UA skill feats... too good for half?

[Toofey]

I was looking through the UA feats for deciding what to include in my campaign and I ended up deciding almost all of them were allowable if they were converted to full feats.

They're pretty uniform in doing something useful and providing a skill or expertise. For the most part I thought given the rates of value you come to examining the existing feats and racial abilities a skill is worth a little less than a single ability point and generally something you can do (which almost all of the skill feats provide) are generally worth about an ability point.

Meanwhile all of these Feats in addition to offering a skill and something to do offer a chance for expertise. Additionally because they are feats to be chosen by the player they can be assumed to be something that will be of use to the player and not attached to a race or class which may include elements which are less useful. Finally they are all very good for advancing character concept both mechanically by giving people who's idea includes "really good at X" an opportunity for expertise, and by providing the chance to see the character advance their own body of abilities beyond simply gaining levels.

As such I ended up removing the additional ability point, what are people's thoughts?

[Coffee_Dragon]

I'm not a number cruncher, but I don't think they're generally too strong, and I definitely think they're too weak if you remove the stat point. That's like saying you think the "ribbons" are each worth 2/3rds of a feat.

The skill feats are awful design for other reasons: formalizing certain actions and locking them into these niche feats, making it so that these "paragon" abilities will not be held by the traditional skill classes which gain expertise from class abilities and are therefore not in the market for these feats, and having a lazy, inconsistent and often nonsensical range of bonus abilities.

I would look into removing the ribbons and generalizing the feat instead, or house ruling Skilled to allow getting expertise that way (several options exist).

[toapat]

As such I ended up removing the additional ability point, what are people's thoughts?

of the 16 skill feats, only 3 are overpowered, Specifically Brawny, Diplomat, and Historian

and no one should be allowed to take Diplomat or historian

[some guy]

They're good, but I don't know if they're "Take it without the ability increase"-good, maybe for a dedicated shover/grappler.

I would at least keep the ability increase for Animal Handler, Medic and Performer, seeing as those skills are not that much used (at least in my games), and maybe for Menacing as a lot of classes with access to Intimidation don't care for Charisma.

[mephnick]

of the 16 skill feats, only 3 are overpowered, Specifically Brawny, Diplomat, and Historian

and no one should be allowed to take Diplomat or historian

I think Brawny was the most needed feat in 5e. Now strong characters can actually be the best shovers. Diplomat and Historian are pretty strong, yeah.

I think the skills feats are the best thing they've put out, simply because the system needed them. They do need some polish of course.

[toapat]

I think Brawny was the most needed feat in 5e. Now strong characters can actually be the best shovers. Diplomat and Historian are pretty strong, yeah.

I think the skills feats are the best thing they've put out, simply because the system needed them. They do need some polish of course.

Brawny is important, but it does bring slightly too much to the table. Its not absurdly overpowered for a +1 stat feat

Diplomat and historiann are broken beyond any rational level even without the ASI and Proficiency/Expertise

yes the feats were needed, Perform needs a better rider. but ya, of the 16, 3 are powerful, 2 are broken, and the rest are fine or even underwhelming

[Vaz]

What does Brawny as a feat bring to a table that a L1 rogue dip doesn't? It allows a character concept to be fulfilled without arbitrarily sidetracking for an essential dip to notsuck(tm).

[toapat]

What does Brawny as a feat bring to a table that a L1 rogue dip doesn't?

the benefit of not paying for those levels of rogue or bard.

[Vaz]

Precisely. So why is that "too much"?

[toapat]

Precisely. So why is that "too much"?

because you delay progressing other classfeatures while doing so, and not really benefiting from the rogue ones as much.

[Vaz]

Eh? Is that some way of saying "it's balanced" to have you less capable than a Rogue with Expertise with lower Str?

[Coidzor]

of the 16 skill feats, only 3 are overpowered, Specifically Brawny, Diplomat, and Historian

and no one should be allowed to take Diplomat or historian

What on earth is truly OP about having a Large-size creature's carrying capacity? Especially given how meticulously tracking every pound of gear and loot is something most people have found to be unfun and ignored as much as possible since the 70s.

What's so terrible about Historian enabling better identification of monsters and giving characters without Expertise a decent chance of success on hard non-combat rolls?

[Cazero]

of the 16 skill feats, only 3 are overpowered, Specifically Brawny, Diplomat, and Historian
Not Diplomat. You can already do what it does. It's called a CHA check.

[Hypersmith]

Not Diplomat. You can already do what it does. It's called a CHA check.

you allow CHA checks to charm people, with the only limitation being distance?

[Cazero]

you allow CHA checks to charm people, with the only limitation being distance?
It already causes a change of behavior. Considering what the charmed condition actualy does, I might as well put it there to make it clear.

[Naanomi]

It already causes a change of behavior. Considering what the charmed condition actualy does, I might as well put it there to make it clear.
Yeah, I largely agree that making non-hostile people not attack you (the main mechanical effect of being Charmed) is something that already falls in the wheelhouse of a good Persuasion skill check.

The flat mechanical boost from Historian is essentially as good as an unlimited Bardic Inspiration in most circumstances... especially with a Mastermind Rogue.

[CantigThimble]

What on earth is truly OP about having a Large-size creature's carrying capacity? Especially given how meticulously tracking every pound of gear and loot is something most people have found to be unfun and ignored as much as possible since the 70s.

What's so terrible about Historian enabling better identification of monsters and giving characters without Expertise a decent chance of success on hard non-combat rolls?

Comparing historian to magic initiate for guidance (and 2 more spells) puts it in perspective a bit better. Plus, it isn't totally reliable unless you're a wizard.

I think there's a bit of a tendency to call anything from UA that seems strong overpowered just because people are really wary of power creep and don't expect UA to be balanced.

[toapat]

What on earth is truly OP about having a Large-size creature's carrying capacity? Especially given how meticulously tracking every pound of gear and loot is something most people have found to be unfun and ignored as much as possible since the 70s.

What's so terrible about Historian enabling better identification of monsters and giving characters without Expertise a decent chance of success on hard non-combat rolls?

its the fact that you dont pay the price of losing either current progression in the class or later milestone class features to get expertise in Athletics for combat, the rest of the feat is irrelevant

Historian is any checks, its basically bardic inspiration without a use limiter


Not Diplomat. You can already do what it does. It's called a CHA check.

no, you cant. Charmed is a magical effect and you start making Unobservered DC checks with a minute of conversaion, once per round. It literally breaks Non-combat encounters because you only need to talk to someone for 3 minutes to mind control them


Comparing historian to magic initiate for guidance (and 2 more spells) puts it in perspective a bit better. Plus, it isn't totally reliable unless you're a wizard.

I think there's a bit of a tendency to call anything from UA that seems strong overpowered just because people are really wary of power creep and don't expect UA to be balanced.

the difference is that Historian and Diplomat are ludicrously overpowered. Brawny is overpowered but not broken

[Vaz]

Fighter 20, 20 Str
Rogue 20, Str 8

Both have +11 to Athletics scores

Sooooo OP.

Brawny actually makes a Fighter a fighter. +17 to Athletics.

[Naanomi]

Charmed is a fairly weak status effect, hardly 'mind control' by any meaningful standard (it is what makes the Goolock Thrall ability so negligable as well).

[Cybren]

Yeah, I largely agree that making non-hostile people not attack you (the main mechanical effect of being Charmed) is something that already falls in the wheelhouse of a good Persuasion skill check.

The flat mechanical boost from Historian is essentially as good as an unlimited Bardic Inspiration in most circumstances... especially with a Mastermind Rogue.

My problem with Historian is that they clearly didn't know what to give people good at History, so they just made something up that really isn't relevant to history at all. It doesn't feel cohesive.

[mephnick]

My problem with Historian is that they clearly didn't know what to give people good at History, so they just made something up that really isn't relevant to history at all. It doesn't feel cohesive.

Well in my experience being good at History got me an industrial labour job, so I'm confused as well.

[mgshamster]

Well in my experience being good at History got me an industrial labour job, so I'm confused as well.

A friend of mine wanted to be a high school history teacher. The college offered him a fast track to get that job, and half the classes were P.E.

So a history degree isn't needed or even wanted for a job in history, but it is useful for jobs in completely unrelated fields.

[Cybren]

Well in my experience being good at History got me an industrial labour job, so I'm confused as well.

Did you do so by relating an anecdote about industry you read in plato?

[mephnick]

Did you do so by relating an anecdote about industry you read in plato?

Nah, nepotism, like all good union jobs.

[RSP]

Didn't see it mentioned here, but was thinking Empathic was one of the more powerful options: out of combat it gives a free roll to get Advantage on your next Chr based roll. Essentially a free Enhance Ability with unlimited uses (assuming you can pass the Insight check).

Also, Silver Tongued for any decently Chr attacker: grants Advantage on all attacks, costs only 1 attack, no size limit like Athletic-based shoved, goes against a much weaker stat in Insight (vs better of Athletics or Acrobatics) and it lasts 2 rounds.

Only draw back is if you fail, you can't use it against that opponent again for an hour. Not bad at all compared to Brawny.

[toapat]

Didn't see it mentioned here, but was thinking Empathic was one of the more powerful options: out of combat it gives a free roll to get Advantage on your next Chr based roll. Essentially a free Enhance Ability with unlimited uses (assuming you can pass the Insight check).

Also, Silver Tongued for any decently Chr attacker: grants Advantage on all attacks, costs only 1 attack, no size limit like Athletic-based shoved, goes against a much weaker stat in Insight (vs better of Athletics or Acrobatics) and it lasts 2 rounds.

Only draw back is if you fail, you can't use it against that opponent again for an hour. Not bad at all compared to Brawny.

Empathetic isnt an Attack replacement, its the full action, its literal garbage.

Silver Tongued is ok but i dont think the effective strength is worth an Attack off your attack action even for a lvl 20 fighter

[Vaz]

Empathetic isnt an Attack replacement, its the full action, its literal garbage.
Out of combat though...

[toapat]

Out of combat though...

its better to take one of the Cha Skill feats than to bother with empathetic. isnt the statistical equivalent of advantage only essentially a +5 bonus?

[CantigThimble]

Empathetic isnt an Attack replacement, its the full action, its literal garbage.

He was talking about out of combat use, in which case it has all kinds of uses. A wisdom based character can get a leg up on charisma based skills (just as big a leg up as diplomat actually), a rogue could get advantage on stealth or sleight of hand etc. etc. Plus you don't need to talk for a minute to get the bonus, which might not always be feasible.

[toapat]

just as big a leg up as diplomat actually

Upgrading Persuade into Mundane Mind control is not the same as upgrading insight into pseudo-Enhance Ability.

Diplomat basically invalidates the entire ability to perform social encounters until mind shielding comes online at later levels. Its better to have access to EA as an actual spell since it doesnt require you basically pay for checks every round letting the DM technicallity you

[CantigThimble]

Upgrading Persuade into Mundane Mind control is not the same as upgrading insight into pseudo-Enhance Ability.

Diplomat basically invalidates the entire ability to perform social encounters until mind shielding comes online at later levels. Its better to have access to EA as an actual spell since it doesnt require you basically pay for checks every round letting the DM technicallity you

The charmed condition IS pseudo enhance ability. It gives advantage on charisma checks and that's all the compulsion you get. It also means they won't bushwhack you, but if you just talked to them for a minute chances are they weren't planning on that anyway.

If your DM plays charmed as non-suicidal dominate person, then that's his problem. Because all the rules give you is advantage on charisma checks.

[Elric VIII]

I'm a bit confused about what makes Brawny so good. I can see why Historian can be dumb as it is pretty much the basic version of Bardic Inspiration for free. But is +2-6 to Athletics specifically that powerful (as opposed to any other expertise)? Am I missing something exploitable with extra carrying capacity?

[Naanomi]

If your DM plays charmed as non-suicidal dominate person, then that's his problem. Because all the rules give you is advantage on charisma checks.
And they can't attack you... but yes still not that amazing; makes the Goolok thrall ability a real waste usually

I'm a bit confused about what makes Brawny so good. I can see why Historian can be dumb as it is pretty much the basic version of Bardic Inspiration for free. But is +2-6 to Athletics specifically that powerful (as opposed to any other expertise)? Am I missing something exploitable with extra carrying capacity?
Unlike most skills, athletics has direct combat applicability through Shove/Grapple... this removes the need for a Bard/Rogue dip in a grapple or shield Mastery build

[Toofey]

Funny enough Diplomat is one of the skills where I went the other way, granting +1 to cha and the persuasion skill or expertise if you already had persuasion. I took out the special ability entire.

As for empathic I made it a bonus action to gain advantage until the end of the targets next turn (so you get an action and advantage on saves for the next action the target takes on a success) I also took away the +1 there.

I tweeked most of them a little beyond simply taking away the stat bonus (for most) also on the ones that overlap with thief I offer a +1 to the stat if the person already has expertise to help accommodate people taking the feat for thematic reasons.

[RSP]

Empathetic isnt an Attack replacement, its the full action, its literal garbage.

I didn't say it was an attack; I actually specifically stated "out of combat"...

[RSP]

Silver Tongued is ok but i dont think the effective strength is worth an Attack off your attack action even for a lvl 20 fighter

Fair enough, though plenty of players disagree as Shove for Advantage is pretty good; having it last 2 rounds is even better. Having it resisted by a creatures Insight is even better (it's impossibly to shove a Fire Giant, but very easy to Silver Tonugue it if you have any sort of decent Chr).

[toapat]

Funny enough Diplomat is one of the skills where I went the other way, granting +1 to cha and the persuasion skill or expertise if you already had persuasion. I took out the special ability entire.

As for empathic I made it a bonus action to gain advantage until the end of the targets next turn (so you get an action and advantage on saves for the next action the target takes on a success) I also took away the +1 there.

I tweeked most of them a little beyond simply taking away the stat bonus (for most) also on the ones that overlap with thief I offer a +1 to the stat if the person already has expertise to help accommodate people taking the feat for thematic reasons.

Other than Diplomat and Historian, none of the feats should be modified unless overwhelmingly underpowered like Naturalist and Empathy are. Brawny is only noted as "extremely good" because of the lower opportunity cost combined with the +1 strength

Diplomat's mechanic needs a complete rework because it just paves over social encounters while Historian, while highly doubtful anyone is going to use it, does turn any int class into a bard

[alchahest]

Brawny is great because it means a shield fighting fighter who focuses on strength doesn't have to spend part oh his or her training in a dex based class to be good at their job.

[djreynolds]

They were desperately needed.

Skills are ability checks, what's the point of having a high ability score in the game and not being able to put it to any use other than saves and spell casting

That poor fighter is plate armor, has a high strength and con and this 14 wisdom or intelligence or charisma sitting there unused. Now he can use intimidate in combat.

Perhaps hours of being a gate guard has made this fighter a really good diplomat, or years of hearing about this battle and that battle from older veterans has made him a good historian.

Otherwise classes don't use their other ability scores, and that's a shame. Attack, attack, attack.

I have allowed rogue's at my table to use a bonus action and roll sleight of hand and/or deception as a means of getting advantage for sneak attack versus an insight check.... is it any more powerful than a swashbuckler's rakish audacity that uses nothing

Especially brawny was needed, so tired of having to take levels of two classes without the shield proficiency for expertise in athletics so my fighter or paladin or barbarian could actually be good at shoving people with a shield

[Elric VIII]

Unlike most skills, athletics has direct combat applicability through Shove/Grapple... this removes the need for a Bard/Rogue dip in a grapple or shield Mastery build

Oh. I had thought it was just used to escape a grapple in combat. Thank you for the clarification.

[Beelzebubba]

I think they're troublesome in some ways, but not 'too good'.

They're a good way to get a bit of flavor out of an uneven attribute, and I like how they allow someone's character to be absolutely fantastic in one area. (I know my Druid loves the idea of Expertise in Survival, and I don't want to have to take a level in Rogue to get it.)

I don't like how almost everything is either a spell, or defines what a skill can't do now that it's enmeshed in the feat.

Like... for 'Survivalist', I'd prefer, oh, 'Adapted to terrible conditions. Makes all checks for Extreme Cold or Extreme Heat with advantage, takes no Disadvantage on Perception checks in Strong Wind or Heavy Rain'. (I just pulled this out of my butt, so take it as a direction, not as a fully informed idea.)

That would make a lot more sense than casting a spell, even if it were situational. In fact, taking that feat would signal to a DM that the players want to pay more attention to the environment and it would be used more.

As far as Historian, I'd rather give something like 're-roll any 1's on History checks' or 'when spending inspiration on a History check double the Inspiration roll amount', or some other thing like that. (Again, not thought through. Just thinking aloud.)

There are a lot of interesting mechanics they overlooked to give people spells.

[alchahest]

I think Historian is the only one that needs a rework, to be honest. It's basically the entire schtick of 3.x's Factotum, but within a single feat. Everything else provides little bonuses (I got to use empathetic during a crazy trial my DM had us sit in on, and it was great) and solidifies your character's extra training or aptitude in a given skill. Which is awesome, especially for fighters, who are very good at fighitng, but lack outside of fighting. Since they've got extra ASIs, it's a perfect intersection that allows for a little more breadth of ability.

[RSP]

History isn't all that great as it works off of the Help action, and therefore has its same limitations. Per the PHB:

"A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone. For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves’ tools, so a character who lacks that proficiency can’t help another character in that task. Moreover, a character can help only when two or more individuals working together would actually be productive. Some tasks, such as threading a needle, are no easier with help"

So it's kind of limited to what it can be used for. Note also, the indication you can only help if you have the Proficiency yourself. I haven't seen anything that indicates you can't attempt to use a tool (like thieves tools) if you don't have that Proficiency, but here it states you can't help if you don't have the Proficiency.

If anyone else has any RAW or Tweets to support this either way, I'd be interested in seeing them.

[Coffee_Dragon]

History isn't all that great as it works off of the Help action, and therefore has its same limitations.

It would be pretty flavourably awkward if the types of actions where raw anecdotal information is of any help would slant towards the purely physical, though.

"As we push this boulder uphill together I'm reminded of King Borax, who once pushed a similar boulder, or was it a barrel of rum... and I think he said something like, lift with your legs, not your back? Wheee!"

"You know, the thread hag Killer Sue had a most awesome technique for threading needles, which I may tell you about later, but absolutely not now, since I wouldn't be of any practical use physically helping you with the threading."

[RSP]

It would be pretty flavourably awkward if the types of actions where raw anecdotal information is of any help would slant towards the purely physical, though.

"As we push this boulder uphill together I'm reminded of King Borax, who once pushed a similar boulder, or was it a barrel of rum... and I think he said something like, lift with your legs, not your back? Wheee!"

"You know, the thread hag Killer Sue had a most awesome technique for threading needles, which I may tell you about later, but absolutely not now, since I wouldn't be of any practical use physically helping you with the threading."

Agreed. A historian with no ability in Stealth shouldn't be upping a Rogue w/ Steath Expertise's Skill Check, much like the boulder example you give.

If you just call it a mechanical +Historian's Proficiency Bonus on Skill Checks, then it's a lot better than intended. Keeping in mind the restrictions on the Help Action, keeps it grounded (though this will depend mostly on DM rulings).