20th level 3.5 wizard vs XCOM 2 (with all DLC) Aliens

[gooddragon1]

Firstly: I'm not sure whether this belongs here or the 3.5 forum.

With that out of the way, I was watching some XCOM 2 gameplay and story youtubes and wondered, what if a 20th level wizard entered the battlefield untapped showed up to help the humans (with no preparation time in advance however). Could he turn the tides on his own? This wizard must be practical optimization, not theoretical optimization.

Since I feel like he probably could, what is the minimum wizard level that it would take for the wizard to turn things around (with practical optimization)?

Entry point is at the intro mission at the beginning of the game.
IMPORTANT: The wizard sounds like the council guy. You know which one I'm talking about.

Theoretical optimization means a 1st level commoner could pun-pun, so... yeah.

[Coidzor]

Needs more parameters.

Does he have access to other planes? Does he arrive with all of his gear? With his daily buffs already up? Stripped of even yesterday's lingering buffs?



It seems the most powerful psychic techniques available to humans are Permanent Domination, but it takes a significant amount of cooldown before it can be used again, and it isn't guaranteed to work, which sounds like a saving throw analogue. Or possibly it's one that can only be maintained while the psychic actively maintains it? Anyone recall if that ever is brought up?

Sectoid Commanders' most powerful psychic ability is a short duration Domination effect.

I don't think a properly made and high level Wizard to be particularly susceptible even if somehow caught with their pants down and no buffs up. Especially since even Ethereals are not immune to even their own form of mind control. Well, aside from the Uber Ethereal and potential other supremely high caste targets.



The most interesting thing that the aliens have to offer to the Wizard, I think, is their less magically intensive way of making aberrations by smooshing creatures together or mutating them or making them into cyber-zombies, which a Transmuter would probably find highly interesting, even if it's ultimately a novelty and not something they wind up wanting to actually use for themselves. Maybe a construct crafter might find some of their other toys of interest.



Assuming the Wizard knows Mindrape or Ice Assassin, then it will be able to access all information known by the aliens. Mindrape is a standard action to cast, IIRC, so they can learn everything the alien knows AND suborn it completely and utterly.



So long as the Wizard is not unexpectedly ganked by damage upon appearing, the aliens are toast. Between the Wizard's ability to gather information, provide logistics, create creatures, and so on, it's only a question of how long it takes them.

I can't remember the full extent of the setting of XCOM 2 to really come up with a ballpark for that.

One bit of food for thought, a decently made Wizard can use Animate Dread Warrior to bring back powerful dead human soldiers and dead aliens as loyal soldiers immune to mind control.

Another. With the XP sharing rules, human agents can finance the XP costs of making magic items and constructs, such as Shadesteel Golems. A religiously minded Wizard could apply the Sacred Guardian template to their constructs and give them intelligence and some amount of divine ability. Rudimentary Intelligence is another option for making constructs intelligent. Constructs will all be immune to the aliens' most potent weapons of toxins and mind control, and the tougher ones won't be particularly affected by the aliens' heavy weapons, at least in an infantry context.

[gooddragon1]

Needs more parameters.

Does he have access to other planes? Does he arrive with all of his gear? With his daily buffs already up? Stripped of even yesterday's lingering buffs?



It seems the most powerful psychic techniques available to humans are Permanent Domination, but it takes a significant amount of cooldown before it can be used again, and it isn't guaranteed to work, which sounds like a saving throw analogue. Or possibly it's one that can only be maintained while the psychic actively maintains it? Anyone recall if that ever is brought up?

Sectoid Commanders' most powerful psychic ability is a short duration Domination effect.

I don't think a properly made and high level Wizard to be particularly susceptible even if somehow caught with their pants down and no buffs up. Especially since even Ethereals are not immune to even their own form of mind control. Well, aside from the Uber Ethereal and potential other supremely high caste targets.



The most interesting thing that the aliens have to offer to the Wizard, I think, is their less magically intensive way of making aberrations by smooshing creatures together or mutating them or making them into cyber-zombies, which a Transmuter would probably find highly interesting, even if it's ultimately a novelty and not something they wind up wanting to actually use for themselves. Maybe a construct crafter might find some of their other toys of interest.



Assuming the Wizard knows Mindrape or Ice Assassin, then it will be able to access all information known by the aliens. Mindrape is a standard action to cast, IIRC, so they can learn everything the alien knows AND suborn it completely and utterly.



So long as the Wizard is not unexpectedly ganked by damage upon appearing, the aliens are toast. Between the Wizard's ability to gather information, provide logistics, create creatures, and so on, it's only a question of how long it takes them.

I can't remember the full extent of the setting of XCOM 2 to really come up with a ballpark for that.

One bit of food for thought, a decently made Wizard can use Animate Dread Warrior to bring back powerful dead human soldiers and dead aliens as loyal soldiers immune to mind control.

Another. With the XP sharing rules, human agents can finance the XP costs of making magic items and constructs, such as Shadesteel Golems. A religiously minded Wizard could apply the Sacred Guardian template to their constructs and give them intelligence and some amount of divine ability. Rudimentary Intelligence is another option for making constructs intelligent. Constructs will all be immune to the aliens' most potent weapons of toxins and mind control, and the tougher ones won't be particularly affected by the aliens' heavy weapons, at least in an infantry context.

Daily buffs yes, gear he is carrying yes, planes yes. He just hasn't planned for any of this. Though remember, practical optimization only.

Also, not necessarily in immediate line of fire, but there were some hostiles in the intro mission. He might need to convince the Xcom people to take him with them (though it may not be difficult).

Lastly, if level 20 is too much, what lower level could work?

[Coidzor]

Ahh, turns out in XCOM 2, Sectoids have a chance of permanent mind control up until they or the mind controlled unit are killed, at least in the context of a mission, but it's only one of three options that can come about from the use of a single power and it still relies on going up against the target's will, which is not good odds with a geared up, 20th level Wizard.

Avatars only have temporary mind control, but might actually be strong enough to have a meaningful chance of success, but they potentially wouldn't even have an opportunity to come into play at the pace at which a 20th level Wizard would work.

The fact that Ethereals don't appear in XCOM 2 does raise questions about whether our Wizard would be able to find any when venturing outside the confines of Earth or the areas that XCOM 2 deals with. Certainly if he waits around for an Avatar to show up, he'd be able to get access to one's mind, and he'd be capable of devising a set of parameters for the use of divination spells to determine what's going on with them.

Heck, if he's able to find a spot that hasn't been disturbed in 20 years, he can actually go back in time and prevent the canonical failure of XCOM in 2015.

Given the existence of ADVENT cloning vats and facilities, I posit that our Wizard would take over several and take advantage of the minions creating and programming infrastructure provided by his enemies. Eventually all living ADVENT troopers on the planet would be the Wizard's thralls, it's just a matter of finding the right creature to suborn in order to get the necessary knowledge or get the creature to do it for them.

Given the tech level, I believe it would be conceivable for the Wizard to work out that rubies and diamonds can be cheaply manufactured, which would provide a material incentive for meddling in the affairs of XCOM 2's Earth beyond the novelty of the situation, the general desire of powerful characters to wreck horrible retribution upon any who attack them and the organizations they are part of, or any kind of moral imperative to help the people of Earth and/or become their rightful God-Emperor that they might feel.


Daily buffs yes, gear he is carrying yes, planes yes. He just hasn't planned for any of this. Though remember, practical optimization only.

Also, not necessarily in immediate line of fire, but there were some hostiles in the intro mission. He might need to convince the Xcom people to take him with them (though it may not be difficult).

Lastly, if level 20 is too much, what lower level could work?

With his daily buffs up and minimal enemy presence of minimal strength, the Wizard dying is so unlikely that it doesn't bear contemplating since whatever deficiencies he might have can be rectified through his general purpose batch of prepared spells. Also, he averages around 130 hp (14 starting Con +5 from Wishes), so he can literally be shot in the face several times with many forms of small arms fire, and if he started with a 16 in Constitution, then our Wizard would be able to survive two nukes(16d8, avg. 72). Massed AoEs that can be spammed by enemies using certain explosives and weapons are probably the most threatening form of physical threat, aside from ship-based or orbital weaponry. Depending upon how the weapons work, however, Energy Resistance may render them less than effective or outright ineffective.

Shapechange introduces a whole world of potential as well that I'm not even well-versed enough to properly get into.

Unless planar travel is barred to him, he doesn't necessarily even need XCOM, let alone for them to take him anywhere. Talking to them would, however, save having to cast some number of divination spells, so it would likely be deemed the most expedient option.

A 9th level Wizard with Teleport would be a game changer. Even a 3rd level Wizard with Craft Wondrous Item could be a great strategic boon to XCOM.

If we allow for the possibility of leveling up by killing and incapacitating aliens and ADVENT on missions, potential non-lethal sparring, and killing/subduing wildlife on their off days, then even a fairly low level Wizard could become powerful enough to be a major factor in how events unfold.

[khadgar567]

gg advent
step 1 check your demi plane working
step 2 divine some info about advent
step 3 fetch your copy of ikea tarrasque book from library
step 4 create first batch of super soldiers
step 5 test them against advent
step 6a if succesful then start mass product and improvements
step 6b improve the batch and return to step 5
step 7 conqure the world or find a way to return your own dimension

character level cap pls

[Aotrs Commander]

and if he started with a 16 in Constitution, then our Wizard would be able to survive two nukes(16d8, avg. 72).

...

16D8.

...

This must be from D20 modern, musn't it? (A system that I once picked, open the the weapons page, looked at the damage and put back down with a derisive snort.) I mean, from context - you cite that like its RAW somewhere, and sadly, I would belive it - and I can't imagine it was talking about nuclear grenades or something, so presumably it something about full-sized nukes written by an actual person who was actually being paid to write a set of actual rules.

16D8. Really. A nuke deals less damage than immersion in lava.

*sigh*

3.x/D20 is good at a lot of things, but in terms on environmental damage and the like, the RAW has NO IDEA what it is on.

16D8 nukes has to be one the high top ten of the most stupid rules written in any D20 variant system, competing with the likes of the Tumbling Bolt from 3.0.

[Misery Esquire]

16D8 nukes has to be one the high top ten of the most stupid rules written in any D20 variant system, competing with the likes of the Tumbling Bolt from 3.0.

A level 16 Fighter is completely unphased by a maximum damage direct hit (16d2 health left over, anyway), or two average damage nuclear weapons. A level 20 Fighter is odds-on for taking three with good Constitution (But before other defences).

Uncertain if hilarious or depressing. Will need empirical testing.

Advent troopers thought XCOM Rangers were a problem with their swords, wait until they get a load of this guy waving around a pointy stick who can jog alongside Usain Bolt sprinting, can punch a building over, take a nap in a house fire, and will consider plasma grenades as much a problem as we do sunburn.

[Cikomyr]

Are you sure it's not just peripherial damage that is 16d8?

[Coidzor]

It's a 1-Megaton Fusion bomb. (http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/starships/starship.weapons/weapon.table.pl6.php) I can't say more than that about radiuses and different zones of effect, unfortunately.

Compare with a Singularity Grenade's (http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/equipment/energy.age.weapons.php) miniature black hole which deals 15d6 (avg. 52.5) damage in a small area.

My point, though, was more that by virtue of their HP system, they're tough just by virtue of being high level. 210 average HP for a Wizard with a +6 Constitution item and +5 Constitution from Wish means I was actually lowballing a bit there in my initial comment.

Well, so long as they're not converted into a wounds or vitality system or what have you.

It's obviously not the same weapon, but d20 future (http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/equipment/gravity.age.weapons.php) presents a Plasma Rifle as doing an average of 16.5 Fire damage(3d10) and a Plasma Pistol as 11 Fire damage (2d10). Shrapnel (http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/equipment/information.age.weapons.php)(frag) grenades are 17.5 (5d6) Slashing damage. Laser Rifles and Laser Pistols (http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/equipment/fusion.age.weapons.php) are 13.5 (3d8) and 9 (2d8) Fire respectively.

Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/technological-weapons/), on the other hand, characterizes a heavy plasma weapon as a 14 (4d6) Electricity and Fire damage weapon. Their Laser Rifle and Laser Pistol are 7 (2d6) and 4.5 (1d8) Fire damage respectively.

Mildly interesting to think about anyway, especially if one were to actually want to try to come up with some framework to attempt a ballpark napkin conversion.


I'm still not sure about where to draw the line between "Wizard auto-wins" and "Great advantage to whatever side wins them over," after thinking about it. I'm pretty sure after level 13, and access to Simulacrum, the Wizard has it in the bag, but I'm not sure how much lower level than that they can get, in a no-leveling scenario, they can be and still be guaranteed success in whatever they're trying for.

[GloatingSwine]

...
16D8 nukes has to be one the high top ten of the most stupid rules written in any D20 variant system, competing with the likes of the Tumbling Bolt from 3.0.


Well there's the Munchkin D20 version. 1000000D6 rolled seperately against every target in the blast radius.

[Aotrs Commander]

It's a 1-Megaton Fusion bomb. (http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/starships/starship.weapons/weapon.table.pl6.php) I can't say more than that about radiuses and different zones of effect, unfortunately.

Compare with a Singularity Grenade's (http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/equipment/energy.age.weapons.php) miniature black hole which deals 15d6 (avg. 52.5) damage in a small area.

My point, though, was more that by virtue of their HP system, they're tough just by virtue of being high level. 210 average HP for a Wizard with a +6 Constitution item and +5 Constitution from Wish means I was actually lowballing a bit there in my initial comment.

Well, so long as they're not converted into a wounds or vitality system or what have you.

It's obviously not the same weapon, but d20 future (http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/equipment/gravity.age.weapons.php) presents a Plasma Rifle as doing an average of 16.5 Fire damage(3d10) and a Plasma Pistol as 11 Fire damage (2d10). Shrapnel (http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/equipment/information.age.weapons.php)(frag) grenades are 17.5 (5d6) Slashing damage. Laser Rifles and Laser Pistols (http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/equipment/fusion.age.weapons.php) are 13.5 (3d8) and 9 (2d8) Fire respectively.

Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/technological-weapons/), on the other hand, characterizes a heavy plasma weapon as a 14 (4d6) Electricity and Fire damage weapon. Their Laser Rifle and Laser Pistol are 7 (2d6) and 4.5 (1d8) Fire damage respectively.

Mildly interesting to think about anyway, especially if one were to actually want to try to come up with some framework to attempt a ballpark napkin conversion.

Yeah.

Yeah. That is preeeetty much why I won't touch the D20 modern and future rules, because that is just... Silly. And bears no resemblence to anything, aside from the arbitary numbers that the guy wrote it made up. 1 megaton nukes being the same order of magnitude as human-scale weapon damage is nothing short of just farcical. Let us remember that the bombs dropped on Japan were in the order of 20 KILOtons - fifty times smaller than a one megaton.

(I had a quick look - I could not see anything in the rules there that indicated what happens if characters attack vehicles or vise-versa, which woud lead me to assume it is all the same value. Which does, in turn, indicate that the writers expected high-level characters to be able to destroy starships like they were dragons or something.)

Objectively, it is just flat wrong. Lava has a temperature of about 1200ºC and a nuclear explosion along the order of a hundred million degrees C. But lava is apparently hotter than the sun in D20 future, apparently. Like I say, farcical.

(Really, I mean even a single order of magnitude would have been quite sufficient for an RPG, which is what is so stupid. 16D8 x 10 would be plenty enough. But no.)

Star Wars and Stargate SG-1 are not quite as bad, as it least both make some attempt at scale. SW gives vehiclar weaponry multipliers (e.g. 5D10x5 for and ISD's turbolasers or something); SG-1 handles it better (with much larger statistics) - I just, to satisfy myself, just looked it up - but essentially models hits on human-sized targets as basically glancing blows unless you get a threat or a crit, in which case the extra damage is... Considerable. I saw a few plus multiple hundreds extra damage in there, enough to comfortably level pretty much any character. I don't think it's still high enough, personally, but it is a reasonable way to model it.)

I'm sorry; I promise I'll be (mostly) be quiet now and stop banging on about this, but it is SO STUPID I couldn't not comment on it.




Well there's the Munchkin D20 version. 1000000D6 rolled seperately against every target in the blast radius.

Which is probably about the right order of magnitude, actually, given the comparative damage a torch does. I mean it's gonna still be wrong, but its considerably less wrong.

That's embarrasing, when the parody system is actual more accurate then you (i.e. D20 Future/Modern) are.

[GloatingSwine]

Mildly interesting to think about anyway, especially if one were to actually want to try to come up with some framework to attempt a ballpark napkin conversion.

You don't need to become fancy. A Longbow is 1D8 damage, the arrows fired by a traditional English longbow had about 110J of energy (for comparison a Colt .45 is about 250).

1 kiloton is 4.1x10^12J

So roughly four hundred billion D8 at point of initiation.

Of course, that's only the energy released by the nuclear event, the actual effect on any given target are more about blast pressure waves etc.

[Aotrs Commander]

On the note of the nukes... Aren't those supposed to be used in space based ship to ship engagements? As in, NOT using characters on foot?



I recall that the rules for them you were supposed to multiply the damage by 10 when ship weapons hit someone using them, still kinda low ball though, but maybe they're using low end nuclear weapons or if you get skimmed by the blast radius.

You'd have thought so, wouldn't you?

I did look, and I couldn't see anything in the link. (I also would like to give Coidzor the benefit of the doubt *tips helmet* and would imagine he probably would have mentioned that if he's more than passingly familiar with the system (I'm - for obvious reasons - not familair at all) if it was anywhere fairly obvious.) It is, however entirely possible for both of us to have missed it, of course.

As I said, I'd find that an acceptable compromise (it's what I use in Rolemaster, for example for vehicle weapons). It's wrong, but it does at least achieve something of the effect, i.e. "no PC, you cannot tank a hit from a nuke."



Edit: also, hilariously, that means that a 5th level caster's Fireball is approximately a quarter-megaton explosion.

[Coidzor]

Unfortunately, the best I can do about there being a vehicle modifier is online forum posts of people arguing about whether there's a multiplier and if so whether it's x5, x10, or x100, as well as over what the damage dice for it actually are supposed to be. I've seen 20d10 and 10d20 thrown around as damage values, but 16d8 is the only one I could find even a tenuous source for, which I linked upthread.

I'm sorry I brought it up. :smallredface:

[Aotrs Commander]

Unfortunately, the best I can do about there being a vehicle modifier is online forum posts of people arguing about whether there's a multiplier and if so whether it's x5, x10, or x100, as well as over what the damage dice for it actually are supposed to be. I've seen 20d10 and 10d20 thrown around as damage values, but 16d8 is the only one I could find even a tenuous source for, which I linked upthread.

I'm sorry I brought it up. :smallredface:

No worries!

(In case it was not staggeringly obvious, my ire was never directed at you, but to whatever nitwit put pen to paper to commit that travesty of maths and modelling...!)

These things need to be brought light occasionally!

Though the fact that there does not appear to be a definite answer suggests that the main rules were probably not very clear about it - and may not have mention it at all (either because they didn't intend it or just never considered adding that one line).

(SW D20 wasn't overly clear, either, but when you look at the various DRs and hit points of the vehicles, it makes more sense that the multiplier means to the damage, not a critical hit.)

[tomandtish]

It's a 1-Megaton Fusion bomb. (http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/starships/starship.weapons/weapon.table.pl6.php) I can't say more than that about radiuses and different zones of effect, unfortunately....

Except those are specifically Starship weapons, and they are talking about them in Starship context. Starships combat uses the same mechanisms as PC combat (HP, etc.). so starships have HP as well, and these shouldn't be confused with character HP. So the damage listed is what those weapons will do to a starship, not a person.