I need help creating a psionic gish

[Baby Gary]

Hi All,
For an upcoming campaign that I am I was thinking of playing a psionic gish, but I don't know where to start. I have never played anything psionic character before and I have limited experience with playing gishes. I am thinking of trying to go into ithilid slayer for the obvious reasons (BAB, psionic advancement, and immunities). I am think I might be able to convince my DM to let Human Paragon advance psionic stuff so that could I could get the BAB faster to get into ithilid slayer faster.

Build specifics: 5th level, 5th level WBL, 28 point buy, most sources allowed (not too much cheese though), no house rules that I am aware of.

Original idea: Psion 1/ human paragon 3/ Ranger (for BAB and track along with other cool things) 1/ Ithid slayer 10/ ??? 5

I am open to any suggestion about, what I should do, and any thing about my build. I would really love any help what so ever in ideas for this character and...well anything about it. Thank you.

BG

[atemu1234]

Well, the main problems with Psionic gishes are always going to be the lost of manifester levels because of the need to increase base attack bonus. To phrase it a way I phrased it to one of my players, you're trading away your phenomenal cosmic powers to be able to swing a pointy metal stick. Illithid Slayer is probably the only way to go about this, though dipping mindbender for telepathy is probably also a good idea.

[Zakerst]

So you could just go with the psionic gish in a can with psychic warrior and call it a day, but that's probably not what you're looking for is it?

[Nifft]

You can get into the Slayer PrC in a few different ways:

Psion 8 / Slayer ++
- Lose 1 feat to Track.
- You lose 1 Manifester level to Slayer.
- Enter Slayer at character level 9.

Ranger 1 / Psion 6 / Slayer ++
- Ranger first to max the larger HD, and get more overall skill points.
- You lose 1 Manifester level to Ranger, and one to Slayer.
- Enter Slayer at character level 8.

Ranger 2 / Psion 4 / Slayer ++
- You lose 2 Manifester levels to Ranger, and one to Slayer.
- Get 1 bonus feat (combat style).
- Enter Slayer at character level 7.


You can get into Slayer by using Ardent instead of Psion:

Ardent 6 / Slayer ++
- Lose 1 feat to Track.
- You lose 1 Manifester level to Slayer.

Ranger 1 / Ardent 4 / Slayer ++
- You lose 1 Manifester levels to Ranger, and 1 to Slayer.
- This is probably the fastest entry into Slayer.

[Baby Gary]

would you suggest I just go psion (or other manifesting base class) X (where X=how many level I need for bab +4) and then go into ithilid slayer?

I think that could work, also I could add ranger 1 in there somewhere to get track and the +1 bab, ranger has a lot of great ACF so that could work

[danielxcutter]

Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Psion(Egoist) 4 is also viable. Track as bonus feat, bonus Fighter feat, and a few other things.

Fighter 2/Psion(Nomad) 4 is possible, but perhaps a bit suboptimal. However, Nomads can use Levitate, Psionic on other people as well(the general version can't), Survival is a Nomad class skill, and they get a few powers that other Psions either get later, or just don't. Such as Fly, Psionic, Teleport, Psionic, and Dimension Swap. The two Fighter bonus feats are the cherry on the top. I advise to take a grain of salt with this though; this is how I made one of my current characters so there might be some bias in there.

[Baby Gary]

You can get into the Slayer PrC in a few different ways:

Psion 8 / Slayer ++
- Lose 1 feat to Track.
- You lose 1 Manifester level to Slayer.
- Enter Slayer at character level 9.

Ranger 1 / Psion 6 / Slayer ++
- Ranger first to max the larger HD, and get more overall skill points.
- You lose 1 Manifester level to Ranger, and one to Slayer.
- Enter Slayer at character level 8.

Ranger 2 / Psion 4 / Slayer ++
- You lose 2 Manifester levels to Ranger, and one to Slayer.
- Get 1 bonus feat (combat style).
- Enter Slayer at character level 7.


You can get into Slayer by using Ardent instead of Psion:

Ardent 6 / Slayer ++
- Lose 1 feat to Track.
- You lose 1 Manifester level to Slayer.

Ranger 1 / Ardent 4 / Slayer ++
- You lose 1 Manifester levels to Ranger, and 1 to Slayer.
- This is probably the fastest entry into Slayer.

thanks @Nifft, once again you have multiple good build stubs and I think I will take one of them. You helped my with this and with a bard idea a bit ago, saddly that bard will never see the light of day. Here, have a cookie for your helphttp://www.greatamericancookies.com/app/themes/greatamericancookies/library/images/home/carousel3.png

Anyway I am leaning towards Ranger 1/ Psion 6/ Slayer ++. I need to take a look at ardent to see what I think of that though. I have a couple questions though, 1) what would be a good race?, 2) what should my base abilities be? (28 point buy), 3) what items should I try to get, and 4) what skills are important for psionic people.

Thank you for you help! BG

[danielxcutter]

Elans are a great race for psionic gish builds. Even without making a King of Smack build, they have bonus PP and several defensive racial abilities, as well as having Favored Class: Psion. Humans are also great for any build.

Put at least a 15 into your manifesting stat and put all your level up bonuses into there - preferably higher if you can spare the points.

You should also have a 13 in Wis, to qualify for Psionic Meditation. The feat allows you to regain your psionic focus as a move action instead of a full-round action. Combine with Hustle for profit.

Unless you want to be a ranged build or use a finessable weapon, your Dex can be left at a 10. Strength and Constitution are important for any frontliner. Charisma can be dumped safely.

Items... well, Cognizance Crystals are PP batteries, so they're always good to have. Deep Crystal weapons are a must have if you can afford one. So is the Torc of Power Preservation.

Pump Concentration to the max, no exceptions. Putting ranks in Psicraft and Autohypnosis(if it's a class skill or you have Able Learner) are also good.

[Nifft]

thanks @Nifft, once again you have multiple good build stubs and I think I will take one of them. You helped my with this and with a bard idea a bit ago, saddly that bard will never see the light of day. Here, have a cookie for your helphttp://www.greatamericancookies.com/app/themes/greatamericancookies/library/images/home/carousel3.png

Anyway I am leaning towards Ranger 1/ Psion 6/ Slayer ++. I need to take a look at ardent to see what I think of that though. I have a couple questions though, 1) what would be a good race?, 2) what should my base abilities be? (28 point buy), 3) what items should I try to get, and 4) what skills are important for psionic people.

Thank you for you help! BG

Delighted to help.

Having one Ranger level is nice because even with just one level, you add all Ranger spells to your Wand-list. This means you can use CLW wands (but sadly not lesser vigor).

In addition to Slayer, you may want to consider the Sanctified Mind PrC (in Lords of Madness). It's a 6-level class which gives full BAB and 5/6 manifester progression. Very similar entry requirements to Slayer -- BAB +4, some skills, and the Iron Will feat (hello Otyugh Hole).

In terms of race, my default is generally Silverbrow Human. Build with that, and then see if you can do better with a different race.

Some thoughts on other races:
- Kalashtar (from Eberron) get +1 pp per character level. That adds up. They also get nice social skill perks -- better for a Telepath / face or an Egoist / infiltrator, and both Telepaths & Egoists are good gishes. There are Telepath racial sub levels, and the 3rd & 5th level subs are good.
- Changeling (from Eberron) has 3 decent racial sub levels for Egoist (in Races of Eberron). The level 5 trade is great -- you trade 1 feat for 4 specific powers known. Also, as a changeling, you're very well-suited to being a deceptive shape-shifter.
- Elan (from XPH) is okay. For a gish, it has some nice features -- but Aberration perks like the Rapidstrike feat work a lot better on a PsyWar base, since they have access to Claws of the Beast and such. The major perks are Resilience and Resistance. Find out if you can use Resistance after you roll. You ought to be able to, and spending 1 point when you know it will help is a lot better than spending 1 point when you hope it might help. This is a question for your DM. There are feats in Comp Psi to make these racial features better.
- Warforged (from Eberron, again) - take Mithral Plating and be a Shaper or Egoist.

There's a good ACF for Egoists here: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a
You get the Change Shape ability from Changelings. This means you can be a Human instead of a Warforged when it's more convenient. You can pretend that your Warforged body is some kind of magical power.

There's an awesome ACF for Shapers here: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a
You get to create a Personal Construct, which means you can expend your Psionic Focus as a Swift action to cast astral construct for free (!!!) but you have to make your menu choices in advance. Free astral constructs all day. This is amazing.


You may want to take the Hidden Talent feat at level 1. This makes you Psionic even when you're just a Ranger, which is nice for backstory reasons, and it also gives you a level 1 power from any list. Remember how I was saying nice things about claws of the beast? You can have it. Psi charm? It's yours even if you're not a Telepath. Psi minor creation? Sure, it's a level 4 spell for a Wizard, you can have it at level 1.

(Obviously don't take a power from your own Discipline, you'll get those at level 2.)


The basic minimum Gish package, which every Psion can do by level 3:
- Feat: Psicrystal Affinity
- Powers: Share Pain, Vigor

What you do: before combat, manifest Share Pain on yourself, sending half the damage you take to your Psicrystal. Then, manifest Vigor, sharing the effect with your Psicrystal, so both of you get a bunch of temporary hit points. This setup means each PP spent on Vigor buys you 10 HP worth of buffer (5 on you, 5 on your Psicrystal).


The Psionic version of [Reserve] feats (requires Magic of Incarnum):
- Feats: Azure Talent (MoI), Psicarnum Infusion (MoI)
- Desirable Feat: Psionic Meditation (XPH)

What it does: when you expend your Psionic Focus on Psicarnum Infusion, you get to treat Azure Talent as if it were full of Essentia. WTF do any of those words mean? For every 1 Essentia in Azure Talent, you get 2 power points. So when you expend your Psionic Focus at level 3, you get 2 power points.
•*Are these power points "temporary PP" somehow?
•*If you do this, spend the PP, and then do it again, do you get more PP?
•*Ask your DM. At my table, you DO get new PP if you spend & re-expend, and this is how Psionic characters keep up with [Reserve] feat casters.

If it does work, then you may want Shape Soulmeld (MoI) too. This gives you a place to stick the point of Essentia that came with Azure Talent, and you can do stuff like teleport all day, or you can get Uncanny Dodge (+ Evasion later), or -- well anyway, it's a cool feat. There are threads about it.


Earth Power (from Races of Stone) is very nice. You need Earth Sense (also RoS) to get it. What it does: when you're standing on the ground, all your powers cost 1 point less, to a minimum of 1 point.


Note: You can use bestow power to refill your power pool and thereby break the game. Don't do this. I ban bestow power entirely.

[danielxcutter]

What you want, need, or can use is also a problem, but in general Nifft's advice is on the spot.

Do note a few things, though:


Does your DM use the CPsi nerfs? Shapers got hit the worst; you can only have one Astral Construct at a time(unless you have a PrC that can break that rule, which is in guess what, CPsi), and the damaging powers like Crystal Shard are now effected by DR. These are part of the reason the book got lots of hate; casters don't have any of these limits. They're not crippling, though, and the gems in there are far more than worth it.


Egoists can also have an ACF that swaps their 5th level bonus psionic feat for full access to the Life mantle. It's called True Healer, and it's good enough to allow you to be the primary healer if you wish, though Clerics still do it better.


The Psicrystal + Share Pain + Vigor combo is great, but it's a lot better at higher levels because it's actually more cost effecient then. Still, it's good enough for any psionic character who can spare the powers known and feats to set it up ASAP. Might want to pick up a way of fixing your Psicrystal, though, just in case.


Remember that you can pick up extra powers with Expanded Knowledge. You can choose powers that aren't from your discipline(such as Astral Construct for non-Shapers), or even the Psion list at all. The latter is especially important, because you can add Psychic Warrior powers as well. The Psywar version of Hustle uses less power than the Egoist version and is only a level 2 power, for example, and Psionic Lion's Charge isn't on the Psion list, period.

[Kaleph]

Hi All,
For an upcoming campaign that I am I was thinking of playing a psionic gish, but I don't know where to start. I have never played anything psionic character before and I have limited experience with playing gishes. I am thinking of trying to go into ithilid slayer for the obvious reasons (BAB, psionic advancement, and immunities). I am think I might be able to convince my DM to let Human Paragon advance psionic stuff so that could I could get the BAB faster to get into ithilid slayer faster.

Build specifics: 5th level, 5th level WBL, 28 point buy, most sources allowed (not too much cheese though), no house rules that I am aware of.

Original idea: Psion 1/ human paragon 3/ Ranger (for BAB and track along with other cool things) 1/ Ithid slayer 10/ ??? 5

I am open to any suggestion about, what I should do, and any thing about my build. I would really love any help what so ever in ideas for this character and...well anything about it. Thank you.

BG

Your build is basically identical to the PC I'm playing right now, although I believe you need 1 more psion Level to hit BAB +4. The only difference is that I use sanctified mind instead of slayer, since it has search as a class skill and otyugh hole was allowed.

Compared to the other builds, this may be slightly inferior in terms of optimization, and I recommend it to you only in case you want to combine the gish with a skillmonkey.

You may get trapfinding as a Ranger ACF by giving up track (another reason why I don't use the slayer); you get a lot of skillpoints by taking ranger 1, going human and through the intelligence synergy. You already have search as a class skill for several of your classes, disable devices through the able-learner-lite ability of the human paragon, and - say - diplomacy through the Crane-clan-human of oriental adventures. The psicrystal is great at scouting.
In case you don't want to be a skillmonkey, you probably don't need human paragon instead.

Please consider that there's no psion equivalent to arcane strike, so you'll miss one of the most common damage-enhancers available to the arcane gishes. It's true that, to deal damage, you can use energy ray, maybe combined with psionic tricks to go nova - but you have to define a strategy to be effective in melee as well, otherwise there's no point being a gish. If for example you decide to use metamorphosis + power attack, it's recommended to be an egoist with entry martial 2/psion 4, rather than psion 8. If you want to break the action economy, have a look to the telepath because of schism and metaconcert. If you have access to the ACF to create your own mantles, and don't mind losing the int-synergy to the skill Points, ardent is also a nice Option.

[danielxcutter]

Your build is basically identical to the PC I'm playing right now, although I believe you need 1 more psion Level to hit BAB +4. The only difference is that I use sanctified mind instead of slayer, since it has search as a class skill and otyugh hole was allowed.

Compared to the other builds, this may be slightly inferior in terms of optimization, and I recommend it to you only in case you want to combine the gish with a skillmonkey.

You may get trapfinding as a Ranger ACF by giving up track (another reason why I don't use the slayer); you get a lot of skillpoints by taking ranger 1, going human and through the intelligence synergy. You already have search as a class skill for several of your classes, disable devices through the able-learner-lite ability of the human paragon, and - say - diplomacy through the Crane-clan-human of oriental adventures. The psicrystal is great at scouting.
In case you don't want to be a skillmonkey, you probably don't need human paragon instead.

Please consider that there's no psion equivalent to arcane strike, so you'll miss one of the most common damage-enhancers available to the arcane gishes. It's true that, to deal damage, you can use energy ray, maybe combined with psionic tricks to go nova - but you have to define a strategy to be effective in melee as well, otherwise there's no point being a gish. If for example you decide to use metamorphosis + power attack, it's recommended to be an egoist with entry martial 2/psion 4, rather than psion 8. If you want to break the action economy, have a look to the telepath because of schism and metaconcert. If you have access to the ACF to create your own mantles, and don't mind losing the int-synergy to the skill Points, ardent is also a nice Option.

Well, there's (Greater) Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact. Those are great for adding damage up, though you'll need Hustle and Psionic Meditation to spam it.

Deep Crystal weapons are also very useful, as is the Power Storing enhancement if you have at least one damaging power.

[Kaleph]

Well, there's (Greater) Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact. Those are great for adding damage up, though you'll need Hustle and Psionic Meditation to spam it.

Deep Crystal weapons are also very useful, as is the Power Storing enhancement if you have at least one damaging power.

I use deepcrystal + knowledge devotion + metamorphosis (EK); there are for sure other options, as those you're mentioning. In any case the damage output isn't obvious to optimize, and may be the main driver when selecting feats and class entry.

[danielxcutter]

I use deepcrystal + knowledge devotion + metamorphosis (EK); there are for sure other options, as those you're mentioning. In any case the damage output isn't obvious to optimize, and may be the main driver when selecting feats and class entry.

Power Storing isn't just good for damage; an unaugumented Dispel Psionics fits in there just fine. But yeah, you're right. Damage is the first priority when making a gish.

[Kaleph]

Power Storing isn't just good for damage; an unaugumented Dispel Psionics fits in there just fine. But yeah, you're right. Damage is the first priority when making a gish.

Actually I wish me a power storing weapon too, if I only had the money :-)

[logic_error]

If you don't mind losing more manifester levels (not a terrible idea, especially for Psionics) then take 5 levels of duskblade, 1 level of Nomad Psion and then go Slayer. Take Practised manifester along the way to get four lost levels back. The using magic-psionic transperency channel all the touch based goodness of psionics. You can save the lost levels by taking only 3 Duskblade levels, but then you lose the quick cast, which I generally reserve to cast true strike and then power attack-charge-jump.

[danielxcutter]

Actually I wish me a power storing weapon too, if I only had the money :-)

It's only a +1.

Fun tip: Dispel Psionics is a 3rd-level power, making it a valid target for Overchannel + Talented. And as you know, the dispel check relies on the caster level, so if you're under ML 10 it's a nice boost.

[Eldariel]

Ranger 1/Psion 6/Slayer 10/Anarchic Initiate 3 is basic. Ardent is nice due to no lost manifesting, however.

[Kaleph]

It's only a +1.

Fun tip: Dispel Psionics is a 3rd-level power, making it a valid target for Overchannel + Talented. And as you know, the dispel check relies on the caster level, so if you're under ML 10 it's a nice boost.

I'm saving money to turn my +1 into a psychic weapon, due to background reasons. That would mean +3, and at the moment I'm only level 9. To put powerstoring on top of it, I'd need to spend 32,000 - 18,000 = 14,000 gp.
But after this exchange of ideas I'm considering talking to the DM to get powerstoring before psychic, since it fits anyhow flavorwise...

[danielxcutter]

I'm saving money to turn my +1 into a psychic weapon, due to background reasons. That would mean +3, and at the moment I'm only level 9. To put powerstoring on top of it, I'd need to spend 32,000 - 18,000 = 14,000 gp.
But after this exchange of ideas I'm considering talking to the DM to get powerstoring before psychic, since it fits anyhow flavorwise...

Hmm... what did the Psychic enhancement do again?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Untapped Potential and Hyperconscious* are two VERY highly regarded 3rd party supplements that could give you more gishing options. The ghostbreaker PrC, for example...

*Written by the author of the XPH, even.

[lord_khaine]

Power Storing isn't just good for damage; an unaugumented Dispel Psionics fits in there just fine. But yeah, you're right. Damage is the first priority when making a gish.

Close, i would say its actually being able to hit anything. A lot of Gish builds takes a few hit to BAB, and cant prioritise Str as highly as a pure melee.


Fun tip: Dispel Psionics is a 3rd-level power, making it a valid target for Overchannel + Talented. And as you know, the dispel check relies on the caster level, so if you're under ML 10 it's a nice boost.

Its also a nice boost past level 10. Dispel Psionics bonus can go up to +20.

But at the same time its less relevant for power storing, because you can only put 5 PP's worth of power into the weapon.


Hmm... what did the Psychic enhancement do again?

For just 35k you can get a weapon whose enhancement bonus rises the more PP you have. In other words, the more worn down and reliant on your weapon you become, the weaker your weapon growns. Its a horrible waste of money in my eyes, one that would only be taken for RP reasons.
You need at least 80 current PP to make your weapons enhancement bonus go up to +4.
But for the same money you could get a weapon thats +4 all the time, and use your PP to buff yourself up.

[lbuttitta]

Seconding Psychic Warrior. Just go psychic warrior 4/illithid slayer 10/... 6 or psychic warrior 3/ranger 1/illithid slayer 10/... 6.