XP for Epic spells

[Hiro Quester]

My druid just reached Epic level. I had always assumed I'd take Epic Spellcasting at this level. I have been hoarding gold lately to be able to pay to develop such a spell. But now I look at the XP cost for developing Epic spells, I can't see how paying the XP cost is possible.

One Epic Spell I've considered developing would have a DC of 60. If the DM allows me a custom magic ring that adds a competence bonus to Spellcraft for casting Epic spells, that seems about reachable.

But the XP cost of developing that spell I had not figured. It would cost about 540,000 (9000x60) gp to develop, and 1/25 of that in XP is 21,600XP.

But a character cannot lose so much XP that they lose a level. Since it costs 20,000 XP to get from 20th to 21st level, I would never be able to develop such a spell. Not until I had enough XP to go up to level 22.

And that's not counting any XP cost per casting used to mitigate down the DC of the spell.

A different spell would have a DC of 35, and so cost 12,600XP, or more than half a level worth of XP.

Epic spells can be awesome, but I don't know if they are awesome enough to lose (or fail to gain) a whole level? Am I figuring this right?

[EldritchWeaver]

A week or so ago, this came up in another thread. IIRC, it was said to mitigate the DC and basically employ long term buffs and something like that. So it is possible to have some good spells. On another note, the XP can be saved by not leveling up immediately.

[Douglas]

If you have enough gold to throw at the problem and a source for purchasing epic gear, you can negate the xp cost by using a Rod of Excellent Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rods.htm#excellentMagic).

But yes, epic spells are really really expensive unless you mitigate the DC down to almost nothing. A cleverly chosen and designed one can be worth it, but you really have to find something exceptionally cost effective and/or use a lot of DC mitigation.

[Hiro Quester]

Yes. I’m mitigating like crazy in my calculations now.

But that rod is also a great idea. We’re about to do a dungeon-crawl that we have been told contains many artifacts that will be useful to us. I’ll make sure the DM knows that this artifact exists. (It might enable a high XP per casting mitigation. Or enable development of a higher DC spell.)

[weckar]

On another note, the XP can be saved by not leveling up immediately.
When you have enough XP, you level up. This is not a choice.

[Celestia]

Thought Bottles are nice.

[EldritchWeaver]

When you have enough XP, you level up. This is not a choice.

Actually, there is this exception:


XP Cost: Power and energy that the spellcaster would normally have is expended when making a magic item. The XP cost equals 1/25 the cost of the item in gold pieces (see the Dungeon Master’s Guide for item costs). A character cannot spend so much XP on an item that he or she loses a level. However, upon gaining enough XP to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level.

So this doesn't address the ELH directly, but as epic spells didn't exist yet, this is more a case of failing to future-proof the rules. I would consider an epic spell as a magic item, since both follow the craft rules.

[weckar]

You still cannot create anything requiring more exp than a levelup would be, as all exp for creation is epended at once.

[Douglas]

Yes. I’m mitigating like crazy in my calculations now.

But that rod is also a great idea. We’re about to do a dungeon-crawl that we have been told contains many artifacts that will be useful to us. I’ll make sure the DM knows that this artifact exists. (It might enable a high XP per casting mitigation. Or enable development of a higher DC spell.)
It's not actually an artifact, just an epic magic item. Anyone with the Craft Epic Rod feat and enough money and XP can make one. If your DM actually meant "artifacts" and not just "really powerful items", maybe he should consider making a homebrew more powerful version.

Also, just to be sure you understand the full power of what I was suggesting: you could develop an epic spell with DC in the millions, and pay 0 XP by spending one Rod of Excellent Magic on it. A single one of these rods can pay ALL of the XP cost of developing one epic spell, no matter how high the DC, at the cost of destroying the rod so you can't use the 2000 XP-for-spells/day feature afterwards.


You still cannot create anything requiring more exp than a levelup would be, as all exp for creation is epended at once.
How is "it's expended all at once" relevant to the exception?

Example: You're level 21, and have 20000 XP towards level 22. You gain 5000 XP for completing an adventure. You now have 25000 XP above level 21, enough to level up. Using this exception clause you decide to instead spend all of it on magic item creation. You have 25000 XP available to spend, which is more than the 21000 that leveling up would take.

[weckar]

Fair point. I suppose it is relevant how large of chunks of exp you get, because you frankly have NO influence how far above the treshold you will be going before you have a 'levelup moment'

[Sagetim]

This just helps drive home the reason I was happy that pathfinder and all subsequent and previous editions of dnd either had no xp cost for making magic items, or granted you bonus xp for completing magic items (that was a 2nd edition thing, maybe 1st too? but definately in the 2nd edition rules in the dmg about awarding bonus experience based on class).

Anyway, If you can get your hands on a rod of excellent magic, then I'd suggest holding onto it and researching a spell that you've mitigated the dc down with a regular xp cost, that way you can use the rod each day (say, 1000 xp per cast, and you can use the rod as many times per day as you can cast that spell anyway), or if you're going to full on shenanigans, then have the xp cost eat the rod's entire daily stipend of 2k and make the casting time obnoxiously long, but with a permanent duration. Just remember that you get a number of epic spells per day equal to your, mmmm, knowledge nature? as a druid? divided by 10. So knowledge ranks/10. And just taking epic spellcasting required you to have 24 of those, so you have 2 epic spells per day. Might as well plan your epic spells around the factors that you can use to make the most of them.

[Hiro Quester]

I would look at using that rod to mitigate the DC of epic spells (2000xp per casting is -20DC). Then the spell is cheaper to develop, and can be cast with relative impunity (1/day at least, or 2/day with 1000 xp/casting).

[Psyren]

Actually, there is this exception:



So this doesn't address the ELH directly, but as epic spells didn't exist yet, this is more a case of failing to future-proof the rules. I would consider an epic spell as a magic item, since both follow the craft rules.

The obvious solution is to use your level-up XP to craft one of those rods, then make the epic spell you had your eye on.