able to find the first link which leads to the E6 rules, you'll get to a wiki page.

On that wiki page, if you scroll down, you'll see this:I'm distrusting to Dungeons and Dragons Wiki; it doesn't have neither an author's name, nor even the date; actual E6 rules (https://esix.pbworks.com/f/E6v041.pdf) are lacking that line

Hmm, yeah, that template is probably under-costed.Then how about the Ghost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm) template? LA +5 - and you're indestructible

However it's not all that great -- sunlight still destroys youTrue, but at least not so fast as "standard" Vampire
Also, most of old cities in Westeros are have awesome catacombs

you're bound to your "hoard" (whatever that means for a level 1 PC)"Hoard" can be movable - see the Brimstone (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Capnolithyl) for example

... with flat 10 ability scores across the board?Yes. Still worth it.

No immunity to weapon damage? No immunity to Fire or Cold damage?

1d8 HP, no bonus from Con, and no way to make people stop fearing you... that seems like a poor decision.

You gon die son.+20 on Hide and Move Silently ensuring you're slip from any uncomfortable situation
As a last defence, Discorporate - let them think they're killed you
Oh, and you're still a Sorcerer or Wizard



Ignoring the fact that they can dazzle the populace simply by being able to consistently produce obviously magical effects, Wizards have a wide array of incredibly useful spells. Alter Self, Charm Person, Command Undead, Detect Thoughts, Illusory Script, Invisibility, Explosive Runes, Fireball, Fly, Minor Image, Protection from Arrows, Rope Trick, Sepia Snake Sigil, Spider Climb, Suggestion, True Strike, and so on.Most of those spells are of short range, short duration, or both
Invisibility, Fireball, Fly, Minor Image, Protection from Arrows, and Rope Trick are (probably) the most useful out of the bunch, but still not exactly "conquering kingdom" material
Charm Person have decent duration, but unreliable and with short range

With a few well placed spells against the right people at the right moments, the Wizard can impersonate a king or queen.It's - in theory; in practice - "right moment" may come thirty years later

They can also use their evidence supported beliefs to affect global politics in ways that may convert even the most devout Sparrows.Establishing religion isn't an easy task; just look how "successful" are Red Priests - and they're not exactly new there

After all, the Cleric may be able to cure something as horrifying as Greyscale, which could get the party close to Daenerys Targaryen and her dragons.Unfortunately, it's unverifiable: for all we know, Greyscale may be immune to Remove Disease (or, at least, require double digit CL check)

Direct them to give you their gear before going on suicide missions, and they'll be replaced within 24 hours after they die.Unfortunately, the most priced possession is their houses - so, unless you're interested in real estate business, you wouldn't got that much
Random tangent: Thrallherds can augment Psionic Charm to affect dragons. :smallamused:Just like any other manifester
But it wouldn't turn Dragon into your Thrall - 6 hours, and it's it
Also, 40' range... Are you sure you want to get within 40' of fire-spewing monster?



Anyway, back to broken choices due to the silly E6 LA rules...

The Unbodied - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htmNice find! :smallsmile:
"No point buy" is bad, but Incorporeality worth it

[Knaight]

Really, cause a lvl. 6 Barbarian could solo the Kingsguard, and a Wizard would probably amass a religion around herself.

A sufficiently charismatic Wizard probably could (although at this point the Sorcerer seems like a better bet anyways). So now they're one small sect in a big world full of enemies. As for a level 6 Barbarian soloing the Kingsguard, I don't buy it. Seven level one warriors have an approximate CR of 4, and representing the Kingsguard as level one warriors is completely absurd.

There's also the small matter of system representation here. Using the HP as meat paradigm (partly because it's what the thread has mostly settled on, partly because it's just more coherent with the rules set) a level 6 Barbarian can expect to take multiple weapon strikes to bring down, but it's really not that many. Assume Con 16, average health rolls, and the barbarian has 58 HP. An average sword strike from a strength 14 opponent deals 6 damage, ignoring critical hits. That leaves a group of seven needing to get ten hits off on a single enemy before the single enemy takes them all out.

It's especially not that many strikes when considering the barbarian's sad and pathetic defenses. They're no better than an untrained combatant wearing the same armor who is about the same quickness (if HP isn't interpreted as meat this changes). Then there's the matter of how sluggish they are, capable of pulling off only two attacks that might hit every six seconds. Meanwhile, the kingsguard is much harder to strike than an untrained combatant in the same armor, Kingsguard members have been explicitly described as managing to dispatch multiple opponents in less time than that, and the Barbarian doesn't even have that impressive of an attack bonus (+10 given 18 strength, which gives a marginally better than 50% chance to hit someone in full plate with no added blocking ability). The abilities of D&D characters if the mechanics are taken literally are just weird.


The D&D characters will run on the rules of D&D, while the ASoIaF characters will run on the rules of their setting. Interactions between the two shouldn't be that hard to do.
To a large extent interactions between the two involving either aiming an attack at a bunch of meaningless jargon or aiming a bunch of meaningless jargon at a defense. Can a Westerosi knight parry a +10 attack? It's pretty hard to tell, given that a +10 attack is meaningless jargon in a literary model and the knight doesn't exactly have AC. If that knight strikes back, does the AC of the D&D target protect against it? Who knows, because while an attack makes sense in D&D it's not actually quantified, and as such involves comparing a number to something that isn't a number. The systems really don't mesh, and the characters translate to D&D exceptionally poorly, because D&D is a terrible model for characters from books (or real life, or film, or basically anything else).

[ColorBlindNinja]

Examples, please
Also, after the 1st problem "potency of 3rd-level spells", closely goes second one "very very limited spells/day"

Extend Rope Trick means that limited spells per day aren't that important.

Greenbound Summoning is really powerful for Druids (as is Entangle).

Web and Glitterdust are extremely powerful.



Shadow assassin (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Shadow_assassin)

How exactly is a Shadow Assassin supposed to kill 6 heavily armed murder hobos?



I already proved common forest animals are a "Very Difficult" encounter - despite being outnumbered by adventurers 3-to-1
Unless you implying pony-sized (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Direwolf) wolf is somehow less dangerous than usual...

D&D animals != real animals. Animals in D&D are a lot tougher.


E6 FAQ (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D&p=3750526&viewfull=1#post3750526):Since Artificer gives cheap access to higher-than-intended magic, and able to craft items which are unavailable in E6 - this class is unsuitable to E6 (at least, without the extra restrictions)

No, Artificers have special rules crafting, plus the OP allowed them in this thread.


What's the point? It's no-TO campaign.
What's you will get from living Dragonwrought Kobold (besides the Con score)?
Vampiric Dragon, on the other hand, gets Charm, Domination, and Create Spawn

I'd like to be able to go outside during the day without going up flames.



Will he also solo all knights?
I doubt it.

6 level 6 adventurers VS the king's guard? I'd bet on the adventurers winning.


Game of numbers is not to the Adventurer's favour.

And? 90% of those numbers are basically cannon fodder.


This is why I said "barely a splash": battle may be won by a single warrior; war - only by army

Diplomacy and Bluff say otherwise.


With Cha as a dump stat? Unlikely

CHA isn't needed, you have magic.


Besides, most of people in Westeros aren't that religious

[Citation Needed]


Also, sorcery is hardly an unheard matter

Even low level 3.5 spellcasters have superior magic compared to most Westeros mages.


Sandbox games relying on friendly DM; Weseros is controlled by Killer DM (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillerGameMaster)

90% of the creatures in Westeros aren't that dangerous to D&D adventurers.


Yes. So? Your point? :smallconfused:
I'm pretty sure - because don't see a single reason why it shouldn't

How are Shadow Assassins going to kill them?



You overestimating Adventurers - dozen Wildlings (say, CR 1/2) versus 1st-level party of six is a "Very Difficult" encounter even in "arena mode"; considering home turf advantage - it's TPK

We're using CR as an argument now? Really?



Really? How many?

Few enough, if I recall correctly, that they were assumed to be going extinct.


I'm pretty sure - because don't see a single reason why it shouldn'tExcept when (if?) Adventurers would understand it's "kill it with fire" situation - it may be way too late

These are adventurers we're talking about, of course they're going to try setting them on fire.


(Are casters even prepared any fire spells? How many?)

Dragonfire Adepts can breathe fire at will. Produce Flame and Lesser Orb of Fire are pretty good, too.


And while a Wight may be not so dangerous individually - how about the ten Wights? Fifteen?

Are they really going to run into that many? How do Wights compare to raging Barbarians or Warblades?


Where it's written? :smallconfused:

Dire Wolves in D&D have 45 HP; that's a lot. It would take a normal person about 7 swings with a Great Sword to kill one.

[Tainted_Scholar]

As for a level 6 Barbarian soloing the Kingsguard, I don't buy it. Seven level one warriors have an approximate CR of 4, and representing the Kingsguard as level one warriors is completely absurd.

There's also the small matter of system representation here. Using the HP as meat paradigm (partly because it's what the thread has mostly settled on, partly because it's just more coherent with the rules set) a level 6 Barbarian can expect to take multiple weapon strikes to bring down, but it's really not that many. Assume Con 16, average health rolls, and the barbarian has 58 HP. An average sword strike from a strength 14 opponent deals 6 damage, ignoring critical hits. That leaves a group of seven needing to get ten hits off on a single enemy before the single enemy takes them all out.

It's especially not that many strikes when considering the barbarian's sad and pathetic defenses. They're no better than an untrained combatant wearing the same armor who is about the same quickness (if HP isn't interpreted as meat this changes). Then there's the matter of how sluggish they are, capable of pulling off only two attacks that might hit every six seconds. Meanwhile, the kingsguard is much harder to strike than an untrained combatant in the same armor, Kingsguard members have been explicitly described as managing to dispatch multiple opponents in less time than that, and the Barbarian doesn't even have that impressive of an attack bonus (+10 given 18 strength, which gives a marginally better than 50% chance to hit someone in full plate with no added blocking ability). The abilities of D&D characters if the mechanics are taken literally are just weird.

Ten strikes you say? The Barbarian would be able to kill each member of the Kingsguard with one hit. At level six the Barbarian will be doing more damage with his sword strikes than a heavy catapult, and getting past their AC won't be too hard. Additionally, they have to actually hit the Barbarian in order to kill him. Also his HP will be higher while raging.

[Coidzor]

However, I was responding to you, and you were trying to equate Westeros Wights with D&D SRD Wights. This is an invalid comparison.

You were both wrong about different things.

1. What on earth are you trying to prove.

2. That point of miscommunication had already been cleared up between myself and the person who I had thought was conflating White Walkers and D&D Wights.

3. what


Okay, so that point about missing materials is also incorrect and irrelevant

I was mentioning it as a far-fetched hypothetical to highlight how unreasonable hackulator was being. :smallsigh:

[Gildedragon]

Yeah, but to the point that a tiny spark is dangerous, let alone lethal?

I brought up the Prestidigitation v Wights.
A Lantern is fatal to Wights.
The fire-finger use of prestidigitation is a half-foot-long jet of flame that sets flammable things alight.
Pretty sure it will wreck a wight

[ColorBlindNinja]

Do I have to say that the "limited number of attacks per round" thing is an abstraction again?

[Nifft]

1. What on earth are you trying to prove. That D&D SRD Wights are irrelevant to the discussion of Westeros Wights.


2. That point of miscommunication had already been cleared up between myself and the person who I had thought was conflating White Walkers and D&D Wights.
You did link to SRD Wights, claiming they were deadly to L1 characters. (Which is true. Just not relevant. That is my point.)

It looks like you're still seeking clarification about this, so I'm still responding.


I brought up the Prestidigitation v Wights.
A Lantern is fatal to Wights.
The fire-finger use of prestidigitation is a half-foot-long jet of flame that sets flammable things alight.
Pretty sure it will wreck a wight

I feel like a torch or a lantern, which both can deal Fire damage, are qualitatively different from a spark which can ignite a torch or lantern.

I would agree that a torch can wreck a wight, but I'm not so sure about flint & steel, or prestidigitation.

[Coidzor]

I brought up the Prestidigitation v Wights.
A Lantern is fatal to Wights.
The fire-finger use of prestidigitation is a half-foot-long jet of flame that sets flammable things alight.
Pretty sure it will wreck a wight

That is pretty neat. Even if you can't actually target a wight with it or their clothing directly, it would likely be something that could allow one to exploit the environment.


Firefinger (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010707): You cause a jet of flame up to 1/2 foot long to shoot forth from your finger. The flame is hot and ignites combustible materials. Lighting a torch with this effect is a standard action (rather than a full-round action), but lighting any other fire with it takes at least a standard action (DM's discretion).

As an aside, that same article basically makes Prestidigitation into a form of sewing machine, which I now find hilarious, especially in combination with the whole idea of Prestidigitation-based laundry services.


That D&D SRD Wights are irrelevant to the discussion of Westeros Wights.

That was already (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22174380&postcount=60) established (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22174402&postcount=62) before you even jumped in.

I had completely dropped it and I ignored the part of your posts on the subject until you left me no choice but to respond.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Since somebody pointed out that it's nigh impossible to tell what things like AC and to hit rolls represent, why don't we try to find some more solid examples of what the numbers mean. For example, in the DMG is states that you can dodge automatic gunfire with a DC 15 reflex save. This means that D&D characters have supersonic reaction times.

[Mechalich]

This sort of scenario is an amusing thought exercise, but it depends on a lot of assumptions.

First, there's some limitations. The characters start at level 1, meaning they have no magic items and no way to get any unless they make them personally (and item creation feats are going to be fairly limited until you actually hit level 6). There's also the problem that for spellbook using classes, it's presumably impossible to get new spells, which is a huge knock to wizards and a big limit on item creation (no potions until level 3, no wands at all until level 5, etc.). So let's just avoid that problem and go with all divine casters - which fit well enough into Westeros anyway that they won't immediately be targeted by everyone (if you were allowing Pathfinder material a Witch would be a great choice, but I guess ignore that for now). To maximize power under this framework you want Tier I divine casters, two clerics and two druids seems reasonable. Race-wise, you probably want Lesser Aasimar, for the wisdom bonus and cold resistance, plus the ability to appear more or less human - which is important in a setting where playing say, a half-orc means everyone is going to try to kill you (Lesser Tiefling for a witch, if you have one). I'm going to leave out super-cheese options.

Now, we're starting 300 km north of the wall. That's roughly at the Fist of the First Men, heck let's go ahead and have them start there, it's a good spot we can put on the map. Ned Stark is beheaded in 298 AC, so the Battle of the Fist of the First Men has not yet occurred and the area is not overrun by wights. So our characters simply have to survive a trek through 300 miles of hostile and very cold wilderness (significant issue: the ecology of Westeros doesn't work. The area north of the Wall is shown as too cold even during summer to possess plant life of any kind despite being primarily forested), dealing with dangerous animals, hostile wildlings, and potentially wights and White Walkers. A general presumption: this journey will be sufficiently taxing such that character survival will mean hitting level 6 by the time they reach the wall. That's probably the highest point of variance - early game is very swingy no matter what you do, though two druids with charm animal in the arsenal will get you through a lot of wilderness encounters.

Assuming the party survives to the reach the Wall - they're a bunch of powerhouses and are fully capable of either talking their way past the Night's Watch or simply going around the Wall west of the Shadow Tower and marching south - but they're far from invincible. Assuming conquest is the goal they are entering Westeros proper just as the War of Five Kings is gearing up. If you have a Witch in the party, and therefore Charm Person you're in business easily. Otherwise it's a bit harder. You need to find a way to falsify yourself some noble or knightly credentials for the party cleric or witch, acquire a small group of followers from among the vagrant population and join up with Rob Stark. Now we have a gender-dependent trick. You need a female member of the party to marry Rob Stark to gain a huge power boost and a royal claim. Your party's battlefield, diplomacy, and healing capabilities mean that the Young Wolf continues to win every battle, and that you can simply prevent the Red Wedding from happening by making Walder Frey tell Tywin Lannister to pound sand. A druid party member can fly over to the Iron Islands and easily assassinate Balon, Victarion, Asha and any other annoying Greyjoy in your way setting off an internal civil war there with the eventual outcome of putting charm-influenced Theon in charge in a few years. You can also assassinate/charm/otherwise replace Lysa and acquire the Vale's support (and while you're at it kill Littlefinger).

At this point, the Lannisters are well and duly crushed. Rob can just sack King's Landing straight up (druids+wildshape = open gates). Speak with Dead can be used to confirm Stannis as Robert's rightful heir (there are several dead people who can confirm this). Rob and Stannis can be convinced to make peace with the other houses, except Dorne, smashed. Assassinate Shireen and Stannis has no heirs. Marry your character and Rob Stark's kid to Dorne and you've sewn up all the claims (this can be a promised betrothal from infancy to compress the timeline).

That leaves the Mother of Dragons across the sea. There are various choices here. Your party, and important NPCs Rob and Stannis, are aware of the White Walkers and busy unifying Westeros to fight them after a bloody war. The simplest option is the one we've been using for a while - wildshape assassination - but that precludes getting dragons. Alternatively, you can have a male party member marry Daenerys and proclaim her as the heir. She can't have kids anyway, so the other line will inherit the throne later on after Daenerys, Stannis, and her dragons all die in glorious battle with the Night King (whether in actual fact or according to some judicious propaganda). Your party has spent the years of preparation producing large numbers of wands of suitably anti-undead (and anti whatever the White Walkers ultimately are) spells so you win that particular battle.

So the party witch (or female cleric) gets to rule Westeros as Daenerys widower or Rob Stark's widow (or potentially both, depending on who dies first and how you set up the succession), and also one party member gets hailed as the Prince that was Promised by the Red Priests - which is very useful for the hypothetical conquest of Essos via a massive religious revolution.

[ColorBlindNinja]

SNIP

Interesting analysis.

However, spellcasters with Spell/Prayer Books get two new spells automatically when they level up, though.

[ShurikVch]

Extend Rope Trick means that limited spells per day aren't that important.In the middle of combat? Good luck!

How exactly is a Shadow Assassin supposed to kill 6 heavily armed murder hobos?Slice their throats

D&D animals != real animals. Animals in D&D are a lot tougher.Proof, please :smalltongue:

I'd like to be able to go outside during the day without going up flames.Vampiric Dragon can do it: between the age categories and Endure Sunlight feat he have full 2 minutes to get back to darkness (presuming Cha-heavy build); for longer exposure - Liquid Night gives full hour of protection for mere 150 gp

6 level 6 adventurers VS the king's guard? I'd bet on the adventurers winning.Tainted_Scholar said "Barbarian soloing"; bringing in the whole party is escalation; OK, how about the party vs the whole Red Keep?

And? 90% of those numbers are basically cannon fodder.I see you're not that good with numbers; what's they will do when casters run out of magic, and warriors - out of hit points?

Diplomacy and Bluff say otherwise.No-TO game; how much you expecting to get from Diplomacy? (And Glibness is a 3rd-level Bard spell - not for E6)

CHA isn't needed, you have magic.With bad Cha - magic will get you burned on a stake

Even low level 3.5 spellcasters have superior magic compared to most Westeros mages.1. "Superior" there sound like a personal preference
2. We're still aren't seen top abilities of ASoIaF mages - magic was absent for too long; can you say what, exactly, can, and what can't do Shadowbinders of Asshai, or Warlocks of Qarth?

90% of the creatures in Westeros aren't that dangerous to D&D adventurers."To the North from the Wall" isn't, exactly, "90% of Westeros"

We're using CR as an argument now? Really?1. EL
2. What's up? You got something better?

Few enough, if I recall correctly, that they were assumed to be going extinct.It's - "To the South from the Wall"

These are adventurers we're talking about, of course they're going to try setting them on fire.O RLY?
AFAIK, most of the time with Undead it's either gross physical damage, or attempts to Turn/Rebuke it
Because how high is the chance one (two? three?) of 3 available 1st-level spells will be [fire] spell?

Dragonfire Adepts can breathe fire at will. Produce Flame and Lesser Orb of Fire are pretty good, too.Nothing bad about the DFA, but how high is chance of presence in the party?
Orb of Fire is OK, but only a single target...
Good point about the Produce Flame - especially because there are some ways to get it at-will

Are they really going to run into that many?Why not?
Also, you call it "many"? :smallamused:

How do Wights compare to raging Barbarians or Warblades?Very good - no vital organs, no pain, no fear, inhuman strength
Barbarians or Warblades will need to dismember Wights, while Wights need only to inflict usual wounds

Dire Wolves in D&D have 45 HP; that's a lot. It would take a normal person about 7 swings with a Great Sword to kill one.Who said anything about Dire Wolf?
In my example, I used common Wolf (Canis lupus)
But Westeros, on the other hand, have some amount of Direwolves...

[Mechalich]

Interesting analysis.

However, spellcasters with Spell/Prayer Books get two new spells automatically when they level up, though.

Ah, must have forgotten about that. Well, then it's two druid, one cleric, and one wizard/witch (I still prefer Witch for this, since the wizard would remain fairly limited and the witch seems more flavor appropriate anyway).

Ultimately, the key point is that, once operating in ASOIAF society, a party of four level 6 casters with access to large quantities of spells like alter self, bestow curse, charm person, remove disease and wildshape can rip a society that lacks anything but dubious soft counters (in the form of its own rather unpredictable magic) to them apart in short order.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Slice their throats


That won't kill them. Besides, you're still assuming she'll actually do that even though she rarely creates the shadows.



Proof, please :smalltongue:

You mean like the fact that a wolf can survive being shot with a hunting rifle in D&D?



Tainted_Scholar said "Barbarian soloing"; bringing in the whole party is escalation; OK, how about the party vs the whole Red Keep?


I don't see why not, the Barbarian can dodge bullets and hits with the force of a heavy catapult.



1. "Superior" there sound like a personal preference
2. We're still aren't seen top abilities of ASoIaF mages - magic was absent for too long; can you say what, exactly, can, and what can't do Shadowbinders of Asshai, or Warlocks of Qarth?

Fly, create food and water out of fine air, heal wounds instantly, blast people with magic, summon monsters.



Why not?
Also, you call it "many"? :smallamused:


Because the Wights aren't as common as you are claiming, not this early in the series at least.



Very good - no vital organs, no pain, no fear, inhuman strength
Barbarians or Warblades will need to dismember Wights, while Wights need only to inflict usual wounds

Dismemberment will be easy, a normal attack from the barbarian will probably slice it in half.



But Westeros, on the other hand, have some amount of Direwolves...

Can you mention any Dire wolves besides the Stark's? Because I don't remember seeing any others.

[ColorBlindNinja]

In the middle of combat? Good luck!

Why on earth would you cast it in combat?


Slice their throats

I doubt that would work; not only could they survive, but how would they be able to get the drop on them?


Proof, please :smalltongue:

A D&D elephant can survive being shot by a tank.


Vampiric Dragon can do it: between the age categories and Endure Sunlight feat he have full 2 minutes to get back to darkness (presuming Cha-heavy build); for longer exposure - Liquid Night gives full hour of protection for mere 150 gp

That could work.


Tainted_Scholar said "Barbarian soloing"; bringing in the whole party is escalation; OK, how about the party vs the whole Red Keep?

I suspect the Barbarian could solo the king's guard; party make up would make a difference, but barring some bad luck, I think the PCs can take the Red Keep.


I see you're not that good with numbers; what's they will do when casters run out of magic, and warriors - out of hit points?

They cast Rope Trick.

Reserve feats are nice too.


No-TO game; how much you expecting to get from Diplomacy? (And Glibness is a 3rd-level Bard spell - not for E6)

Tell that to the Archivist/Erudite StP. A well built Bard can get a pretty good Diplomacy check.


With bad Cha - magic will get you burned on a stake

Good luck with that.


1. "Superior" there sound like a personal preference

Do they have anything that compares to healing magic? Web? Glitterdust?


2. We're still aren't seen top abilities of ASoIaF mages - magic was absent for too long; can you say what, exactly, can, and what can't do Shadowbinders of Asshai, or Warlocks of Qarth?

Then we go by what we've seen.


"To the North from the Wall" isn't, exactly, "90% of Westeros"

And? Most of the creatures up there aren't going to TPK the party.


1. EL
2. What's up? You got something better?

CR is notorious for being inaccurate.


It's - "To the South from the Wall"

So how tough are Dire Wolves?


O RLY?

Adventurers are infamous for pyromania.


AFAIK, most of the time with Undead it's either gross physical damage, or attempts to Turn/Rebuke it
Because how high is the chance one (two? three?) of 3 available 1st-level spells will be [fire] spell?

Sun Domain Cleric would probably do the trick; you'd better hope they party doesn't rebuke the Wights, or Westeros is in trouble.


Nothing bad about the DFA, but how high is chance of presence in the party?

No idea. I'd like to play as one, though.


Orb of Fire is OK, but only a single target...

That's still a dead Wight.


Good point about the Produce Flame - especially because there are some ways to get it at-will

OK.


Why not?
Also, you call it "many"? :smallamused:

I don't recall them traveling in large groups at this point in the series.


Very good - no vital organs, no pain, no fear, inhuman strength

OK, how stabs does it take to put them down?


Barbarians or Warblades will need to dismember Wights, while Wights need only to inflict usual wounds

D&D Zombies are similar, slashing weapons should do the trick.


Who said anything about Dire Wolf?
In my example, I used common Wolf (Canis lupus)

A normal D&D wolf still takes two swings of a great sword. Or two shots from a pistol.


But Westeros, on the other hand, have some amount of Direwolves...

Do we ever see anymore besides the Stark's wolves they adopted?

[Coidzor]

While it is conceivable that somehow that Dire Wolf Mama's cubs are the last Dire Wolves in the setting, they are known to be north of the wall and really super rare south of the wall. Anyone who recalls any discussion of Dire Wolves north of the wall and their sightings, that would be quite interesting.

My recollection is that they're supposed to not be super common and may actually be rare even above the wall, and if they were really common, then that one skinshifter, Varamyr Sixskins (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Varamyr), would probably have had a Dire Wolf himself, especially given his interest in trying to acquire Ghost for himself when he met Jon Snow.

I think we can probably all at least agree that any kind of large grouping of Dire Wolves would not be a plausible random encounter.

[Mendicant]

HP being physical toughness is the only thing that makes sense.

Especially with the fluff of most healing spells.

It doesn't actually make any more sense than any other way of mind caulking the abstraction. HP as meat works fine for objects, but anything that can be killed with a coup de grace or massive damage has something else going on. Sneak attack is at least as basic as cure x wounds spells, and it makes zero sense if hp is only meat. You can't just cherrypick which weird rules implications count.

This is especially true in an E6 world where nobody is piling up the hp to survive being dropped from orbit anyway.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Except, how does that work when my barbarian just survived a mile long fall? Physical toughness is the only thing that makes sense for HP. With 150 HP I can survive being submerged in Lava, I can survive being crushed under rubble, I can survive a stick of TNT going off right next to my face.

Have you watched any of the newer Fast&Furious movies? Precisely like that.

I'm not saying damage should be reduced. I'm saying that, narratively, someone with 11 HP taking 10 damage has wildly different results to someone with 100 HP.

And, as quoted, the entire premise of E6 is avoid such situations where one falls from orbit.


Do I have to say that the "limited number of attacks per round" thing is an abstraction again?

Funny thing, so is HP.

At this point, the premise needs clarification: Are they rocking The Gamer's powers? Do they get to treat their bodies as sacks of HP, with unbleeding wounds and unbreakable bones?

Or should we try to take the premise a bit more seriously and translate lore to mechanics, instead of the other way around?

[Mechalich]

The specifics of HP or martial prowess are largely irrelevant to the overall question. The difference between the party being able to solo 20 men versus 200 men doesn't really matter that much when the principal powers can bring 2000 or possibly even 20000 at need. Raw battlefield power isn't going to conquer the world in E6. Far more important are other capabilities, particularly the ability to consistently perform feats that are otherwise impossible or at least nearly so (Red priests and priestesses and Bran have some serious mojo when they can get it to work, but the emphasis is on when, and most of the other casters are even less impressive) and the utilization of those for power projection.

For instance, if an 6th-level druid can reliably solo any human or any 3-4 humans in Westeros - which they absolutely can, there's more than enough buffs for that - then using wildshape they can get into almost any space undetected and murder any target they choose without being caught. Considering how effectively Stannis changed the course of the War of Five Kings with one such murder (Renly had military superiority), imagine what an effectively limitless ability to assassinate your enemies could achieve. You can do something fairly similar with Alter Self - the entire reputation of the Faceless Men is based on basically a version of that spell - and that's just one spell a wizard/witch gets to play with. The charm school is just dirty. Charm Person and Suggestion means you win all negotiations forever. Heck, if you allow a Witch, then a 6th level witch with Feast of Ashes (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedPlayersGuide/spells/feastOfAshes.html#feast-of-ashes) and Extend Spell can just zap people with 'you will die in an excruciating way in 24 days or less' and there is nothing to stop it.

For a non-spellcasting civilization like Westeros the arrival of 3.X D&D spellcasters - even limited by E6 - is an outside context problem. They is played with intelligence and ruthlessness they are largely unstoppable. The fact that the War of Five Kings allows them to easily co-opt a large faction and divide opponents against each other is just a bonus that makes things much easier.

[JBPuffin]

This fell apart hilariously quickly - and unfortunately, it was probably guaranteed once we started to try to statistically compare DnD stats between statted characters and wholly-narrative characters (and equating DnD monsters to narrative equivalents in terms of danger to PCs because...attempting to create benchmarks for comparison, right?). With that said, I still don't think the ASoFaI characters can deal with the narrative equivalents from a DnD world. Ignoring the statistical basis, my Level 1 Psion has tapped into his mind's abilities to affect the world around him, my Monk can kill armored foes with his bare hands, my Incarnate makes swords with people's souls...and my fighter has at least as much experience/natural talent as any ASoFaI warrior they're facing. Facing unfamiliar abilities with an inability to break the group apart socially and only a few truly magically dangerous opponents to offer leaves Westeros sorely unprepared for these guys, especially since everything after 6 is just icing on the cake.

And even better, we don't even have to fight all the powerful beings! We can just befriend them and work with them to conquer the world - it's just as much a win to have Daenerys kill everything with dragons and clean up the mess later as it is to sextuple-handedly smash everything ourselves.

[TotallyNotEvil]

On the other hand, the settings is huge. Far beyond the "major town" with a few thousand people we often see in D&D, this here is a setting of hundreds of millions.

It's easy to say "Charm the King" or "Impersonate a noble", but doing such requires knowledge they most certainly wouldn't have, inhuman timing, ridiculous luck. Many such easy answers fall short when thinking through their implementation. Will you be able to kill the guards in the gatehouse without anyone raising the alarm? Will you be able to fend the dozens/hundreds of soldiers rushing in to close the fate again? Will you even be know how to operate the mechanism? Will you be able to do so on your own? Will you be able to do it fast enough?

It's a whole lot more complicated if you consider the other side has real, thinking people. And that the world wasn't made for the convinience of random adventuring parties.

Not to mention Magic isn't extinct, just rare, and it once had been tremendously more common.

So who knows if someone sitting in the Iron Throne can be mind-whammied, or if you can teleport or otherwise phase through The Wall and he First Men buildings, or a number or such things.

Because shapeshifting and mind whammy has been shown to exist, and yet their possessors aren't all-powerful.

Starting with a party of four casters sounds like a mighty fine idea, until you realize that's like half a dozen level 1 spells per day. In one of the most inhospitable places in the setting, surrounded by magical monsters, wildlings, super undead and the Others.

Resource management is a real problem in this scale and level. There is an entire, complex society with a ridiculously meticulosos and long history in place. Politics are an utter nightmare to people whom were born and raised to deal with it, much less outsiders.

[JBPuffin]

On the other hand, the settings is huge. Far beyond the "major town" with a few thousand people we often see in D&D, this here is a setting of hundreds of millions.

It's easy to say "Charm the King" or "Impersonate a noble", but doing such requires knowledge they most certainly wouldn't have, inhuman timing, ridiculous luck. Mano such easy answers fall short when thinking through their implementation.

Not to mention Magic isn't extinct, just rare, and it once had been tremendously more common.

So who knows if someone sitting in the Iron Throne can be mind-whammied, or if you can teleport or otherwise phase through The Wall and he First Men buildings, or a number or such things.

Because shapeshifting and mind whammy has been shown to exist, and yet their possessors aren't all-powerful.

Starting with a party of four casters sounds like a mighty fine idea, until you realize that's like half a dozen level 1 spells per day. In one of the most inhospitable places in the setting, surrounded by magical monsters, wildlings, super undead and the Others.

Resource mamagement is a real problem in this scale and level. There is an entire, complex society with a ridiculously meticulosos and long history in place. Politics are an utter nightmare to people whom were born and raised to deal with it, much less outsiders.

The sheer scale of a world does complicate things...although once again, I'm not thinking of the DnD people as statistic constructs, which in my mind also means ignoring "spell slots" in favor of "narrative excuses appear to make spellcasting harder after you cast long enough". A lot of the other concerns are subjective choices by the arbiter, to the point where it's less of a question of "is it possible by RAW" and more "does the fanfic writer" (because that's what this is) "want it to be possible?" To which I say, "$#(& yeah I want that to be possible" and begin doing Pelor's work writing that thing, but that's not everyone's cup of ale.

Edit: For further perspective, I've got a Google Doc with about 3 pages of a story (barely a proper intro) about a game-system-undefined character wondering joining a post-FFTA2 clan and doing some seriously BA things, so I'm hopelessly biased against trying to solve this with numbers :smallwink:.

[Coidzor]

Or should we try to take the premise a bit more seriously and translate lore to mechanics, instead of the other way around?

I view the exercise either way as ultimately a distraction.

[Mechalich]

On the other hand, the settings is huge. Far beyond the "major town" with a few thousand people we often see in D&D, this here is a setting of hundreds of millions.

The population of Westeros is probably roughly equivalent to Europe circa 1400-1500 CE. That means there's less than 100 million people on the whole continent. So your estimate is off (there are probably a lot more people living in Essos, but this is not important).


It's easy to say "Charm the King" or "Impersonate a noble", but doing such requires knowledge they most certainly wouldn't have, inhuman timing, ridiculous luck. Many such easy answers fall short when thinking through their implementation. Will you be able to kill the guards in the gatehouse without anyone raising the alarm? Will you be able to fend the dozens/hundreds of soldiers rushing in to close the fate again? Will you even be know how to operate the mechanism? Will you be able to do so on your own? Will you be able to do it fast enough?

You are vastly overstating the difficulty of these things. Acquiring knowledge of the setting does indeed take time, but the characters have a long ride/walk from Castle Black down to the Riverlands in order to learn a great deal about the setting, the power players, and so on. Not to mention their ability to use magic to acquire that knowledge or simply charm/hire a master to work with them. Also, it's not a question of what the players can do by themselves it's what their unique abilities allow them to leverage in terms of a supporting force. A party of spellcasters is a massive force multiplier when your enemies don't have them.




Not to mention Magic isn't extinct, just rare, and it once had been tremendously more common.

So who knows if someone sitting in the Iron Throne can be mind-whammied, or if you can teleport or otherwise phase through The Wall and he First Men buildings, or a number or such things.

Because shapeshifting and mind whammy has been shown to exist, and yet their possessors aren't all-powerful.

No one can teleport, this is E6. And for almost every magical power displayed in ASOIAF the D&D spell equivalent is available in E6 and is massively more powerful and can be used multiple times. For example - Melisandre summoning a shadow to kill Renly - you could easily do that with Summon Monster III - a Hell Hound is surely powerful enough, only instead of only being able to cast it once total, you can cast it multiple times per day.


Starting with a party of four casters sounds like a mighty fine idea, until you realize that's like half a dozen level 1 spells per day. In one of the most inhospitable places in the setting, surrounded by magical monsters, wildlings, super undead and the Others.

Lesser Aasimar and Tieflings have cold resistance. Hospitability is rendered irrelevant by that fact. Clerics are only marginally weaker level 1 combatants than fighters - and due to a druid's animal companion they are actually more powerful. Clerics can both heal and turn undead - something no one else in the setting can do, yet the Night's Watch regularly survives ranging.


Resource management is a real problem in this scale and level. There is an entire, complex society with a ridiculously meticulosos and long history in place. Politics are an utter nightmare to people whom were born and raised to deal with it, much less outsiders.

Being level 6 - and therefore a righteous bad*** with unmatched magical powers, gets you into the room with the powerful. Once there, your magic cuts through all problems by pushing the 'I win' button it represents. 6th level characters simply are not playing the same game as ASOIAF natives.

[Mendicant]

You are vastly overstating the difficulty of these things. Acquiring knowledge of the setting does indeed take time, but the characters have a long ride/walk from Castle Black down to the Riverlands in order to learn a great deal about the setting, the power players, and so on. Not to mention their ability to use magic to acquire that knowledge or simply charm/hire a master to work with them. Also, it's not a question of what the players can do by themselves it's what their unique abilities allow them to leverage in terms of a supporting force. A party of spellcasters is a massive force multiplier when your enemies don't have them.

Mm, maybe. There is a *lot* to learn, and it's swimming in a sea of more non-essential information than even GRRM could hold in his head. It's pretty hard not to metagame this thought exercise, but knowing who to ask, where they are, and how to get to them is not a trivial task, especially if you're trying to stay alive. At a certain point, yes, the adventurers will become unstoppable, but I think you're underestimating how dangerous and confusing the first few levels are going to be.


For example - Melisandre summoning a shadow to kill Renly - you could easily do that with Summon Monster III - a Hell Hound is surely powerful enough, only instead of only being able to cast it once total, you can cast it multiple times per day.

That shadow had a lot more duration and thus range than a Summon Monster spell does.

[Dagroth]

I think you're all looking at this the wrong way.

Is this a party of random characters? By the description given in the OP, no. They trust each other and won't turn against each other.

How big is this party? Do we assume the standard D&D 4-person party or my typical table 6-person party?

Are these, again, a random selection of characters... or a theoretical family who arrange to get trained so they'll work extra-well together?

Let's go with a group of 2 brothers, a sister and their cousins, 2 brothers and a sister. One trio is 2 Fey-Touched & 1 Half-Fey. If you can get one of the other trio to be a Mineral Warrior, you're ready to utterly stomp things.

1 WarMage, 1 Beguiler (Both get Scribe Scroll because...), 1 Wizard. You can probably do without the Beguiler, but the social value is super-high. You might drop the Wizard, but he fills in all your "utility" spells and can get all the WarMage & Beguiler spells from his family.

1 Cleric, 1 Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order when you can (because, why not?) and if you got your Mineral Warrior then he goes Warblade, Crusader or, if you prefer, Barbarian.


Between the Half-Fey WarMage & the Fey-Kissed Beguiler, you're not running out of spells per day very soon and any party that appears in a cold environment is going to focus on fire spells at first until they're proven to be ineffective.

If we assume that whatever deity (GM) who drops the characters in the middle of the frozen tundra isn't unnecessarily cruel, we're going to have cold-weather gear.

Blood Snow & Control Ice & Snow are going to be important spells for your Cleric when you get higher levels, while Crunchy Snow is great early warning from the Ranger & Snow Walk is 1 hour for the entire party at CL 6. Two castings of Leomund's Tiny Igloo shelters the party for 6 hours at level 3.


So, yeah... a party can easily be built to absolutely own pretty-much anything they're encounter while travelling south to the Wall (your Mineral Warrior is near-immune to anything that doesn't crit him)... and once they hit 6th level, Glibness is on the table for your Fey-Kissed Beguiler. Your Half-Fey WarMage scoffs at insubstantial "Shadow Assassins"... especially if he's got the Invisible Needle Reserve Feat.

And you know that Reserve Feats are going to be the bread & butter of this group after they hit the level 6 cap.

[Kallimakus]

It's a party of 6. I confess that I'm more a PF guy, so I'll use the exploration rules there.
Assuming 30ft land speed and trackless cold environment, it'll take a bit over a week to travel to the Wall. Two weeks if they need to forage for supplies each day. While it depends heavily on the encounter rate, the party would probably not be level 3 at this point. (at 1 challenging encounter per day and eating rations, they wouldn't be level 2).

Re: Animals in d&d being tougher than real-world equivalents: Certainly, if you interpret hp as meat, this is the case (or alternatively, in my opinion, that d&d is not very good at modelling modern weapons. Nor is it a physics simulator). The oddities like falling from orbit dealing 20d6 damage are due to the system not built to handle that event rather than an accurate assessment of how things work. Granted, the alternative interpretation that the natural environment isn't that dangerous and that all PC's are supermen is a valid interpretation, just not the one I use.

I place in the 'hp is luck, stamina and meat' camp, and in a 'realistic' world like ASoIaF a wounds and Vigor system would model it much more faithfully than 'hp as meat'. But I admit that this is a matter of taste. Mostly since I feel that 'heroic fantasy vs low fantasy' isn't really a contest if we make the rules to favour the heroic fantasy.

Shadow assassin would, in my opinion, deliver a coup de grace, therefore having a chance to kill even a seasoned adventurer in E6. (I suppose it could also be modelled as a phantasmal killer with new flavour).

The way I see it, the hypothetical PC's will be level 6 near the end of this hypothetical campaign, not the start. So during the War of the 5 kings they would probably be levels 3-5, rather than 6 with bonus Feats. Depends on how you run the game though. D&d spellcasting is impressive, but limited by spell slots. It needs to be cleverly applied in order to make an impact. It also depends on how you interpret magic. The d20srd is rather bare, but pfsrd makes clear that using magic is always notable. that is, everyone present is aware that 1) It is magic. 2) Who cast the spell. 3) Who was the target. This is regardless of components the spell uses, so even mind-affecting or illusion spells always create these effects (there are Feats that get you around some of these issues). People without Spellcraft don't know what exactly is going on, so they are unable to tell the difference between different spells, schools and so on. I assume this isn't the case in 3.5, but I can't be sure. the d20srd seems rather incomplete.

The last question is how much we assume the party can metagame, and how aware they are of the rules that govern them. Are levels, classes, multiclassing, exp, hp and the like concrete things in the world, or simply narrative/gameplay tools to describe characters and their growth?

[johnbragg]

So, so late to this. But yesterday I wanted to chime in and support modeling the named knights of Westeros and rangers of the Night's Watch as 3-5th level characters.

Given that A Song of Ice and Fire is very light on non-human encounters (south of the Wall, anyway), one difference between ASOIF characters and D&D characters is that challenges don't scale with level. If we model a year of peacetime training, or a single real battle as a 100 xp encounter, we can start looking at some math.

Robert Baratheon reigned for 14 years, which means you have the oldest soldiers who have never seen real combat have enough XP for level 2. ("The Knights of Summer"). Model them as fighters, an average of 2d10+2 Con = 13 hp or warrior//experts, 2d8+2 Con = 11 hp. This would mean they could take 2-3 mace-to-the-face shots.* (Possibly model tourney knights with a Perform skill and the Skill Focus feat? Jousting as a Balance skill trick?)

Most of the nameless veterans of the Targaryen-Baratheon war would therefore be at the upper end of 2nd level. (Say 500 xp prewar training, 1000 xp war, 1000 xp postwar training.) The named veterans are likely to have done some awesome things, earning double XP in a few battles, accomplished this or that after the war and have reached 3rd level.

At this pace, it takes 30 more battles to reach 4th level--which is plausible for the original Kingsguard knights.

So a raging two-handed Power Attack Barbarian 6 with 18 Strength could try to solo Robert Baratheon's Kingsguard, but action economy, armor and tactical prowess says the smart money's on the 7 4th-5th level plate-armored fighters.

EDIT: Forgot the section about the Night's WAtch. The wildlings fight for real, so more of the nameless rangers are going to be 2nd level, with the leaders with beyond-the-wall experience being 3rd, with a half-dozen 4ths.

* This is evidence in favor of HP as stamina and general resiliency--you take a mace-to-the-bicep-which-hurts-like-hell where a lesser warrior would have taken a mace-to-the-face and dropped. Or you parry a mighty sword-blow--a blow which doesn't cut you, but you feel in your sword arm and shoulder and somehow in a weird muscle in your lower back for a week.

Gandalf-was-only-a-Fifth-Level-Magic-User! (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?7338-Gandalf-was-only-a-Fifth-Level-Magic-User!)

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2

[ColorBlindNinja]

It doesn't actually make any more sense than any other way of mind caulking the abstraction. HP as meat works fine for objects, but anything that can be killed with a coup de grace or massive damage has something else going on. Sneak attack is at least as basic as cure x wounds spells, and it makes zero sense if hp is only meat. You can't just cherrypick which weird rules implications count.

This is especially true in an E6 world where nobody is piling up the hp to survive being dropped from orbit anyway.

Massive Damage and Coup de Grace are attempts at nods toward realism, the Fort save for the latter is trivial at higher levels.

I'm hardly cherry picking, Sneak Attack is thematically similar to critical hits, and no other explanation is sufficient for falling from orbit and surviving.

Edit: Coup de Grace basically is a critical hit, and weaker character are unlikely to kill stronger ones with it due to the way the Fort save DC works.

Edit 2:

Critical hits deal more damage because you stabbed someone in the face. How is HP = meat insufficient for explaining that?

[Tainted_Scholar]

It doesn't actually make any more sense than any other way of mind caulking the abstraction. HP as meat works fine for objects, but anything that can be killed with a coup de grace or massive damage has something else going on. Sneak attack is at least as basic as cure x wounds spells, and it makes zero sense if hp is only meat. You can't just cherrypick which weird rules implications count.
.

Why does none of that make sense if HP is Physical toughness? Sneak attack and coup de graces are attacking vital organs to do more damage, hell it makes more sense as physical toughness since I just stabbed through the heart. As for Massive Damage, what does it even represent in fluff? Is it meant to represent going into shock or something? It doesn't really matter since I can make a save to avoid it.

Also HP as physical toughness is still a thing in E6 since the barbarian can drink a flask of acid and survive.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Also HP as physical toughness is still a thing in E6 since the barbarian can drink a flask of acid and survive.

Now I imagine a Barbarian walking into a bar and telling the barkeep he'll take the strongest acid they have.

[Mendicant]

If HP is toughness and only toughness, then everything's HP should function the way a tree's HP functions. There shouldn't be any way to bypass or shortcut it. At the point where you admit that massive damage is a "nod towards realism" the entire ediface of HP as meat, always, only and forever just falls apart.

Sneak attacks don't make much sense in that paradigm because they scale. If a sneak attack from a 7th level rogue means a stab in the kidneys or the face, what is a sneak attack from a 1st level rogue modeling? Or a critical hit for that matter? Does cutting open a person's kidneys just do more damage if there's a level tag on the knife that did it? The *simpler* solution to that question is that a 3d6 sneak attack hits the throat of both a 1st-level warrior and a 4th-level warrior, but a 1d6 sneak attack only managed to cut the throat of the 1st-level one.

There's a profoundly unwarranted assumption here that HP has to model the same thing all the time, consistently, even across the genre shifts level gain creates. There isn't any reason that HP can't change what it's modeling once you move out of low levels and into dragon-wrasslin ones. Demanding that it be this consistent physics engine is unwarranted and makes the system less capable of doing genre emulation.

[Kallimakus]

--since the barbarian can drink a flask of acid and survive.

I've seen this stated earlier, but are there explicit rules for drinking acid, or is it simply assumption based on the damage done by a flask of acid when splashed on a person? Just beating the dead horse here and saying that d&d is not a simulator. Or rather, it simulates a very odd world. But sure, it can be played straight I suppose.

In terms of this thought exercise, am I to assume that the d&d characters still obey d&d physics (if so, how does that work when interacting with potentially more realistic physics)? Or alternatively, is the entire world pulled to obey d&d physics? Or is it some form of hybrid?

[ColorBlindNinja]

If HP is toughness and only toughness, then everything's HP should function the way a tree's HP functions. There shouldn't be any way to bypass or shortcut it. At the point where you admit that massive damage is a "nod towards realism" the entire ediface of HP as meat, always, only and forever just falls apart.

Trees are objects; a large tree can survive falling from orbit into a volcano. It can survive 7 rounds in the crater before being destroyed.


Sneak attacks don't make much sense in that paradigm because they scale. If a sneak attack from a 7th level rogue means a stab in the kidneys or the face, what is a sneak attack from a 1st level rogue modeling? Or a critical hit for that matter? Does cutting open a person's kidneys just do more damage if there's a level tag on the knife that did it? The *simpler* solution to that question is that a 3d6 sneak attack hits the throat of both a 1st-level warrior and a 4th-level warrior, but a 1d6 sneak attack only managed to cut the throat of the 1st-level one.

Higher level characters are better at dealing damage, Rogues especially.


There's a profoundly unwarranted assumption here that HP has to model the same thing all the time, consistently, even across the genre shifts level gain creates. There isn't any reason that HP can't change what it's modeling once you move out of low levels and into dragon-wrasslin ones. Demanding that it be this consistent physics engine is unwarranted and makes the system less capable of doing genre emulation.

Occam's Razor should apply here; HP being toughness explains everything reasonably well, we don't need to drag in other explanations.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I've seen this stated earlier, but are there explicit rules for drinking acid, or is it simply assumption based on the damage done by a flask of acid when splashed on a person? Just beating the dead horse here and saying that d&d is not a simulator. Or rather, it simulates a very odd world. But sure, it can be played straight I suppose.

If you don't it straight you have make crap up. At which point you are no longer dealing with a D&D character but rather a homebrew character.



In terms of this thought exercise, am I to assume that the d&d characters still obey d&d physics (if so, how does that work when interacting with potentially more realistic physics)? Or alternatively, is the entire world pulled to obey d&d physics? Or is it some form of hybrid?

D&D characters obey D&D rules, westeros obeys westeros rules. Interaction between the two isn't that hard.

[Sapreaver]

I think the best party of 6 for this would be 6 dragon born of bahamut warforged choosing heart for the breath weapon. No need to eat or sleep wights will go down to the breath weapons and still 32 point buy cause no la.

The party composition that would work best imho would be 2 barbarians a paladin a sorcerer(repair light damage) a bard and a rogue.

Dragons are deep in the lore of the world. If 6 beings appeared who could breath fire every and had heavy dragon like traits appeared they might not be treated as gods but they would most certainly have some sway with people. Even if its strictly from how intimidating 6 metal dragonmen are
Adamantine body on the barbs and paladin makes them basically indestructible.

Have all 6 grab a couple metabreath feats as time goes on the sorcerer starting with it so they can save their spells for repairs. Everyone maxes out con and than their relevant stats and bam. The barbs start with 17 hp the paladin 15 the rogue and bard 11 and the sorc 9.

They should absolutely conquer westeros

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think the best party of 6 for this would be 6 dragon born of bahamut warforged choosing heart for the breath weapon. No need to eat or sleep wights will go down to the breath weapons and still 32 point buy cause no la.

The party composition that would work best imho would be 2 barbarians a paladin a sorcerer(repair light damage) a bard and a rogue.

Dragons are deep in the lore of the world. If 6 beings appeared who could breath fire every and had heavy dragon like traits appeared they might not be treated as gods but they would most certainly have some sway with people. Even if its strictly from how intimidating 6 metal dragonmen are
Adamantine body on the barbs and paladin makes them basically indestructible.

Have all 6 grab a couple metabreath feats as time goes on the sorcerer starting with it so they can save their spells for repairs. Everyone maxes out con and than their relevant stats and bam. The barbs start with 17 hp the paladin 15 the rogue and bard 11 and the sorc 9.

They should absolutely conquer westeros

Dragon robots... I like it!

[Dagroth]

Sneak attacks don't make much sense in that paradigm because they scale. If a sneak attack from a 7th level rogue means a stab in the kidneys or the face, what is a sneak attack from a 1st level rogue modeling? Or a critical hit for that matter? Does cutting open a person's kidneys just do more damage if there's a level tag on the knife that did it? The *simpler* solution to that question is that a 3d6 sneak attack hits the throat of both a 1st-level warrior and a 4th-level warrior, but a 1d6 sneak attack only managed to cut the throat of the 1st-level one.

A higher level rogue does more damage because he knows more about vulnerable spots and is more accurate with his attacks.

A first level rogue stabs at the kidneys and might just nick one... a seven level rogue waits that extra half-second so his opponent is leaning just the right way and he hits deeper. Or he stabs between the ribs and hits a lung. An even higher level rogue knows that when you stab a specific location then you twist your wrist just so before you slice as just the right direction when you bring your blade across.

Sneak Attack for non-lethal works the same. The first level rogue knows to hit the head with the sap. The seven level rogue knows to hit just behind the top of the head. The 15th level rogue knows to wait until the person is just starting to turn and hit directly on the temple with a blow angled just so.

[Mendicant]

Trees are objects; a large tree can survive falling from orbit into a volcano. It can survive 7 rounds in the crater before being destroyed.

This in no way, shape, or form addresses my point.


Higher level characters are better at dealing damage, Rogues especially.

Again, not actually an answer, because your model for hit points doesn't actually tell anyone what "better at dealing damage" means, other than circling back to "subtracts more hit points." Do rogues only unlock kidney stabbing at higher levels? Is a 17th level rogue stabbing people in their triple-secret doom kidney? "HP aren't just meat" let's them get better at dealing damage by more consistently hitting the same vital organs any moron cutthroat would already know the location of, even against targets who are much better at defending themselves.

You can't demand that HP have a coherent and consistent meaning when somebody is submerged in lava and then just handwave it elsewhere.


Occam's Razor should apply here; HP being toughness explains everything reasonably well, we don't need to drag in other explanations.

A: It does not actually explain everything reasonably well unless you just handwave all the places where it doesn't fit.

B: The *simplest* explanation is that the actual explicit rules text says that HP are an abstraction that represents more than pure toughness.

C: "HP do not represent any one single thing and are not consistent in what they represent from scenario to scenario, use the explanation that is most appropriate to the scene, genre and power level" is also a very simple explanation that covers all possible bases.

[johnbragg]

A higher level rogue does more damage because he knows more about vulnerable spots and is more accurate with his attacks.

A first level rogue stabs at the kidneys and might just nick one... a seven level rogue waits that extra half-second so his opponent is leaning just the right way and he hits deeper. Or he stabs between the ribs and hits a lung. An even higher level rogue knows that when you stab a specific location then you twist your wrist just so before you slice as just the right direction when you bring your blade across.


Are we not just chasing our tails here? A seventh-level rogue can perform kidney surgery, but that's balanced because a seventh-level barbarian is so tough that he can shrug off having his kidney sliced in half and keep fighting.....

Isn't it simpler to declare that, as long as you're walking, HP loss is not meat damage but fatigue/muscle pain/"ability to tell the universe NO"?

With that paradigm, if a first level rogue stabs you in the kidneys and does 8 damage and drops you below 1 hit point, he stabbed you in the kidneys and you're dying. IF he does 8 damage and you have 30 hit points left, he managed to stab you, but it's more painful than lifethreatening because you have the battle-savvy to have moved an inch to the left and an inch forward.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Again, not actually an answer, because your model for hit points doesn't actually tell anyone what "better at dealing damage" means, other than circling back to "subtracts more hit points." Do rogues only unlock kidney stabbing at higher levels? Is a 17th level rogue stabbing people in their triple-secret doom kidney? "HP aren't just meat" let's them get better at dealing damage by more consistently hitting the same vital organs any moron cutthroat would already know the location of, even against targets who are much better at defending themselves.


If HP is just physical toughness then higher damage represents hitting harder. 100 damage is simply more force than 50 damage.

As for the rouge's sneak attack, it represents them hitting harder and with more precision.



You can't demand that HP have a coherent and consistent meaning when somebody is submerged in lava and then just handwave it elsewhere.

A: It does not actually explain everything reasonably well unless you just handwave all the places where it doesn't fit.

What exactly are we handwaving away?

[ColorBlindNinja]

This in no way, shape, or form addresses my point.

Objects don't make sense at all; they also don't have vital organs. Edit: It doesn't matter that things like Sneak Attack and Coup de Grace deal extra damage to living creatures, that in no way invalidates the HP = toughness answer.


Again, not actually an answer, because your model for hit points doesn't actually tell anyone what "better at dealing damage" means, other than circling back to "subtracts more hit points." Do rogues only unlock kidney stabbing at higher levels? Is a 17th level rogue stabbing people in their triple-secret doom kidney? "HP aren't just meat" let's them get better at dealing damage by more consistently hitting the same vital organs any moron cutthroat would already know the location of, even against targets who are much better at defending themselves.

You can't demand that HP have a coherent and consistent meaning when somebody is submerged in lava and then just handwave it elsewhere.

- Higher level characters deal more damage at higher levels. There's really nothing more to it than that.

- The more HP you have, the tougher you are, it's that simple.


A: It does not actually explain everything reasonably well unless you just handwave all the places where it doesn't fit.

Where doesn't it fit?


B: The *simplest* explanation is that the actual explicit rules text says that HP are an abstraction that represents more than pure toughness.

Except none of the other explanations stand up to scrutiny.


C: "HP do not represent any one single thing and are not consistent in what they represent from scenario to scenario, use the explanation that is most appropriate to the scene, genre and power level" is also a very simple explanation that covers all possible bases.

No it doesn't. Mixing and matching half a dozen different options involves more unwarranted assumptions than a singular explanation.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Are we not just chasing our tails here? A seventh-level rogue can perform kidney surgery, but that's balanced because a seventh-level barbarian is so tough that he can shrug off having his kidney sliced in half and keep fighting.....

Isn't it simpler to declare that, as long as you're walking, HP loss is not meat damage but fatigue/muscle pain/"ability to tell the universe NO"?

With that paradigm, if a first level rogue stabs you in the kidneys and does 8 damage and drops you below 1 hit point, he stabbed you in the kidneys and you're dying. IF he does 8 damage and you have 30 hit points left, he managed to stab you, but it's more painful than lifethreatening because you have the battle-savvy to have moved an inch to the left and an inch forward.

And how does that work when I'm on fire?

[Mendicant]

Sneak Attack for non-lethal works the same. The first level rogue knows to hit the head with the sap. The seven level rogue knows to hit just behind the top of the head. The 15th level rogue knows to wait until the person is just starting to turn and hit directly on the temple with a blow angled just so.

If we're trying to decide a version of hit points that "makes sense", we should probably avoid anything that requires rogues to only learn that a blow to the back of the head is more damaging at seventh level. *I* know this, and I'm pretty sure I am not what a seventh level character is supposed to emulate.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If we're trying to decide a version of hit points that "makes sense", we should probably avoid anything that requires rogues to only learn that a blow to the back of the head is more damaging at seventh level. *I* know this, and I'm pretty sure I am not what a seventh level character is supposed to emulate.

Rogues aren't learning anything at 7th level or any level that teaches them to deal extra damage; they just are capable of dealing more damage through virtue of leveling up.

Just like leveling up gives them more HP.

Edit: Learning new tricks might be involved, but they might require more training, thus higher levels.

[Tainted_Scholar]

If we're trying to decide a version of hit points that "makes sense", we should probably avoid anything that requires rogues to only learn that a blow to the back of the head is more damaging at seventh level. *I* know this, and I'm pretty sure I am not what a seventh level character is supposed to emulate.

Knowing something and actually putting it into practice are two very different things. Plus it's probably more complicated just "hit them in the face!".

[ColorBlindNinja]

Sneak Attacks and Coup de Grace actually support HP as toughness paradigm because I survived being stabbed in the kidneys or having my throat slit.

Edit:

With Coup de Grace in particular, how else I am I surviving having a spear thrust into my unconscious body?

Fort saves are influenced by CON and HD, and the former is explicitly toughness.

[Dagroth]

If we're trying to decide a version of hit points that "makes sense", we should probably avoid anything that requires rogues to only learn that a blow to the back of the head is more damaging at seventh level. *I* know this, and I'm pretty sure I am not what a seventh level character is supposed to emulate.


Rogues aren't learning anything at 7th level or any level that teaches them to deal extra damage; they just are capable of dealing more damage through virtue of leveling up.

Just like leveling up gives them more HP.

Edit: Learning new tricks might be involved, but they might require more training, thus higher levels.

Do you know where on the back of the head deals more damage? Do you have the "experience" from doing this multiple times in combat situations so that you'll only do "subduing" damage and not a lethal head-blow?

A higher level character has more "experiences" to draw upon... has learned more from "experience" with what works better. A rogue specifically pays attention to "precision"... thus has fewer attacks per round (and a slightly lower chance to score a "telling blow" (one that does damage)) than a character with full BAB at the same level.

One can expand upon this to include virtually every class in the game.

[Mendicant]

Sneak Attacks and Coup de Grace actually support HP as toughness paradigm because I survived being stabbed in the kidneys or having my throat slit.

Edit:

With Coup de Grace in particular, how else I am I surviving having a spear thrust into my unconscious body?

Fort saves are influenced by CON and HD, and the former is explicitly toughness.

...Surviving a coup de grace because you passed a fort save means that "fortitude" is in fact a synonym for "toughness." It doesn't mean that HP are purely meatpoints. It doesn't tell you anything at all about HP, except that sometimes you have to check how tough a character is even if they don't drop below -10.

[Tainted_Scholar]

...Surviving a coup de grace because you passed a fort save means that "fortitude" is in fact a synonym for "toughness." It doesn't mean that HP are purely meatpoints. It doesn't tell you anything at all about HP, except that sometimes you have to check how tough a character is even if they don't drop below -10.

I still survived being impaled on a spear.

[Nifft]

Now I'm picturing soldiers walking around covered in thick slabs of meat.

- Steakmail
- Studded Jerky
- Chicken Breast Plate with Skirt Steak
- Full Plate (of Meat)

"Hah! Look at all my juicy, tender meat points!"

[Mendicant]

I still survived being impaled on a spear.

If you insist on describing it that way, sure. It had nothing to do with your hitpoints though. You got impaled, which necessitated checking something other than you hp, and then survived not because you had more hitpoints but because a more direct analogue to toughness said "nope".

[Tainted_Scholar]

If you insist on describing it that way, sure. It had nothing to do with your hitpoints though. You got impaled, which necessitated checking something other than you hp, and then survived not because you had more hitpoints but because a more direct analogue to toughness said "nope".

You do realise that Con is linked to both Fort Saves and HP. Additionally I still take HP damage when impaled on a spear. And if I can shrug off being impaled with a Fort Save, then you've shown that D&D characters can survive that type of wound. So why can't HP just be physical toughness?

[johnbragg]

You do realise that Con is linked to both Fort Saves and HP. Additionally I still take HP damage when impaled on a spear. And if I can shrug off being impaled with a Fort Save, then you've shown that D&D characters can survive that type of wound. So why can't HP just be physical toughness?

TIL that coup-de-grace gets a Fort save in 3.5. That's a fairly conclusive RAW statement that HP is (mostly) meat.

Having lost the RAW argument, I argue in the alternative that RAW doesn't make as much sense here as HP being a measurement of the characters' ability to ignore the pain and go on, the characters's savvy in just barely escaping a disabling blow, etc. Especially in the context of having D&D characters--who laugh off dagger wounds and wake up the next day completely healed-- fight Westerosi, who may die from dagger wounds, or may suffer twinges of pain for decades after the wound mostly--but only mostly-heals.

(As for things like lava, I'd model that as gritting ones teeth and pushing past the pain, and a little bit of gritting ones teeth and telling physics to go away for awhile. That does work better in a more high-magic environment than Westeros--I treat willpower as a force of D&D physics more important than gravity. Dragons do not fly because their wings generate X amount of lift that overcomes Y amount of drag--they fly because they are high-HD creatures who are firmly convinced that they can fly, a belief that is reinforced by the beliefs of uncounted sentients that dragons can fly. And evasion is a rogue choosing not to be present at the moment when AoE damage takes effect. )

[Mendicant]

You do realise that Con is linked to both Fort Saves and HP. Additionally I still take HP damage when impaled on a spear. And if I can shrug off being impaled with a Fort Save, then you've shown that D&D characters can survive that type of wound. So why can't HP just be physical toughness?

Because it doesn't make sense, because if it was just toughness you wouldn't need the additional check of toughness.

Also because a single unified explanation for what hp are is explicitly *not* RAW, not necessary, not actually simpler, and it makes the system needlesly rigid and less immersive.

"HP as plot armor" answers every single objection you've raised, doesn't create an endlessly nested series of new questions, and is dead simple as an explanation. It also actually lets you model ASoIaF with low-level DnD.

[johnbragg]

"HP as plot armor" answers every single objection you've raised, doesn't create an endlessly nested series of new questions, and is dead simple as an explanation. It also actually lets you model ASoIaF with low-level DnD.

It works, and I think it's a better explanation than HP-as-meat, especially when you're modeling fictional characters from outside D&D, but it isn't especially RAW.

But coup-de-grace having a Fort save indicates HP-as-meat. If you're getting coup-de-grace'd, you're all out of plot armor.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Because it doesn't make sense, because if it was just toughness you wouldn't need the additional check of toughness.

The reason I need to make a Fort Save is because I'm taking a lot of damage to a vital portion of my body.



"HP as plot armor" answers every single objection you've raised, doesn't create an endlessly nested series of new questions, and is dead simple as an explanation. It also actually lets you model ASoIaF with low-level DnD.

HP as plot armor doesn't work because;

A: That's not an in universe explanation. It doesn't mean anything in the setting.
B: It doesn't matter how much plot armour a character has, a normal person cannot survive being submerged in lava. How would explain that away with Plot Armour?

[johnbragg]

The reason I need to make a Fort Save is because I'm taking a lot of damage to a vital portion of my body.

The question isn't why you NEED to make a Fort Save. It's why you GET to make a Fort Save. Because having double-digit hit points means you're superhumanly tough. (That's the implication of save vs coup-de-grace.)


HP as plot armor doesn't work because;

A: That's not an in universe explanation. It doesn't mean anything in the setting.
B: It doesn't matter how much plot armour a character has, a normal person cannot survive being submerged in lava. How would explain that away with Plot Armour?

Unless you're playing d20 Modern, you're not playing with this universe's physics. A normal person can't breathe the fumes coming off of an underground volcano. But Obi Wan and Anikin can, because they're Jedi and midichlorians something something. In a fantasy game, powerful minds/beings can reshape the universe around them. Brak Barbarian can swim through the river of lava because the mighty force of his grim determination something something so he doesn't get incinerated, it just hurts a lot.

Works better in Oerth or Krynn than in Westeros, though.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Unless you're playing d20 Modern, you're not playing with this universe's physics. A normal person can't breathe the fumes coming off of an underground volcano. But Obi Wan and Anikin can, because they're Jedi and midichlorians something something. In a fantasy game, powerful minds/beings can reshape the universe around them. Brak Barbarian can swim through the river of lava because the mighty force of his grim determination something something so he doesn't get incinerated, it just hurts a lot.

Works better in Oerth or Krynn than in Westeros, though.

Well the Adventurers are running off of D&D so it should still work in Westeros.

[Mendicant]

Hit points already have an explicit definition.

Yes. An explicit definition that very explicitly is two things, not one, and also explicitly includes turning a serious wound into something less serious, which opens the door to just about any explanation you want. I'm not actually married to RAW, but the meatpoints theory is pretty clearly in violation of it regardless.


But coup-de-grace having a Fort save indicates HP-as-meat. If you're getting coup-de-grace'd, you're all out of plot armor.

A: Hitpoints arent even the operative thing in that situation anyway.

B: Getting coup de graced and still somehow survivng is literally about as plot armory as it is possible to get.



A: That's not an in universe explanation. It doesn't mean anything in the setting.

That is literally the whole point. HP shouldn't be a direct in-universe thing that people know about or measure or make OotS-stlye references to unless you're deliberately going for a silly 4th-wall breaking game.


B: It doesn't matter how much plot armour a character has, a normal person cannot survive being submerged in lava. How would explain that away with Plot Armour?

Who said plot armor can't include supernatural toughness? Plot armor is plot armor. It's whatever is appropriate thematically and narratively in that moment.
I'm not sure what normal people have to do with this one way or another, since normal people don't have 150 hit points.

[johnbragg]

Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

This ranks above the coup-de-grace special rule, and supports HP-as-plot-armor. The 7th level rogue tries to slice out your kidneys, doing 25 points of damage. A 1st level barbarian would be ruined, a 3rd level barbarian would only stay standing by sheer force of will and determination (1 hp) while the 7th level barbarian dodges at just the right moment, saving his kidneys but taking a nasty painful gash across the back that makes it hurt to breathe(35 hp left out of 60.)

I'm going to go back to ignoring the Fort save on a coup-de-grace.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Yes. An explicit definition that very explicitly is two things, not one, and also explicitly includes turning a serious wound into something less serious, which opens the door to just about any explanation you want. I'm not actually married to RAW, but the meatpoints theory is pretty clearly in violation of it regardless.

A: Hitpoints arent even the operative thing in that situation anyway.

B: Getting coup de graced and still somehow survivng is literally about as plot armory as it is possible to get.

That is literally the whole point. HP shouldn't be a direct in-universe thing that people know about or measure or make OotS-stlye references to unless you're deliberately going for a silly 4th-wall breaking game.

Who said plot armor can't include supernatural toughness? Plot armor is plot armor. It's whatever is appropriate thematically and narratively in that moment.
I'm not sure what normal people have to do with this one way or another, since normal people don't have 150 hit points.

Listen, I'm getting tired of arguing this, it's not important to thread at hand, so I'm dropping this.

[johnbragg]

Well the Adventurers are running off of D&D so it should still work in Westeros.

I'm not sold on having PCs and NPCs work on different game engines. I'd just model the GoT characters as E6 D&D characters, maybe homebrew a base class or two (WEsterosi Knights, Nights Watch Rangers) or just go with SRD Fighters, Warriors, Experts, Aristocrats, gestalt Warrior//Experts.

Although that might be ton of work that's already been done in the ASOIF game and not worth converting.

[johnbragg]

Listen, I'm getting tired of arguing this, it's not important to thread at hand, so I'm dropping this.

OK. The PCs have real trouble reaching the Wall and reaching 3rd level, but if they do (especially the spellcasters) it's game over for Westeros.

[TotallyNotEvil]

The coup de grace rule supports the current definition for Hit Points, as being helpless denies someone "the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one."

But supports the "plot armour" explanation, which is the other half of it. Aka, you got flat out lucky. He wanted to slice your carotid artery, but ended up giving you a tracheotomy.

[ColorBlindNinja]

"HP as plot armor" answers every single objection you've raised, doesn't create an endlessly nested series of new questions, and is dead simple as an explanation. It also actually lets you model ASoIaF with low-level DnD.

No it doesn't! How can you run out of plot armor?

Toughness is simple; you're not invincible, you can be worn down by taking a beating.


You can't. The designers just failed to properly assess how deadly it is to be submerged in lava.

Your proof of this, is?


The coup de grace rule supports the current definition for Hit Points, as being helpless denies someone "the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one."

How does that work if you're falling from orbit?

Edit: Luck already exists as a bonus type in 3.5, so that doesn't explain HP.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Submersion in lava deals 20d6 damage in the first round, and 10d6 damage for 1d3 rounds after that. This makes the lowest possible damage incurred 30 points. Low odds of this, but it's possible.


Barbarian PCs get a number of Hit Points per level equal to d12 + Constitution modifier, plus 12 + Constitution modifier at 1st level. With 10-11 Constitution, a Barbarian with average Hit Points at each level beyond 1st has 31 or 32 Hit Points at 4th level. They will be able to survive 6 seconds of submersion without even falling unconscious, assuming they lack the Diehard feat, and live to tell the tale.

And? Even low level characters can be superhuman.



People in the real world have fallen far beyond the height threshold and survived.

:smallconfused: What? They fell from orbit, hit the ground, and survived? Excuse me if I'm skeptical.


How does the luck bonus factor into this?

I was saying that shows that luck has an effect RAW, and thus can't be an explanation for HP.

[Tainted_Scholar]

People in the real world have fallen far beyond the height threshold and survived.

I'm fairly certain that nobody in real life has survived a free fall from a mile up onto solid concrete.

[Mechalich]

I'm not sold on having PCs and NPCs work on different game engines. I'd just model the GoT characters as E6 D&D characters, maybe homebrew a base class or two (WEsterosi Knights, Nights Watch Rangers) or just go with SRD Fighters, Warriors, Experts, Aristocrats, gestalt Warrior//Experts.


It's fairly easy, for thought exercise purposes, to model GoT Characters as E6 characters. You really only have to consider a handful of classes. Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, and the NPC classes. There's only a handful of primary spellcasting characters like Bran and Melisandre who have adept levels but have to use the GoT magic system which is massively inferior to D&D Vancian casting. The most common class among characters who show up in the series is actually Aristocrat, followed by Expert and Warrior. Only a small number of dedicated military types are formally trained fighters - there's a speech given to Jon Snow precisely about this during his early Night's Watch training. Most knights will be Aristocrat/Fighter combinations - like Jamie Lannister. Straight class fighters will be rare - The Hound is a good example. Fighter/Rogue types will also exist - ex. Bronn.


OK. The PCs have real trouble reaching the Wall and reaching 3rd level, but if they do (especially the spellcasters) it's game over for Westeros.

This is the key. Even modeled as E6 characters on their own, the average power player in Westeros is probably a 3-4th level aristocrat with average stats. There will be a few who are hard to influence - Tywin Lannister is surely a 6th level Aristocrat with probably 5-10 extra feats, one of which is likely to be Iron Will. Figure he has a wisdom of 18 (starts at 16, +2 for middle and old age), and he's rocking a will save of +11. Aristocrat and Expert both have good Will saves but bad Fort saves, while Fighters and Barbarians have the reverse. Rogues are just doomed.

And I don't think it's that difficult for the party to reach the wall. The cold resistance of Lesser Aasimar or Tieflings means you start as better at surviving in the wilderness than almost any other living creature north of the wall. Even 0-level divine spells flat out eliminate major challenges - Create Water, Know Direction, and Purify Food and Drink go a long ways. Add in Charm animal - to defeat most predator encounters - and Goodberry - as a food source and you're already halfway home.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Even if it's very unlikely for it to happen, when a 6th level NPC with average Hit Points from each Hit Die, only levels in Aristocrat or Warrior, and just the Nonelite Array can survive being submerged in lava for 6 seconds, then run off to do some cartwheels and high jumps, it's a bit difficult to say that the designers didn't make a mistake.

Rules are rules; they're all the matter in RAW.



I meant the height threshold for falling damage, which is 200 feet.

OK.



Wouldn't know about that, but some searching led to something about Vesna Vulović surviving a fall from well over a mile high.

:smallconfused: Sometimes reality is stranger than fiction.

Edit:


Tywin Lannister is surely a 6th level Aristocrat with probably 5-10 extra feats, one of which is likely to be Iron Will. Figure he has a wisdom of 18 (starts at 16, +2 for middle and old age), and he's rocking a will save of +11. Aristocrat and Expert both have good Will saves but bad Fort saves, while Fighters and Barbarians have the reverse. Rogues are just doomed.

No, he'd be lucky to be above level 3; level 6 is absurd.

[Tainted_Scholar]

When a 6th level NPC with average Hit Points from each Hit Die, only levels in Aristocrat or Warrior, and just the Nonelite Array can survive being submerged in lava for 6 seconds, even with very low odds for their survival, it's a bit difficult to say that the designers didn't make a mistake.


I meant the height threshold for falling damage, which is 200 feet.


Wouldn't know about that, but some searching led to something about Vesna Vulović surviving a fall from well over a mile high.

1. Whether it was a mistake or intentional, the end result is D&D characters being ungodly tough.

2. There were probably several factors that allowed those people to survive falls from high up, such as what they landed on, how they hit the ground, etc. A D&D character can just dive out of a plane on to solid rock and survive.

[johnbragg]

Even if it's very unlikely for it to happen, when a 6th level NPC with average Hit Points from each Hit Die, only levels in Aristocrat or Warrior, and just the Nonelite Array can survive being submerged in lava for 6 seconds, then run off to do some cartwheels and high jumps, it's a bit difficult to say that the designers didn't make a mistake.

Point the First: Another way to look at this is that D&D lava isn't as dangerous as real-world lava.

Point the SEcond: A 6th level character, PC or NPC, is approaching superhero territory in a lot of ways. A 6th level character has somehow ground through 100 encounters yielding 100 xp each, or the equivalent. I'm not that surprised that this guy can survive being dipped in lava, or can ride out a nuclear blast inside a refrigerator, or can drive a car off of a ship into a helicopter and jump to safety. That's the kind of thing 6th level characters DO.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Or we could just say the designers made a mistake, and double the amount of damage dice?

They also could've just boiled an anthill to get all of those levels.

1. You're not the game designer, you can't do that. We're using D&D as it actually is, not as what you think it should be. As it is, D&D characters are super durable.

2. No they couldn't have, they wouldn't get enough XP from doing that.

[ColorBlindNinja]

In this instance, reality and D&D coincide.

They often do.


Or we could just say the designers made a mistake, and double the amount of damage dice?

That wouldn't be RAW.

[Mendicant]

No it doesn't! How can you run out of plot armor?

By turning it into a resource you can run out of.


Edit: Luck already exists as a bonus type in 3.5, so that doesn't explain HP.

Physical toughness already exists as a Con score and modifier, DR, and Fortitude save bonus. There is no reason you can't express a concept like luck or hardiness with multiple character resources.

[Tainted_Scholar]

By turning it into a resource you can run out of.

Physical toughness already exists as a Con score and modifier, DR, and Fortitude save bonus. There is no reason you can't express a concept like luck or hardiness with multiple character resources.

1. That's not how plot armor works.

2. HP directly comes from Con, and there's no actual precedence for HP being luck.

[ColorBlindNinja]

By turning it into a resource you can run out of.

That's not an answer.


Physical toughness already exists as a Con score and modifier, DR, and Fortitude save bonus. There is no reason you can't express a concept like luck or hardiness with multiple character resources.

CON directly influences your HP; luck is a bonus type.

[johnbragg]

It's fairly easy, for thought exercise purposes, to model GoT Characters as E6 characters.

I think OP wants to run a game. But I might just be assuming that.


You really only have to consider a handful of classes. Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, and the NPC classes.

I don't know how I forgot Rogues. I could see modelling a lot of GoT aristocrats as Warrior//Experts--they're professionally trained fighters, but most of them have more skills than 2 + Int.


There's only a handful of primary spellcasting characters like Bran and Melisandre who have adept levels but have to use the GoT magic system which is massively inferior to D&D Vancian casting.

I wouldn't bother to adapt their character progressions to 3.5 at all. The books say what stuff they can do, the DM has to figure out the ranges, DCs, damage dice, etc. Make them Experts at whatever level you think makes sense for the hit points you want to give them.



The most common class among characters who show up in the series is actually Aristocrat, followed by Expert and Warrior. Only a small number of dedicated military types are formally trained fighters - there's a speech given to Jon Snow precisely about this during his early Night's Watch training. Most knights will be Aristocrat/Fighter combinations - like Jamie Lannister. Straight class fighters will be rare - The Hound is a good example. Fighter/Rogue types will also exist - ex. Bronn.

I think you're underestimating the number of Fighters training at all the keeps and castles across Westeros. Although I just said I'd stat them up as Warrior//Experts. Maybe give that homebrewed class bonus feats at 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th levels.


This is the key. Even modeled as E6 characters on their own, the average power player in Westeros is probably a 3-4th level aristocrat with average stats. There will be a few who are hard to influence - Tywin Lannister is surely a 6th level Aristocrat with probably 5-10 extra feats, one of which is likely to be Iron Will. Figure he has a wisdom of 18 (starts at 16, +2 for middle and old age), and he's rocking a will save of +11.

Tap the brakes on "Surely." I could be persuaded on Tywin, but level-appropriate challenges are rather hard to come by in Westeros after the first few levels. My inclination is that the stars of the setting are 4th level. 60 100xp challenges is a lot.


And I don't think it's that difficult for the party to reach the wall. The cold resistance of Lesser Aasimar or Tieflings means you start as better at surviving in the wilderness than almost any other living creature north of the wall.

Depends on how much foreknowledge they have / how much metagaming is allowed.



Even 0-level divine spells flat out eliminate major challenges - Create Water, Know Direction, and Purify Food and Drink go a long ways. Add in Charm animal - to defeat most predator encounters - and Goodberry - as a food source and you're already halfway home.

Wait, you mean Druids trivialize a nature challenge? Well say your favorite folksy regional idiom for surprise.

[Mendicant]

That's not an answer.

Sure it is.

If you don't like "plot armor" as a description for a purely meta concept that has no direct analogue in-universe or in the real world and just describes how high level (another meta concept) can take crossbow bolts and keep truckin, you can call it something else.

Hit points, for instance.


CON directly influences your HP; luck is a bonus type.

CON "influences your HP" through a bonus. This is the silliest hill to die on in this whole thread.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Sure it is.

If you don't like "plot armor" as a description for a purely meta concept that has no direct analogue in-universe or in the real world and just describes how high level (another meta concept) can take crossbow bolts and keep truckin, you can call it something else.

Hit points, for instance.

So your in universe explanation for a meta concept, is a meta concept. Do you see why I have an issue with that?


CON "influences your HP" through a bonus. This is the silliest hill to die on in this whole thread.

It still means you get more HP by being tough; that supports the idea of HP being toughness.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Sure it is.

If you don't like "plot armor" as a description for a purely meta concept that has no direct analogue in-universe or in the real world and just describes how high level (another meta concept) can take crossbow bolts and keep truckin, you can call it something else.

Hit points, for instance.



CON "influences your HP" through a bonus. This is the silliest hill to die on in this whole thread.

1. So your explanation for HP is HP. I can calculate Pi with this logic, it's that circular.

2. HP comes from Con, which is toughness, which implies that HP is toughness. Especially since you can't get extra HP from luck, or Dex, or whatever you want to claim that HP is.

[johnbragg]

They also could've just boiled an anthill to get all of those levels.

As someone else pointed out, ants don't have an XP value.

Toads do, however. PFSRD gives toads an XP value of 50 (which is really high, frankly). So our NPC has to overcome 300 toad encounters to earn 6th level. And that's if you disregard the DMG text about encounters that present no danger to the character yielding no experience. (I may be remembering that from 2nd edition--the 7th level party hunting down and killing a single orc to grind out the XP for level 8.)

A 6th level NPC has seen some stuff, man.

[johnbragg]

Is anyone interested in a defense of "HP as plot armor" that is not RAW, but in terms of game philosophy?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Is anyone interested in a defense of "HP as plot armor" that is not RAW, but in terms of game philosophy?

I think from a game design perspective, HP is just something to keep players from dying instantly at higher levels.

I don't think it's supposed to represent anything.

Edit: From a game design standpoint, that is.

[Mendicant]

So your in universe explanation for a meta concept, is a meta concept. Do you see why I have an issue with that?

My in-universe explanation for a meta concept is that it is a meta concept. Do you have a physiological explanation for class level too? Do you have an exhaustice explanation for what the hell a wisdom score is?



It still means you get more HP by being tough; that supports the idea of HP being toughness.

That supports the idea that HP is partially toughness and partially something else, just as RAW explicitly describes it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

My in-universe explanation for a meta concept is that it is a meta concept. Do you have a physiological explanation for class level too? Do you have an exhaustice explanation for what the hell a wisdom score is?

- As you gain experience, you become stronger.

- Wisdom is how wise you are.



That supports the idea that HP is partially toughness and partially something else, just as RAW explicitly describes it.

That leaves us with rolling with punches and toughness. The former doesn't make much sense, but that's RAW for you.

This is especially true when it comes to being set on fire.

Neither of those explanations are plot armor, though.

[Tainted_Scholar]

My in-universe explanation for a meta concept is that it is a meta concept. Do you have a physiological explanation for class level too? Do you have an exhaustice explanation for what the hell a wisdom score is?

That supports the idea that HP is partially toughness and partially something else, just as RAW explicitly describes it.

1. Class level is how experienced you are, wisdom score is how wise you are.

2. What exactly is that other thing? It can't be turning aside a blow, because then Dex would give you extra HP. It can't be divine favor, because then clerics would get extra HP.

[Mendicant]

Is anyone interested in a defense of "HP as plot armor" that is not RAW, but in terms of game philosophy?

I already have. HP as plot armor, or whatever you want to call it if the definition of plot armor is narrow and sacrosanct for some reason, makes the game engine instantly better at genre emulation without you having to do a thing to it, rules wise.

That said, in my own games I also have house rules that tie the engine a bit more closely to that theme. Cure spells, for instance, heal based on you HD, not using d8s.

[ColorBlindNinja]

XP is life force isn't it?

Higher level characters have more XP than lower level ones, and you gain it mostly by killing things.

High level D&D characters have more life force, hence are tougher, and they may even gain more of it by stealing from the people they kill.

That last bit is just a theory, but it certainly makes D&D more metal, if it's true.

[Elkad]

6 1st level spell slots (or one Dragonfire Adept) mostly solves the cold problem. Endure Elements moves the threshold for cold damage from 40 degrees to -50.
It isn't listed, but presumably you'd start from -50 on the standard cold damage table beyond that. So from -51 to -90 you'd have a Fort save an hour.

Say it stays above -50 most of the time, but falls below occasionally. Dump the party in at 20 degrees, with a survival(weather) check to tell them it's unseasonably warm. That should panic them nicely.
Give them some encounters to scrounge cold weather gear.
Then we hit them with a cold snap. -60 for 8 hours? That's 8 checks, DC15 to DC22

Given that cold weather gear (+5), and someone who can manage a DC20 survival check regularly (4 ranks, 2 wis, and 5 untrained people to Aid Another, only 2 of which have to make it) for another +4 (assuming they stop to wait it out), the Wizard is looking at a +11. Better throw in a bonus for a fire too.
He's still in trouble.

[ColorBlindNinja]

6 1st level spell slots (or one Dragonfire Adept) mostly solves the cold problem. Endure Elements moves the threshold for cold damage from 40 degrees to -50.
It isn't listed, but presumably you'd start from -50 on the standard cold damage table beyond that. So from -51 to -90 you'd have a Fort save an hour.

Say it stays above -50 most of the time, but falls below occasionally. Dump the party in at 20 degrees, with a survival(weather) check to tell them it's unseasonably warm. That should panic them nicely.
Give them some encounters to scrounge cold weather gear.
Then we hit them with a cold snap. -60 for 8 hours? That's 8 checks, DC15 to DC22

Given that cold weather gear (+5), and someone who can manage a DC20 survival check regularly (4 ranks, 2 wis, and 5 untrained people to Aid Another, only 2 of which have to make it) for another +4 (assuming they stop to wait it out), the Wizard is looking at a +11. Better throw in a bonus for a fire too.
He's still in trouble.

Isn't still summer at this point in the story?

[Hackulator]

Hit points are the many times in a fight in a movie someone takes a hit that doesn't put them down. Watch any long fight scene between people in any movie and you will see hitpoints in action. What is actually a "hit" in a completely abstract combat is not necessarily a true "hit" in narrative combat. In a sword fight in a movie, when someone makes a massive swing which is blocked but sends the other person reeling back and obviously shaken, thats a hit in D&D. D&D characters are not taking multiple stabs straight through the chest and not dying.

Also some plot armor as others have pointed out.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Hit points are the many times in a fight in a movie someone takes a hit that doesn't put them down. Watch any long fight scene between people in any movie and you will see hitpoints in action. What is actually a "hit" in a completely abstract combat is not necessarily a true "hit" in narrative combat. In a sword fight in a movie, when someone makes a massive swing which is blocked but sends the other person reeling back and obviously shaken, thats a hit in D&D. D&D characters are not taking multiple stabs straight through the chest and not dying.

Also some plot armor as others have pointed out.

Can you quote some rules to back up your claim?

[Tainted_Scholar]

Hit points are the many times in a fight in a movie someone takes a hit that doesn't put them down. Watch any long fight scene between people in any movie and you will see hitpoints in action. What is actually a "hit" in a completely abstract combat is not necessarily a true "hit" in narrative combat. In a sword fight in a movie, when someone makes a massive swing which is blocked but sends the other person reeling back and obviously shaken, thats a hit in D&D. D&D characters are not taking multiple stabs straight through the chest and not dying.


Can you cite that?

Also, how does that work when I'm on fire?

Also also, blocking is AC.

[Mendicant]

1. Class level is how experienced you are, wisdom score is how wise you are.

Right, and "experience" in basket weaving comes from killing goblins, arrives all at once in tranches for some reason, and somehow affects a dozen unrelated things simultaneously.

Level is a meta measure of power, and power shows up in dozens of different forms via dozens of different resources. Similarly, HP is a meta measure of how hard you are to kill, and it is comfortably represented by all kinds of things.

Saying a wisdom score represents being wise is a tautology. Why does being "wise" make you good at hearing things? Just because we define being able to hear stuff real good as being wise but recalling the wisdom of your ancestors is intelligence?

While we're at it, HP as toughness is a tautology too, as far as I'm concerned, because "toughness" doesn't actually seem to describe anything but an arbitrary amount of damage you can take. You keep telling me it's more simple, but it really seems like the "simplicity" comes from a nondescription in drag. If I get stabbed in the face, how does my "toughness" actually function? Does my brain just fuse back together? Do I wander around unaffected as bits of it dribble out? Does the blade just glance off my super-hard forehead?


2. What exactly is that other thing? It can't be turning aside a blow, because then Dex would give you extra HP. It can't be divine favor, because then clerics would get extra HP.

Clerics and Fighters both have more hit points than an NPC commoner, so why the hell not? If you're a fighter your extra hit points come from skill in deflecting a blow. If you're a cleric it comes from divine favor. Honestly, it should come from a mixture of things, like destiny, luck, cussedness, the favor of Moradin, your ancestors, your cigarette case and the power of love.

And "it can't be turning aside a blow because then you'd get HP from Dex" is like saying all those ranks in profession: merchant don't represent any sales skills because you don't get a bonus to your profession check for having a high charisma.

[Elkad]

Isn't still summer at this point in the story?

It's fall. And north of the wall, summer still means cold below 0 at times, and possibly below -20.
If an Other gets involved with supernatural cold, it's even worse.
Lost fingers and ears and such to the cold happens even in the summer for the Watch, and they have the survival ranks and gear to deal with it.

In the prologue, it's unnaturally warm 9 days ride north of the wall. Above freezing by day, below at night.

[Hackulator]

Can you cite that?

Also, how does that work when I'm on fire?

Also also, blocking is AC.

I mean, not I can't cite it as there's no specific explanation for what hp is, clearly this is my belief.

When you're on fire it works the same way people are on fire in movies and then roll and put it out and are ok. "On fire" does not mean "completely engulfed in flames."

Yes, blocking is AC. When someone fails to hit, maybe you blocked, and it was a strong block and you stopped their swing cold or easily slid it around you. A hit might be that aforementioned block where yes, you got your sword in the way but you were put off balance/knocked reeling and clearly got the worst of it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It's fall. And north of the wall, summer still means cold below 0 at times, and possibly below -20.
If an Other gets involved with supernatural cold, it's even worse.
Lost fingers and ears and such to the cold happens even in the summer for the Watch, and they have the survival ranks and gear to deal with it.

Ah, OK.


I mean, not I can't cite it as there's no specific explanation for what hp is, clearly this is my belief.

When you're on fire it works the same way people are on fire in movies and then roll and put it out and are ok. "On fire" does not mean "completely engulfed in flames."

Yes, blocking is AC. When someone fails to hit, maybe you blocked, and it was a strong block and you stopped their swing cold or easily slid it around you. A hit might be that aforementioned block where yes, you got your sword in the way but you were put off balance/knocked reeling and clearly got the worst of it.

Except RAW, HP is being able to turn a serious blow into a less serious one, and toughness.

The other two examples (divine favor and personal power) are preceded by the word "maybe".

Edit:


Right, and "experience" in basket weaving comes from killing goblins, arrives all at once in tranches for some reason, and somehow affects a dozen unrelated things simultaneously.

Level is a meta measure of power, and power shows up in dozens of different forms via dozens of different resources.

Levels represent experience, that's why you get better at basket weaving; it's an abstraction to a degree, but it's assumed that you're practicing your skills and fighting monsters.


Similarly

Saying a wisdom score represents being wise is a tautology. Why does being "wise" make you good at hearing things? Just because we define being able to hear stuff real good as being wise but recalling the wisdom of your ancestors is intelligence?

Sight and hearing being keyed to wisdom probably has to do with perception.

Recalling facts is intelligence.


Clerics and Fighters both have more hit points than an NPC commoner, so why the hell not? If you're a fighter your extra hit points come from skill in deflecting a blow. If you're a cleric it comes from divine favor. Honestly, it should come from a mixture of things, like destiny, luck, cussedness, the favor of Moradin, your ancestors, your cigarette case and the power of love.

There's no RAW support for virtually any of those things.


And "it can't be turning aside a blow because then you'd get HP from Dex" is like saying all those ranks in profession: merchant don't represent any sales skills because you don't get a bonus to your profession check for having a high charisma.

And? Dodging is represented by AC.

There are rules for haggling in 3.5.

[Hackulator]

Ah, OK.



Except RAW, HP is being able to turn a serious blow into a less serious one, and toughness.

The other two examples (divine favor and personal power) are preceded by the word "maybe".

Yes, the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

Like, maybe, just getting your sword in the way of a massive blow that might have cut you in two otherwise.

Taking D&D combat as a literal description of what happens if you were watching the fight is silly. For example, in a sword fight between two skilled fighters, if you think there wouldn't be kicks or punches thrown at times, you're clueless. However, because of the way D&D mechanics work, you would almost never make a random unarmed strike in the middle of a sword fight. That's one of the many examples of why trying to take D&D fight mechanics and use them to directly describe narrative combat is just dumb.

[Mendicant]

Except RAW, HP is being able to turn a serious blow into a less serious one, and toughness.

In other words, your assertion that it's just toughness is already not RAW compliant and you should stop demanding that other people adhere to RAW only while you don't have to.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yes, the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

Like, maybe, just getting your sword in the way of a massive blow that might have cut you in two otherwise.

Taking D&D combat as a literal description of what happens if you were watching the fight is silly. For example, in a sword fight between two skilled fighters, if you think there wouldn't be kicks or punches thrown at times, you're clueless. However, because of the way D&D mechanics work, you would almost never make a random unarmed strike in the middle of a sword fight. That's one of the many examples of why trying to take D&D fight mechanics and use them to directly describe narrative combat is just dumb.

Do I need to mention falling from orbit into a volcano again?

Edit:


In other words, your assertion that it's just toughness is already no RAW compliant and you should stop demanding that other people adhere to RAW only while you don't have to.

I said turning aside blows doesn't make sense, and toughness is sufficient for explaining HP.

You can't turn aside a blow from being submerged in lava; toughness is the only explanation that makes sense there.

If you're tough enough to survive that, why would you need to turn aside blows?

[Tainted_Scholar]

Right, and "experience" in basket weaving comes from killing goblins, arrives all at once in tranches for some reason, and somehow affects a dozen unrelated things simultaneously.

Why does that matter? Yes, D&D characters can get better at non-combat activities through combat, so what.




Saying a wisdom score represents being wise is a tautology. Why does being "wise" make you good at hearing things? Just because we define being able to hear stuff real good as being wise but recalling the wisdom of your ancestors is intelligence?

Again, why does this matter? Being wise makes you good at seeing, so what?


Clerics and Fighters both have more hit points than an NPC commoner, so why the hell not? If you're a fighter your extra hit points come from skill in deflecting a blow. If you're a cleric it comes from divine favor. Honestly, it should come from a mixture of things, like destiny, luck, cussedness, the favor of Moradin, your ancestors, your cigarette case and the power of love.

A Cleric's HP don't change when they fall, and A Fighter doesn't lose HP when he's tied up. You say HP should come from a mixture of things but you haven't proven it.


And "it can't be turning aside a blow because then you'd get HP from Dex" is like saying all those ranks in profession: merchant don't represent any sales skills because you don't get a bonus to your profession check for having a high charisma.

If you were to use diplomacy to convince people to by stuff then that would be sales skill.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Also, being on fire can mean literally standing in a blazing inferno. It does 1D6 damage per round, which is trivial at higher levels.


Edit: It also can mean being on fire; there are rules for putting yourself out.

[Mechalich]

I don't know how I forgot Rogues. I could see modelling a lot of GoT aristocrats as Warrior//Experts--they're professionally trained fighters, but most of them have more skills than 2 + Int.

The aristocrat class gets Medium BaB, Martial Weapon Proficiency, and all Armor Proficiencies and 4+Int skills, it fits pretty good. A lot of the lesser lordlings in Westeros are better trained at combat than commoners, but not particularly skilled otherwise (and their armor is doing a lot of work for them in battle). This point is made in the books when some Lord gets egged on by Cersei into fighting a duel with Bronn and gets his head handed to him. Many of the various lords may start acquiring fighter levels once the War of the Five Kings breaks out - Rob Stark is probably the ideal example. Figure he begins the series as Aristocrat 1 and starts piling on Fighter levels until the Red Wedding - but they may not have any unless they actually went to war earlier in life. They also aren't necessarily that skilled - many of the lords read poorly and have trouble doing more than simple sums. That's why they have Maesters (who make sense as single-class experts). Aristocrat also fits the majority of the important female characters - Caitlyn and Sansa Stark, Cersei, and even Danaerys would all have Aristocrat levels.


I think you're underestimating the number of Fighters training at all the keeps and castles across Westeros. Although I just said I'd stat them up as Warrior//Experts. Maybe give that homebrewed class bonus feats at 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th levels.

I'd interpret all of the various men-at-arms, guardsmen, sell-swords, and so forth as having Warrior levels, not Fighter levels. Only named knights and lords would have fighter levels, and there really aren't that many knights. It's worth noting that the few primarily combatant knights we do see - like Jorah Mormont - are highly capable in combat.


Tap the brakes on "Surely." I could be persuaded on Tywin, but level-appropriate challenges are rather hard to come by in Westeros after the first few levels. My inclination is that the stars of the setting are 4th level. 60 100xp challenges is a lot.

Tywin's in his mid-sixties during the series and began his career in his teens. It's not even two challenges per year, and there have been several rebellions, wars, and other altercations for him to gain XP since. Obviously there's not a lot of ways to gain purely combat-based XP, but there's plenty of skill-based challenges to undertake. My interpretation of E6 is that level 6 characters will be rare, but there will still be a number of them, and there will be 6+ characters who are somewhere in the bonus feat zone as well - those are the true power players.

However, I agree most characters won't be level 6, especially not at the start of the series. Jon Snow surely hits level 6 by the time he gets killed, but he starts at level 1. Out of the 93 characters on this list (http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2017/07/06/game_of_thrones_characters_ranked_from_least_to_mo st_evil.html), I count the following as hitting level 6 prior to dying/current show date: Jon Snow (Fig4/Aris2), Eddard Stark (Fig4/Aris2), Brienne of Tarth (Fig6), Daernerys (Aris6), Barristan Selmy (Fig6+), Brynden the Blackfish (Fig5/Aris1), Jorah Mormont (Fig6), Tormun Giantsbane (Bar6), Varys (Exp6+), Tyrion (Aris3/Exp3), Oberyn Martell (Fig4/Aris2), Three-Eyed Raven (Adep6+), Robert Baratheon (Fig5/Aris1), Olenna Tyrell (Aris6+), Bronn (Fig3/Rog3), Khal Drogo (Bar6), Jaqen H'ghar (Rog6), The Hound (Fig6), Jaime (Fig5/Aris1), Melisandre (Adep6), Stannis (Fig3/Aris3), Pycelle (Exp6), Littlefinger (Exp5/Aris1), Walder Frey (Aris6), Tywin (Aris6+), The Mountain (Fig3/Bar3).

So that's 26. In the whole setting. I waffled on a few (Roose Bolton, Qyburn, etc.), but let's be generous and more or less double that to 50 to allow for lesser known high level characters like Doran Martell and some unknowns. The population of Westeros is probably in the 75-100 million range. So level 6 characters are literally one in a million in Westeros, and many of those characters aren't able to operate to the fullness of their abilities because they are suffering from age-related stat adjustments, permanent diseases, drug addiction, or other issues.


Isn't still summer at this point in the story?

It is. The worldbuilding for north of the wall is a failure, but it is regularly stated that it is above freezing (actually significantly above freezing) for large points of summer since the wall is "weeping," meaning melting, during this period. Also the wildlings raise crops and livestock at least as far north as Craster's Keep, meaning there has to be a growing season even north of the wall capable of supporting grasses. Staging adventures north of the wall means making some real compromises with the environmental worldbuilding. Personally I'd treat the region north of the wall as like being north of the Arctic Circle - there are areas in Canada and Russia that are forested for a while before becoming tundra.

Summer's not necessarily less dangerous though. The environment is less hostile, but animal activity will be significantly greater (bears) and the wildlings will be spending more time out and about herding and hunting.

[Hackulator]

Do I need to mention falling from orbit into a volcano again?

Edit:



I said turning aside blows doesn't make sense, and toughness is sufficient for explaining HP.

You can turn aside a blow from being submerged in lava; toughness is the only explanation that makes sense there.

If you're tough enough to survive that, why would you need to turn aside blows?

The fact that there are mechanics that are either badly designed or limited for balance purposes does not change the game narrative. A person who fell into a volcano (the example given in the SRD for "immersion in lava") could actually land on a mostly hardened but of lava and get to safety without being fully incinerated. This is something that happens in more than one movie. Lets not forget lava can do up to 50d6 damage in that scenario, which WILL kill most people.

Also remember that high level characters also have magic protection most of the time.

A high level character is just that super movie badass, who's fought like 20 dudes, got some stab wounds and maybe a bullet hole or two but is still going. However, he hasn't taken a sword straight through the chest.

[Tainted_Scholar]

The fact that there are mechanics that are either badly designed or limited for balance purposes does not change the game narrative. A person who fell into a volcano (the example given in the SRD for "immersion in lava") could actually land on a mostly hardened but of lava and get to safety without being fully incinerated. This is something that happens in more than one movie. Lets not forget lava can do up to 50d6 damage in that scenario, which WILL kill most people.

Also remember that high level characters also have magic protection most of the time.

A high level character is just that super movie badass, who's fought like 20 dudes, got some stab wounds and maybe a bullet hole or two but is still going. However, he hasn't taken a sword straight through the chest.

1. No this is literally being submerged in lava.

2. He can survive being submerged without any magic.

3. Yes, he can take a sword through the gut, if he's tied up and somebody does coup da grace with a broad sword, then he just got stabbed through the chest.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The fact that there are mechanics that are either badly designed or limited for balance purposes does not change the game narrative. A person who fell into a volcano (the example given in the SRD for "immersion in lava") could actually land on a mostly hardened but of lava and get to safety without being fully incinerated. This is something that happens in more than one movie. Lets not forget lava can do up to 50d6 damage in that scenario, which WILL kill most people.

Also remember that high level characters also have magic protection most of the time.

A high level character is just that super movie badass, who's fought like 20 dudes, got some stab wounds and maybe a bullet hole or two but is still going. However, he hasn't taken a sword straight through the chest.

Why can an action move character survive falling into a volcano, but not survive being stabbed through the chest with a sword?

That makes zero sense.

[Mendicant]

Why does that matter? Yes, D&D characters can get better at non-combat activities through combat, so what.

Again, why does this matter? Being wise makes you good at seeing, so what?

I guess because I'm trying to parse exactly when "it makes sense" is the only acceptable way to explain or describe an abstraction? The goalposts are just shooting around at this point and I'm getting dizzy.


A Cleric's HP don't change when they fall, and A Fighter doesn't lose HP when he's tied up. You say HP should come from a mixture of things but you haven't proven it.

I guess "so what?" is the answer here, right? Or is it like RAW where it's only relevant if it favors your explanation somehow?

I mean, how does your character "turn aside blows"? Well, pretty much however once we've turned to HP, the 2nd most abstract resource in the entire game. Why wouldn't divine favor absorb falling damage or volcano damage? Why can't martial skill still apply when you're tied up? How does luck get taken out of the equation, like, ever?


If you were to use diplomacy to convince people to by stuff then that would be sales skill.
Yes, and if you use a profession:"Literally anything" check, you make money presumably from selling stuff, and your charisma is never seen.

And this is fine, because it's an abstraction. In a game.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I guess because I'm trying to parse exactly when "it makes sense" is the only acceptable way to explain or describe an abstraction? The goalposts are just shooting around at this point and I'm getting dizzy.

We have two explanations that are RAW; one doesn't make sense, one does. That's really I'll I've said.

That and point out how the other explanations people have provided don't make sense either.


I guess "so what?" is the answer here, right? Or is it like RAW where it's only relevant if it favors your explanation somehow?

None of your explanations are RAW, so why does it matter?


I mean, how does your character "turn aside blows"? Well, pretty much however once we've turned to HP, the 2nd most abstract resource in the entire game. Why wouldn't divine favor absorb falling damage or volcano damage? Why can't martial skill still apply when you're tied up? How does luck get taken out of the equation, like, ever?

Luck would let you avoid damage in the first place, Divine Favor makes doesn't work for Ur-Priests who literally steal divine magic.


Yes, and if you use a profession:"Literally anything" check, you make money presumably from selling stuff, and your charisma is never seen.

And this is fine, because it's an abstraction. In a game.

Fine, but that has no bearing on the HP debate.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I just realised something, the PHB states that HP is both physical toughness and turning a serious blow into a less serious one. It's obvious when the former applies (being on fire for example) but I just realised where the latter applies. It applies to damage rolls. When your opponent rolls low on their damage roll it's because you turned a serious blow into a less serious one. But when they roll high, you take the full brunt of the attack. This also explains what exactly damage rolls are. So, in other words both the turning aside a blow and the physical toughness explanations can exist side by side.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I just realised something, the PHB states that HP is both physical toughness and turning a serious blow into a less serious one. It's obvious when the former applies (being on fire for example) but I just realised where the latter applies. It applies to damage rolls. When your opponent rolls low on their damage roll it's because you turned a serious blow into a less serious one. But when they roll high, you take the full brunt of the attack. This also explains what exactly damage rolls are. So, in other words both the turning aside a blow and the physical toughness explanations can exist side by side.

This is good explanation and actually makes sense.

Congrats.

Edit: Can we stop the HP debates now?

Regardless of what HP actually is, D&D characters can survive ridiculous amounts of punishment, far more so than Song of Ice and Fire characters.

So can we finally get back on topic?

[Elkad]

It is. The worldbuilding for north of the wall is a failure, but it is regularly stated that it is above freezing (actually significantly above freezing) for large points of summer since the wall is "weeping," meaning melting, during this period. Also the wildlings raise crops and livestock at least as far north as Craster's Keep, meaning there has to be a growing season even north of the wall capable of supporting grasses. Staging adventures north of the wall means making some real compromises with the environmental worldbuilding. Personally I'd treat the region north of the wall as like being north of the Arctic Circle - there are areas in Canada and Russia that are forested for a while before becoming tundra.

Summer's not necessarily less dangerous though. The environment is less hostile, but animal activity will be significantly greater (bears) and the wildlings will be spending more time out and about herding and hunting.

The weeping wall puts it just above freezing+sun, since they mention frost and light snows at the same time (in the prologue). "Not cold enough to kill men in fur and leather, with fire and shelter at hand". And by their context, it's perhaps slightly out of the ordinary. In the warmest part of the day it might top the 40 degree limit to avoid saves.

In winter when the deep cold comes men die standing watch on the Wall. Which means in fairly short time periods, since they should be checked on by the sergeant every hour or two. And even in summer they have heated shelters atop the wall for the men on watch to visit from time to time.

Does Frostburn cover cold environment damage in more detail?

[Mechalich]

The weeping wall puts it just above freezing+sun, since they mention frost and light snows at the same time (in the prologue). "Not cold enough to kill men in fur and leather, with fire and shelter at hand". And by their context, it's perhaps slightly out of the ordinary. In the warmest part of the day it might top the 40 degree limit to avoid saves.

In winter when the deep cold comes men die standing watch on the Wall. Which means in fairly short time periods, since they should be checked on by the sergeant every hour or two. And even in summer they have heated shelters atop the wall for the men on watch to visit from time to time.


See, this is how the worldbuilding doesn't work. Summer snows that result in accumulation means the surface of the ground never gets above freezing. That means plants don't grow. So there can't be forests north of the wall - but there are. The only solution to allow for 100,000+ wildlings north of the wall is to make it less cold. You actually have to do this throughout the North. 'Summer snows' can't be allowed.

The bits about conditions on top of the wall can be finessed to some degree because the Wall is 700 feet high (Martin is on the record as not having any idea what size structure he had created when they went about making the show) and therefore presumably much colder and exposed to severe winds in a way that doesn't apply at ground level.

[Tainted_Scholar]

The bits about conditions on top of the wall can be finessed to some degree because the Wall is 700 feet high (Martin is on the record as not having any idea what size structure he had created when they went about making the show) and therefore presumably much colder and exposed to severe winds in a way that doesn't apply at ground level.

Wind chill would definitely be a big factor.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The weeping wall puts it just above freezing+sun, since they mention frost and light snows at the same time (in the prologue). "Not cold enough to kill men in fur and leather, with fire and shelter at hand". And by their context, it's perhaps slightly out of the ordinary. In the warmest part of the day it might top the 40 degree limit to avoid saves.

In winter when the deep cold comes men die standing watch on the Wall. Which means in fairly short time periods, since they should be checked on by the sergeant every hour or two. And even in summer they have heated shelters atop the wall for the men on watch to visit from time to time.

Does Frostburn cover cold environment damage in more detail?

Frostburn has rules for frostbite and hypothermia. DC 15 Heal check, fire helps lessen the check by -2 for the former and -5 for the latter.

Other than that, I couldn't find much else related to cold environment damage.

Worth noting that Endure Elements protects the user as long as it's above -50 degrees Fahrenheit.

[Coidzor]

Question: Is there anything to support Wildlings trying to kill other people on sight in all cases if they're not part of the same band or somehow co-opted by someone like Mance Rayder?

We know that they try to kill the men of the Nights Watch because they're traditional enemies, but how big is the typical group of Wildlings going around when they're not gathered up into an army or living in a settlement?

Are they really going around with enough numbers to feel comfortable engaging with 6 creatures, some of which may not even look human, as in the case of the Dragonborn Warforged?

Yes, they're dangerous and all, but are they really the endless zerg rush that people have treated them as in the thread so far? Somehow some level of trade happens and there was some kind of framework that allowed Mance Rayder to build up the forces that he did.


Point the First: Another way to look at this is that D&D lava isn't as dangerous as real-world lava.

Point the SEcond: A 6th level character, PC or NPC, is approaching superhero territory in a lot of ways. A 6th level character has somehow ground through 100 encounters yielding 100 xp each, or the equivalent. I'm not that surprised that this guy can survive being dipped in lava, or can ride out a nuclear blast inside a refrigerator, or can drive a car off of a ship into a helicopter and jump to safety. That's the kind of thing 6th level characters DO.

It isn't as dangerous, but it is as hot and will otherwise behave in accordance with our world's physics except where it intersects with D&D rules. Try not to think about it.

We're in agreement about superhero territory, yeah.



And you know that Reserve Feats are going to be the bread & butter of this group after they hit the level 6 cap.

That's a good point. Fiery Burst and decent things to prevent being swamped and grappled = bye-bye westerosi undead.

Refresh my memory, do the white walkers care about fire at all?



2. No they couldn't have, they wouldn't get enough XP from doing that.

You can, however, level up to level 6 and, IIRC, get a fair number of feats, just from killing rats. 38 XP for an individual rat, 75 for a pair.

You can certainly kill housecats and get up to level 6. 75 XP per cat. And at level 6, one can still get 75 XP per cat. It takes 5 additional feats to count as effectively 7th level for XP, and thus unable to get XP from rats or cats or anything below CR 1.

5K XP per additional feat. Each 5 additional feats = +1 effective level(or CR). After 20 additional feats, no more effective level increase, but no actual cap on number of feats that one can acquire. (Max effective level 10)

(to level from Rats fought individually)
27 to get from 1 to 2.
79 to get from 1 to 3. 52 from 2 to 3.
158 to get from 1 to 4. 79 to get from 3 to 4.
264 to get from 1 to 5. 106 to get from 4 to 5.
395 to get from 1 to 6. 131 to get from 5 to 6.

132 per feat for 5 feats.

658 to get 5 additional feats and count as 7th level and thus unable to get XP from rats.

1053 rats total to get from level 1 to level 6 and get those 5 additional feats.

After a character gets an effective level of 10, they can only get XP from CR 3 things or higher.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Question: Is there anything to support Wildlings trying to kill other people on sight in all cases if they're not part of the same band or somehow co-opted by someone like Mance Rayder?

We know that they try to kill the men of the Nights Watch because they're traditional enemies, but how big is the typical group of Wildlings going around when they're not gathered up into an army or living in a settlement?

Are they really going around with enough numbers to feel comfortable engaging with 6 creatures, some of which may not even look human, as in the case of the Dragonborn Warforged?

Yes, they're dangerous and all, but are they really the endless zerg rush that people have treated them as in the thread so far? Somehow some level of trade happens and there was some kind of framework that allowed Mance Rayder to build up the forces that he did.

This is good point, especially when Diplomacy and Bluff are involved.

[Mechalich]

Question: Is there anything to support Wildlings trying to kill other people on sight in all cases if they're not part of the same band or somehow co-opted by someone like Mance Rayder?

We know that they try to kill the men of the Nights Watch because they're traditional enemies, but how big is the typical group of Wildlings going around when they're not gathered up into an army or living in a settlement?

Are they really going around with enough numbers to feel comfortable engaging with 6 creatures, some of which may not even look human, as in the case of the Dragonborn Warforged?

Yes, they're dangerous and all, but are they really the endless zerg rush that people have treated them as in the thread so far? Somehow some level of trade happens and there was some kind of framework that allowed Mance Rayder to build up the forces that he did.

The wildlings represent a large group of small tribal populations living in an arctic environment. There are many ethnic groups in competition and in many cases unable to communicate because they do not share a language (Mance mentions unifying 100 clans and tribes). The situation is similar to the indigenous populations of Northern Canada or Siberia - with the settled populations of the North in the Gift representing something like the settled population around Lake Baikal. As such the Wildlings will have small communities spread across a vast geographic territory with extremely low population density. The area north of the Wall is pretty big, something like 600,000 sq km - or roughly the size of Ukraine. If there are 200,000 people living north of the Wall - meaning Mance Rayder convinced fully half the population to join his march/crusade - then there's only 1 person per 3 square kilometers. You could presumably march for weeks without encountering anyone (especially if you're using Create Water and don't need to stick to rivers that draw people and game).

Most wildling populations are probably semi-nomadic, moving about in tribal groups of a few dozen to a few hundred or so, plus animals. The numbers of fighting men (and occasional woman) would be small in a single group. In a given group of one hundred adults you probably add 30-40 children and 5-15 elders of limited combat capability. Wildlings are still going to be mostly commoners (80-90%) but their harsh lifestyle means many will have a few levels. Maybe 10% experts, and 9% warriors, with only maybe 1% being barbarians. They will generally lack any real armor and many won't have metal weapons, being stuck fighting with stone or bone (the Thenns after all, were notably advanced for forging bronze). Bottom Line: your average wildling is probably not much more dangerous than the average goblin.

Whether they'd be willing to attack a 4-6 person party though, that depends. The party is presumably carrying metal weapons and in the case of a cleric, armor, plus additional metal gear that all represents potentially vast wealth in the wildling economy, so there's a strong incentive to attack these foreigners who may not speak the language - I'm assuming the characters speak the common tongue of Westeros, not any bizarre Wildling languages - if they feel they have a good chance of winning.

Characters playing something obviously nonhuman (elves and lesser planetouched and some others can reasonably pass for funny humans) are going to have some different experiences. Wildlings are aware of the Others and fear them and are likely to associate something truly exotic with that enemy. So I doubt they would attack a dragonborn or warforged unless they had overwhelming force. On the other hand - there's no way the Night's Watch is letting any dragonborn through to Castle Black. They're just going to shoot arrows at you from the top of the wall without asking questions.

[Sapreaver]

Dragon robots... I like it!
Yup. They will definitely make it to the wall. And with the bard and paladin acting as party faces they should be able to diplomacy themselves through it. You know something something the old gods sent us something something we're here to help face whats to come something something

[Knaight]

"HP as plot armor" answers every single objection you've raised, doesn't create an endlessly nested series of new questions, and is dead simple as an explanation. It also actually lets you model ASoIaF with low-level DnD.
Plot-armor-HP-D&D makes a better model for ASoIaF than Meat-HP-D&D. It's still a terrible model.


Also also, blocking is AC.
This is pretty questionable - not least because blocking is a skill, and better combatants should thus be better at blocking. AC doesn't take weapon skill into account at all, you don't lose AC when unarmed, and it just generally doesn't hold up as representative of blocking. There's not really anything else that does either, with HP working terribly but still better than the other options.

[Tainted_Scholar]

This is pretty questionable - not least because blocking is a skill, and better combatants should thus be better at blocking. AC doesn't take weapon skill into account at all, you don't lose AC when unarmed, and it just generally doesn't hold up as representative of blocking. There's not really anything else that does either, with HP working terribly but still better than the other options.

I was getting the idea that blocking is represented by AC from shields.

[exelsisxax]

I was getting the idea that blocking is represented by AC from shields.

Correct. Parrying is (very poorly) represented by combat expertise and fighting defensively.

[johnbragg]

I was getting the idea that blocking is represented by AC from shields.

Then you'd expect AC-from-shield to scale with prowess in battle. (I've got a homebrewed feat for that, but I don't think WOTC does.)

HP-as-plot armor fits with the idea that the grizzled veteran has the stamina to parry and counter and block the first N well-aimed blows, but by N+1 (when he's down to his last hit points) he no longer has the stamina to block in time, and takes it on the chin (metaphorically.) Mix liberally with he-has-the-stamina-to-duck-and-move, so that the greataxe slices a nasty gash in his arm rather than taking off the top of his skull.

I think of character-power as like mass, and the mechanics as like gravity. In a fantasy universe, mind over matter is the order of the day. Caster do their mind-over-matter through spell formulas, everyone does it through saving throws, HP, SR, DR, etc.

So to my way of thinking, that Ser Barristan Selmy is regarded as the finest knight in the Seven Kingdoms slots him in at 6th level, and overrides book-text where he made 8 attacks in 6 seconds but got dropped by a single arrow. That didn't happen, but ASOIF is not as searchable as the SRD + illegally scanned PDFs so I'm confident that there is book-text that would contradict statting him at 6th level. As you said toward the beginning, GOT characters make way more than 1-2 attacks every 6-second round, but are much more fragile than D&D characters.

That tension gets resolved if you go with HP-as-narrative-mass, and say that HP damage is often stamina-damage rather than meat-wounds. That lets you slot in Westerosi soldiers as mid-level characters, rather than making them complete glass-cannons, mechanically.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Then you'd expect AC-from-shield to scale with prowess in battle. (I've got a homebrewed feat for that, but I don't think WOTC does.)

HP-as-plot armor fits with the idea that the grizzled veteran has the stamina to parry and counter and block the first N well-aimed blows, but by N+1 (when he's down to his last hit points) he no longer has the stamina to block in time, and takes it on the chin (metaphorically.) Mix liberally with he-has-the-stamina-to-duck-and-move, so that the greataxe slices a nasty gash in his arm rather than taking off the top of his skull.

I think of character-power as like mass, and the mechanics as like gravity. In a fantasy universe, mind over matter is the order of the day. Caster do their mind-over-matter through spell formulas, everyone does it through saving throws, HP, SR, DR, etc.

So to my way of thinking, that Ser Barristan Selmy is regarded as the finest knight in the Seven Kingdoms slots him in at 6th level, and overrides book-text where he made 8 attacks in 6 seconds but got dropped by a single arrow. That didn't happen, but ASOIF is not as searchable as the SRD + illegally scanned PDFs so I'm confident that there is book-text that would contradict statting him at 6th level. As you said toward the beginning, GOT characters make way more than 1-2 attacks every 6-second round, but are much more fragile than D&D characters.

That tension gets resolved if you go with HP-as-narrative-mass, and say that HP damage is often stamina-damage rather than meat-wounds. That lets you slot in Westerosi soldiers as mid-level characters, rather than making them complete glass-cannons, mechanically.

Would't it be easier to just treat Westeros characters as they are in the book, and only give them D&D stats when absolutely necessary?

[Nifft]

Then you'd expect AC-from-shield to scale with prowess in battle. (I've got a homebrewed feat for that, but I don't think WOTC does.)

Shield Specialization is basically an inverse Weapon Focus.

Shield Ward is another shield-based defensive prowess-ish training feat.

The AC bonus from one specific type of shield does increase with one very specific type of battle prowess, and that's the shield spell increasing in AC with progress in the Abjurant Champion PrC.

The obvious lesson here is that mundane characters don't have any genuine battle prowess.

[johnbragg]

Would't it be easier to just treat Westeros characters as they are in the book, and only give them D&D stats when absolutely necessary?

I'm not sure exactly what "treat Westeros characters as they are in the book" means, exactly. IF they're interacting with the PCs, they're doing it by 3.5 rules, so how we translate them to 3.5 matters.

Say the Bard tries to Bluff Lord Karstark. If we've decided that 40-ish Lords are most likely, say, 3rd level Warrior//Experts, it's not that much work to mock up a Sense Motive score for the Bard to roll against. Sense Motive's a pretty good skill for a feudal lord to have, so 6 ranks, let's say +1 for Wisdom (age modifier), DC 17. And done.

If we just "treat Westeros characters as they are in the book", then the DM has to
A. Scan through http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rickard_Karstark
B. Darned if I know, actually.

(Yes you could just roleplay it. I played 2nd edition, sonny.)



The obvious lesson here is that mundane characters don't have any genuine battle prowess.

But the discovery here, with HP-as-stamina, is that martial characters actually DO have a little more battle prowess than their spellcasting cousins. They can fight somewhat longer.

Yay?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm not sure exactly what "treat Westeros characters as they are in the book" means, exactly. IF they're interacting with the PCs, they're doing it by 3.5 rules, so how we translate them to 3.5 matters.

Say the Bard tries to Bluff Lord Karstark. If we've decided that 40-ish Lords are most likely, say, 3rd level Warrior//Experts, it's not that much work to mock up a Sense Motive score for the Bard to roll against. Sense Motive's a pretty good skill for a feudal lord to have, so 6 ranks, let's say +1 for Wisdom (age modifier), DC 17. And done.

If we just "treat Westeros characters as they are in the book", then the DM has to
A. Scan through http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rickard_Karstark
B. Darned if I know, actually.

(Yes you could just roleplay it. I played 2nd edition, sonny.)

I was mostly talking about, being stabbed kills them, for things like skills, we will have to be D&D rules.

Also, 3rd level seems a bit high.

[johnbragg]

I was mostly talking about, being stabbed kills them, for things like skills, we will have to be D&D rules.

Well, there are characters in the books who take a wound but survive. The author gets to decide that however he wants, generally in an RPG there are numbers and math that determine that (or at least serve as a guide that the DM can over-ride.)

I don't think it's a good reflection of the books, or a good game, to declare that D&D characters automatically kill GOT characters on a successful hit.

Also, if you were to stat out any random Lord who was a veteran of Robert's Rebellion, if 3rd level is too high that leaves 1st and 2nd. Would you give them credit for 2nd level?

[Tainted_Scholar]

Well, there are characters in the books who take a wound but survive. The author gets to decide that however he wants, generally in an RPG there are numbers and math that determine that (or at least serve as a guide that the DM can over-ride.)

I don't think it's a good reflection of the books, or a good game, to declare that D&D characters automatically kill GOT characters on a successful hit.

Also, if you were to stat out any random Lord who was a veteran of Robert's Rebellion, if 3rd level is too high that leaves 1st and 2nd. Would you give them credit for 2nd level?

Most veterans would be 1st level warriors, the more skilled ones would be 2nd level.

[johnbragg]

Most veterans would be 1st level warriors, the more skilled ones would be 2nd level.

OK. It sounds like you're putting Karstark at 1st and Ned Stark at 2nd. I disagree, I think you're underestimating the experience from training and from fighting in the various wars of Westeros, but it's your game.

[Tainted_Scholar]

OK. It sounds like you're putting Karstark at 1st and Ned Stark at 2nd. I disagree, I think you're underestimating the experience from training and from fighting in the various wars of Westeros, but it's your game.

I would like to point out that most soldiers aren't going to be doing that much fighting. Most of the people who served have only killed a hand full of men at most. An ace pilot in WW1 was somebody who shot down 5 planes for example.

[Nifft]

I would like to point out that most soldiers aren't going to be doing that much fighting. Most of the people who served have only killed a hand full of men at most. An ace pilot in WW1 was somebody who shot down 5 planes for example.

PCs get XP for overcoming threats because the game wants to incentivize PC-like behaviors in PCs.

There is NOTHING in the rules to say that NPCs gain levels from PC-like behaviors.

That said, if you want all the NPCs to have low meatpoints, it's your game.

[johnbragg]

I would like to point out that most soldiers aren't going to be doing that much fighting. Most of the people who served have only killed a hand full of men at most. An ace pilot in WW1 was somebody who shot down 5 planes for example.

I simplify XP a bit in my games, and count 10 Average encounters as a level (rather than the 13 1/3 the book indicates). So if you fought in 10 battles, and were at risk of major bodily harm, I'd score that as 2nd level even if you only killed 2 guys and wounded 3 more who lived to fight again.

And training should count for something, or there are a lot of martial arts studios stealing money.

EDIT: Heck, I could be convinced that getting up in a World War I era biplane at all and living through the landing would be worth 100 xp.

[Tainted_Scholar]

And training should count for something, or there are a lot of martial arts studios stealing money.

The training is what makes them a Warrior class in the first place.

[Mechalich]

Battles, non-lethal but still serious combats with reputation at stake (tourneys), and all the various skill challenges inherent in being a ruler add up. Standard D&D is full of high level commoners - a big city will have several of 10th level. They obviously didn't get there by fighting.

It is quite reasonable to imagine Westeros as an extremely low-magic E6 setting, and if you're tossing D&D characters in that is absolutely what you should do. A party of level 6 martials would still be powerful in that setting. The Hound, The Mountain, Tormund, and Grey Worm in a party together is devastation. Remember the scene in Yunkai where Jorah, Dario, and Grey Worm fought through like forty guards by themselves? That's totally reasonable as a trio of level 5-6 dudes up against a bunch of level 1-2 opponents. A party of level 6 full-casters, well, break out the steamroller.

A E6 conception of Westeros that has 1 level 6 character per one million people seems reasonable to me. I mean, look at the population breakdown.

Say there's 100 million people in Westeros (this is probably high, but it's a nice round number).

- 98 million are Commoners. Figure 95 million are level 1, 2.75 million level 2, 225,000 level level 3, 24,000 level 4, 900 level 5, and 100 level 6.
- 1 million are Experts. 900,000 level 1, 90,000 level 2, 9,000 level 3, 900 level 4, 90 level 5, and 10 level 6.
- 700,000 are Warriors. 600,000 level 1, 90,000 level 2, 9,000 level 3, 900 level 4, 90 level 5, and 10 level 6.
- 300,000 are all other classes, Aristocrats, Adepts, and all PC classes, including multi-class characters. 270,000 level 1, 27,000 level 2, 2,700 level 3, 270 level 4, 15 level 5, 15 level 6.

Keep in mind the geographic distribution too - the most high-level people you ever get in the same room is a Small Council meeting. That's maybe 8 level 5-6 characters, mostly with NPC class levels and several of whom are complete non-combatants and/or suffering serious age-related penalties (Pycelle is level 6, he's also a struggling with dementia and serious physical ailments). An E6 party of full casters is a whirlwind of power as it moves through this world.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Battles, non-lethal but still serious combats with reputation at stake (tourneys), and all the various skill challenges inherent in being a ruler add up. Standard D&D is full of high level commoners - a big city will have several of 10th level. They obviously didn't get there by fighting.

It is quite reasonable to imagine Westeros as an extremely low-magic E6 setting, and if you're tossing D&D characters in that is absolutely what you should do. A party of level 6 martials would still be powerful in that setting. The Hound, The Mountain, Tormund, and Grey Worm in a party together is devastation. Remember the scene in Yunkai where Jorah, Dario, and Grey Worm fought through like forty guards by themselves? That's totally reasonable as a trio of level 5-6 dudes up against a bunch of level 1-2 opponents. A party of level 6 full-casters, well, break out the steamroller.

A E6 conception of Westeros that has 1 level 6 character per one million people seems reasonable to me. I mean, look at the population breakdown.

Say there's 100 million people in Westeros (this is probably high, but it's a nice round number).

- 98 million are Commoners. Figure 95 million are level 1, 2.75 million level 2, 225,000 level level 3, 24,000 level 4, 900 level 5, and 100 level 6.
- 1 million are Experts. 900,000 level 1, 90,000 level 2, 9,000 level 3, 900 level 4, 90 level 5, and 10 level 6.
- 700,000 are Warriors. 600,000 level 1, 90,000 level 2, 9,000 level 3, 900 level 4, 90 level 5, and 10 level 6.
- 300,000 are all other classes, Aristocrats, Adepts, and all PC classes, including multi-class characters. 270,000 level 1, 27,000 level 2, 2,700 level 3, 270 level 4, 15 level 5, 15 level 6.

Keep in mind the geographic distribution too - the most high-level people you ever get in the same room is a Small Council meeting. That's maybe 8 level 5-6 characters, mostly with NPC class levels and several of whom are complete non-combatants and/or suffering serious age-related penalties (Pycelle is level 6, he's also a struggling with dementia and serious physical ailments). An E6 party of full casters is a whirlwind of power as it moves through this world.

The people of Song of Ice and Fire mostly seem to be ordinary, anyone 6th level or higher is superhuman.

[Coidzor]

What kind of armors are we looking at for the Westorosi?

Bronze Ringmail for the Thenns? Scale? Studded Leather?

Plate for the wealthy knights and splint or banded for the poorer ones?

What for the mercenaries and men at arms?

Wildlings mostly a mix of unarmored, passed, leather, and maybe hide?

[ColorBlindNinja]

What kind of armors are we looking at for the Westorosi?

Bronze Ringmail for the Thenns? Scale? Studded Leather?

Plate for the wealthy knights and splint or banded for the poorer ones?

What for the mercenaries and men at arms?

Wildlings mostly a mix of unarmored, passed, leather, and maybe hide?

That sounds right to me, leather armor seems likely for mercenaries and men at arms.

Stuff like chain mail and full plate were expensive, if I recall.

A good suit of armor could last generations, passed down from father to son.

[Knaight]

I'm not sure exactly what "treat Westeros characters as they are in the book" means, exactly. IF they're interacting with the PCs, they're doing it by 3.5 rules, so how we translate them to 3.5 matters.
That's one option. The other option is to figure out what the 3.5 mechanics mean, and translate the 3.5 characters into concepts that can interact non-mechanically with the Westeros characters.


The people of Song of Ice and Fire mostly seem to be ordinary, anyone 6th level or higher is superhuman.
Anyone 6th level or higher is superhuman in a few very specific ways (mostly sheer toughness complements of HP bloat). In other ways they're downright unimpressive, due to some of the choices for system scaling and the way the action economy was built.

[Tainted_Scholar]

That's one option. The other option is to figure out what the 3.5 mechanics mean, and translate the 3.5 characters into concepts that can interact non-mechanically with the Westeros characters.

I think that would be far easier than translating the Westerosi to 3.5.

[ColorBlindNinja]

That's one option. The other option is to figure out what the 3.5 mechanics mean, and translate the 3.5 characters into concepts that can interact non-mechanically with the Westeros characters.

I think that'll just start a ton of arguments.

If you really want too, I wish you luck.


Anyone 6th level or higher is superhuman in a few very specific ways (mostly sheer toughness complements of HP bloat). In other ways they're downright unimpressive, due to some of the choices for system scaling and the way the action economy was built.

In what way?

[Coidzor]

I think that'll just start a ton of arguments.

If you really want too, I wish you luck.



In what way?

AC comes to mind. I can't think of a way to scale AC very well in e6, beyond farming XP to get Improved Natural Armor several times after taking a race with racial NA.

I suppose there are a few templates with would work there.

Hmm.

Was there much said about whether Hodot would have been murdered for his size in different circumstances than the ones he was raised in?

[ColorBlindNinja]

AC comes to mind. I can't think of a way to scale AC very well in e6, beyond farming XP to get Improved Natural Armor several times after taking a race with racial NA.

I suppose there are a few templates with would work there.

Hmm.

There is an AC boosting by level up variant in UA.

Other than that and magic items, DEX boosts are your best bet.


Was there much said about whether Hodot would have been murdered for his size in different circumstances than the ones he was raised in?

I don't recall.

[johnbragg]

That's one option. The other option is to figure out what the 3.5 mechanics mean, and translate the 3.5 characters into concepts that can interact non-mechanically with the Westeros characters.

I'm not sure what the bolded part means, except "roleplaying".

The non-bolded part is a massive undertaking. We're having a long argument about the meaning of Hit Points, which there is at least some RAW attempt to explain how it reflects realism. Good luck with Saving Throws, never mind flawed features like class skill lists, scaling vs non-scaling Feats,

PEople have tried to abandon the D&D framework and rebuild. Mutants & Masterminds is well regarded. Most others, not so much.


Anyone 6th level or higher is superhuman in a few very specific ways (mostly sheer toughness complements of HP bloat). In other ways they're downright unimpressive, due to some of the choices for system scaling and the way the action economy was built.

By what standard is a 6th level Expert or Warrior unimpressive?


I think that would be far easier than translating the Westerosi to 3.5.

I completely disagree.

[Mechalich]

By what standard is a 6th level Expert or Warrior unimpressive?


A 6th level warrior has fairly unimpressive skills. They have no Int bonus (and in Westeros are actually at least even odds to be rocking Int 8 and so have a minus) so they have 18 skill points total. Assuming they are a mounted warrior they max ride, which takes fully half their skill points. So they have 2 ranks in Climb, Handle Animal, Jump, and Intimidate. An infantryman or Iron Islander maybe switches some ride ranks to swim. They are unlikely to have much in the way of cross-class skills at all. They have three feats, one is probably Weapon Focus for longsword or spear (or Point Blank Shot for archers). Another is almost certainly Endurance - essential for soldiers on the march with crummy medieval rations. That leaves one feat for flavor or for a combat maneuver (with Mounted Combat being the most common choice). Hardly overwhelming.

Without any additional feats, a Level 6 Westerosi Warrior has an attack of +9/+3 (BaB +6, 14 Str, +1 Weapon Focus), does a glorious 1d8+2 (non-magical longsword plus strength) damage per attack, and can't power attack. Granted that mounted with a lance and charging they're doing considerably better (+11, 2d8+4), but that's not going to happen all the time and there are counters for that. They have 36 hp (assuming 12 Con) and an AC of 18 (10+6 (Banded Mail) +2 (Heavy Wooden Shield). Roughly this a slightly tougher but significantly less damaging Ogre.

A 6th level Expert is just a big pile of Skill Points. They have 8 skills at 9 ranks, figure an +1 or +2 for ability scores, and +2-4 for feats and synergy bonuses. Their best skill - say Maester Pycelle's Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) is probably +16. Sure, that's nice, but it's hardly superhuman.


Anyone 6th level or higher is superhuman in a few very specific ways (mostly sheer toughness complements of HP bloat).

It's worth noting that the HP issue is easily corrected if one cares to. You can easily rule that Westerosi characters simply do not gain HP when they level up, but retain all other gains. That way the character with the human with the most HP in Westeros is the Mountain with 16 (assuming he took his first level as a barbarian and has an 18 Con).

[johnbragg]

A 6th level warrior has fairly unimpressive skills.

Compared to who? Other 6th level characters? Higher level characters? Sure. (By the way, you're shorting them a feat--they get a bonus feat at 1st level for being Human. So they get to Power Attack.)


They have no Int bonus (and in Westeros are actually at least even odds to be rocking Int 8 and so have a minus) so they have 18 skill points total. Assuming they are a mounted warrior they max ride, which takes fully half their skill points. So they have 2 ranks in Climb, Handle Animal, Jump, and Intimidate. An infantryman or Iron Islander maybe switches some ride ranks to swim. They are unlikely to have much in the way of cross-class skills at all. They have three feats, one is probably Weapon Focus for longsword or spear (or Point Blank Shot for archers). Another is almost certainly Endurance - essential for soldiers on the march with crummy medieval rations. That leaves one feat for flavor or for a combat maneuver (with Mounted Combat being the most common choice). Hardly overwhelming.

Without any additional feats, a Level 6 Westerosi Warrior has an attack of +9/+3 (BaB +6, 14 Str, +1 Weapon Focus), does a glorious 1d8+2 (non-magical longsword plus strength) damage per attack, and can't power attack. Granted that mounted with a lance and charging they're doing considerably better (+11, 2d8+4), but that's not going to happen all the time and there are counters for that. They have 36 hp (assuming 12 Con) and an AC of 18 (10+6 (Banded Mail) +2 (Heavy Wooden Shield). Roughly this a slightly tougher but significantly less damaging Ogre.

You shorted them a feat for being Human. If it's Power Attack, their first attack is at +3 doing d8 + 8 damage, one-shotting a first-level opponent, and a lot of second-level opponents.

He could also drop Weapon Focus and go with Trample, or with Improved Initiative, or he could take one of the skill-boosting feats.

Also, consider your statement "roughly this is an Ogre." So a 6th level NPC-class warrior is comparable to--a freaking ogre. An ogre is pretty overwhelming.


A 6th level Expert is just a big pile of Skill Points. They have 8 skills at 9 ranks, figure an +1 or +2 for ability scores, and +2-4 for feats and synergy bonuses. Their best skill - say Maester Pycelle's Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) is probably +16. Sure, that's nice, but it's hardly superhuman.

It's the outer limits of human ability. Using jump DCs, a DC 26 26 foot jump puts you at #10 in world at the 2016 the Olympics. That's if he's Taking 10. Not superhuman, just the outer limits of human capability. Oh and by the way he's also that awesome at a half-dozen other things too.


It's worth noting that the HP issue is easily corrected if one cares to. You can easily rule that Westerosi characters simply do not gain HP when they level up, but retain all other gains. That way the character with the human with the most HP in Westeros is the Mountain with 16 (assuming he took his first level as a barbarian and has an 18 Con).

I don't understand the mentality that D&D characters must automatically one-shot GoT characters.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I don't understand the mentality that D&D characters must automatically one-shot GoT characters.

Well, a 6 lvl. Human Barbarian will on average deal 23 damage when power attacking, this is more damage than a Heavy Catapult on average. So, I'm pretty sure that'll kill any person from Westeros.

[Hackulator]

Well, a 6 lvl. Human Barbarian will on average deal 23 damage when power attacking, this is more damage than a Heavy Catapult on average. So, I'm pretty sure that'll kill any person from Westeros.

Of course, on the flip side, since people in Westeros can repeatedly stab you with a knife quickly, Westeros people can attack 6 times in a round at level 1.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Of course, on the flip side, since people in Westeros can repeatedly stab you with a knife quickly, Westeros people can attack 6 times in a round at level 1.

How many times do I have to say that's an abstraction?

If we're using D&D rules, they only get one attack per round.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Of course, on the flip side, since people in Westeros can repeatedly stab you with a knife quickly, Westeros people can attack 6 times in a round at level 1.

I've already gone over this. In D&D a person is doing a lot during combat, they're dodging attacks or getting hit, they're trying to hit they're opponent, they're moving, they're watching their surroundings, and more. The reason they don't get a ton of attacks per round is because they're kind of busy.

Honestly, D&D should have rules for making additional attacks per round, but with penalties like D20 Cthulhu. Logically, if somebody is trying to erratically shank someone they won't have very good aim.

[Hackulator]

How many times do I have to say that's an abstraction?

If we're using D&D rules, they only get one attack per round.

At that point then, you're basically saying that people in Westeros can ONLY do things that fit into a mechanics system they're not designed to fit into. If those are the rules, of course the adventurers can win. That's not even an interesting conversation. That's like saying a bunch of D&D players characters can beat the characters of people who don't know ANY of the rules.

Combat is only an abstraction in your arguments when its good for you. When you want to argue the other side, you insist that nuclear bombs only do 16d8 damage so they don't do much. You make it an abstraction when an abstraction supports your arguments and a simulation when a simulation supports your arguments.

[johnbragg]

Well, a 6 lvl. Human Barbarian will on average deal 23 damage when power attacking, this is more damage than a Heavy Catapult on average. So, I'm pretty sure that'll kill any person from Westeros.

It's not that a 6th level D&D character can one-shot anyone in Westeros. It's that a a 1st level D&D martial can reliably one-shot anyone in WEsteros. A 1st level D&D martial with the elite array should be power attacking with a greatsword for d12+6. Anyone you model as a 1st level warrior is dead. And you're modeling veterans of Robert's Rebellion as mostly 1st level warriors. Lord Karstark should be harder to kill than his teenage son who has never seen a real battle.

[Tainted_Scholar]

At that point then, you're basically saying that people in Westeros can ONLY do things that fit into a mechanics system they're not designed to fit into. If those are the rules, of course the adventurers can win. That's not even an interesting conversation. That's like saying a bunch of D&D players characters can beat the characters of people who don't know ANY of the rules.

Combat is only an abstraction in your arguments when its good for you. When you want to argue the other side, you insist that nuclear bombs only do 16d8 damage so they don't do much. You make it an abstraction when an abstraction supports your arguments and a simulation when a simulation supports your arguments.

See my reply above.

[johnbragg]

How many times do I have to say that's an abstraction?

If we're using D&D rules, they only get one attack per round.

IF we're using D&D rules, they get a reasonable amount of hit points.

[ColorBlindNinja]

IF we're using D&D rules, they get a reasonable amount of hit points.

Why? Why would they have more than 3 or so HP?

[Tainted_Scholar]

It's not that a 6th level D&D character can one-shot anyone in Westeros. It's that a a 1st level D&D martial can reliably one-shot anyone in WEsteros. A 1st level D&D martial with the elite array should be power attacking with a greatsword for d12+6. Anyone you model as a 1st level warrior is dead. And you're modeling veterans of Robert's Rebellion as mostly 1st level warriors. Lord Karstark should be harder to kill than his teenage son who has never seen a real battle.

13 Damage on average, that's more damage than a shotgun on average. So it should kill Lord Karstark.

[ColorBlindNinja]

At that point then, you're basically saying that people in Westeros can ONLY do things that fit into a mechanics system they're not designed to fit into. If those are the rules, of course the adventurers can win. That's not even an interesting conversation. That's like saying a bunch of D&D players characters can beat the characters of people who don't know ANY of the rules.

Combat is only an abstraction in your arguments when its good for you. When you want to argue the other side, you insist that nuclear bombs only do 16d8 damage so they don't do much. You make it an abstraction when an abstraction supports your arguments and a simulation when a simulation supports your arguments.

Westeros characters need some rules for interaction, but in D&D only characters with 6HD or more get multiple attacks.

If they don't have that many HD, they don't get to attack multiple times.

Edit: We can try to run Westeros characters without rules, but it won't really change much.

Edit 2: Scratch that, how can we run this without using rules for Westeros characters?

[johnbragg]

Why? Why would they have more than 3 or so HP?
If you're using d&d abstractions to say "they can't attack more than once a round, you should be consistent and use d&d abstractions like HP.

If you're not using D&D mechanics, then they should get to attack once a second or whatever, and don't bother with hp--they die if you hit them.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If you're using d&d abstractions to say "they can't attack more than once a round, you should be consistent and use d&d abstractions like HP.

If you're not using D&D mechanics, then they should get to attack once a second or whatever, and don't bother with hp--they die if you hit them.

Whatever, I doubt it will change much.

How do we determine how much damage they'll deal?

[Tainted_Scholar]

If you're using d&d abstractions to say "they can't attack more than once a round, you should be consistent and use d&d abstractions like HP.

If you're not using D&D mechanics, then they should get to attack once a second or whatever, and don't bother with hp--they die if you hit them.

If we want to model them in D&D they should be as close to the book characters as possible, that means low HP. However they still have to follow D&D rules since we're modeling them in D&D, which means one attack per round.

Personally, I wouldn't try to model them in D&D.

[johnbragg]

13 Damage on average, that's more damage than a shotgun on average. So it should kill Lord Karstark.
D&D is bad at guns.

If you think it's reasonable that a 1st level PC should kill anything he hits, go ahead.

[johnbragg]

Whatever, I doubt it will change much.

How do we determine how much damage they'll deal?

Well , in the books anyone who's hit is probably dead or at least out of that fight.

[Tainted_Scholar]

D&D is bad at guns.

Why is D&D bad at guns?