What are Psions And How Do You Use Them?

[Jaxter Gronaldi]

I've been hearing about psions, mystics, and other jibber-jabber. Will someone please explain?

[Aett_Thorn]

https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UAMystic3.pdf

[Jaxter Gronaldi]

Thanks!(extra textra blegchhh)

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

Psionics is a system of science-fictiony "not-magic" that D&D has supported since at least... ooh, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. It's an attempt to present an alternative, more science fiction or weird fantasy take on metaphysical abilities; telekinesis and telepathy instead of fireballs and lightning bolts.

Unfortunately... it's long been the black sheep of D&D, due to a combination of having a hard time as selling itself as meaningfully different to magic and due to having greatly complicated rules. To put things in perspective, Gary Gygax himself would confess that he thought adding psionics was the worst thing he'd ever done to D&D, and that he thought the rules were too byzantine. When you take a look at Basic and Advanced D&D, that's saying something.

In AD&D, it was literally an entirely new magic system AND combat system combined, which is why that version has so much scorn heaped on it. Any character who had a psionic power was a psion.

In 3e, psionics functioned more or less like spellcasting, but with a unique "mana" system to power it. The classes were notoriously Multiple Ability Dependent and often boring besides. Psion was the primary psionics-using class in this edition.

In 4e, psionics finally had a simplified metric; they altered the standard class format, but did so by having only at-will and encounter powers whilst gaining access to a pool of mana, which could be spent to augment at-will powers. In this edition, the psion was the Psionic Controller, using telekinesis, telepathy and ectoplasmic constructs to hit multiple foes or manipulate their position on the battlefield.

The 5e version, the Mystic, was linked further upthread.

[Unoriginal]

Psionics is a system of science-fictiony "not-magic" that D&D has supported since at least... ooh, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.

Should be noted that in 5e it's just a different system of magic.

Never really got why it was thought as more "science-fictiony", though. Moving things with your mind isn't more science-fiction than casting a spell.

[qube]

In 3e, psionics functioned more or less like spellcasting, but with a unique "mana" system to power it. The classes were notoriously Multiple Ability Dependent and often boring besides. Psion was the primary psionics-using class in this edition.no clue what you're talking about.
3.5 psion was basically a mana-based wizard (not really M.A.D.)
3.0 psion was exceptionally single ability dependenant: the only reason wizards have high intelligence, is because they need it for spellcasting - other then that, it's not really a useful stat (unless you go for skills). Oppositely, in 3.0 there were 6 psions: each for every stat.
You haven't seen single ability dependency, untill you see a STR 8 DEX 8 CON 36 INT 8 WIS 8 CHA 8, kick *ss Psychokinesist

[Jaxter Gronaldi]

I'm now confused about psionic talents. I know this may be somewhat fustrating

[Naanomi]

Psionics got co-opted flavorwise by sorcery, as it was often used to represent 'inborn' supernatural ability rather than magic which was studied or granted by the Gods

[Temperjoke]

Should be noted that in 5e it's just a different system of magic.

Never really got why it was thought as more "science-fictiony", though. Moving things with your mind isn't more science-fiction than casting a spell.

I think it's mostly because mental powers like this are used more often in modern/futuristic media as opposed to medieval fantasy style media. You're right though, it's not really science-fiction reliant.

[Naanomi]

I think it's mostly because mental powers like this are used more often in modern/futuristic media as opposed to medieval fantasy style media. You're right though, it's not really science-fiction reliant.
Well plus it has all the 'magic' filed off... material (and to a degree, other) components of classic 'spellcasting' removed... reliance on crystals and other more modern mysticism aspects instead

[Vaz]

no clue what you're talking about.
3.5 psion was basically a mana-based wizard (not really M.A.D.)
3.0 psion was exceptionally single ability dependenant: the only reason wizards have high intelligence, is because they need it for spellcasting - other then that, it's not really a useful stat (unless you go for skills). Oppositely, in 3.0 there were 6 psions: each for every stat.
You haven't seen single ability dependency, untill you see a STR 8 DEX 8 CON 36 INT 8 WIS 8 CHA 8, kick *ss Psychokinesist

Mostly true, although Int was the god stat, like Dex is 5e god stat, and Str is the 5e dump compared to Charisma. Allowing multiclassing, and doing stuff that's decidedly not combat, extra languages was all within Int. And it boosted Knowledge Checks. Knowledge checks gave you info you need about the monster which combined with Divination (the best lore) meant that with a single spell and a +20 to Knowledge checks meant that you knew a lot about the monsters capabilities. Essentially free license to metagame in character.

[Anonymouswizard]

Never really got why it was thought as more "science-fictiony", though. Moving things with your mind isn't more science-fiction than casting a spell.

I agree, while I know psychic powers/psionics appear a lot of science fiction, but I always saw it as bleedover from fantasy. I always saw the artificier as a more science-fictiony spellcaster, I mean they basically work with devices (magic items), including quickly making short lived ones as well as crafting long lived versions. If that's not a fantasy engineer than I don't know what is.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

It's science-fictiony in that "I read your mind/make you think what I want you to think/move stuff with my thoughts" appears in things like Star Wars and Star Trek, but "I hurl fireballs and lightning" doesn't.

Psionics can be flavored as a natural evolution of humanity's mental talents. Magic is clearly the stuff of fantasy.

This sort of thinking was particularly common in the 60s and 70s, when D&D had its roots, but don't forget, people today still believe in ESP and telekinesis and telepathy, but say you believe that speaking the right words will let you shoot lightning bolts out of your fingers and they'll think you're nuts.

[Vaz]

It's science-fictiony in that "I read your mind/make you think what I want you to think/move stuff with my thoughts" appears in things like Star Wars and Star Trek, but "I hurl fireballs and lightning" doesn't.
Force lightning is a thing and Detect Thoughts is a spell.

What?

[Millstone85]

Force lightning is a thing and Detect Thoughts is a spell.

What?Also, from the Mystic UA:
Hungry Lightning (1–7 psi). As an action, you lash out at one creature you can see within 60 feet of you with tendrils of lightning. The target must make a Dexterity saving throw, with disadvantage if it’s wearing heavy armor. The target takes 1d8 lightning damage per psi point spent on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

[raygun goth]

The style of spellcasting where you wave your hands and chant magical spells is actually very modern - it became popular in the late 19th Century as part of the practices that spiritualists and claimed mediums used to distract their marks.

The mystic's method of casting spells is very similar in appearance to the European practice of Charisms, the yogic practices of Vedic India, and the methodology of Chinese alchemists (which is why I suspect the Wu Jen can be found in the mystic's subclasses).

[Cybren]

The style of spellcasting where you wave your hands and chant magical spells is actually very modern - it became popular in the late 19th Century as part of the practices that spiritualists and claimed mediums used to distract their marks.

The mystic's method of casting spells is very similar in appearance to the European practice of Charisms, the yogic practices of Vedic India, and the methodology of Chinese alchemists (which is why I suspect the Wu Jen can be found in the mystic's subclasses).

Sure, but Psionics were often rife with modern scientific language and lingo. It's undeniable that using names like "psychokinesis" or "extra sensory perception" makes something feel more modern and less fantastic, even if it is literally a fantastic concept.

[Anonymouswizard]

It's science-fictiony in that "I read your mind/make you think what I want you to think/move stuff with my thoughts" appears in things like Star Wars and Star Trek, but "I hurl fireballs and lightning" doesn't.

Detect Thoughts/Dominate Person/Telekinesis. Three classic wizard spells. In addition I've seen plenty of pyrokinetics and a few lightning manipulators among literary psychics.

Actually, I've think I've seen more mages reading minds than throwing fireballs.


Psionics can be flavored as a natural evolution of humanity's mental talents. Magic is clearly the stuff of fantasy.

Magic can be flavoured as the natural evolution of mankind's technology and processing power (and is in some fantasy stories), while psionics can also be a mystical thing that a few people have. While the first statement is fine the second is taking a very narrow view of literature.


This sort of thinking was particularly common in the 60s and 70s, when D&D had its roots, but don't forget, people today still believe in ESP and telekinesis and telepathy, but say you believe that speaking the right words will let you shoot lightning bolts out of your fingers and they'll think you're nuts.

If you told me that you had ESP, telekinesis, or telepathy I'd think you're nuts (I'd also do so if you told me you can heal people by speaking to a deity), but people are free to believe whatever they want and I will rarely comment on it (after, there's a slight chance they do have ESP, much more than the Earth being flat).

[Millstone85]

There seems to have been several approaches to the fluff of psionics.
* Psionics as distinct from magic. The first (https://dnd.wizards.com/sites/default/files/media/upload/articles/Psionics.pdf) and second (https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/Psionics_and_Mystic_V2.pdf) mystic UAs both said that "psionics and magic are two distinct forces".
* Psionics as distinct from the Weave. To quote SCAG, "how these abilities are related to the Weave remains a matter of debate".
* Psionics as distinct from spellcasting. The third (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UAMystic3.pdf) and most recent mystic UA instead says that "psionics is a special form of magic use, distinct from spellcasting".

That's in 5e's development alone, to say nothing of past editions.

And it has consequences on crunch. As Jeremy Crawford confirmed when I asked (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/03/14/so-now-counterspell-wouldnt-work-against-a-psionic-effect-but-antimagic-field-would-work/), the current version has it that you can't counterspell a psionic effect but you can antimagic it. There is also the special case where the final product of a psionic effect is in fact a spell.

I think UA is going in the right direction. First, published 5e already has the notion that not all magical effects are spells. Secondly, mystics/psions often get compared to Force users in Star Wars, but when I read...
Raw magic is the stuff of creation, the mute and mindless will of existence, permeating every bit of matter and present in every manifestation of energy throughout the multiverse. [...] By any name, without the Weave, raw magic is locked away and inaccessible; the most powerful archmage can't light a candle with magic in an area where the Weave has been torn. it reminds me of...
The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together. so any version of psionics that steps away from that is going to lose that appeal in my opinion.

Now, does D&D need this not-magic or not-spellcasting? I think it really boils down to the setting. In Dark Sun, where arcane magic has become corrupted, psionics being a safe substitute is a major plot point. In other settings, your mystic might just be seen as an unusual kind of wizard, if people can even recognize what is unusual about them.

[Unoriginal]

It's science-fictiony in that "I read your mind/make you think what I want you to think/move stuff with my thoughts" appears in things like Star Wars and Star Trek, but "I hurl fireballs and lightning" doesn't.

Actually hurling lightning does happen in Star Wars (which is Space Fantasy, btw, not Science Fiction), while I'm pretty sure hurling fireballs did happen in Star Trek.




Now, does D&D need this not-magic or not-spellcasting? I think it really boils down to the setting. In Dark Sun, where arcane magic has become corrupted, psionics being a safe substitute is a major plot point. In other settings, your mystic might just be seen as an unusual kind of wizard, if people can even recognize what is unusual about them.

I think it's a good thing that not *all* of magic is spellcasting. Sure, your average person won't be able to tell the difference between a Wizard and a Mystic, but I think it makes magic seems ...wider, less exist-only-to-be-used-by-people, if you get what I mean.



Also, from the Mystic UA:

AKA the very hungry lightning pillar

[Anonymouswizard]

There seems to have been several approaches to the fluff of psionics.
* Psionics as distinct from magic. The first (https://dnd.wizards.com/sites/default/files/media/upload/articles/Psionics.pdf) and second (https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/Psionics_and_Mystic_V2.pdf) mystic UAs both said that "psionics and magic are two distinct forces".
* Psionics as distinct from the Weave. To quote SCAG, "how these abilities are related to the Weave remains a matter of debate".
* Psionics as distinct from spellcasting. The third (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UAMystic3.pdf) and most recent mystic UA instead says that "psionics is a special form of magic use, distinct from spellcasting".

That's in 5e's development alone, to say nothing of past editions.

For previous editions:
1e and 2e: psionics and magic are different, end of.
3.X: psionics are similar enough to magic that Dispel Magic works.
4e: psionics are a kind of magic (and also cool).
5e: as above.


And it has consequences on crunch. As Jeremy Crawford confirmed when I asked (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/03/14/so-now-counterspell-wouldnt-work-against-a-psionic-effect-but-antimagic-field-would-work/), the current version has it that you can't counterspell a psionic effect but you can antimagic it. There is also the special case where the final product of a psionic effect is in fact a spell.

I think UA is going in the right direction. First, published 5e already has the notion that not all magical effects are spells. Secondly, mystics/psions often get compared to Force users in Star Wars, but when I read... it reminds me of... so any version of psionics that steps away from that is going to lose that appeal in my opinion.

In my view it should just be different ways to do magical stuff, and the creation of magic items should be the same. Someone who sees someone create fire with their mind will think 'magician' no matter if the user prayed to a god, waved their arms about while shouting, or thought really hard.


Now, does D&D need this not-magic or not-spellcasting? I think it really boils down to the setting. In Dark Sun, where arcane magic has become corrupted, psionics being a safe substitute is a major plot point. In other settings, your mystic might just be seen as an unusual kind of wizard, if people can even recognize what is unusual about them.

Arcane magic on Athas isn't corrupted, it's just that for whatever reason the power sources it would normally draw on aren't there. Therefore the version developed used plant life to generate the power when a spell was cast, even a Preserver uses plant life for this spells (he just learns how to put that life back when he's done, and later on can theoretically multiply it with a certain spell). It's like divine magic is still divine magic, it's just drawn from the elemental planes (or a Sorcerer King) rather than a god.

But I agree that 90% of the time the difference between 'wizard' and 'mystic' in setting will be purely academic.

[Millstone85]

I'm now confused about psionic talents. I know this may be somewhat fustratingTalents are exactly like cantrips, except they are psionic effects instead of spells. This is the least innovative part of the UA, just renaming an existing concept, which might paradoxically be the source of your confusion.

Then disciplines are akin to 1st-to-9th-level spells. The big difference is that a discipline isn't 1st-level or 9th-level. It is all about how much energy you pour into it, like a 1st-level spell that would have completely different effects when upcast as a 9th-level spell. Or you could regard each discipline as a package of spell-like abilities of various levels.

The energy itself comes in the form of psi points instead of spell slots. This gives more flexibility.

The newest concept is that of a psychic focus. When you know a psionic discipline, just know it, you can adopt a particular stance associated with it. That doesn't cost you anything, not even your concentration, but you can only use one at a time. Edit: Well, shifting between stances does take a bonus action.


I think it's a good thing that not *all* of magic is spellcasting. Sure, your average person won't be able to tell the difference between a Wizard and a Mystic, but I think it makes magic seems ...wider, less exist-only-to-be-used-by-people, if you get what I mean.I think I do, and I agree.


Arcane magic on Athas isn't corrupted, it's just that for whatever reason the power sources it would normally draw on aren't there. Therefore the version developed used plant life to generate the power when a spell was cast, even a Preserver uses plant life for this spells (he just learns how to put that life back when he's done, and later on can theoretically multiply it with a certain spell). It's like divine magic is still divine magic, it's just drawn from the elemental planes (or a Sorcerer King) rather than a god.Interesting. Has it been theorized that arcane spellcasting always stole or borrowed from living organisms, and there just used to be so much life on Athas that it went unnoticed?

[Anonymouswizard]

Interesting. Has it been theorized that arcane spellcasting always stole or borrowed from living organisms, and there just used to be so much life on Athas that it went unnoticed?

From what I remember, originally there was no magic, the psionics appeared and became excepted. Then a psion discovered arcane magic that fed off of life (and arcane magic has always done this in Athas, although other energy sources are possible), and that it could be used either putting back enough lifeforce that it made no difference, or with no care for if the plants survived. There's a bit of story about how the original arcane magic was preserving, then defilers convinced people that the preservers weren't helping them, the so on and so forth to 'modern Athas', where both are known by the important people, illegal wizards can be either defilers or preservers, but only defilers can get the backing of a Sorcerer King and legally practice magic.

FWIW, yes, there was a period where at least nonwizards didn't know arcane magic used life energy, because the only wizards around were preservers. This just doesn't matter to modern Athas (which could return to having lots of plant life, but legal preserving would undermine the SK's power bases).

I like Dark Sun enough that I've considered running it with most systems, and think I'm going to use Savage Worlds for my next game. Cut out elemental priests and Templars, and restrict magic to Psionics, Preserving, and Defiling. Templars are simply defilers legally allowed to practice magic.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I look at it as a different form of accessing magic. Compare it to the sorcerer, who has an inborn connection with magic, and wizards, who have studied how to manipulate magical forces. Psions can either study their methods or be born with it, but the most important thing is that they've discovered how to utilize the magic intrinsic in themselves rather than access it outwardly. While you'd think this would be innately less powerful, total control of your mind, body, and soul can lead to an extraordinary strength all its own. And you can pick up how to manipulate these same forces in other creatures in objects.

This works pretty well in 5e so far, where the Mystic is powerful early but eventually gets outshone by full casters. I like to think that's a design feature, not a bug.

[Sigreid]

I'd always considered the dividing line is psionics is tapping into your own inner power while magic is channeling an external power.

[Millstone85]

psionics appeared and became excepted. Then a psion discovered arcane magicThe first two mystic UAs described psionics as being more common in "worlds where the bounds of reality have been twisted and warped", using Athas as an example. But if psionics were widespread before arcane magic messed everything up, that doesn't work. Well, it might be one of the reasons why the third UA has abandoned that notion.


I look at it as a different form of accessing magic. Compare it to the sorcerer, who has an inborn connection with magic, and wizards, who have studied how to manipulate magical forces. Psions can either study their methods or be born with it, but the most important thing is that they've discovered how to utilize the magic intrinsic in themselves rather than access it outwardly. While you'd think this would be innately less powerful, total control of your mind, body, and soul can lead to an extraordinary strength all its own. And you can pick up how to manipulate these same forces in other creatures in objects.
I'd always considered the dividing line is psionics is tapping into your own inner power while magic is channeling an external power.I really like the body-mind-&-soul angle, and its contrast with the power of words, gestures and substances. Still, in the end, both psionicists and spellcasters are connected to ambient magic, and possibly both through the Weave.

[Naanomi]

2e and 3e FR fluff on the matter says that psionics is the art of creating your own 'personal weave' (through natural talent and intense meditation) to access the extraplanar energies that create magical effects. It can be dispelled and the like, but works in 'no-magic zones' that exist in areas that lack access to either the weave or shadow-weave

[Anonymouswizard]

The first two mystic UAs described psionics as being more common in "worlds where the bounds of reality have been twisted and warped", using Athas as an example. But if psionics were widespread before arcane magic messed everything up, that doesn't work. Well, it might be one of the reasons why the third UA has abandoned that notion.

Athas was messed up before psionics appeared, but it's unclear how much and exactly how widespread it was before magic, but certainly enough to have schools dedicated to it. Very little of the twisting from magic is the bounds of reality, it's mostly ecological.

But Athas has been screwed up for a long time. It's ethereal plane and plane of shadows are weird, and there's practically no connection to the astral plane at all. It's not normal, but the 2e version was still part of the great wheel through. No clue about 4e Dark Sun, the original 2e box set is my love.

[Millstone85]

By the way, I really really like that picture.

http://www.giantitp.com/Images/CafePress2013/Psionics.png

2e and 3e FR fluff on the matter says that psionics is the art of creating your own 'personal weave' (through natural talent and intense meditation) to access the extraplanar energies that create magical effects. It can be dispelled and the like, but works in 'no-magic zones' that exist in areas that lack access to either the weave or shadow-weaveThis makes for a satisfactory "my own power", while still fitting with how magic works in the setting.

How would psionics be affected by a "wild-magic zone"?


Athas was messed up before psionics appeared, but it's unclear how much and exactly how widespread it was before magic, but certainly enough to have schools dedicated to it. Very little of the twisting from magic is the bounds of reality, it's mostly ecological.

But Athas has been screwed up for a long time. It's ethereal plane and plane of shadows are weird, and there's practically no connection to the astral plane at all. It's not normal, but the 2e version was still part of the great wheel through. No clue about 4e Dark Sun, the original 2e box set is my love.Okay so I must be missing connections between events and assuming others that don't exist. I should just go read a timeline of Athas.

[Ralanr]

Imo 5e finally got psionics right when it comes to separating them from magic.

Shame in that the stance system could work well on martials too.

[Naanomi]

How would psionics be affected by a "wild-magic zone"?.
In general uneffected. The general trend was universal effects (like 'zones') don't hit psionics; but targeted effects (like 'dispel magic') did. There were some exceptions... both magic and psionics shut down when you get close to the spire in the Outlander for example... but as a general rule it worked to think of it that way

[furby076]

According to jeremy crawford:
If the effect says "spells" it does not impact psionics
If the affect says "magic" it does impact psionics

Note, while "dispel magic" says magic in the name, the description refers to spells. So does not impact psionics. Anti magic aura, however, does impact psionics

Its that 'simple' :)

------------
So, magic is overarching. Within magic are two branches (so far): magic and psionics. In magic we have all the core classes, magic items, spells, etc that we know. In psionics we only have UA, but more will eventually come out. UA is just a preview. Expect to see feats, psionic subclasses for other classes, psionics equipment, etc in the upcoming book

In 2e, defilers and preservers did progress differently. Defilers progressed faster.

[Millstone85]

Shame in that the stance system could work well on martials too.I would have given stances to fighters from the get-go. Since that's not the case, I am now hoping for a psionic fighter subclass with an emphasis on stances and no fear to go anime. Something similar could be done with rogues too.


In general uneffected.Thank you. This interests me because I play in a post-not-quite-Sundering campaign where both the Spellplague and psionics are sort of lurking in the background.


So, magic is overarching. Within magic are two branches (so far): magic and psionics.Magic is divided between psionics and magic? That would be a confusing way to put it.


Psionics is a special form of magic use, distinct from spellcasting.
According to jeremy crawford:
If the effect says "spells" it does not impact psionics
If the affect says "magic" it does impact psionicsMagic is divided between psionics and spellcasting.

A third division of magic would be the ki used by monks. But I am crossing my fingers for the final multiclassing-ready version of the mystic class replacing psi points with ki points.