Does anyone else want to play a caster in gritty realism?

[mgshamster]

Every time a gritty realism thread pops up, everyone always says to avoid long rest casters.

But I'd love to play a long rest caster in a gritty realism game. It sounds like an exciting challenge to me.

Does anyone else feel that way? Am I the only one who looks forward to a caster with gritty realism?

[DivisibleByZero]

It doesn't matter. Play whatever you want to play. The difference is only in their heads.

[Naanomi]

Long duration spells all get shafted, which can have some reprecussions on casters (mostly on those reliant on Mage Armor, but some other spells also lose some oomph); but otherwise if you are sticking to a normal 'encounter schedule' it should be fine. The fun in emphasizing short rest or no rest reliant characters is the ability to them shortcut the encounter schedule if needed (to me anyways)

[CantigThimble]

There's nothing wrong with enjoying a challenge. I went from a full spellcaster in one campaign to a champion fighter in another just to see if my impact on the story was due to my roleplaying or my spells.

[Lance Tankmen]

I use gritty realism and wizards don't suffer at all. But I also use a homebrew to give everyone else a chance on a short rest to get one spell back because otherwise only sorcerers and ranger/paladins suffer

[Naanomi]

I use gritty realism and wizards don't suffer at all. But I also use a homebrew to give everyone else a chance on a short rest to get one spell back because otherwise only sorcerers and ranger/paladins suffer
Do you extend the duration of the 8-24 hour duration spells, or are they generally just not taken? Things like Mage Armor and Animate Dead lose a ton of utility if they can only be expected to last one encounter

[Easy_Lee]

Do you extend the duration of the 8-24 hour duration spells, or are they generally just not taken? Things like Mage Armor and Animate Dead lose a ton of utility if they can only be expected to last one encounter

A DM ought to extend spells such as these in good faith. That said, gritty realism ought not affect most campaigns. People just say they take longer rests. It's up to the DM whether those rests are more difficult to come by.

If we want to talk about realism, casters would be even more powerful in a realistic setting. A level 1 Cleric could make bank off of the Mending cantrip alone.

[mgshamster]

I kind of see gritty realism used in a campaign where you have a home base and go out on a single quest once every few months.

Then, it's basically your spell allotment for the entire adventure, no matter how many days it takes.

When you're done, you head back to town to rest up.

Tales of the Yawning Portal seems like it would be perfect for that.

[ad_hoc]

Every time a gritty realism thread pops up, everyone always says to avoid long rest casters.

But I'd love to play a long rest caster in a gritty realism game. It sounds like an exciting challenge to me.

Does anyone else feel that way? Am I the only one who looks forward to a caster with gritty realism?

We use it and it makes no difference.

The primary purpose for us is to make the narrative make more sense/be more intuitive. Like if you go on a dungeon expedition you can take some short rests by camping but need to go back to town to fully rest up.

Leomund's Tiny Hut is no longer any good but that's about it.

[Sariel Vailo]

Oh hell yeah id be a caster in realistic gritty game.swordsinger ah **** yeah be serious instead of silly.
Or warlockor cleric it sounds fun

[Puh Laden]

Yes I would want to play a caster in gritty realism, but the reason varies based on how the variant is being used. If it's being used to balance the adventuring day for a political or mystery-focused campaign with lots of social encounters, I would want to play a wizard or bard for the fun of using the social-focused spells. If it's being used to actually make the game harder, I'd want to play a long-rest caster because I enjoy the puzzle of resource management.

[smcmike]

I haven't played a gritty realism campaign, but I'm curious about all those saying that it's essentially no different. That doesn't ring true to me, unless the setting is very static. Under any sort of time pressure, the cost/benefit of spending resources seems like it must change dramatically. Spending a whole week recovering resources really is something, and requires a lot of security.

[ad_hoc]

I haven't played a gritty realism campaign, but I'm curious about all those saying that it's essentially no different. That doesn't ring true to me, unless the setting is very static. Under any sort of time pressure, the cost/benefit of spending resources seems like it must change dramatically. Spending a whole week recovering resources really is something, and requires a lot of security.

The entire point of it is to allow for a different story. Instead of time pressure always being in hours it can be in days. It still allows for the odd adventuring day where there are little to no short rests.

Keep in mind that the 24 hours/7 days is not set in stone. It should be adjusted to fit the setting/stories. I find I usually use 2-4 hours for short rests and 24 hours for long rests.

[imanidiot]

A
If we want to talk about realism, casters would be even more powerful in a realistic setting. A level 1 Cleric could make bank off of the Mending cantrip alone.

Making 100gp per day during downtime would be pretty easy. With half of that you could hire 24 bodyguards in rotating shifts 24 hours a day. You're now at minimum a CR 3 encounter at 1st level.

[smcmike]

Making 100gp per day during downtime would be pretty easy. With half of that you could hire 24 bodyguards in rotating shifts 24 hours a day. You're now at minimum a CR 3 encounter at 1st level.

Would it, though? If we are talking about "mending," you are suggesting that the path to riches is being a tinker. That doesn't seem quite right.

[JellyPooga]

I have played a full-caster under gritty realism (a Lore Bard); the limitation on those spells per rest was a significant hindrance to actually feeling anything like a spellcaster. If it wasn't for Bardic Inspiration, I would have felt almost completely useless; between having to miser my spell slots and the general unreliability of any non-blasty offensive spells, I found myself saving my spell slots for utility and buffs only; both things that went largely unnoticed or could have been done without magic anyway.

The thing to remeber about Gritty Realism is that often, the reason it's being used is not for any kind of pacing or balance, but because the setting is meant to be low magic, making being a spellcaster not only a challenge from a gameplay perspective, but also a roleplaying one. Both can be fun, for the challenge itself, but if you want the fast-firing spellinger feel of "normal" d&d, then that simply isn't the experience you'll have playing in a gritty realism game.

[Dr. Cliché]

I do find it odd that people can talk about D&D in the context of "gritty realism". :smallwink:

That aside, if I was going for something grittier, I think I'd want to change other aspects of magic - not just the time it takes to recover spells.

I'd want to make the magic itself less 'smooth' (for lack of a better word) and risk-free.

[mgshamster]

I do find it odd that people can talk about D&D in the context of "gritty realism". :smallwink:

Heh. In this case though, we're specifically talking about the Variant Rule in the DMG called "Gritty Realism." Page 267


if you want the fast-firing spellinger feel of "normal" d&d, then that simply isn't the experience you'll have playing in a gritty realism game.

Isn't that what cantrips are for? You can sling those all day long.

[Dr. Cliché]

Heh. In this case though, we're specifically talking about the Variant Rule in the DMG called "Gritty Realism." Page 267

Yeah, I get that. I was just saying that the change doesn't really scream 'gritty realism' to me. :smalltongue:

[mgshamster]

Yeah, I get that. I was just saying that the change doesn't really scream 'gritty realism' to me. :smalltongue:

Fair point.

[JellyPooga]

Isn't that what cantrips are for? You can sling those all day long.

True enough, but it still doesn't compare to the "normal" D&D where you can happily fire off a spell or two in every fight or encounter. In Gritty D&D, I found myself using only Cantrips, weapon attacks and other non-spell options in many encounters, preferring to "save" my spell slots for more important or dangerous ones, which often didn't come, meaning that I frequently had spell slots unused when we got an opportunity, or were forced by low-HP, to Long Rest. I simply wasn't casting spells for fear of "wasting" their potential before getting a chance to take the dreaded week-long holiday to recharge them, which is partly the purpose of the Gritty rests rule.

[imanidiot]

Would it, though? If we are talking about "mending," you are suggesting that the path to riches is being a tinker. That doesn't seem quite right.

Mending is very minor. Identify, Comprehend Languages, Detect Thoughts, Clairvoyance. As you get higher level spells get more and more valuable. Most rulers would pay quite a lot for a court wizard if almost no one has a court wizard.

[Lombra]

I don't get why people think that the gritty realism rest system alters the balance of any class during the adventuring day. You will still have around 6 encounters per adventuring day which starts and finishes at the end of a long rest regardless of the amount of time that it takes to make a long rest. There will always be 2, maximum 3 encounters for every short rest.

Gritty realism is useful when you want to make downtime an important feature, it does not inherently alter the adventuring day and the balance of classes towards it. Normally you make 6 or 7 encounters during a solar day of 24 hours, with gritty realism you are going to make 6 or seven encounters in 3 or 4 days.

[DanyBallon]

We are currently using the gritty rest variant in our SKT campaign for overland travel, we also houseruled that short rest takes 8h but don't happen every day (we try to stick with 2-3 short rest for 1 long rest, like for the regular adventuring day). So far no one complained. Once or twiced my characters were badlucky and got 3 random encounter in a row (morning, afternoon and night) and were thight on ressources by the end of the day, otherwise, they get by most encounters quite easily.

[Naanomi]

I don't get why people think that the gritty realism rest system alters the balance of any class during the adventuring day. You will still have around 6 encounters per adventuring day which starts and finishes at the end of a long rest regardless of the amount of time that it takes to make a long rest. There will always be 2, maximum 3 encounters for every short rest.
Excepting that in most cases it invalidates the utility of any long duration magic... Mage Armor, the 'always on defensive spell' instead becomes something that lasts one encounter and you likely can't 'precast' it in preperation for that encounter. Animate Dead becomes almost impossible to 'maintain' your minion... conjure elemental as well. Anything with a duration of an hour or more likely takes a huge step backward in utility

[Lombra]

Excepting that in most cases it invalidates the utility of any long duration magic... Mage Armor, the 'always on defensive spell' instead becomes something that lasts one encounter and you likely can't 'precast' it in preperation for that encounter. Animate Dead becomes almost impossible to 'maintain' your minion... conjure elemental as well. Anything with a duration of an hour or more likely takes a huge step backward in utility

At the same time rituals gain in utility. Always-on spells now require to be planned, but they still help you for 2-3 encounters. Minionmancy becomes more expensive and requires very high level characters to be used constantly, which fits the "gritty" theme in my opinion.

[smcmike]

Mending is very minor. Identify, Comprehend Languages, Detect Thoughts, Clairvoyance. As you get higher level spells get more and more valuable. Most rulers would pay quite a lot for a court wizard if almost no one has a court wizard.

Maybe I misunderstood what we were taking about, since Mending was the spell that was mentioned, and I thought the point was funding protection for week-long long rests. Yes, a high level spellcaster should be able to earn a good living as a sedentary spellcaster for hire. That's pretty boring though, isn't it?


I don't get why people think that the gritty realism rest system alters the balance of any class during the adventuring day. You will still have around 6 encounters per adventuring day which starts and finishes at the end of a long rest regardless of the amount of time that it takes to make a long rest. There will always be 2, maximum 3 encounters for every short rest.

Gritty realism is useful when you want to make downtime an important feature, it does not inherently alter the adventuring day and the balance of classes towards it. Normally you make 6 or 7 encounters during a solar day of 24 hours, with gritty realism you are going to make 6 or seven encounters in 3 or 4 days.

Except it's easier to actually cram that many encounters into a "day" when "nights" are a week long.

Let's say the goal is a dungeon two days from town. On the way there, the party runs into a random encounter, which they defeat with minor loss of resources. In a normal game, they fully recover while camping that night, and continue on to the dungeon. In a gritty realism game, they take a short rest, and continue on to the dungeon.

In that dungeon, things go poorly. They manage to barricade themselves in a room, with lots undead on the other side. They don't have many resources left, and need a long rest to recover. In a normal game, they rest for 8 hours, then clean out the zombies. In a gritty realism game, maybe they run out of water on day 4.

[Zene]

I have not played in a gritty realism campaign. But if I did, I would love to play a wizard or an arcana cleric. They would play totally differently (I'd think) in terms of spell selection and resource management, and would probably feel more like what I think of casters in traditional fantasy (mostly there for their knowledge, with an occasional big bang).

[JellyPooga]

I don't get why people think that the gritty realism rest system alters the balance of any class during the adventuring day. You will still have around 6 encounters per adventuring day which starts and finishes at the end of a long rest regardless of the amount of time that it takes to make a long rest. There will always be 2, maximum 3 encounters for every short rest.

Gritty realism is useful when you want to make downtime an important feature, it does not inherently alter the adventuring day and the balance of classes towards it. Normally you make 6 or 7 encounters during a solar day of 24 hours, with gritty realism you are going to make 6 or seven encounters in 3 or 4 days.

As I mentioned in the other thread on this topic, it's the opportunity cost of Long Rests, compared to Short, that is an issue. You will have a Short Rest every day, because everyone needs to sleep. You might never get an opportunity to take a Long Rest over the course of a module/adventure, because seven whole days is a significant pause in the action. Encounter design be damned, seven days of downtime is a drastic change from the norm of standard d&d; going on a dungeon delve where you might face several encounters in a 24 hour period is a crippling prospect under Gritty realism and is still a possibility when using those rules. It's just what's expected from a game of d&d's style. The narrative impact of a Long Rest is much higher under Gritty and that means you simply have less of them, regardless of adventure design and it's usually because of the players' choice not to take a week long holiday every few days. No game plan is worth a damn until it comes face to face with the players it's for, after all.

That aside, the whole 6-8 encounters per long rest as part of adventure design is usually (in my experience) thrown out the window in gritty games, otherwise some of the point of using that rule is being missed.

[Pex]

The issue isn't how long a long rest is in gameworld. The issue is how often you get a long rest in game play. If a typical gaming session is no long rest during play but at the end of the session you get a long rest to start fresh next game session, you'll be fine. You get to use your stuff and learn resource management. It also matters that the session is not one combat after another which most likely it wouldn't be for a fair DM. However, if you've been playing once a week for four weeks and you still haven't had a long rest, that's a problem. That's the DM screwing over spellcasters, on purpose or not, and not just spellcasters.

Some DMs can't stand it for PCs to be "powerful". It's their own power trip. They have all the power as DM, and if a player gets to do something awesome, they can't handle the situation and/or feel they are losing their own sense of authority. They use the rest mechanic against players as a weapon. They can even use the "normal" gameworld rest rate. They still deny long and short rests for as long as possible, such as poison air in the dungeon that doesn't harm you unless you stay in one place too long, like, oh, say an hour. How unfortunate that's how long a short rest is. Shucks darn what a coincidence. Anyway, it should take the entire 6 hour session or two to play it out.

If your DM is denying you enough rest, even in gritty realism, talk to him. If he remains obstinate, get a new DM.

[smcmike]

Engineering scenarios where players have to carefully manage their resources is a pretty normal way of challenging them. The episode where the cylons attack every forty minutes was the best episode. You wouldn't want it every week, but give your DM some leeway. Good grief.