Paladin/Warlock from Level 1

[Mr. Crowbar]

I'll be starting a game soon and I got a player who wants to be a Paladin/Warlock (oath of conquest & great old one). We're beginning at level 1. I suggested he go all the way to Paladin 6 before taking the rest of his levels in Warlock, but the player feels like this will be starting over and has some reservations about this. I've seen some other builds multiclass after Paladin 2, but how bad will delaying Extra Attack be?

So yeah, what's the most optimal path to build a Paladin/Warlock from level 1?

[Lombra]

It depends on what he's looking for. Does he wants the auras? Or does he simply want to refresh smites on short rests?

[Mr. Crowbar]

It depends on what he's looking for. Does he wants the auras? Or does he simply want to refresh smites on short rests?

He wants to be a heavy damage dealer so more smiting, most likely. He's taken Pole Arm Master as his variant human feat.

[rbstr]

If he takes Booming or Green Flame blade as one of his cantrips the delay of extra attack isn't a huge deal. But you can't use PAM's bonus action attack with those cantrips so I wouldn't delay extra attack more than 2 levels.
He can do that in three ways:
Pld 2 Warlock X - you can still get extra attack with the blade pact boon and invocation. You hit level 7 total, get level 3 slots and spells and extra attack all at the same time. That works fine.
Pld5/LockX - extra attack and then warlock. pretty simple.
Pld2/Lock 1 or 2/Pld3 - That'll get you extra attack from Paladin with a 1/2 level delay but get some warlock stuff in there early too.

After you get extra attack it's more flexible. Pld 6 (7, if Ancient in particular) is very strong. But more warlock has fun stuff too.
Even if you get extra attack through Bladelock there's no true "overlap" if you go to pld5 or more with extra attack unlike some multi-class setups. You can just trade the invocation for a different one.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd say Paladin 1/Warlock 1/Paladin +1/Warlock the rest of the way. You sort of need to start Paladin to get the heavy armor; then over to Warlock to pick up the casting and flavor, then back to Paladin for smite, then over to Warlock for the rest of it all. He's absolutely right not to want to wait until 6th level to start multiclassing; that's way too long to be missing half your concept. Polearm Master + smites should be plenty to tide him over for an extra level or two.

[Mr. Crowbar]

Thanks folks! Grod especially, you have some really good points there. I passed the info on to my player and he likes the idea of starting Paladin 2/ Warlock 2 and continuing Paladin to 5. He's not super keen on being a bladelock.

[Theodoxus]

That's exactly my plan for my Fey Palalock. Though I went Helf for the bennies. Pretty much a pure staff fighter, though I do have a warhammer and shield for when I need the added defense. The idea is he uses the staff for melee, and then mimes using it as a bow to shoot "force arrows" with Eldritch Blast. We're playing to 10, so needed to get the concept on board faster rather than later... Still not sure if Paladin 1 or 2 before Warlock 2 and then Paladin to 7 to finish up as Pal 7/War 3 (Tome).

There's a chance we'll go higher, given the DM - but only planning on 10...

[Slipperychicken]

I'd be very hesitant to bend rules unless there's a very clear lore idea that the player is trying to pursue which cannot be satisfied by other means.

Unless there's something specific he absolutely needs from warlock, I say just be a paladin or cleric. If he's just trying to be a dark knight, maybe let him be an oathbreaker, but let aura of hate apply to six or fewer allies instead of fiends and undead, and either let lay on hands refresh on a short rest, or replace lay on hands with short-rest replenishing smites. Naturally his smites should be doing necrotic instead of radiant.

[Lombra]

I'd be very hesitant to bend rules unless there's a very clear lore idea that the player is trying to pursue which cannot be satisfied by other means.

Unless there's something specific he absolutely needs from warlock, I say just be a paladin or cleric. If he's just trying to be a dark knight, maybe let him be an oathbreaker, but let aura of hate apply to six or fewer allies instead of fiends and undead, and either let lay on hands refresh on a short rest, or replace lay on hands with short-rest replenishing smites. Naturally his smites should be doing necrotic instead of radiant.

Hesitant to bend the rules? And then you propose a houserule? What? Which rules are being bent?

[Mr. Crowbar]

I'd be very hesitant to bend rules unless there's a very clear lore idea that the player is trying to pursue which cannot be satisfied by other means.

Unless there's something specific he absolutely needs from warlock, I say just be a paladin or cleric. If he's just trying to be a dark knight, maybe let him be an oathbreaker, but let aura of hate apply to six or fewer allies instead of fiends and undead, and either let lay on hands refresh on a short rest, or replace lay on hands with short-rest replenishing smites. Naturally his smites should be doing necrotic instead of radiant.

He's multiclassing, which is an optional rule I've chosen to allow. It's hardly bending anything.

That said, we've already refluffed his Paladin abilities so that they come from an eldritch patron instead of a divine god. He wants the tankiness and nova capability of a Paladin and Warlock helps cement the spoopy fluff while letting him smite more and get new toys to play with. His smites are dealing Necrotic damage and deal extra to Monstrosities and Aberrations rather than Undead and Fiends.

[Slipperychicken]

Hesitant to bend the rules? And then you propose a houserule? What? Which rules are being bent?

What I mean is to first figure out what lore idea the player wants. If all he's trying to do is minmax, then it's a nonstarter and he can use the rules as presented. If he really just wants to be some kind of spooky dark knight serving nasty powers, then I understand the rules don't support that as well as they should, and I'd be willing to modify the paladin class a bit to make that work better.

[rbstr]

And what we mean is there is no rule bending happening unless you count UA material as being rule-bending. It's a multiclass, it's in the rulebook.

He just wants to make sure that the play isn't going to gimp himself by delaying the Extra Attack feature.

[WickerNipple]

He just wants to make sure that the play isn't going to gimp himself by delaying the Extra Attack feature.

From my experience it doesn't really make that much of a difference. I'm an avid multi-classer and I always perfer to get all the classes early, just so the feel of the character is locked in from the beginning.

You'll barely even notice, especially for a character with smite and access to to melee cantrips.

[Citan]

I'll be starting a game soon and I got a player who wants to be a Paladin/Warlock (oath of conquest & great old one). We're beginning at level 1. I suggested he go all the way to Paladin 6 before taking the rest of his levels in Warlock, but the player feels like this will be starting over and has some reservations about this. I've seen some other builds multiclass after Paladin 2, but how bad will delaying Extra Attack be?

So yeah, what's the most optimal path to build a Paladin/Warlock from level 1?


He wants to be a heavy damage dealer so more smiting, most likely. He's taken Pole Arm Master as his variant human feat.
Considering his will and choice of feat, I'd say that getting Extra Attack is a given in the end build (otherwise, he could have safely ditched Extra Attack and use only weapon cantrips).
Now, he's right that waiting 6 levels is too harsh.
I'd say...
1. Paladin 1 (start proficiencies)
2. > Warlock 1 (weapon cantrip, good damage increase against several targets)
3. > Paladin 2 (so now you can Bless yourself for better damage)
4. > Warlock 2 (great ranged cantrip, another short rest slot). That's for the start, and making the gish nearly online.
Now, where to go from there for next three levels?
- Paladin will provide Extra Attack to go with Polearm Master. Command is already there, Armor of Agathys you can pick as Warlock for now (and swap later), Spiritual Weapon is great but will compete with Polearm Master. Basically the main benefit of Paladin is Extra Attack, and being closer to Aura of Protection.
- Warlock will provide more options (Tome Pact heavily advised), including better short rest slots and paired 3rd level spells. But there are not that many spells that would fit with your players's wish. Also, it delays Extra Attack much, up to a point you would get it at the time weapon cantrips become as good in average damage.

So, I'd suggest...
5. Warlock 3 (2nd level slots immediately usable with either know spells, or to upcast Paladin's spells, or for much better smiting). Take Tome Pact for Shillelagh (make yourself SAD with Polearm quarterstaff) and Thorns Whip (great paired with Spirit Guardians).
6. Paladin 3 (spells, CD, good but not that good XD).
7. Paladin 4 (finally, first ASI!! Bump CHA, no questions asked).
8. Paladin 5 (finally the Extra Attack. Also, all 2nd level spells, some of which are great: always have Aid prepared because you can wake up one hour and a half early, cast it on your friends, then take a short rest ;)).
9. Paladin 6 (now that you are there, might as well grab Aura of Protection).

Now for the third tier. Depends essentially on what player is interested into from Warlock side. If there is one spell from Warlock he really wants, go for it. Otherwise, going Paladin up to 9 first is by far the best way to go, because of Spirit Guardians.
And you still get a much wanted second ASI.
So...

10. Paladin 7 (Aura of Conquest, pretty nifty paired with Wrathful Smite and possibly later Fear from Warlock).
11. Paladin 8 (ASI: +2 CHA is a safe bet, otherwise Warcaster). Note that at that level, using weapon cantrips becomes nearly as good in average damage as Extra Attack + Polearm Master, and keep bonus action free for Spiritual Weapon).
12. Paladin 9 (now you can unleash Spirit Guardians).
13. Warlock 4 (ASI: Warcaster if you didn't take it yet, otherwise Sentinel).

Now for the remaining, depends mainly on which spell level player is gonna use his concentration on, and whether he tends to burn slots rather on smite. And whether they can take at least 2 short rests on a consistent basis.
If he's mainly using 2nd level slots (Spiritual Weapon, upcast Wrathful Smite?) and get at least 2 shorts rest per day, keeping Warlock at 4 for now is fine.

If he plans on using Spirit Guardians or Fear regularly, then getting Warlock 5 ASAP and keeping there to instead bump Paladin up to 12 is the best plan.

If he mainly uses smites, going up to Warlock 7 for maximum smites should be a priority.

In his stead, I'd probably get 2nd options, because you have many good 3rd level spells to use and it still allows you to get Improved Divine Smite not too far later.

So that's it for a leveling plan for your player.
Now for a hard suggestion I'd like to convey to him: drop Polearm Master and pick Warcaster as your starting feat instead. I see many advantages to it.

- Better damage on reaction attack (from level 2 onwards).
- MUCH MUCH easier casting (don't forget you are supposed to keep a hand free otherwise, since you cannot use the shield as a focus for Warlock spells anyways).
- MUCH BETTER casting (advantage on concentration checks).
- Because you don't get a feat that heavily gear the character towards Extra Attack, you have much more freedom to choose where to go step by step past the initial Paladin 2 / Warlock 2. Since, as said, weapon cantrips become competitive at character level 11 anyways (Extra Attack keeping its use mainly for nova smite against a single enemy). It does not prevent you to get Shillelagh to rely only on CHA either. :)
- And because Warcaster is pretty much needed anyways because of spellcasting rules, it frees one feat in your progression that you can spend elsewhere.
Furthermore, he would not really lose much damage-wise, since at lowest levels the effect from weapon cantrips would be close, and a bit later he could use Spiritual Weapon with Warlock slots.
The real big downside is having lesser number of attacks so lesser chance to hit at low level. Then again, using CHA from Shillelagh + Bless when needed should cover that.

Also, I'd consider Sentinel feat very seriously: deadly paired with Spirit Guardians, Warcaster and possibly Thorns Whip.

[rbstr]

Seems to be two degrees of getting away from the character concept there, if you want, I guess.

Sticking with PAM and strength is more than fine (one of the strongest options, really) and it'll let him pick whichever Pact Boon he wants when it comes time. If he wants to be sir-smites-alot all the hand wringing about bonus action usage isn't very important. Plus you can't smite with spiritual weapon.

[Citan]

Seems to be two degrees of getting away from the character concept there, if you want, I guess.

Sticking with PAM and strength is more than fine (one of the strongest options, really) and it'll let him pick whichever Pact Boon he wants when it comes time. If he wants to be sir-smites-alot all the hand wringing about bonus action usage isn't very important. Plus you can't smite with spiritual weapon.
True that. ;)

I'm sorry, I didn't realize the Polearm master was that strong a component of his character concept.
Then I guess my leveling suggestion is fine then, just swapping CHA bump with STR bump.

Have fun with your players ;)

[Mr. Crowbar]

The player really wants to mess around with Polearm Master after seeing someone else use it, I don't think there's any dissuading him from that. :P Sentinel is also on his list of feats to get.

But holy crap, thank you so much for the detailed analysis. I'd forgotten about Shillelagh on a tomelock. Would it be too much to houserule that it could work on glaives and halberds? Maybe not increase the damage die but allow the use of CHA.

[Lombra]

The player really wants to mess around with Polearm Master after seeing someone else use it, I don't think there's any dissuading him from that. :P Sentinel is also on his list of feats to get.

But holy crap, thank you so much for the detailed analysis. I'd forgotten about Shillelagh on a tomelock. Would it be too much to houserule that it could work on glaives and halberds? Maybe not increase the damage die but allow the use of CHA.

Shillelagh is very intended to work on wooden objects only, so unless you are making a wooden halberd I don't see it reasonable.

[djreynolds]

The difference between a 16 and 20 strength is 2

When I roll a paladin 16 strength is fine, charisma should be 20. You are still a spell caster and it affects your aura.

And if you wearing plate, your strength is 15 or 16 so really no reason to invest in using shillelagh, say like a druid who dumped strength.

BB/GFB coupled with the bless spell will carry you, plenty of damage there

As long as your character jives with the DM and other players.... its fine.

I think OoD and OoA couple well with undying light, tome, and chain.... I could see OoA using necrotic damage as inflicting negative energy on evil doers

And now with OoT and OoC or oathbreaker, you can throw a fiend in there

I think what "Slipperychicken" is saying.... it better fit together.

Your backstory better connect the dots and your patron and oath better be in "alignment", pardon the pun.

[Citan]

The difference between a 16 and 20 strength is 2

When I roll a paladin 16 strength is fine, charisma should be 20. You are still a spell caster and it affects your aura.

And if you wearing plate, your strength is 15 or 16 so really no reason to invest in using shillelagh, say like a druid who dumped strength.

BB/GFB coupled with the bless spell will carry you, plenty of damage there

As long as your character jives with the DM and other players.... its fine.

I think OoD and OoA couple well with undying light, tome, and chain.... I could see OoA using necrotic damage as inflicting negative energy on evil doers

And now with OoT and OoC or oathbreaker, you can throw a fiend in there

I think what "Slipperychicken" is saying.... it better fit together.

Your backstory better connect the dots and your patron and oath better be in "alignment", pardon the pun.
I strongly disagree here. +2 bonus to hit may seem not substantial, but it is actually in the second half of your leveling. +10% difference to hit is not a trifling thing when fighting creatures with high AC.
And OP's player does want to hit things as a priority, and hit them hard (smiting).
So he will want a +4 mod when he's around level 12 at most, and a +5 at 16.

Getting Shillelagh is not "mandatory" at all, among other things because it does eat a bit into action economy (although it's a bonus action, not really bad) but it does provide more room for feats since you have only one stat to boost to improve spell efficiency, auras and attack at the same time. Which as you said is important, because spells and aura are still an important aspect of such a multiclass, even if geared towards melee fighting. And it fits perfectly with Polearm Mastery too. ;)

Also, as a Paladin / Warlock multiclass with Shillelagh, you could also go with medium armor instead so you get a 16 DEX and 14 STR for better saves against AOE and Initiative (although it does eat into WIS stat if you want at least 14 CON) and better stealth. You lose 1 point of AC though (unless MAM) and 1 point of WIS save (probably) though.
So the easiest way is certainly to go STR + CHA for starting stats.

Now there is one thing that Blade Pact provides which is a strong benefit: magical weapon. But Shillelagh does that too so there is no loss here either.
There is another thing it provides, which is Extra Attack. But it's covered by Paladin. And Lifedrinker is very far away.

So Shillelagh is really a net gain whatever way you look at it, making Tome Pact the better choice. Unless considering UA Warlock pacts, which I'm not familiar with to have usable opinion. ;)


The player really wants to mess around with Polearm Master after seeing someone else use it, I don't think there's any dissuading him from that. :P Sentinel is also on his list of feats to get.

But holy crap, thank you so much for the detailed analysis. I'd forgotten about Shillelagh on a tomelock. Would it be too much to houserule that it could work on glaives and halberds? Maybe not increase the damage die but allow the use of CHA.


Shillelagh is very intended to work on wooden objects only, so unless you are making a wooden halberd I don't see it reasonable.
This, very much so.
The important thing is not so the die increase but rather the reach increase. It's a very significant boost to enable this with Shillelagh, especially if later player also gets Sentinel.

Also, crafting a "handmade" wooden glaive is imo a good tool for you as a DM to decide when it's balanced, and gives a much more sound implication of the player into his character's backstory: it becomes one of his goals in life if you mean, and then this hardly acquired weapon becomes one of the defining characteristics of his character, opening way to some new interactions and twists.

Furthermore, it's a great way to provide a quick, more laid-back (or not? XD) quest to fulfill between campaign missions...
- Either with the party, to make some teambuilding...
- Or alone, because the player group is hard to gather round often, so it's a way to keep the campaign strong in memory, both yours and the player's. ;)

[Mr. Crowbar]

I think what "Slipperychicken" is saying.... it better fit together.

Your backstory better connect the dots and your patron and oath better be in "alignment", pardon the pun.

I've been working with the player to make sure it all works. He doesn't know who his patron is so it's been on me to make sure it fits his Oath and Patron abilities, though I did nudge him into choosing Fiend instead of Great Old One. But yeah, the thematic link is definitely there!


Also, crafting a "handmade" wooden glaive is imo a good tool for you as a DM to decide when it's balanced, and gives a much more sound implication of the player into his character's backstory: it becomes one of his goals in life if you mean, and then this hardly acquired weapon becomes one of the defining characteristics of his character, opening way to some new interactions and twists.

Furthermore, it's a great way to provide a quick, more laid-back (or not? XD) quest to fulfill between campaign missions...
- Either with the party, to make some teambuilding...
- Or alone, because the player group is hard to gather round often, so it's a way to keep the campaign strong in memory, both yours and the player's. ;)

I'll keep this in mind! This will be my first time DMing so I'm sure at some point of the campaign I'll need a simple go-to goal like that. Magic items are going to be in short supply so getting one will definitely be quest worthy.

[Citan]

I'll keep this in mind! This will be my first time DMing so I'm sure at some point of the campaign I'll need a simple go-to goal like that. Magic items are going to be in short supply so getting one will definitely be quest worthy.
My Goodness! Good luck to you. DMing is no small job. XD
Don't hesitate to come and ask for help on the forums when needing advice on how to resolve a problem or where to take the story.

I suppose you did it already, but the most important thing is having a ground-0 session where you ask each and every player what he looks for in the game (thrilling fights? interesting social interactions? a feeling of having world-wide influence? etc). Also take that chance to disarm any potential rule ambiguity or conflict if you see any now. ^^

You can also have a look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?523522-Get-add-your-DM-tools-here!&highlight=DM) (tools), and this external tool (http://1-dot-encounter-planner.appspot.com/quick-monster-stats.html) too.
In fact there are many great threads discussing about important aspects of DMing, but I cannot find them. :/

[xen]

If you allow UA, they could do Hexblade instead of GOOlock. This would get rid of the mad issue and the need for Shillelagh and might be better fluffwise for a paladin, as making a deal with a matching alignment weapon might sound better than making a deal with a crazy alien. Plus that tasty tasty curse.

[Mr. Crowbar]

My Goodness! Good luck to you. DMing is no small job. XD
Don't hesitate to come and ask for help on the forums when needing advice on how to resolve a problem or where to take the story.

I suppose you did it already, but the most important thing is having a ground-0 session where you ask each and every player what he looks for in the game (thrilling fights? interesting social interactions? a feeling of having world-wide influence? etc). Also take that chance to disarm any potential rule ambiguity or conflict if you see any now. ^^

You can also have a look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?523522-Get-add-your-DM-tools-here!&highlight=DM) (tools), and this external tool (http://1-dot-encounter-planner.appspot.com/quick-monster-stats.html) too.
In fact there are many great threads discussing about important aspects of DMing, but I cannot find them. :/

Thank you! I've stalked this forum since I started playing last year, it's been soooo helpful. My players are people I currently play with, including the DM and another who DMs his own game, so I know what they like. I've warned them I want them to be more tactical in combat and will be imposing the proper rules for grappling, cover, spell components, etc that the other DMs chose to overlook/modify. 'Cause man, reading so much about grappling and control here makes me wish my DM hadn't nerfed it. But, if it turns out no one likes those rules, I'll scrub them and do things their way. My main worry is being able to live up to the hype the other two DMs have!


If you allow UA, they could do Hexblade instead of GOOlock. This would get rid of the mad issue and the need for Shillelagh and might be better fluffwise for a paladin, as making a deal with a matching alignment weapon might sound better than making a deal with a crazy alien. Plus that tasty tasty curse.

We looked at Hexblade and ultimately didn't like it. The CHA for weapon attacks wouldn't work with a 10' ranged polearm, and the other abilities and spell list are just eehhhh for the flavour the player wants.