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xyamius
2017-07-09, 07:05 PM
Having a debate on what would win a 5e vs 3.5 fighter both do point build for stats and have same weapons and armor along with both are 5th level humans.

I am saying the 3.5 fighter wins due to the more combat options and feats available. Feats have to come from a printed book for either no home brew options.

what is everyone's thoughts on the two fighting it out?

solidork
2017-07-09, 07:19 PM
5e fighter can move and still make two attacks at the highest bonus. Not part of the class, but super important.

xyamius
2017-07-09, 08:46 PM
5e fighter can move and still make two attacks at the highest bonus. Not part of the class, but super important.

3.5 can combat troll him by using trip, disarm and stand still with combat reflexes for attacks of opportunity making it so he is stuck in the same spot without a weapon while being beat to death. Thinking that would work

Kane0
2017-07-09, 09:14 PM
Two human level 5 fighters? Well then, lets have a look see...

I'll assume:
- PHB only
- Same stats for both (lets say 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8)
- Full HP at level 1, roll 6 on d10 for HP every level following
- Greatsword and plate armor for both, no magic items
- Variant Human for 5e fighter (feats were mentioned)
- Both combatants are using their own rulesets, forcing the recipient to adapt to the initiators mechanics when appropriate (eg grapples)

3.5 Fighter:
Str 18, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
5 Feats (Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Dodge)
Full skill points in 3 skills of about 36

+5 Initiative
AC 21 (20 Flat footed, 11 Touch)
44 HP
One attack at +10 to hit, 2d6 +6 damage (or power attacking for say +5 to hit and 2d6 +16), Critical hit on a 19-20 (roll another hit to confirm) for double damage

5e Fighter:
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
1 Feat: I'd like to choose lucky but lets go with great weapon master to mimic power attack
Fighting style: great weapons
Subclass (Let's choose Battlemaster: 4d6 superiority dice to use with the Disarming Strike, Menacing Strike and Riposte maneuvers, DC 15)
Full skill proficiency in 5 skills of 18, plus one set of crafting tools of choice

+2 Initiative
AC 18
44 HP
Two attacks at +7 to hit, 2d6 +4 damage (or 'power attack' for +2 to hit and +14 damage) rerolling 1s and 2s once. Crits on a 20 for double dice damage
Action surge to gain an extra action (two more attacks) once per short rest (one hour break)
Second wind to heal 1d10 +5 HP as a bonus action

What I can observe:
3.5 Fighter has higher raw numbers on average: better initiative, better AC, better to hit and damage
5e fighter has more neat options: A self heal, ability to take an extra action, maneuvers that add to damage as well as have rider effects like fear or disarming.
3.5 Gets more options when building, 5e has more options in play

What might happen in a fight:
3.5 goes first, opts to charge in and power attack for full. This won't kill 5e unless its a max damage crit.

5es turn, uses second wind to heal up a bit and attacks, dancing around for a better angle if necessary. 5e chooses to add in disarming or menacing strike for extra oomph. 3.5 has a decent but not great chance of passing either one. 5e can also choose to use action surge for another two attacks, or to dodge or disengage. Shoving is also an option with solid chances which makes all other attacks easier to land (allowing the use of 'power attack').

3.5 is in a spot of bother after being disarmed, frightened or knocked prone. Two of those provoke an attack and the last forces him to abandon power attack to avoid missing, especially since now 5e gets to use riposte. After being hit up to four times he is also looking low on health and this fight could go either way and now if he misses 5e gets to use riposte. Not good options.

Actually pretty close when you look at it.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-07-09, 09:17 PM
Fighter-on-Fighter is a pure numbers game, and anything in 3.5 will have higher numbers than something in 5e. That's just how the game works. Doesn't matter how stupid you build the 3.5 guy, even the basic scaling will leave you with several times the raw offensive and defensive numbers.

A 20th level 5e character will be swinging in the +6-+14 range, depending on feats and magic items*; a 3.5 Fighter will have an AC of... 19 for full plate and Dex, +5 enhancement, +5 for a Ring of Protection, +5 for an Amulet of Natural Armor, and we're only at AC 34 and the 5e guy is just... not going to be hitting that without crits. Meanwhile, his AC is going to cap at what, 24, with magic*? With a +5 weapon and a Strength of 30+, the 3.5 guy's lowest iterative is going to have a better-than-even chance of hitting even before we pass basic bonuses. The 5e guy with a greatsword will swing for 2d6+5, four times a round; the 3.5 guy is swinging for 2d6+20 with, again, nothing but a plain sword and Strength. 5e can use Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master to power attack for -5/+10; the 3.5 guy can probably take -20/+40 with Power Attack (and nothing else!) and still hit reliably.

Here's how it'll play out: the 5e guy will come in and whiff repeatedly, possibly scratching the 3.5 fighter but, with his plethora of magic items, almost certainly not. The 3.5 guy will yawn, take a full attack, and probably dish out the entire ~224 damage the 5e guy can take in a single turn.

The 5e class is certainly superior in terms of design, but the two editions are simply not compatible in the way you think.


*And this is being generous; magic items are not assumed in 5e like they are in 3.5.

TripleD
2017-07-09, 11:36 PM
Here's how it'll play out: the 5e guy will come in and whiff repeatedly, possibly scratching the 3.5 fighter but, with his plethora of magic items, almost certainly not. The 3.5 guy will yawn, take a full attack, and probably dish out the entire ~224 damage the 5e guy can take in a single turn.

What about Eldritch Knight? Cast Fly and zoom out of range, then dive bomb in and cast acid splash (4d6 at level 20 if the Dex save fails, no attack roll involved). Acid is a fairly uncommon damage type, so the other guy is unlikely to have any damage reduction against it.

Granted the 5e guy likely only has 30 minutes of flight if they use all level 3 and 4 spell slots, but even at a 10% chance of damage being done that still works out to about 120d6 (avg. 420 damage).

War Magic and Eldritch strike also inch the damage up. Each time you cast Acid Splash you also get a weapon attack. Assuming you have a shortbow, that's another 2d6 + 5 on every critical, or about 30d6 + 45.

So the total damage is 150d6 + 45, or 570 damage on average.

Granted if the 3.5 fighter is anything like mine he'll have a bag of holding with several dozen healing belts in it, so the damage could end up being negated anyway.

Cazero
2017-07-10, 12:08 AM
3.5 can combat troll him by using trip, disarm and stand still with combat reflexes for attacks of opportunity making it so he is stuck in the same spot without a weapon while being beat to death. Thinking that would work
The 5e fighter can do the same thing without any feat tax. Try again.

xyamius
2017-07-10, 01:44 AM
The 5e fighter can do the same thing without any feat tax. Try again.

have to disagree since the 5e has no way to get extra attacks of opportunity nor do they have a way to strip all of an opponents movement from them.

The Battlemaster would only have 4 superiority dice unless they used one of their feats to get 3 more dice and to use them they have to hit the 3.5 fighter's ac while the 3.5 only has to hit the touch ac of the 5e fighter. So there is a significant difference there before starting the contested roll to see who wins since the 3.5 fighter would get more chances than the 5e to connect with a trip or disarm. If you min max both 3.5 and 5e you can get very close to each other with the 5e Brawny feat and athletics proficiency when looking at the contested roll vs Improved feat and wielding a weapon that gives a trip bump. The big difference is that the 5e is at disadvantage on the roll if attempting to disarm a 2 handed weapon and the 3.5 breaks even if both have a 2 handed weapon at a +4 to both.

The 5e looks better on paper until you customize the 3.5 which has far more options than 5e.

The only 5e fighter build that wins over any area of the 3.5 is the Eldritch Knight build but that is due to the 3.5 straight fighter class doesn't have a caster ability so doing any magic ranged damage wins out when looking at the two since one can and the other can not for a side by side look at the two.

Sir Chuckles
2017-07-10, 05:58 AM
I think the point of contention at higher levels isn't damage reduction or energy resistance, but miss chances. If they have to flip a coin to see if they can even roll to hit in the first place it's going to significantly impact any of their options. Plus, the way 3.5 scales defeats much of what those ranged builds can do just by virture of have a +20 Base Attack Bonus and assumed magic items.

I think the latter is the huge issue beyond the numbers game. Magic items aren't just +2 Flaming, they're Belts of Battle and Healing or Ioun Stones and Heartseeker Amulets.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-07-10, 06:43 AM
Also note that the level 5 matchup is about the worst case for the 3.5 Fighter, who gets their early-level-power-bump at 6th. Even then, I think a modicum of effort will put you way ahead.


What about Eldritch Knight? Cast Fly and zoom out of range, then dive bomb in and cast acid splash (4d6 at level 20 if the Dex save fails, no attack roll involved). Acid is a fairly uncommon damage type, so the other guy is unlikely to have any damage reduction against it.
...
Granted if the 3.5 fighter is anything like mine he'll have a bag of holding with several dozen healing belts in it, so the damage could end up being negated anyway.
See, that's another thing in 3.5's favor: magic items. Not only will the 3.5 Fighter have numbedrs so big that only natural 1's and 20's will really matter, they'll have the usual king's ransom in magic items. Flight? Got an item for that. Miss chance? Got an item for that. Healing? Extra actions? Got items for those.


The 5e fighter can do the same thing without any feat tax. Try again.

Trips: Shoves, meaning an opposed Athletics check. Not sure how we're handling skills that only one character has, but the 3.5 guy's raw Strength or Dex modifier is probably going to be higher than the 5e guy's entire bonus. Also, only 3.5 characters get to smack you when you move from 10ft-away-and-threatened to 5ft-away-and-threatened (unless the 5e guy throws feats at it too), and only they get to hit you for free after tripping you. Only they can get extra AoOs and free trips on dealing damage.
Disarms: There's a Battlemaster maneuver with a Strength save, which the 3.5 guy will pass, and there's an option in the DMG that an attack roll opposed by Athletics... and you have Disadvantage if you try it against a two-handed weapon. Good luck there, mate.