[DM] Using high CR enemies on low CL players

[Gamezdude]

Ello

Im wanting to use a frost wurm & a adult black dragon on my players (2x CL2) but clearly they would wipe them out.

Any ideas how to combat this? Both creatures are part of the story and im aware of making the rules serve the story but how would I do this without breaking/unbalancing the game?

[legomaster00156]

How about don't? Do not force the players to fight these guys, and make it very obvious that they shouldn't. Even if you threw in condition after condition to help them, and gave them an absurdly helpful environment, this is a recipe for a TPK.

[The Glyphstone]

I'd listen to the person above - there's too many ways for something like this to go wrong, when you could get the exact same effect minus the "unbeatable god-enemy" part by using a similar-but-weaker enemy.

That said, if you simply must do it, don't make the monster the opponent, but have them as a setpiece/environmental factor for the 'real' fight. For example, if the Frost Worm is attacking a town the players are in, the 'win condition is to gather up supply caches/civilians/livestock/etc. and get them to safety. The Worm won't even notice the party since they are too weak to hurt it, it just burrows in and out of the ground munching on stuff at random. Eventually it gets full and leaves, and how much they managed to save determines whether or not they 'won'.

[Thalantyr]

Sorry for hijacking the thread but wha'ts a set piece, exactly? I've read it before, but not sure what it means.

[The Glyphstone]

Hard to explain directly, but the general gist is 'big, important feature that defines a scene'. Something that isn't the direct focus of the 'camera' itself, but without which the entire scene wouldn't work.

It's a bit more complex in the root definition, which comes from film production, but that's not relevant to the situation.

[Red Fel]

Hard to explain directly, but the general gist is 'big, important feature that defines a scene'. Something that isn't the direct focus of the 'camera' itself, but without which the entire scene wouldn't work.

It's a bit more complex in the root definition, which comes from film production, but that's not relevant to the situation.

Give you an example: In a climactic duel with the antagonist on the lip of an active volcano, the volcano is a "set piece." (Technically, the set piece isn't so much the volcano itself as the entire scene, but the volcano contributes significantly.) And it has a major impact on the fight. Fall in, and you die. Volcano erupts, and you die. The tremors below indicate that the volcano is active, creating an additional level of tension in the scene. But the key thing is that the protagonist isn't fighting the volcano. He's fighting the antagonist. The volcano is equal parts setting and hazard, but not something you can fight.

Have the Dragon be like that. The environmental feature in the background, giving the scene context and weight, creating tension and urgency, but less a thing to fight and more a thing that's simply happening.

Because, yeah. Telling your low-level PCs that they have to fight a high-level monster, in an actual fight, for "story reasons" or any other reason, is basically the same as telling the players to roll new characters. Because unless you use some industrial-grade handwavium, those PCs are dead.

Unless they're not so much fighting the Dragon as they are surviving it.

[Crake]

Sorry for hijacking the thread but wha'ts a set piece, exactly? I've read it before, but not sure what it means.

The term comes from theatre, where you have the stage and set. A set piece is essentially a background prop, and that can be translated to any kind of narrative (or a piece of the set as it were, hence the name), where the set piece is not an actor that the other actors directly interact with, but rather a piece of the scenery, though in this case it's the driving force of the scene, much like a hurricane, or erupting volcano might be. Still not an actor, but a "set piece".

[Darth Ultron]

Well, a powerful foe can always ''pull their punches''. The dragon does not *have* to do like 100 points of damage per attack. A dragon could, for example, just sit back and tail slap the foes around.

Also there are things like trips and disarms and subdual damage. Plus magic.

Like where the big bad foe uses lowly 1st level sleep spell to stop the characters.

You can also weaken the foes...like say have them encounter a dragon that just lost a fight with a powerful foe..but escaped. Or give the foe a curse. A powerful greater curse.

Or you could kill the characters, and have them brought back to life too....

[Ursus Spelaeus]

Ello

Im wanting to use a frost wurm & a adult black dragon on my players (2x CL2) but clearly they would wipe them out.

Any ideas how to combat this? Both creatures are part of the story and im aware of making the rules serve the story but how would I do this without breaking/unbalancing the game?

Wow, I would highly recommend against this. But if you absolutely must use such encounters, then here are some tips:

Give the party a lot of time to prepare. Let them know well ahead of time what they are up against. Give them time to plot and scheme.

Let the party get the drop on the monsters. The element of surprise helps to even the odds a bit.

Give the party an out. The players should be able to avoid the encounters if they don't feel ready, and they should be able to escape and come back later if they feel overwhelmed.

Give the party the tools to even the odds. This might be a powerful magic item, or the assistance of special cohorts.

[Hackulator]

It's hard to give you good ideas without knowing more, you gave very little info.

The only way level 2 characters should be able to fight an Adult Black Dragon is with something bordering on divine intervention, or just high level NPC help.

Maybe have a god give them a temporary buff which gives them the Paragon Template from the epic handbook. It lasts only for this fight. That template is INSANE and they should be able to kill the dragon fairly easily.

[Gamezdude]

I'd listen to the person above - there's too many ways for something like this to go wrong, when you could get the exact same effect minus the "unbeatable god-enemy" part by using a similar-but-weaker enemy.

That said, if you simply must do it, don't make the monster the opponent, but have them as a setpiece/environmental factor for the 'real' fight. For example, if the Frost Worm is attacking a town the players are in, the 'win condition is to gather up supply caches/civilians/livestock/etc. and get them to safety. The Worm won't even notice the party since they are too weak to hurt it, it just burrows in and out of the ground munching on stuff at random. Eventually it gets full and leaves, and how much they managed to save determines whether or not they 'won'.

OK a setpiece sounds like a much better idea.

OK here's the scenario.
The wurm is attacking a village it failed to destroy in the past as it was criticaly wounded and recovered during its slumber.

The players objective is to defend the village while the wurms is to finish the job.

The wurms does not have to die nor does the village have to survive.

I'd just like some examples of missions to use with this set piece

[Elder_Basilisk]

You say you want to use the monsters on your players. Why? What does the adult black dragon accomplish that a wyrmling would not? What's so cool about a frost wurm that you can't do with a pair of ogres?

Likewise, you way that they "are a part of the story" but why are they a part of the story? The easy way around this is "tell a different story that does not require your lvl 2 players to fight monsters outside of their range" or "let your players get to a level where they can actually fight the wurm first."

The most recent post also indicates that you're still on the wrong path. "The players objective is to defend the village while the wurms is to finish the job." That is not a set piece. That is a fight between the players and the monster. ("The wurm does not have to die nor does the village have to survive" That's good because the wurm won't die and the village won't survive unless there's something else really significant going on). If you want to the players' job to be "to survive and escape the village" while the wurm's goal is to "destroy the village" then the wurm could be a set piece, but you would need to add some minions for the players to actually fight or it will be a very dull and uninteresting affair where what you choose to do with the wurm is the only thing that determines whether the players succeed or not.

Bottom line: figure out what you want to accomplish but if it involves level 2 PCs going up against an adult black dragon or a frost wurm in any kind of direct manner, it's not likely to work well.

[MesiDoomstalker]

OK a setpiece sounds like a much better idea.

OK here's the scenario.
The wurm is attacking a village it failed to destroy in the past as it was criticaly wounded and recovered during its slumber.

The players objective is to defend the village while the wurms is to finish the job.

The wurms does not have to die nor does the village have to survive.

I'd just like some examples of missions to use with this set piece

The PCs could be tasked to go get the Super Mega Awesome Sword that the Big Hero defended the town with before. The Wurm, who doesn't know the PC's actions, goes about destroying the town, creating physical obstacles. Additionally, level appropriate minions of the Wurm are running amok and engage with the PC occasionally. As the PC's navigate the town, they must be mindful of the Wurm's path and actions, avoiding areas where he is active or creating brand new terrain hazards and obstacles mid-minion fight (such as a trench formed as the Wurm passed through, or a patch of ice formed by the Wurm's frost breath (do they have that? I'm assuming here)). PC's success hinges on getting to the location the weapon is stored and then getting it to the best person who can wield (perhaps the Big Hero, who is tussling with the Wurm while the PC's are trying to get the sword). Or possibly trying to use it themselves (give the sword the plot power to force the Wurm to retreat, but then breaks because the PC isn't strong enough to wield it).

[Gamezdude]

Right here is the situation
The players are unable to defeat both foes, therefore they cannot fight them directly.

The wurm & dragon cannot be switched out for something weaker as they represent the dinosaurs in terms of size for the overarching story. Keyword 'great beasts'

I'm not worried about the dragon for now. I do have a backup plan for him.

Lore/story
[spoiler]
Both wurm and dragon are 'great beasts' defined by their size (similar to the dinosaurs) they are going to reclaim the world.

As if the dinosaurs came back to life
[spoiler/]

I would like tips of how to resolve this conflict. Like evacuation of the village during the attack.


And yes I know I backed myself into a corner and it's a bad idea. I intend to fix it and learn from it.

[rel]

If you want those monsters in your game refluff some more appropriate monsters or just build custom monsters from scratch. Easy option:

A very young red dragon is also a large dragon but it is only CR 5, still very bad news for a village and a level 2 party but more manageable. just swap out the breath weapon and immunity and give it a paint job.

For the frost worm take a giant constrictor snake (also CR 5) add the cold subtype, a breath weapon and a burrow speed and lose the grapple.

[OldTrees1]

Right here is the situation
The players are unable to defeat both foes, therefore they cannot fight them directly.

The wurm & dragon cannot be switched out for something weaker as they represent the dinosaurs in terms of size for the overarching story. Keyword 'great beasts'

I'm not worried about the dragon for now. I do have a backup plan for him.

Lore/story
[spoiler]
Both wurm and dragon are 'great beasts' defined by their size (similar to the dinosaurs) they are going to reclaim the world.

As if the dinosaurs came back to life
[spoiler/]

I would like tips of how to resolve this conflict. Like evacuation of the village during the attack.


And yes I know I backed myself into a corner and it's a bad idea. I intend to fix it and learn from it.

Step 1: Do not frame the encounter as a Fight. Don't even open the monster manual. The encounter is not a fight it is an event that the PCs are trying to survive and rescue as many other people as possible.

Make a map of the village and place in 5 regions (ground zero, initial attack, secondary attack, dangerous ground, safely outside)
Ground Zero- Everyone in this region dies immediately and most of the structures are pulverized as the very opening scene.
Initial Attack- Populate this region with some villagers. Everyone in this region is in danger(detailed later) immediately as the beast is "attacking" them from ground zero.
Secondary Attack- Populate this region with some villagers. The PCs start here too. This area is initially hazardous(detailed later) but not as dangerous(detailed later). After 5 rounds the Wurm/Dragon moves to attack this region too. At that time this area is upgraded to dangerous(detailed later)
Dangerous ground- This is the area around the village that is still close enough that is it hazardous(detailed later) during the secondary attack.
Safely Outside- Any villager that makes it here survives the event. PCs gain xp for making it here without dying and for each villager they get to safety.

Hazardous: Every round all exposed targets have to dodge rocks or stray bits of breath weapon. Having cover can help or even negate the threat.
Dangerous: Every round everyone in the area has to dodge rocks and stray bits of breath weapon. Seeking cover is nigh impossible and is barely helpful. Half cover is +1AC/+1Save and total cover is +2AC/+2Save but cover is destroyed after the first time it is used.
Player Ingenuity: Reward smart ideas as if they created cover where there was none.

Furthermore being in a Dangerous area comes with a penalty. The Frost Wrum's aura of cold halves the speed of everyone that close and the Black Dragon's acidic vapors deal 1 acid damage per round to everyone that close.

Rocks: +5 attack, 1d6 damage on a hit, x2 damage on a crit
Bits of breath weapon: 1d6 damage, Reflex DC 15 negates

[Sam K]

If you have an arcane caster, drop a wand/scroll of Ray of Stupidity in their path.

That should give them about a 50% chance to beat a frost wurm.