3.5 Khepri the H.I.V.E Queen Build?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I've heard AvatarVecna mention this build a few times, but I don't know what it is.

As far as I can tell, it sounds like Khepri takes 10 levels in Vermin Lord and then becomes a Hive Mind.

I'm a bit fuzzy on the specifics, and my Google-Fu has failed me. :smallfrown:

If anyone could elaborate on this build, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

[OldTrees1]

Book of Vile Darkness pg 34 details the mechanics of a hivemind.

The basis of the build is using Verminlord to create a hivemind with a ridiculously high spellcasting level.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Book of Vile Darkness pg 34 details the mechanics of a hivemind.

The basis of the build is using Verminlord to create a hivemind with a ridiculously high spellcasting level.

I got that part.

Do Hiveminds get extra HD? I don't think they do, but I'd thought I'd ask.

[Jormengand]

Khepri, the Living Scourge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19299172&postcount=59).

[ColorBlindNinja]

Khepri, the Living Scourge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19299172&postcount=59).

Thanks, I appreciate it. :smallsmile:

[AvatarVecna]

Khepri is very little more than a basic H.I.V.E. build. Because she jumpstarts everything with two of the Vermin familiars the class gives you, you can enter Vermin Lord as basically any full caster you want. So the basic trick of Khepri is just doing a normal H.I.V.E. thing with your two 4HD Fine swarm familiars (using the weird rules of swarms to turn hivemind creation into broken bull****) and then using your new hivemind CL 382 to cast Gate (giving up 1000 XP) to summon (382/4=95 rounded down) 95 new swarms, then use Time Stop shenanigans to incorporate them into the swarm without anybody taking any swarm damage (this may require buffs as well, depending on how you go about things, but you've got spell slots for literal days so who cares). Now with 97 total swarms in your hivemind, your CL is 19382. Cast Gate again (paying 1000 XP) to summon up MOAR SWARMS. Integrate the new swarms into your hivemind, rinse, and repeat. Continue doing this over and over until you either run out of XP to sacrifice before your main body can no longer pay for casting Gate, or until you run out of patience or memory space for calculating out your exact numbers over and over. I gave up at the latter, when Google (after so many iterations that I started using Thought Bottles to extend the cycle) gave up trying to count everything somewhere around (2 googol)3, or 8*10^300 or thereabout. That number is a very rough approximation of the number of spells you can cast per round, the number of bonus skill points and bonus feats you have per Hit Die, and the Int and Cha of your swarms (but not you).

It's a pile of pointless bull**** that has some problems and ultimately only exists to piss in LD's cereal about just how much you can do in this game without infinite loops.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Khepri is very little more than a basic H.I.V.E. build. Because she jumpstarts everything with two of the Vermin familiars the class gives you, you can enter Vermin Lord as basically any full caster you want. So the basic trick of Khepri is just doing a normal H.I.V.E. thing with your two 4HD Fine swarm familiars (using the weird rules of swarms to turn hivemind creation into broken bull****) and then using your new hivemind CL 382 to cast Gate (giving up 1000 XP) to summon (382/4=95 rounded down) 95 new swarms, then use Time Stop shenanigans to incorporate them into the swarm without anybody taking any swarm damage (this may require buffs as well, depending on how you go about things, but you've got spell slots for literal days so who cares). Now with 97 total swarms in your hivemind, your CL is 19382. Cast Gate again (paying 1000 XP) to summon up MOAR SWARMS. Integrate the new swarms into your hivemind, rinse, and repeat. Continue doing this over and over until you either run out of XP to sacrifice before your main body can no longer pay for casting Gate, or until you run out of patience or memory space for calculating out your exact numbers over and over. I gave up at the latter, when Google (after so many iterations that I started using Thought Bottles to extend the cycle) gave up trying to count everything somewhere around (2 googol)3, or 8*10^300 or thereabout. That number is a very rough approximation of the number of spells you can cast per round, the number of bonus skill points and bonus feats you have per Hit Die, and the Int and Cha of your swarms (but not you).

It's a pile of pointless bull**** that has some problems and ultimately only exists to piss in LD's cereal about just how much you can do in this game without infinite loops.

It's not hard to avoid the XP cost, either, but that would be an infinite loop.

Thanks for sharing!

[AvatarVecna]

It's not hard to avoid the XP cost, either, but that would be an infinite loop.

Thanks for sharing!

Oh yeah. It's not trivial to get around the XP costs, but it's not too difficult either, particularly for somebody like Khepri. Getting around it would defeat the point, though.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Oh yeah. It's not trivial to get around the XP costs, but it's not too difficult either, particularly for somebody like Khepri. Getting around it would defeat the point, though.

I guess it would.

[flappeercraft]

Holy crap is that broken. But weren't there some RAW issues with Khepri?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Holy crap is that broken. But weren't there some RAW issues with Khepri?

Not that I can see; Hiveminds really are that broken.

[AvatarVecna]

Holy crap is that broken. But weren't there some RAW issues with Khepri?

Potentially, and it's in the bolded part below:


Khepri is very little more than a basic H.I.V.E. build. Because she jumpstarts everything with two of the Vermin familiars the class gives you, you can enter Vermin Lord as basically any full caster you want. So the basic trick of Khepri is just doing a normal H.I.V.E. thing with your two 4HD Fine swarm familiars (using the weird rules of swarms to turn hivemind creation into broken bull****) and then using your new hivemind CL 382 to cast Gate (giving up 1000 XP) to summon (382/4=95 rounded down) 95 new swarms, then use Time Stop shenanigans to incorporate them into the swarm without anybody taking any swarm damage (this may require buffs as well, depending on how you go about things, but you've got spell slots for literal days so who cares). Now with 97 total swarms in your hivemind, your CL is 19382. Cast Gate again (paying 1000 XP) to summon up MOAR SWARMS. Integrate the new swarms into your hivemind, rinse, and repeat. Continue doing this over and over until you either run out of XP to sacrifice before your main body can no longer pay for casting Gate, or until you run out of patience or memory space for calculating out your exact numbers over and over. I gave up at the latter, when Google (after so many iterations that I started using Thought Bottles to extend the cycle) gave up trying to count everything somewhere around (2 googol)3, or 8*10^300 or thereabout. That number is a very rough approximation of the number of spells you can cast per round, the number of bonus skill points and bonus feats you have per Hit Die, and the Int and Cha of your swarms (but not you).

The biggest issue a Vermin Lord has in going full Khepri is the space requirement: your ability to form a hivemind requires everybody involved in the new hivemind to fit into a cube 10ft to a side. Swarms can stack with each other indefinitely because the swarm space rules are weird, but your Vermin Lord has to be inside that mess too. Just being present in that mess isn't the problem...the swarm damage is. Since we're working with 4HD swarms here, they'll be dealing 1d6 damage each. I've yet to find an actual answer on whether a swarm with immunity to weapon attacks is immune to swarm damage, but I'm inclined to think that the RAW and RAI say that swarms are affected by other swarm's swarm damage. Swarm damage is dealt at the end of the swarm's move or turn to whoever occupies the same space, and I can't find anything in the swarm immunities indicating that this is counted as a weapon.

My original solution to this problem was to put Extended Twinned Chained "Stoneskin" spells benefiting from the limit-raising abilities of Reserves Of Strength on every swarm summoned with my many actions and super-CL, but as has been since brought up, swarms can't be targeted by single-target spells (even if they're multi-target spells), it needs to be AoE. I've yet to find an AoE spell that gives even a tiny bit of DR, so that means we either need to find a way to make the new swarms immune to swarm damage long enough for all my swarms to move to share their space, or we need to find a method of merging them with the existing swarm that doesn't involve the new swarms using their meager 4HD to tank a d6 of swarm damage for every swarm in the horde.

Getting the new swarms to enter the hivemind space one at a time, even via "readied action to go as soon as the previous swarm" take a lot of time, particularly when you get to the higher levels and it takes forever for them to cross the space. The alternative (having your hivemind enter their space under a Time Stop to avoid hitting the creature with swarm damage) runs into issues with Time Stop since it's a Personal spell; either swarms need to be able to target themselves with Personal spells (RAW I think says no, but RAI I'd probably allow it in-game, if it was being done in a non-shenanigans way) or Khepri targets herself with Time Stop and brings the swarms along via the quote below from Hiveminds (RAW seems like it might allow it, but I'd probably never allow a Personal spell to target somebody other than the person it's cast on even if the rules directly said it was legal, not unless they were changing the Target line of the spell somehow):


When running a hivemind encounter, play the hivemind as a single creature as much as possible.

Note that all of these shenanigans are only necessary because I'm pretty sure that swarms are not immune to swarm damage; if there was a way to make it so that swarms were immune to swarm damage, or if there's a rule I've missed that makes swarms immune to swarm damage, that would close this problem.

[flappeercraft]

Although it's cheesy maybe gating swarms with the Mineral Warrior template could work. It can be applied to any creature type that is not construct, undead or elemental meaning it qualifies and they get DR 8/Adamantine. Doesn't increase HD and there is nothing in Gate that disallows calling templated creatures unless I am missing something.

[AvatarVecna]

Although it's cheesy maybe gating swarms with the Mineral Warrior template could work. It can be applied to any creature type that is not construct, undead or elemental meaning it qualifies and they get DR 8/Adamantine. Doesn't increase HD and there is nothing in Gate that disallows calling templated creatures unless I am missing something.

That...looks like it's RAW legal, even if there's some significant RAI issues with summoning templated creatures (as has been debated a number of times from what I've seen). Still, part of the assumptions of the original build were literal, which made the NI number of swarms possible only because the multiverse was literally infinite, so even if we're limited to summoning the swarms of that type that possess the Mineral Warrior template, there's still theoretically an infinite number of those in the infinite multiverse. So yeah, that's a major issue solved; now Khepri and her hivemind can just have all the new swarms start out sharing a space together, and Khepri and her hivemind will move into that space and create a hivemind on their turns, making it so that each new Gates worth of swarms can be integrated in the time it takes to negotiate payment.

[flappeercraft]

Any other RAW issue that needs solving? It's fun for me to try solve problems like these.

[AvatarVecna]

Any other RAW issue that needs solving? It's fun for me to try solve problems like these.

Right now the only issue is applying single- or multi- target spells to Khepri's swarms somehow. It's not strictly necessary since Khepri herself can be targeted with such spells, so if need be she just goes into battle without her swarms at her side, but instead with full benefits of being a swarm member besides the inherent action economy shenanigans. The inability for her swarms to use Time Stop, Contingency, Celerity, and countless single-target buff spells is a pain, but not one I've yet found a way around. This would generally require either turning the limited-target spells into AoEs, or turning the swarms into not swarms (and most spells that do that kind of thing are single target). Obviously, this problem goes away immediately when Epic Spellcasting comes online, but that's not exactly a solution I feel comfortable bringing to the table. "But it totally works if you custom-craft an Epic Spell that can do it" is a meaningless statement.

[flappeercraft]

Affinity Field could share all 1st-3rd level spells. You could make it 4th level spells with sanctum spell. This solves the problem of celerity

[ryu]

Right now the only issue is applying single- or multi- target spells to Khepri's swarms somehow. It's not strictly necessary since Khepri herself can be targeted with such spells, so if need be she just goes into battle without her swarms at her side, but instead with full benefits of being a swarm member besides the inherent action economy shenanigans. The inability for her swarms to use Time Stop, Contingency, Celerity, and countless single-target buff spells is a pain, but not one I've yet found a way around. This would generally require either turning the limited-target spells into AoEs, or turning the swarms into not swarms (and most spells that do that kind of thing are single target). Obviously, this problem goes away immediately when Epic Spellcasting comes online, but that's not exactly a solution I feel comfortable bringing to the table. "But it totally works if you custom-craft an Epic Spell that can do it" is a meaningless statement.

Couldn't you just Occular spell to turn personal or targeted spells into the thing you want? Well technically I believe you'd need another metamagic for personal spells but I think the point is rather moot.

[AvatarVecna]

Affinity Field could share all 1st-3rd level spells. You could make it 4th level spells with sanctum spell. This solves the problem of celerity

That works for 1st through 3rd, and putting Sanctum Spell on the spells in question could potentially get them in as well, but playing Contingency chess without Contingency is problematic.


Couldn't you just Occular spell to turn personal or targeted spells into the thing you want? Well technically I believe you'd need another metamagic for personal spells but I think the point is rather moot.

Ocular Spell changes a non-personal spell (or a ray spell) into a ray spell you hold in your eye. This (along with the other metamagic) lets the swarms cast Celerity onto Khepri, but the problem is casting personal, single-target, and multi-target spells onto the swarms, because of this:


A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind.

By RAW, I'm pretty sure this includes Personal spells (even if RAI I'd allow a swarm capable of casting to affect themselves with Personal spells), single-target is explicitly mentioned, and multi-target is implied by "specific number of targets". Even something like Chain spell isn't gonna work, I need AoEs. If I wasn't doing this via Gate (which is either [Creation] or [Calling], but not [Summoning]), I think Imbued Summoning would work (assuming it lets you apply the effect of spells to your summons even if they're not a legal target), but normal summons will pop away when it's done, so that won't do except for maybe a single combat of "tons of buffed swarms", and even then it would only work for spells up to 3rd lvl.

[JBPuffin]

This is assuming Spell Research is entirely off the table, right?

[flappeercraft]

I found [URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406642-Turn-Any-Targeted-Spell-Into-an-AoE!"]this. It coudl be useful

[AvatarVecna]

So far what I've found is the Lens Of Ray Widening, which turns a Ray into a Cone, which will let us apply rays (including Ocular spells, so any non-personal spell) to a 60 ft Cone of creatures; plenty to get it applied to my swarms. Unfortunately, I think it's a consumable item, which isn't insurmountable but means we'll need some method of getting lots of money, and still means that I can't pull of Contingency chess because Ocular Spell requires the spell to have 1 full round or less casting time, while Contingency is 10 minutes; even Rapid Spell can't get it down low enough. I'm gonna go check the Contingent Spell rules in Complete Arcane to see if that can save my Contingency chess, but I'll also be looking for non-consumable ways of turning single-targets and personals to AoEs.

EDIT: Ninja'd, damnit! :smalltongue:

[AvatarVecna]

This is assuming Spell Research is entirely off the table, right?

Unless the rules for it are well-laid out, it's likely to stray too heavily into RAI territory for my tastes. I would prefer for this build to avoid RAI where it can, since a TO build that depends on both abusing RAW and ignoring it where convenient and justifiable isn't so much an exploit of the rules as handwaving away things that would make it not work.

EDIT: I'm gonna go check the DMG rules on spell research. Hopefully it's less handwavy than I'm imagining.

[AvatarVecna]

Hopefully it's less handwavy than I'm imagining.

Guess not. At this point, my best guide for custom spells would probably be making an epic spell with no mitigating factors and comparing its DC to that of non-epic spells designed as epic spells, but that's likely fraught with problems.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Energy Transformation Field might work for buffing.

[Jormengand]

Energy Transformation Field might work for buffing.

Yeah, but by the time you've got one of those there are worse things you can do with one.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yeah, but by the time you've got one of those there are worse things you can do with one.

:smallconfused: What do you mean by that?

[Jormengand]

:smallconfused: What do you mean by that?

In my experience, introducing an ETF into any build makes it rapidly turn into ETF optimisation, rather than optimising anything else.

So it depends on whether this is meant to be a HIVE build or an ETF build. :smalltongue:

[ColorBlindNinja]

In my experience, introducing an ETF into any build makes it rapidly turn into ETF optimisation, rather than optimising anything else.

So it depends on whether this is meant to be a HIVE build or an ETF build. :smalltongue:

Ah, I see. Honestly, I just thought of it as a solution to Khepri's potential buffing problem.

[AvatarVecna]

That spell appears to require an expensive material component and an XP component. Additionally, it appears to power a single particular spell, and when it reaches the power necessary to cast that spell, it will cast it once as normal, but does not actually appear to turn it into an AoE, unless I'm reading it very wrong.

[ColorBlindNinja]

That spell appears to require an expensive material component and an XP component. Additionally, it appears to power a single particular spell, and when it reaches the power necessary to cast that spell, it will cast it once as normal, but does not actually appear to turn it into an AoE, unless I'm reading it very wrong.

That's too bad. I thought it might work, but, oh well.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Couldn't the swarm lower its immunity to single target spells?

[Jormengand]

Couldn't the swarm lower its immunity to single target spells?

No, it's not conventional Spell Immunity and can't be lowered like that.

[ColorBlindNinja]

No, it's not conventional Spell Immunity and can't be lowered like that.





Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic (for example, an elf’s resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality.


Doesn't that imply that a swarm can suppress its immunity to target spells?

[AvatarVecna]

Doesn't that imply that a swarm can suppress its immunity to target spells?

This allows the swarm to voluntarily fail a save against a spell targeting them that they wish to allow to affect them, it does not allow them to voluntarily allow a spell to target them in the first place.

[Tainted_Scholar]

This allows the swarm to voluntarily fail a save against a spell targeting them that they wish to allow to affect them, it does not allow them to voluntarily allow a spell to target them in the first place.

So, it's not their immune, it's that they can't actually be targeted in the first place.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I guess that leaves us with Epic spells, then.

Unless, someone else can come up with a solution?

Maybe mixing corporeal swarms with incorporeal ones?

[flappeercraft]

I think I found the solution. Take 7 levels of Mind Mage (Dragon Magazine 313) which will allow you to reduce the effective spell level of any spell by 1 if you spend 8 power points. This means you can put even 9th level spells through affinity field. If you do take that build I would recommend making the build a

Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold with Greater Draconic Rite Sorcerer 1/Psion 3/Mind Mage 7/Vermin Lord 10

Feats: Versatile Spellcaster, Any Psi-spell feat, Any Psi-spell feat, Arcane Disciple Spider, Vermin friend

Of course it would be a level higher than the original build so if there is a way to get 2nd level powers early that would be ideal

Edit: Forgot to mention, needs a PP recharge trick to be fully functional

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think I found the solution. Take 7 levels of Mind Mage (Dragon Magazine 313) which will allow you to reduce the effective spell level of any spell by 1 if you spend 8 power points. This means you can put even 9th level spells through affinity field. If you do take that build I would recommend making the build a

Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold with Greater Draconic Rite Sorcerer 1/Psion 3/Mind Mage 7/Vermin Lord 10

Feats: Versatile Spellcaster, Any Psi-spell feat, Any Psi-spell feat, Arcane Disciple Spider, Vermin friend

Of course it would be a level higher than the original build so if there is a way to get 2nd level powers early that would be ideal

Neat idea.

Could you use spells that have been converted to powers to heal your swarms?

Edit: Use an Ice Assassin with Affinity Field and a healing spell that was converted into a power.

[flappeercraft]

That could be good for duplicating swarms honestly and also for healing them

[Tetra Vortexx]

Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold with Greater Draconic Rite Sorcerer 1/Psion 3/Mind Mage 7/Vermin Lord 10

But, It's level 21 character (epic)

[ColorBlindNinja]

But, It's level 21 character (epic)

Ice Assassin to the rescue! Is there anything that spell can't do? :smalltongue:

[flappeercraft]

But, It's level 21 character (epic)

I stated that already, as I said that it was 1 level too high. This can be solved if someone in this thread finds a way to get 2nd level powers early but until then it's stuck like that

[ColorBlindNinja]

I stated that already, as I said that it was 1 level too high. This can be solved if someone in this thread finds a way to get 2nd level powers early but until then it's stuck like that

You might be able to use an Erudite StP with Magic Mantle instead of Sorcerer/Wizard.

That should nab you Affinity Field and allow you to take levels in Vermin Lord.

[flappeercraft]

The problem with that is one technicality, you can't cast spells, you instead manifest spells and that also removes the early entry for arcane casting as instead of 3rd level spells at 1st level you can just get 2nd level spells if using Versatile spellcaster.

[Tainted_Scholar]

What about a gestalt? Though it is a variant.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The problem with that is one technicality, you can't cast spells, you instead manifest spells and that also removes the early entry for arcane casting as instead of 3rd level spells at 1st level you can just get 2nd level spells if using Versatile spellcaster.

That's what Magic Mantle is for; you treat magic and psionics as identical.

[flappeercraft]

That's what Magic Mantle is for; you treat magic and psionics as identical.

Where is magic mantle again? I'm not too familiar with psionics

[ColorBlindNinja]

Where is magic mantle again? I'm not too familiar with psionics

It's from the (rather poorly written) Complete Psionic; its supposed to enable Psionic-Magic Transparency, but what actually says is that you treat magic and psionics as identical.

[Tetra Vortexx]

It's from the (rather poorly written) Complete Psionic; its supposed to enable Psionic-Magic Transparency, but what actually says is that you treat magic and psionics as identical.

It's not identical, Manifesting isn't Casting. Caster Level isn't Manifester Level
Psionic-Magic Transparency is how spells and powers interact.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It's not identical, Manifesting isn't Casting. Caster Level isn't Manifester Level

Magic Mantle says that you treat magic and psionics as identical; that would include CL and ML.

Edit:

The text in question:




In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical. Therefore, powers such as dispel psionics work for both magic and psionics. Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems.

Despite what the descriptions says, that's not Magic-Psionic Transparency.

RAI that what it should do, but RAW, that isn't what it does.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Magic Mantle says that you treat magic and psionics as identical; that would include CL and ML.

Edit:

The text in question:



Despite what the descriptions says, that's not Magic-Psionic Transparency.

RAI that what it should do, but RAW, that isn't what it does.
I think you can safely ignore anything a user with a name starting "Tetra Vortex" tells you.

[Tetra Vortexx]

I think you can safely ignore anything a user with a name starting "Tetra Vortex" tells you.
It's funny to read a person called "JustIgnoreMe". LOL

[JustIgnoreMe]

It's funny to read a person called "JustIgnoreMe". LOL
It's funny that you think adding a letter to the end of a former username will fool anyone, Drako.

[Tetra Vortexx]

It's funny that you think adding a letter to the end of a former username will fool anyone, Drako.

Hahaha, you ignored! ^^ :smallbiggrin: JustIgnoreYou



Now, it's explained why we asked for the crap Khepri build several times.
You've hidden from me all the time for various reasons

Full of flaws and is a Sorcerer and use Sorcerer Spellcasting.
It only proves the power of the Sorcerers Base Casting. But whatever Khepri does, Blood Sorcerer King does it better.

But do not worry, join me in exterminating those who dare to learn arcane power.
I already have the solution for this build. But, only sorcerers can do this. Kisses.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Hahaha, you ignored! ^^ :smallbiggrin: JustIgnoreYou



Now, it's explained why we asked for the crap Khepri build several times.
You've hidden from me all the time for various reasons

Full of flaws and is a Sorcerer and use Sorcerer Spellcasting.
It only proves the power of the Sorcerers Base Casting. But whatever Khepri does, Blood Sorcerer King does it better.

But do not worry, join me in exterminating those who dare to learn arcane power.
I already have the solution for this build. But, only sorcerers can do this. Kisses.

Sorry, but our RAW has no defense. :smallwink:

[Tainted_Scholar]

Hahaha, you ignored! ^^ :smallbiggrin: JustIgnoreYou



Now, it's explained why we asked for the crap Khepri build several times.
You've hidden from me all the time for various reasons

Full of flaws and is a Sorcerer and use Sorcerer Spellcasting.
It only proves the power of the Sorcerers Base Casting. But whatever Khepri does, Blood Sorcerer King does it better.

But do not worry, join me in exterminating those who dare to learn arcane power.
I already have the solution for this build. But, only sorcerers can do this. Kisses.

Full of flaws, like what? The one we just found a way to fix?

[Tetra Vortexx]

Sorry, but our RAW has no defense. :smallwink:
Wrong again, Blood Sorcerer king uses RAW, not you.

I already created combo 10, but I have no patience to post. In fact, I could create combo 11, with HIVEMIND and show how true Sorcerer Casting is. And far superior than Khepri Sorcerer.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Report, ignore, and move on. Best way.

Loving the new work on Khepri, by the way: great to see how players with real understanding of the rules can still find new things after more than a decade!

[Tainted_Scholar]

Wrong, Blood Sorcerer king uses RAW, not you.

Drako, do not drag this thread into another debate about your Sorcerer. If you want to talk about it, create a new thread.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Drako, do not drag this thread into another debate about your Sorcerer. If you want to talk about it, create a new thread.

Calm down little boy, I did not say anything about myself or anything offensive, just the JustIgnoreMe that provoked me. Good, **** you ^^

[Tetra Vortexx]

Loving the new work on Khepri, by the way: great to see how players with real understanding of the rules can still find new things after more than a decade!
LOL, WOW, that player is so good!!! (Sarcastic) Just a full copy to H.I.V.E build, but as sorcerer?? Full TO? Full flaws? You are a Joke.

[ColorBlindNinja]

LOL, WOW, that player is so good!!! (Sarcastic) Just a full copy to H.I.V.E build, but as sorcerer?? Full TO? Full flaws? You are a Joke.

You'll impress no one by copying someone else's build.

[Tetra Vortexx]

You'll impress no one by copying someone else's build.

Blood Sorcerer King is original, brand new 10 combos. I completely smash all wizards with only combo 2.
100% original combos.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Blood Sorcerer King is original, brand new 10 combos. I completely smash all wizards with only combo 2.
100% original combos.

Feel free to make (another) thread about it.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Feel free to make (another) thread about it.

I'm out of patience, maybe tomorrow.

[JustIgnoreMe]

I'm out of patience, maybe tomorrow.

Mañana, mañana, always mañana.

[AvatarVecna]

I think I found the solution. Take 7 levels of Mind Mage (Dragon Magazine 313) which will allow you to reduce the effective spell level of any spell by 1 if you spend 8 power points. This means you can put even 9th level spells through affinity field. If you do take that build I would recommend making the build a

Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold with Greater Draconic Rite Sorcerer 1/Psion 3/Mind Mage 7/Vermin Lord 10

Feats: Versatile Spellcaster, Any Psi-spell feat, Any Psi-spell feat, Arcane Disciple Spider, Vermin friend

Of course it would be a level higher than the original build so if there is a way to get 2nd level powers early that would be ideal

Edit: Forgot to mention, needs a PP recharge trick to be fully functional

Alright, so this establishes that a solution exists, but getting it to work requires more levels than we have available pre-epic...unless we can find a way to get 2nd lvl powers without taking 3 levels of manifesting. Funnily enough, I actually know of a way to do that, but it involves two PrCs arguably even cheesier than Vermin Lord. So naturally, I'll be taking them both on the new build, unless a way can be found to dominate without them. :smallbiggrin:


What about a gestalt? Though it is a variant.

Gestalt makes things much easier across the board, but as a variant it's harder to call it pure RAW.


Wrong again, Blood Sorcerer king uses RAW, not you.

I already created combo 10, but I have no patience to post. In fact, I could create combo 11, with HIVEMIND and show how true Sorcerer Casting is. And far superior than Khepri Sorcerer.

Only thing I'm going to respond to you on: if there's anything this thread proves, it's that Khepri goes out of her way to be RAW compliant. Of course, even if we didn't have a way around the issues with putting Personal spells on swarms (which we do now, so nyeh :smalltongue:), all that would mean is that Khepri would leave her swarms at home and have NI casting/feats/skills, but not NI actions (except from NI Time Stops/Celerities/Contingencies, but that's neither here nor there). She would still be more than capable of taking on the entire universe at the same time, including your sorcerer.

[Jormengand]

She would still be more than capable of taking on the entire universe at the same time, including your sorcerer.

Does that make her the dread sorcerer queen? :smalltongue:

[AvatarVecna]

Does that make her the dread sorcerer queen? :smalltongue:

Well, Khepri is the fully realized form of the Queen Administrator. :smalltongue: So yes, I do believe it would, especially once the new version has been put together. :smallbiggrin:

[Jormengand]

unless we can find a way to get 2nd lvl powers without taking 3 levels of manifesting.

Ardent manifests straight out of its manifester level, so that might work. I've lost what you need the 2nd level powers for though.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Ardent manifests straight out of its manifester level, so that might work. I've lost what you need the 2nd level powers for though.

Probably to qualify for Mind Mage.

[AvatarVecna]

Ardent manifests straight out of its manifester level, so that might work. I've lost what you need the 2nd level powers for though.

Admittedly, I'm not super-familiar with psionics in any way, so I'm probably gonna have to do a bit of research to figure out exactly how it would work. I don't expect it be a major hurdle with the build I've got in mind right now, though.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Only thing I'm going to respond to you on: if there's anything this thread proves, it's that Khepri goes out of her way to be RAW compliant. Of course, even if we didn't have a way around the issues with putting Personal spells on swarms (which we do now, so nyeh :smalltongue:), all that would mean is that Khepri would leave her swarms at home and have NI casting/feats/skills, but not NI actions (except from NI Time Stops/Celerities/Contingencies, but that's neither here nor there). She would still be more than capable of taking on the entire universe at the same time, including your sorcerer.


I do not know if you noticed, but you're weak and whatever you do, Blood Sorcerer King does it best. Even Sorcerer King swarm has + Sorcerer King charisma for initiative and dex based skills.
But I dislike HIVEMIND

1) It's high TO.
2) You can not choose swarm spell know or feats. LOL, it's funny. They casting Energy Drain and random spells. (2000+ spells avaiable)
3) Swarm can't cast personal spells
4) Swarm do not qualify for the biggest tricks. Require Skill rank or Spellcasting level.
5) It's sorcerer casting and your build is a sorcerer. True Sorcerer power.
6) ANY spell that your Swarm uses is useless and weak. Simple useless against Dread King
7) Supernatural mage disjuction = good bye.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Does that make her the dread sorcerer queen? :smalltongue:
It would be cool, the Wizards no longer have a chance against the King, if you have Queen it would be very funny.

[Jormengand]

Probably to qualify for Mind Mage.

If you just need any level 2 power then ardent 1 practised manifester works and you don't have to look at what ardent does in more detail; if you're after a specific one then you will actually have to familiarise yourself with ardent more.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If you just need any level 2 power then ardent 1 practised manifester works and you don't have to look at what ardent does in more detail; if you're after a specific one then you will actually have to familiarise yourself with ardent more.

Interesting; I'm not particularly familiar with Ardents. They're in the Complete Psionic aren't they?

Edit: Yep, Complete Psionic; I'll give it a read.

[flappeercraft]

Then I guess that is how we finish Khepri, Ardent instead of Psion.

Now, is there any other RAW issues so that we can solve them? We have already successfully solved all of them that we have been told about

Edit: We still need a way to get Affinity Field on an Ardent actually. Maybe an item of continuous Affinity Field as a required item?

[Tetra Vortexx]

Edit: We still need a way to get Affinity Field on an Ardent actually. Maybe an item of continuous Affinity Field as a required item?

1.296.000 gold. Break WBL. A single Hail of stone and good bye item.

[Jormengand]

Then I guess that is how we finish Khepri, Ardent instead of Psion.

Now, is there any other RAW issues so that we can solve them? We have already successfully solved all of them that we have been told about

Edit: We still need a way to get Affinity Field on an Ardent actually. Maybe an item of continuous Affinity Field as a required item?

Expanded Knowledge?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Expanded Knowledge?

What about Psychic Chirurgery? You can create an Ice Assassin of an Elder Brain.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Expanded Knowledge?



Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list.

It's level 9 power.

Don't work.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list.

It's level 9 power.

Don't work.

Take Magic Mantle and Sanctum Spell.

[flappeercraft]

1.296.000 gold. Break WBL. A single Hail of stone and good bye item.

Cost reducers exist, also it's possible to make items immune to damage.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Cost reducers exist, also it's possible to make items immune to damage.

I'm curious about that last part, how would you make items immune to damage?

[Garktz]

Isnt there a feat like practiced spellcaster but for psions so you only need 2 psion levels instead of 3?

might be a stupid idea but reading over the last posts, it came to me that it might work to keep it on 20 levels instead of 21

[Tetra Vortexx]

Take Magic Mantle and Sanctum Spell.

LOL, You can't apply metamagic in a power. Sanctum power does not exist.
And IF it's a spells, first you learn and after you apply metamagic.
Can't do it.

[Jormengand]

Guys, please remember not to feed the dread sorcerer king. He has regeneration except against fire and acid.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Guys, please remember not to feed the dread sorcerer king. He has regeneration except against fire and acid.

Wrong, War Troll is immune to fire!

[Tetra Vortexx]

Cost reducers exist, also it's possible to make items immune to damage.
It's not possible to do it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

LOL, You can't apply metamagic in a power. Sanctum power does not exist.
And IF it's a spells, first you learn and after you apply metamagic.
Can't do it.

Magic Mantle lets me apply metamagic feats to powers.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Wrong, War Troll is immune to fire!

Acid it is then.






No, wait that'll just turn him into the joker.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Magic Mantle lets me apply metamagic feats to powers.

Wrong! Metamagic to spells, Metapsionic to power.

WOW, nice, Sorcerer can learn Power normally! It's cool
No, Magic Mantle dont allow you use metamagic in a power. But, If it's possible (but, can't do it), Sorcerer King will be still more powerful OMG!


Whatever, you learn spell and after apply metamagic, never the opposite
. This trick don't work.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Wrong! Metamagic to spells, Metapsionic to power.

WOW, nice, Sorcerer can learn Power normally! It's cool
No, Magic Mantle dont allow you use metamagic in a power. But, If it's possible, Sorcerer King will be still more powerful OMG!

You're wrong on both counts; that is how Magic Mantle works, and no, your Sorcerer can't learn powers. At least not as he is now.

[Tetra Vortexx]

You're wrong on both counts; that is how Magic Mantle works, and no, you're Sorcerer can't learn powers. At least not as he is now.

Wrong, sorcerer king can learn everything. He's not restricted to Sorcerer/Wizard spells.

OMG, Sorcerer King applying metamagic will be STUPID powerful!

[flappeercraft]

It's not possible to do it.

No it's not, if you took more than 5 minutes to actually think of a combo for something other than killing you might notice how to

[ColorBlindNinja]

Wrong, sorcerer king can learn everything. He's not restricted to Sorcerer/Wizard spells.

OMG, Sorcerer King applying metamagic will be STUPID powerful!

Until you can show us how (hopefully in a new thread), no one will believe you.

Also, you're still wrong.

[Jormengand]

You're wrong on both counts; that is how Magic Mantle works, and no, your Sorcerer can't learn powers. At least not as he is now.

One day you will learn that arguing with drako isn't worth it.

[AvatarVecna]

One day you will learn that arguing with drako isn't worth it.

Seconded. Responding to him just turns this thread about debating Khepri into a thread debating LD.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Until you can show us how (hopefully in a new thread), no one will believe you.

Also, you're still wrong.

hauhauhahuauhauhuhauhahuahuahua

THANKS guys!! Combo 12! Sorcerer King learn and metamagicking powers!! Sorcerer can learn anything.


Thanks guys! I love us!

[ColorBlindNinja]

One day you will learn that arguing with drako isn't worth it.

I know it's pointless, but I'm stubborn and someone is wrong on the internet.

Edit:


hauhauhahuauhauhuhauhahuahuahua

THANKS guys!! Combo 12! Sorcerer King learn and metamagicking powers!! Sorcerer can learn anything.


Thanks guys! I love us!

Still haven't shown how...

Magic Mantle's text again:




In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical. Therefore, powers such as dispel psionics work for both magic and psionics. Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems.

[Jormengand]

I know it's pointless, but I'm stubborn and someone is wrong on the internet.

It's worse than pointless because it's taking up a thread where we could be doing something useful.

[Tetra Vortexx]

I know it's pointless, but I'm stubborn and someone is wrong on the internet.

Edit:



Still haven't shown how...

Magic Mantle's text again:


In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical.

Sorcerers can learn and apply metamagic normally, According to yourself.

You said that is possible apply Sanctum spell to a power. Ok!

Your argument is so stupid, that everything you do, Dread Sorcerer King does better.

[flappeercraft]

AvatarVecna, so is there anything else we need to solve?

[AvatarVecna]

AvatarVecna, so is there anything else we need to solve?

With the logistics of getting the super-swarm formed in the first place dealt with, and a couple methods of turning personal spells and single-target spells into AoOs so that the swarms can be affected by them (and oh my god I just realized another piece of bull**** that can be done to make that much easier, using the Lens that was brought up earlier), I think that covers the issues we had. I'm probably gonna get a new build post put together and get a thread posted for it, when I've got the time.

[ColorBlindNinja]

With the logistics of getting the super-swarm formed in the first place dealt with, and a couple methods of turning personal spells and single-target spells into AoOs so that the swarms can be affected by them (and oh my god I just realized another piece of bull**** that can be done to make that much easier, using the Lens that was brought up earlier), I think that covers the issues we had. I'm probably gonna get a new build post put together and get a thread posted for it, when I've got the time.

I look forward to it. :smallsmile:

[Tetra Vortexx]

couple methods of turning personal spells and single-target spells into AoOs so that the swarms can be affected by them
Wrong again. :smallbiggrin:

[JNAProductions]

With the logistics of getting the super-swarm formed in the first place dealt with, and a couple methods of turning personal spells and single-target spells into AoOs so that the swarms can be affected by them (and oh my god I just realized another piece of bull**** that can be done to make that much easier, using the Lens that was brought up earlier), I think that covers the issues we had. I'm probably gonna get a new build post put together and get a thread posted for it, when I've got the time.

Look forward to seeing it! You done some good work with this build.

Blatant TO, of course, but fun TO.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Now we try creat a Dread Sorcerer Queen and show the power of Sorcerer. Smashing wizard as insects.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Now we try creat a Dread Sorcerer Queen and show the power of Sorcerer. Smashing wizard as insects.

I'm pretty sure you can make Khepri as a Wizard.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm pretty sure you can make Khepri as a Wizard.

The current version of Khepri can be made as basically any full caster.

[Tetra Vortexx]

I'm pretty sure you can make Khepri as a Wizard.

Ahhahahahahahahahaha use HIVEMIND Sorcerer Casting for RAW. The wizard level is useless.

The power of the build is sorcerer casting, no matter the basis. Only sorcerer casting further increases the RAW power (more sorcerer caster level) and of course you can know all the spells of the game + psychic reformation + sorcerer exclusive spells.

[Tetra Vortexx]

The current version of Khepri can be made as basically any full caster.


The power of the build will always be Sorcerer Casting. Only with sorcerer level advance, you're even better.



Sorcerer Power!

[AvatarVecna]

Only sorcerer casting further increases the RAW power (more sorcerer caster level)

Actually, the hivemind casting is not sorcerer caster levels on top of your existing sorcerer caster levels, they are completely separate from your normal casting even if your normal casting is Sorcerer.

[flappeercraft]

AvatarVecna, well so I guess that's done. When you get the new Khepri build up send me a message or something. I want to see it

[ColorBlindNinja]

AvatarVecna, well so I guess that's done. When you get the new Khepri build up send me a message or something. I want to see it

I must say, I'm curious too.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Actually, the hivemind casting is not sorcerer caster levels on top of your existing sorcerer caster levels, they are completely separate from your normal casting even if your normal casting is Sorcerer.

Wrong, monster base spellcasting + spellcaster level accumulates.

Read Savage species and MM


Whatever, is full Sorcerer Casting power.

[AvatarVecna]

AvatarVecna, well so I guess that's done. When you get the new Khepri build up send me a message or something. I want to see it


I must say, I'm curious too.

Don't worry, I'll be sure to catch everybody's attention by naming the thread something stupid like "ALL HAIL THE QUEEN ADMINISTRATOR!!!!1! UNBEATABLE DREAD SORCERESS QUEEN!!!!". If not even a single comment on the first page points out that she's worse than the Sorcerer King by virtue of having no shirtless pics, I will be slightly disappointed. :smallwink:


Wrong, monster base spellcasting + spellcaster level accumulates.

Read Savage species and MM


Whatever, is full Sorcerer Casting power.

That's how innate spellcasting works, but hivemind casting is a different beast entirely.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Don't worry, I'll be sure to catch everybody's attention by naming the thread something stupid like "ALL HAIL THE QUEEN ADMINISTRATOR!!!!1! UNBEATABLE DREAD SORCERESS QUEEN!!!!". If not even a single comment on the first page points out that she's worse than the Sorcerer King by virtue of having no shirtless pics, I will be slightly disappointed. :smallwink:

No shirtless pics!? I'm highly disappointed! :smallfrown:

[Tetra Vortexx]

That's how innate spellcasting works, but hivemind casting is a different beast entirely.

Wrong again, it's innate spellcasting. Sorcere casting is always innate. It's monster casting + spellcaster level, it's acumulate.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Wrong again, it's innate spellcasting. Sorcere casting is always innate. It's monster casting + spellcaster level, it's acumulate.

Even if that's true (which I doubt), is 20 CL or so really going to make a difference?

[AvatarVecna]

No shirtless pics!? I'm highly disappointed! :smallfrown:

Not on this forum, for better or worse. :smallwink:

*shakes fist at the the hypocritical standards of acceptable nudity*

[Tetra Vortexx]

Don't worry, I'll be sure to catch everybody's attention by naming the thread something stupid like "ALL HAIL THE QUEEN ADMINISTRATOR!!!!1! UNBEATABLE DREAD SORCERESS QUEEN!!!!". If not even a single comment on the first page points out that she's worse than the Sorcerer King by virtue of having no shirtless pics, I will be slightly disappointed. :smallwink:


You can not choose HIVEMIND spell know or feats. And you're weak and easy to kill, a supernatural mage disjuntion or supernatural Truename Dispel = you lose.
HIVEMIND can not cast personal spells and HIVEMIND spells is useless againt sorcerer king.
Sorcerer King can do everything you do (including abuse of HIVEMIND), but, better.

But even so, you're still stronger than any wizard.


Marry me and have a Dread Sorcerer King prince?

[ColorBlindNinja]

You can not choose HIVEMIND spell know or feats. And you're weak and easy to kill, a supernatural mage disjuntion or supernatural Truename Dispel = you lose.
HIVEMIND can not cast personal spells and HIVEMIND spells is useless againt sorcerer king.
Sorcerer King can do everything you do, but, better.

But even so, you're still stronger than any wizard.

The Vermin Lord's Hive Mind ability is SU, it can't be dispelled.

[Tetra Vortexx]

The Vermin Lord's Hive Mind ability is SU, it can't be dispelled.

You lose your spells = you are Dead. And disjon your Gate spell. Also, Sculpt Line Antimagic Field = No SU abilities
Also, Supernatural Truename dispell

[AvatarVecna]

You can not choose HIVEMIND spell know or feats. And you're weak, a supernatural mage disjuntion = you lose.
HIVEMIND can not cast personal spells and HIVEMIND spells is useless againt sorcerer king.

But even so, you're stronger than any wizard.

I look forward to seeing how much your intentionally flawed and selective reading of Hivemind is used in your build to do things that are both not RAW legal and go against all of your previous arguments made against hiveminds.

Word to anybody reading the thread: the hypcrisy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?157556-Tetra-Vortexx) is strong in this one.

[JustIgnoreMe]

You can not choose HIVEMIND spell know or feats.
Even if they were randomly allocated, the numbers we're talking about mean this build has every possible spell and every possible feat. Choice is irrelevant.

[Tetra Vortexx]

I look forward to seeing how much your intentionally flawed and selective reading of Hivemind is used in your build to do things that are both not RAW legal and go against all of your previous arguments made against hiveminds.

Word to anybody reading the thread: the hypcrisy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?157556-Tetra-Vortexx) is strong in this one.

Wait, your build is not legal. You can't use Versatile spell know to early entry.
No level to cast it, no spell know.
You build is ILEGAL

Glossary:known spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and
can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their
spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having
selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level
advancement.





Sorcerer King uses HIVEMIND better than Khepri Sorcerer Queen.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You lose your spells = you are Dead. And disjon your Gate spell. Also, Sculpt Line Antimagic Field = No SU abilities
Also, Supernatural Truename dispell

Immunity to spells is easy to get, and protection VS AMF is trivial at these levels of TO.

Edit:


Wait, your build is not legal. You can't use Versatile spell know to early entry.
No level to cast it, no spell know.
You build is ILEGAL

Glossary:known spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and
can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their
spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having
selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level
advancement.

This again? You're wrong; Versatile Spell can do that.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Even if they were randomly allocated, the numbers we're talking about mean this build has every possible spell and every possible feat. Choice is irrelevant.

Wrong, it's only TO. They dont have Spellcraft or Knowledge spell
They can take +3 HIT Point x1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

It's only TO baby

[ColorBlindNinja]

Wrong, it's only TO. They dont have Spellcraft or Knowledge spell
They can take +3 HIT Point x1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

It's only TO baby

They get skill points as the Hive Mind grows.

[flappeercraft]

Wait, your build is not legal. You can't use Versatile spell know to early entry.
No level to cast it, no spell know.
You build is ILEGAL

Glossary:known spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and
can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their
spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having
selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level
advancement.





Sorcerer King uses HIVEMIND better than Khepri Sorcerer Queen.

Heighten spell solves that issue. Done

[Tetra Vortexx]

Immunity to spells is easy to get, and protection VS AMF is trivial at these levels of TO.

Wrong again, Immunity to spell dont work to Spell SR : No . Also, you can't do it.

and It's Supernatural, not spells.


Wrong, Supernatural Antimagic field is NOT trivial, is your dead.

[AvatarVecna]

Wrong, it's only TO. They dont have Spellcraft or Knowledge spell
They can take +3 HIT Point x1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

It's only TO baby

You don't need Spellcraft or Knowledge to learn new spells. And I detailed how Khepri qualifies in the build post. I can understand why you're throwing a fit and declaring it illegal, though.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Wrong again, Immunity to spell dont work to Spell SR : No . Also, you can't do it.

and It's Supernatural, not spells.

I wasn't taking about the spell called Spell Immunity, I'm talking about immunity to spells.

Immunity to SU abilities isn't hard either.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Heighten spell solves that issue. Done

Wrong, He need know Giant Vermin, Heghtein still don't qualify


Khepri Sorcerer Queen is ILEGAL

[flappeercraft]

Wrong, He need know Giant Vermin, Heghtein still don't qualify


Khepri Sorcerer Queen is ILEGAL


There is a thing called Arcane Disciple that was detailed in the post where I said what the new build would have to be

[AvatarVecna]

Heighten spell solves that issue. Done

Heighten Spell isn't even how I'm doing, and wouldn't be necessary anyway. I need a 4th lvl slot (which I have from Versatile Spellcaster) and I need Giant Vermin (which I know from Arcane Disciple). It's not terribly complicated.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Wrong, it's only TO. They dont have Spellcraft or Knowledge spell
They can take +3 HIT Point x1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

It's only TO baby
That wouldn't be random allocation though, would it? It's either player's choice, or it's random, or it's DM's choice. No DM choice in RAW.

[flappeercraft]

Heighten Spell isn't even how I'm doing, and wouldn't be necessary anyway. I need a 4th lvl slot (which I have from Versatile Spellcaster) and I need Giant Vermin (which I know from Arcane Disciple). It's not terribly complicated.

I thought he meant to qualify for Mind Mage not for Giant Vermin. I'm aware of how it gets Giant Vermin, after all I just wrote an alternative to how to do it and posted it.

[Tetra Vortexx]

That wouldn't be random allocation though, would it? It's either player's choice, or it's random, or it's DM's choice. No DM choice in RAW.

Swarms spells is aleatory and weak. They can't do almost no tricks, dont qualify to it and can't cast personal spells.
Useless.

Khepri is Ilegal.

[Tetra Vortexx]

I thought he meant to qualify for Mind Mage not for Giant Vermin. I'm aware of how it gets Giant Vermin, after all I just wrote an alternative to how to do it and posted it.

Mind Mage is not Khepri build.

I'll bet if you try new to use this, it will be illegal again.

We asked him a lot of times to show this build
"Khepri." But he never showed, this explained.

[AvatarVecna]

*rolls eyes*

Just ignore them, everyone. Not worth the waste of time. I'm gonna follow my own advice and just plonk 'em.

[flappeercraft]

Swarms spells is aleatory and weak. They can't do almost no tricks, dont qualify to it and can't cast personal spells.
Useless.

Khepri is Ilegal.

We literally just detailed how to cast the personal spells and get the whole Hive to do it. Affinity Field + Mind Mage allows you to cast any spell you have and share it with everyone in the field at the cost of power points which you can get back from psionic recharge.

[Tetra Vortexx]

We literally just detailed how to cast the personal spells and get the whole Hive to do it. Affinity Field + Mind Mage allows you to cast any spell you have and share it with everyone in the field at the cost of power points which you can get back from psionic recharge.

Also, Affinity is useless, He can't cast Affinity Field. Also, creat a build to do it and lets analyse it again.

[Tetra Vortexx]

There is a thing called Arcane Disciple that was detailed in the post where I said what the new build would have to be

Wrong again. It's not Spell know. It's only add spells to arcane spell list. Nothing more

Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells.


It's ilegal.

[AvatarVecna]

Wrong again. It's not Spell know. It's only add spells to arcane spell list. Nothing more

Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells.


It's ilegal.

Presuming that there isn't a way around that (which there is, but the current version isn't using it), just turn the Blackguard levels into Sorcerer levels and the problem is completely solved.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Presuming that there isn't a way around that (which there is, but the current version isn't using it), just turn the Blackguard levels into Sorcerer levels and the problem is completely solved.


Do it again, Khepri is illegal.

[AvatarVecna]

Do it again, Khepri is illegal.

You're going to have to explain how if you want people to believe your baseless accusations.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Report, ignore, and move on. Best way.

Loving the new work on Khepri, by the way: great to see how players with real understanding of the rules can still find new things after more than a decade!

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/560691888085168128/cLnDcYTB.jpeg

[OldTrees1]

Presuming that there isn't a way around that (which there is, but the current version isn't using it), just turn the Blackguard levels into Sorcerer levels and the problem is completely solved.

cough cough, you were going to plonk them remember?

[Tetra Vortexx]

Report, ignore, and move on. Best way.

Loving the new work on Khepri, by the way: great to see how players with real understanding of the rules can still find new things after more than a decade!

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/560691888085168128/cLnDcYTB.jpeg



That's why his name is "JustIgnoreMe"

[AvatarVecna]

cough cough, you were going to plonk them remember?

*sigh* I did, but the reply is just so simple. I really need to just walk away, get ready for my game tonight. :smallsigh:

[Jormengand]

Man, the truename dispel trick! I never thought I'd see someone steal that!

Not that it's actually helpful here anyway, really, but it's a nice thought.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Man, the truename dispel trick! I never thought I'd see someone steal that!

Not that it's actually helpful here anyway, really, but it's a nice thought.

Steal???

Enlarger (3740 range) Transdimentional Supernatural Truename Dispel = Any H.I.V.E build dead or Wizard Dead
It's under Dread Sorcerer King build.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Man, the truename dispel trick! I never thought I'd see someone steal that!

Not that it's actually helpful here anyway, really, but it's a nice thought.

Does his Sorcerer King now have levels in Truenamer? Edit: Or ranks in Truespeak?


Steal???

Enlarger (3740 range) Transdimentional Supernatural Truename Dispel = Any H.I.V.E build dead or Wizard Dead

Still does nothing.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Does his Sorcerer King now have levels in Truenamer?

Truename skill ranks. Don't need Truename levels.

Sorcerer King Improvisation spell and/or Truename Speech feat.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Truename skill ranks. Don't need Truename levels.

Sorcerer King Improvisation and/or Truename Speech feat.

So not only is that a Bard spell, but your bonus can't be greater than half your caster level.

[Tetra Vortexx]

So not only is that a Bard spell, but your bonus can't be greater than half your caster level.

177 caster level. Sorcerer can learn any spell. It's sorcerer power.
Also, can learn and apply metamagic to a power according with you

[ColorBlindNinja]

177 caster level. Sorcerer can learn any spell. It's sorcerer power.
Also, can learn and apply metamagic to a power according with you

- How is he learning it when it's a Bard spell?

- Does your Sorcerer have Magic Mantle?

Edit: You could use Limited Wish, but that costs XP.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Loving the new work on Dread Sorcerer King, by the way: great to see how players with real understanding of the rules can still find new things after more than a decade!

Now, it's correct!
Thanks

[Tetra Vortexx]

- How is he learning it when it's a Bard spell?

Sorcerer is not limited to Sorcerer/Wizard list.

Do not forget. This is Sorcerer power!



Edit: You could use Limited Wish, but that costs XP.
Supernatural limited wish.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Sorcerer is not limited to Sorcerer/Wizard list.

Do not forget. This is Sorcerer power!

So, how are you getting it?

It doesn't really matter, since it won't work.

[Tetra Vortexx]

So, how are you getting it?

It doesn't really matter, since it won't work.

Read sorcerer class first, you are lazy.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Read sorcerer class first, you are lazy.

That isn't how the burden of proof works; you made the claim, the onus is on you to provide evidence for it.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Now, it's correct!
Thanks

Don't edit people's posts to agree with you, it just makes you look pathetic.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Read sorcerer class first, you are lazy.

I have read the sorcerer class, and I still don't know how you're going to do it.

[Tetra Vortexx]

That isn't how the burden of proof works; you made the claim, the onus is on you to provide evidence for it.

Just read sorcerer spells:

I already gave you the way, let's go! Stop being lazy! Interprete and anything comes here with your doubt.

He will never be an engineer.

[AvatarVecna]

Don't edit people's posts to agree with you, it just makes you look pathetic.

To be fair, it's not like misquoting people will make him look worse than he already does.

[Tetra Vortexx]

I have read the sorcerer class, and I still don't know how you're going to do it.


Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells (the same type of spells
available to bards and wizards), which are drawn primarily from the
sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192). He can cast any spell he knows
without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must
(see below).
To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score
equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11
for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving
throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s
Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number
of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is
given on Table 3–16: The Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus
spells per day if he has a high Charisma score (see Table 1–1: Ability
Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8).
A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer
begins play knowing four 0-level spells (also called cantrips) and two
1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains
one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 3–17: Sorcerer Spells
Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer
knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table
3–17 are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from
the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual
spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.
For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an
unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell
list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for
attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level. The
sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a
faster rate, however.
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer
level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a
new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer
“loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s
level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it
must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell
the sorcerer can cast. For instance, upon reaching 4th-level, a
sorcerer could trade in a single 0-level spell (two spell levels below
the highest-level sorcerer spell he can cast, which is 2nd) for a
different 0-level spell. At 6th level, he could trade in a single 0-level
or 1st-level spell (since he now can cast 3rd-level sorcerer spells) for
a different spell of the same level. A sorcerer may swap only a single
spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the
spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells
in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he
has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. For
example, at 1st level, the sorcerer Hennet can cast four 1st-level
spells per day—three for being 1st level (see Table 3–16: The
Sorcerer), plus one thanks to his Charisma score of 15 (see Table 1–
1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8). However, he knows
only two 1st-level spells: magic missile and sleep (see Table 3–17:
Sorcerer Spells Known). Thus, on any given day, he can cast some
combination of the two spells a total of four times. He does not have
to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.



Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire: A sorcerer
or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and
never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a
new level, consult Table 3–5: Bard Spells Known or Table 3–17:
Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the
appropriate spell list in Chapter 11: Spells he now knows.
sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they
gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some
understanding of (see Spells in the sorcerer description, page 54).
For instance, when Hennet the sorcerer becomes 2nd level, he
gains an additional 0-level spell. He can pick that spell from the 0-
level spells on the sorcerer and wizard spell list, or he might have
learned an unusual spell from an arcane scroll or spellbook




Gogogo, I'm already helping


It's sorcerer power! Again, Sorcerer is not a spontaneous Wizard.

[Tainted_Scholar]

He will never be an engineer.

:smallconfused:

What if he doesn't want to be?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire: A sorcerer
or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and
never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a
new level, consult Table 3–5: Bard Spells Known or Table 3–17:
Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the
appropriate spell list in Chapter 11: Spells he now knows. With the
DM’s permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they
gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some
understanding of (see Spells in the sorcerer description, page 54).
For instance, when Hennet the sorcerer becomes 2nd level, he
gains an additional 0-level spell. He can pick that spell from the 0-
level spells on the sorcerer and wizard spell list, or he might have
learned an unusual spell from an arcane scroll or spellbook




Gogogo, I'm already helping


It's sorcerer power!

You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel if you're using the Spell Research rules.

It still won't work, even if you have the spell...

[Tainted_Scholar]

You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel if you're using the Spell Research rules.

It still won't work, even if you have the spell...

What's next, custom spells and magic items?

[Tetra Vortexx]

:smallconfused:

What if he doesn't want to be?


Even if he wants to, he's lazy, he'll never finish it.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Even if he wants to, he's lazy, he'll never finish it.

Or he just expects you to put your money where your mouth is.

[Tetra Vortexx]

What's next, custom spells and magic items?

Wrong again,
it's not Spell Research rule. It's Sorcerer Spell description!

[AvatarVecna]

What's next, custom spells and magic items?

At least there's guidelines and limitations for custom magic items. :smalltongue:

[Tetra Vortexx]

You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel if you're using the Spell Research rules.

It still won't work, even if you have the spell...

read Again, you still don't read sorcerer spell description? Lazy boy.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Wrong again,
it's not Spell Research rule. It's Sorcerer Spell description!

Except it's not a rule, it doesn't tell you what spells a Sorcerer can learn or how.

It's be like if the Fighter section said, "Also there's a way for the Fighter to shoot laser from his eyes, maybe." It doesn't detail how it works so you can't use it in RAW.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Except it's not a rule, it doesn't tell you what spells a Sorcerer can learn or how.

It's be like if the Fighter section said, "Also there's a way for the Fighter to shoot laser from his eyes, maybe." It doesn't detail how it works so you can't use it in RAW.

Apparently, Sorcerers being able to learn spells from other classes is more or less accepted as TO, but it's still scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Edit: It also doesn't matter, because it won't work.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Except it's not a rule, it doesn't tell you what spells a Sorcerer can learn or how.

It's be like if the Fighter section said, "Also there's a way for the Fighter to shoot laser from his eyes, maybe." It doesn't detail how it works so you can't use it in RAW.


Sometimes I'm amazed how the people of this forum can not read! Hahahaha




A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.




HOW?


Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire: A sorcerer
or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and
never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a
new level, consult Table 3–5: Bard Spells Known or Table 3–17:
Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the
appropriate spell list in Chapter 11: Spells he now knows.
sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they
gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some
understanding of (see Spells in the sorcerer description, page 54).
For instance, when Hennet the sorcerer becomes 2nd level, he
gains an additional 0-level spell. He can pick that spell from the 0-
level spells on the sorcerer and wizard spell list, or he might have
learned an unusual spell from an arcane scroll or spellbook





This community are lazy or too stupid.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Apparently, Sorcerers being able to learn spells from other classes is more or less accepted as TO, but it's still scraping the bottom of the barrel.



Hey, Sorcerer is not Spontaneous Wizard. He can learn any spell. Sorcerer Supremacy.
Body outside Body, Improvisation, Creepling Darkness, Minute form, Giant form, Triple Mask, Choose Destiny, Blasphemy or anything he want.


But this is easy to understand, his magic comes from blood, not from study. So he can manipulate any spell.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire: A sorcerer
or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and
never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a
new level, consult Table 3–5: Bard Spells Known or Table 3–17:
Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the
appropriate spell list in Chapter 11: Spells he now knows.
sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they
gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some
understanding of (see Spells in the sorcerer description, page 54).
For instance, when Hennet the sorcerer becomes 2nd level, he
gains an additional 0-level spell. He can pick that spell from the 0-
level spells on the sorcerer and wizard spell list, or he might have
learned an unusual spell from an arcane scroll or spellbook

Where is this part from? I checked the SRD page for Sorcerers can couldn't find it.

[Tetra Vortexx]

Where is this part from? I checked the SRD page for Sorcerers can couldn't find it.


I will not help again, do not be lazy or you will not be an engineer.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I will not help again, do not be lazy or you will not be an engineer.

Why are you obsessed with being an engineer?

[Tetra Vortexx]

Why are you obsessed with being an engineer?
Nothing. I am Engineer, it's why i am not lazy. Just a tip.


Change your Nickname to Tainted Sorcerer, it's better than "scholar"

[mastermisha1]

From the SRD

"Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire

A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: The Bard or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list he now knows. With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of."

I am on mobile right now and cant properly edit the text but the operative part of the above quote is "With permission."

Edit: typos from fat fingers on mobile.

[Menzath]

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.



From the SRD

"Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire

A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: The Bard or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list he now knows. With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of."

I am on mobile right now and cant properly edit the text but the operative part of the above quote is "With permission."

Edit: typos from fat fingers on mobile.

Yup, it is a non detailed alternate acquisition method.

Since it requires more clarity on ruling what spells "unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of" can be chosen that seems to mean up to DM. And by RAW no DM, no alternate spells.

So all in all not RAW legal. Again.

[Cosi]

Suppose we accept Drako's contention that a spell is whatever you learn it as. So if you learn charm person as a Bard, it's a Bard Spell, but if you learn it as a Beguiler it's a Beguiler Spell. What happens if I learn some spell as both a Sorcerer and a Wizard, then learn arcane fusion as a Wizard somehow. Can I cast the spell with arcane fusion out of my Wizard slots then?

[AvatarVecna]

Suppose we accept Drako's contention that a spell is whatever you learn it as. So if you learn charm person as a Bard, it's a Bard Spell, but if you learn it as a Beguiler it's a Beguiler Spell. What happens if I learn some spell as both a Sorcerer and a Wizard, then learn arcane fusion as a Wizard somehow. Can I cast the spell with arcane fusion out of my Wizard slots then?

Depends on how you interpret the spell, I think. The mechanics text of Arcane Fusion specifies that you must use Sorcerer spells with it. Whether this requires the spells be known via your Sorcerer Spells Known, or just that you're using spells on the sorcerer list (like, Charm Person is a sorcerer spell, but a Wizard can take it as a Wizard spell; doesn't change that it's a sorcerer spell, so a Wizard could cast it via Arcane Fusion if the Wizard manages to get their hands on Arcane Fusion).

[Cosi]

Depends on how you interpret the spell, I think. The mechanics text of Arcane Fusion specifies that you must use Sorcerer spells with it. Whether this requires the spells be known via your Sorcerer Spells Known, or just that you're using spells on the sorcerer list (like, Charm Person is a sorcerer spell, but a Wizard can take it as a Wizard spell; doesn't change that it's a sorcerer spell, so a Wizard could cast it via Arcane Fusion if the Wizard manages to get their hands on Arcane Fusion).

I mean, my reading is just that you can use it to throw out any two spells of the appropriate level from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, regardless of what class you nominally are. I think that's where most people are, but that's not really what I'm interested in, precisely because I think most people agree. I'm interested in the implications of Drako's position (for the record, I'm not working towards any particular gotcha, I'm just interested in trying to understand the underlying logic).

So suppose you have a Sorcerer 10/Wizard 10.

As a 1st level spell for both classes, he knows charm person. My understanding is that, according to Drako, this makes it a Sorcerer spell (because he knows it as a Sorcerer) and also a Wizard spell (because he knows it as a Wizard).

Now suppose he somehow learns arcane fusion as a 5th level spell as a Wizard. Can he use it to cast charm person? charm person is one of his Sorcerer Spells, and its a spell he knows as a Wizard, so it seems like the answer should be yes, but I want to know how Drako thinks it works.

[AvatarVecna]

but I want to know how Drako thinks it works.

Might take a little while, since his most recent account has already been purged from the forum. :smallsmile: