Using a Rapier & Whip (but not two weapon fighting)

[rudy]

Playing in Curse of Strahd (second character after a near TPK), using a mixture of Oath of Redemption and Oath of Devotion Paladin (not both, just mix and match), with wisdom based instead of charisma based features. Flexible GM.

Anyway, the Oath of Redemption has the whole "when not wearing armor or shield, your AC is 16 + dex", which is pretty nice, and I stuck Mariner fighting style on top of that, so defenses are top notch. Obviously Wood Elf.

So, I'm in a somewhat unusual situation of having martial weapon proficiencies, but not wanting to use armor or shields.

My thinking is to use a rapier in one hand, and a whip in the other. My primary attacks will generally be with the rapier, but if I'm understanding correctly I could use the whip for opportunity attacks at 10 feet away, or when I didn't want to get close.

Any reason this is dumb, or would not work?

I can't think of any other build for which it would come up, since either you would want to use a shield in that hand, or you would want to use a two handed weapon, or you wouldn't have whip proficiency. None of those apply here.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Anyway, the Oath of Redemption has the whole "when not wearing armor or shield, your AC is 16 + dex", which is pretty nice, and I stuck Mariner fighting style on top of that, so defenses are top notch. Obviously Wood Elf.
Holy crap, that can't be right. <checks> Holy crap, what on earth were they thinking? That's preposterous. That's three times as good as light armor and twice as good as Mage Armor. What?


Any reason this is dumb, or would not work?
Seems like it should work to me.

[mephnick]

Anyway, the Oath of Redemption has the whole "when not wearing armor or shield, your AC is 16 + dex".

Whoah, I must have missed this. That's...crazy? Right?

[rudy]

Whoah, I must have missed this. That's...crazy? Right?

It is, in fact, crazy.

I know *why* they did it: it's so the Redemption Paladin can have the same AC as a plate armor wearing paladin with shield. Which is what it does. But that completely ignores all of the benefits that not having to wear plate mail or use a shield comes with.

Honestly, if this makes it to print should be something more like 10 + DEX + CHA (copying the monk, essentially).

[toapat]

Holy crap, that can't be right. <checks> Holy crap, what on earth were they thinking? That's preposterous. That's three times as good as light armor and twice as good as Mage Armor. What?

ya, redemption is absurdly overpowered. it has without question the strongest spell list, the best Channel Divinities, and a very good aura, offset only by having the single worst capstone in the entire game. Yes even Foe Slayer is better since at least Foe Slayer works for multiple rounds

[rudy]

ya, redemption is absurdly overpowered. it has without question the strongest spell list, the best Channel Divinities, and a very good aura, offset only by having the single worst capstone in the entire game. Yes even Foe Slayer is better since at least Foe Slayer works for multiple rounds

Best spell list, yeah. Best channel divinities, no, definitely not. +5 to one persuasion check, and a single reaction to deal very limited radiant damage.

Aura, eh. Inferior to Oath of the Ancients, certainly, and Oath of Devotion situationally (such as Curse of Strahd).

[Coidzor]

You're not wearing heavy armor and you're not wearing a shield, so Mariner Fighting Style works, as long as you can get it.

Mariner Fighting Style says that Paladins may select it.

Seems open and shut to me.

Once you hit Dex 20, you'll have 22 AC and be the equal of a 20th level Barbarian with 20 Dex and 24 Con.

Even with a more modest starting Dex of 16, that's AC 20 with Mariner.

I suppose part of the idea was that enemies would target the apparently unarmored dude who is trying to go into melee with them, mistakenly thinking that they'll go down faster than the dudes in various armors since they're not frothing at the mouth, and thus it'd want to have higher AC to survive tanking hits from most or all of the enemies in the encounter for a turn or two.

[toapat]

Best spell list, yeah. Best channel divinities, no, definitely not. +5 to one persuasion check, and a single reaction to deal very limited radiant damage.

Aura, eh. Inferior to Oath of the Ancients, certainly, and Oath of Devotion situationally (such as Curse of Strahd).

One of its channel Divinities effectively makes you the party face until bard exists to invalidate you as the Face

the Other lets you reflect a cirtical hit 1/combat. used correctly it crushes every other channel divinity except the Mark of Vengeance.

Ancients is the only better aura. because once its properly online with the auto-healing you literally just delete incoming damage. Youre also supposed to be a DC caster not a dps'r

[Theodoxus]

Ancients is the only better aura. because once its properly online with the auto-healing you literally just delete incoming damage. Youre also supposed to be a DC caster not a dps'r

what auto-healing?

[toapat]

what auto-healing?

at lvl 15 redemption gets to heal 1d6 +1/2 pally HP at the end of each turn when below half HP

it comes way too late but it just goes to show that Redemption shouldnt be made available to players until we get at least version 0.2. the class either wants you to be DC Caster pally, Tank pally, or Ascetic-dex pally, doesnt really give a unified idea of which they really want

[rudy]

One of its channel Divinities effectively makes you the party face until bard exists to invalidate you as the Face

the Other lets you reflect a cirtical hit 1/combat. used correctly it crushes every other channel divinity except the Mark of Vengeance.

Ancients is the only better aura. because once its properly online with the auto-healing you literally just delete incoming damage. Youre also supposed to be a DC caster not a dps'r

A Paladin can already be the party face. Getting +5 to one Persuasion check using your channel divinity, *before* you roll, is incredibly underwhelming. The other channel divinity comes with huge limitations you are not considering: First, it can't be an attack on you. Second, it has to be someone within 10 feet of you. Third, they get a saving throw against it. Fourth, it uses your reaction. And it doesn't even stop the critical hit, just damages the foe.

At 15th level I'll admit the aura is *very* nice. But there's a huge range of levels in there, 7-14th, where a lot more play happens on average, and it's just "eh". Again, takes your reaction. If it was at-will, I'd be more impressed.

[Theodoxus]

at lvl 15 redemption gets to heal 1d6 +1/2 pally HP at the end of each turn when below half HP

it comes way too late but it just goes to show that Redemption shouldnt be made available to players until we get at least version 0.2. the class either wants you to be DC Caster pally, Tank pally, or Ascetic-dex pally, doesnt really give a unified idea of which they really want

Ah, the way you wrote it "Ancients is the only better aura. because once its properly online..." the its references back to Ancients, not Redemption, hence my confusion.

Yes, you're correct that Redemption is a little schizophrenic in what it wants to do...

[Lombra]

Is it RAW to use off-hand weapons for opportunity attacks? :confused:

[CursedRhubarb]

Neither the whip or rapier are light weapons so you'd need the feat to have both out at once. But should work otherwise.

[rudy]

Is it RAW to use off-hand weapons for opportunity attacks? :confused:
In 5e, by "RAW", there is no such thing as an "off-hand". Nothing stops you, for example, from switching your sword and shield hands as often as you like. Even two-weapon fighting simply refers to the "other" hand. So, while the opportunity attack section does not explicitly say that you can take an opportunity attack with a weapon in either hand, there is absolutely no reason to think that you could not.


Neither the whip or rapier are light weapons so you'd need the feat to have both out at once. But should work otherwise.
You'd only need the feat to use "two-weapon fighting". Two-weapon fighting is explicitly the act of adding attacks with a second weapon as a bonus action to your regular attack (pg. 195, PHB). Simply having a weapon in each hand does not require a feat.

[Coidzor]

Is it RAW to use off-hand weapons for opportunity attacks? :confused:

That only exists when you take the Attack Action and use your Bonus Action to TWF.

Once it's no longer your turn you're just wielding two weapons simultaneously. There is no default dominant hand that is the only one that can attack using the Attack Action or on opportunity attacks.