OOTS #1081 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Keltest]

Funny, I don't recall Mr Scruffy encountering the sphinx.

Having said that, that bodes ill for the crew of the Mechane.

[manuelj]

So now the heroes have a new deadline?

[Veya]

That does sound rather serious, the Order should look into getting a check up when this is all over...

[The Giant]

Funny, I don't recall Mr Scruffy encountering the sphinx.

Most people who get chicken pox do not encounter chickens.

[DougTheHead]

Being a goddess of plague must suck in a world where a Cure Disease spell exists.

[Peelee]

Ah, the mark of true evil: targeting a kitty.

[Reboot]

Of course, five weeks is longer than Belkar has to live anyway, and thus likely longer than the remaining story will last...

[ti'esar]

Of course, five weeks is longer than Belkar has to live anyway, and thus likely longer than the remaining story will last...

True, but "they saved the world and then all died horribly of disease a few weeks later" is still a thing that needs avoiding.

Not that it helps Hel much.

Also, what is the deal with those purple giants?

[oppyu]

So... the heroes are going to foil Hel's plan, only to die of Sphinx Pox in just over a month? Talk about a downer ending.

[Hackman]

Being a goddess of plague must suck in a world where a Cure Disease spell exists.

It's a 3rd level spell though and only cures one target, so massive outbreaks are still possible.

[Nephrahim]

Good thing they have a Cleric who can cure.... Oh, right.

Feels like every time I log on there's been a new comic. Loving that, starting to feel spoiled by the output.

[Veya]

Being a goddess of plague must suck in a world where a Cure Disease spell exists.

I would say being a goddess of plague must be awesome in a world where vaccines aren't as common or easily mass produced.

[Reboot]

True, but "they saved the world and then all died horribly of disease a few weeks later" is still a thing that needs avoiding.

Not that it helps Hel much.

Actually, it's been somewhere between a week and two weeks since Tarquin stabbed Roy with his own sword (re: a few strips back). But I think it's still "they'd drop dead post-story" territory even with the slightly tighter timeframe.

[Arkku]

Oh no, not Mr. Scruffy!

[dps]

So... the heroes are going to foil Hel's plan, only to die of Sphinx Pox in just over a month? Talk about a downer ending.

Elan will still get his happy ending, cause if the disease kills you by making your brain bleed until you die, he's probably immune.

Can animals be raised from the dead? 'Cause if not, I think we now know why Belkar will stay dead--it's not that they won't try to raise him, it's 'cause he'll prefer to stay dead with his cat.

[Avianmosquito]

Great plan, Hel.

:roy: "Oh, everybody got sick. Well, let's go repeatedly use the 3rd level spell that renders the entire concept of disease utterly pointless."

[hamishspence]

Interesting to see that Hel controls disease - she doesn't just get souls that die of disease. Makes sense that it's part of her portfolio.

[Peelee]

Actually, it's been somewhere between a week and two weeks since Tarquin stabbed Roy with his own sword (re: a few strips back).

That's a mighty liberal definition of "a few."

[johnbragg]

Dark. After the world is saved, we're looking at a massive outbreak.

First of all, the city the Mechane stops in to reprovision, rest & recuperate, etc.

Haley & Elan are likely to "tie up loose ends" with Ian Starshine, so disease vector out in Tarquin's desert city.

Epilogue in New Azure City.

It's not unlikely the heroes go to Gobbotopia. And if not, there's every chance that Redcloak picks up Sphinx Plague. (Hel ensures he fails his Fort Save.)

Does Varsuvius attempt to return home and make amends? Big mistake there.

Greg Not-Durkon, HPOH, is--probably immune? So resurrected Durkon is clean. Crud--he's not clean for long.

Course this is assuming that Sphinx pox is highly contagious.

(Yes I know Tarquin's dead and therefore it's not his city anymore, but nothing out there has a name for more than a few years before a new set of fake rulers changes all of it.)

[Darkohaku]

Don't you dare messing with Mr. Scruffy. Hel, this is now personal. :smallannoyed::belkar:

[Arkku]

Yes I know Tarquin's dead

What, when did he die?

[Leliel]

So... the heroes are going to foil Hel's plan, only to die of Sphinx Pox in just over a month? Talk about a downer ending.

No, they're going to display symptoms of Sphinx Pox in just over a month.

:durkon: Oy laddie, you too' three minutes to ask fer the baffroom. Ye feelin' all right?

:roy: The antonym of yes, a word meaning the negated answer to an inquiry.

:durkon: Eh, what iz "nay?"

:roy: The antonym of wrong.

Cue him buzzing by the temple to figure out what's wrong, and Cure Diseases all around. Of course, there's likely an outbreak in the North...cue the prophecy being technically fulfilled, in that Durkon heralded a bad epidemic.

[Psyren]

I actually feel for Hel. The disease rules are completely obnoxious to actually use :smallsigh:


Most people who get chicken pox do not encounter chickens.

Zing!


Interesting to see that Hel controls disease - she doesn't just get souls that die of disease. Makes sense that it's part of her portfolio.

Her control seems pretty limited judging by this comic. It seems like all she did was raise the DC so it was a guaranteed spread, but she can't actually change the onset and other annoying fiddly bits in the affliction section.

[Keltest]

Most people who get chicken pox do not encounter chickens.

Well obviously we need to seriously re-think what were naming our diseases then :smalltongue:

[Syncrogti]

Excellent, I too am getting spoiled. Sphinx Pox? Classic, well done. Glad to see the story progressing and being funny at the same time.

[johnbragg]

Plague is a real threat in most D&D settings for the common folk. Hiring a 5th level cleric to cast cure disease costs 150 gp list price. Wand of cure disease, which is what you'd want in case of plague, costs 5625 gp.

So unless you're living in the sort of society with generally benevolent, reasonable and pro-active rulers who would shell out 5000 gold because commoners are dying, you're going to be living in a society with a lot of dead commoners.

[KorvinStarmast]

Most people who get chicken pox do not encounter chickens. But many eat chicken. (And other stuff that tastes like chicken).

[ChaosOS]

That's rather dramatic of Hel. Maybe Thrym could help her chill out?

[Wildroses]

Well, considering Thrynn is hurt that Hel considers him a resource in her scheme and that even though he was told that he didn't think she meant it, I'd say we have more evidence Mr: "My reasons are my own" really wanted to be her consort because is in love with Hel, and not just trying to schmooze up to an up and coming power breaker. Poor guy. Maybe his broken heart will turn him to the right path and we'll discover Hel hath no fury like a Frost Giant scorned.

Five weeks? I'll be curious to see if this foreshadowing of a major plot point or a throwaway joke. If they get Durkon back he might know about the backup and take steps to cure everyone before the incubation period is over. But I feel sure Hel has another backup plan up her sleeve. She isn't a villain like Xykon and Redcloak, who make one plan then adjust it when it doesn't go off perfectly, or Tarquin who makes one plan then rages and sulks when it doesn't go off perfectly. She has back ups and contingencies for varieties of possible consequences.

[xroads]

Well, if Hel doesn't win, at least she'll have vengeance. On the crew at least. The heroes, if they don't die in the near future, can probably afford a magical cure.

[Reboot]

That's a mighty liberal definition of "a few."

Eh?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1077.html
"Fortnights passed since a villain impaled you on your own sword: zero!"

[Arkku]

Hiring a 5th level cleric to cast cure disease costs 150 gp list price. Wand of cure disease, which is what you'd want in case of plague, costs 5625 gp.


Well, the prices could be different for adventurers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html), for the commoners I would expect most good-aligned clerics to just cast cure diseases for free.

[KorvinStarmast]

So... the heroes are going to foil Hel's plan, only to die of Sphinx Pox in just over a month? Talk about a downer ending.
Lien and O'Chul are Paladins.

The OoTS should be meeting up with them at the pole pretty soon. Paladins have a cure disease option in their lay on hands, do they not? (No, that's a 5e deal). But at 6th level, Paladin's get Remove Disease once per week. At 9th, twice per week. At 12th, 3 times per week. Not sure what level they are, but I think the Sphinx Pox can be mitigated.

For Belkar to die while spouting poetry and bleeding from the brain is a sickly funny way for him to go: almost the antithesis of his being all martial all the time.

Well, the prices could be different for adventurers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html), for the commoners I would expect most good-aligned clerics to just cast cure diseases for free.
My PC Clerics always did. The idea was to simply do good and to display the kindness of my deity who provided me with spells. (Not playing a Cleric at the moment).

[xroads]

It's not unlikely the heroes go to Gobbotopia. And if not, there's every chance that Redcloak picks up Sphinx Plague. (Hel ensures he fails his Fort Save.)


Well in RC's case, he can cast "Cure Disease" on himself. Plus, I wouldn't doubt it if he wore a magic item that makes him immune to disease. After all, he hangs out with undead things on a regular basis. Who knows what kind of diseases he's already been exposed too.

[Reboot]

Lien and O'Chul are Paladins.

The OoTS should be meeting up with them at the pole pretty soon. Paladins have a cure disease option in their lay on hands, do they not? (No, that's a 5e deal). But at 6th level, Paladin's get Remove Disease once per week. At 9th, twice per week. At 12th, 3 times per week. Not sure what level they are, but I think the Sphinx Pox can be mitigated.
O'Chul has a Paladin level <5, and doesn't get LOH anyway (because he dumped Charisma).

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, the prices could be different for adventurers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html), for the commoners I would expect most good-aligned clerics to just cast cure diseases for free.


O'Chul has a Paladin level <5, and doesn't get LOH anyway (because he dumped Charisma).
How do we know this?

[dps]

Eh?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1077.html
"Fortnights passed since a villain impaled you on your own sword: zero!"

Yes, it was apparently somewhere between a week and two weeks ago, but you said "a few strips back", which was what was being questioned. It was 152 strips ago. That's really not "a few".

[PH7]

Hermod (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html)thought it was just a protest vote, Thrym didn't think she meant what she said. It seems no one took Hel seriously. I actually started to feel sorry for her...

But then she got giddy about a cat being sick and all my sympathy went out the window.

[Reboot]

How do we know this?
O-Chul has no Paladin mount - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1034.html - and he explicitly stated he dumped Charisma - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html


Yes, it was apparently somewhere between a week and two weeks ago, but you said "a few strips back", which was what was being questioned. It was 152 strips ago. That's really not "a few".

I was referring to Belkar's line in #1077 as "a few strips ago", not the stabbing.

[johnbragg]

What, when did he die?

Ooops. Yes, I forgot--Tarquin didn't die, he was left to live on anticlimactically.


Well in RC's case, he can cast "Cure Disease" on himself. Plus, I wouldn't doubt it if he wore a magic item that makes him immune to disease. After all, he hangs out with undead things on a regular basis. Who knows what kind of diseases he's already been exposed too.

The problem isn't Redcloak curing the disease. It's whether Redcloak notices that he has the disease before he infects half of Gobbotopia during the 5 week incubation period. By the time Redcloak notices something wrong, the outbreak is underway, and he's blowing 9th level spell slots to cure 36 victims at a time, max. (Mass Heal, chalk out a 5' hex grid around Redcloak's position so that everyone's within 15' of Redcloak and 30' of each other.)

The problem is the 5 week incubation period, during most of which you're contagious without knowing you're infected.

EDIT: But yes, if Redcloak is disease-immune, that solves the problem from Gobbotopia's POV.

[xroads]

Well, the prices could be different for adventurers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html), for the commoners I would expect most good-aligned clerics to just cast cure diseases for free.

Doubt it. Durkon and his mother discussed this topic in a flash back sequence. Little Durkon asked his mom why the church would not regenerate her arm for free and she replied that the church had to make a living as well.

But then again, if they lose their entire flock to disease, then they'd be in trouble. So who knows. Maybe a discount day? Buy cure disease for two family members, save a third for free? :smallwink:

[JumboWheat01]

No! Not the kitty! That's just plain evil.

Oh, wait...

[Quartz]

I wonder if Bloodfeast and - in particular - Blackwing are going to be immune, being theropods? And how will that work out to save the party.

[Svata]

Also, what is the deal with those purple giants?

I believe they are undead.

[ManuelSacha]

When you think that the subplots are starting to get resolved one by one, the author just adds some more long term subplots to pile up with the others. :smallfurious:
I love it. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

I believe they are undead.

Maybe not - they speak coloured text on a coloured background, not white text on a black background.

Maybe they're fiends, or at least outsiders, of some kind? In a bonus strip right before the Hogwarts spoof strip (252 or so), Sabine's old friend (Jeff?) had a similar speech bubble (yellow, not purple) - unlike Qarr who is red text on black background.

[khadgar567]

funny that hel needs to use disease with 14515200 turns incubation time were scruffy can survive at least 8d6 damage plus the whole encounter so chance that random order member passing fort check or is kinda so high that even elan might take 20 on that check.

[Peelee]

Eh?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1077.html
"Fortnights passed since a villain impaled you on your own sword: zero!"

Oh, I thought you meant the actual strip he got stabbed in. My bad.

[Unoriginal]

You know, it'd be a good moment for Loki to show up and offer his daughter to get out scott-free from all of this -with a whole bunch of vampires with character levels, to boot, which put her in a way better position she used to be - giving her the occasion to try again another day.

After all, the gods aren't voting against destroying the world ever, they're voting against destroying the world preemptively rather than just before the Snarl gets out of its prison.

Which means that Hel would still become the big boss if the Order failed their main missions, rather than their current "stop the Vampire Priest" one. And by consequence she's better off simply focusing her ressources to kill the order and not care about the vote rather than try to control the vote.

[MReav]

Also, what is the deal with those purple giants?

I imagine they're negative energy spirits. Either they get used to create vampires, or they're what happens to the competent negative energy spirits used to create vampires after their physical shells are destroyed (incompetent ones are destroyed or tormented).

[Gift Jeraff]

Durkulon will know about the disease from his communing with Hel and heal everyone when he heel face turns.

Also, what is the deal with those purple giants?

Giants with the fiendish template, maybe? Though I think we've only seen animals and vermin with celestial/fiendish templates in OOTS.

[danielxcutter]

Most people who get chicken pox do not encounter chickens.

Okay, I really want to sig this but I'm not sure if he's okay with it.


Ooops. Yes, I forgot--Tarquin didn't die, he was left to live on anticlimactically.



The problem isn't Redcloak curing the disease. It's whether Redcloak notices that he has the disease before he infects half of Gobbotopia during the 5 week incubation period. By the time Redcloak notices something wrong, the outbreak is underway, and he's blowing 9th level spell slots to cure 36 victims at a time, max. (Mass Heal, chalk out a 5' hex grid around Redcloak's position so that everyone's within 15' of Redcloak and 30' of each other.)

The problem is the 5 week incubation period, during most of which you're contagious without knowing you're infected.

EDIT: But yes, if Redcloak is disease-immune, that solves the problem from Gobbotopia's POV.

The Crimson Mantle grants disease immunity.

[Arkku]

Doubt it. Durkon and his mother discussed this topic in a flash back sequence. Little Durkon asked his mom why the church would not regenerate her arm for free and she replied that the church had to make a living as well.

True, but I would argue the situations are quite different when it comes to regrowing an arm (that she can clearly live without) and curing a deadly, infectious disease that may wipe out the majority of the population if left uncured. =)

[pendell]

The important thing, from Hel's perspective, is that her evil scheme will be over and done with one way or the other long before then. Either she will succeed and the world will end before the time is up, or her scheme will be foiled and the deaths of the crew will be beside the point. Either way, it does nothing to solve her immediate problem, which is foiling the heroes.

Also, from a meta perspective, we know darn well that Roy and company aren't going to die from a disease before thwarting Xykon, and Elan's promised "happy ending" certainly does not include death from a bleeding brain. So our heroes will get a cure between now and then, and I think it likely the Mechane's crew will as well. This story is written by Rich Burlew, not George R R Martin. I don't think he created the character of Bandanna as a second-order protaganist just to kill her off in such a gruesome way, to say nothing of the rest of the crew.

Nonetheless ... I know it's supposed to be funny, but the symptoms and the proposed death are just too grim for me to laugh at.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kantaki]

Aww... Poor Helsy.
Seems like this is one of those days where absolutely nothing works as planned.:smallbiggrin:

[Dunsparce]

A minor reveal that no-one has brought up yet is that the High Priest of Thrym is only half frost giant, which is why he is rather short(even accounting for him being hunched over) compared to the frost giants at the pass.

[Mikemical]

because is in love with Hel, and not just trying to schmooze up to an up and coming power breaker.

He also really really really hates Odin in particular and Asgardians in general, which is also another reason to help her.

[Smolder]

"Spouting riddles?"

Is it failure to solve the riddles that makes your brain bleed? Meaning you can stave off death for a while if you're really good at brain teasers?

[hamishspence]

Giants with the fiendish template, maybe? Though I think we've only seen animals and vermin with celestial/fiendish templates in OOTS.

We have seen a half-celestial human, at least:


That's not an angel. It's a half-celestial human. And she's like a 5th level fighter. True angels would have green skin, like Thor's planetar servant.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You guys are talking this disease far more seriously than I would've expected. Am I the only person who expects never to hear of it again?

GW

[Peelee]

Eh?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1077.html
"Fortnights passed since a villain impaled you on your own sword: zero!"

Oh, I thought you meant the actual strip he got stabbed in. My bad.

[Ashram]

"Spouting riddles?"

Is it failure to solve the riddles that makes your brain bleed? Meaning you can stave off death for a while if you're really good at brain teasers?

It's a fancy way of saying the disease deals Wisdom damage, then Constitution damage. :P

[Avianmosquito]

You guys are talking this disease far more seriously than I would've expected. Am I the only person who expects never to hear of it again?

GW

Really, we SHOULD never hear of it again, as disease has no meaning to a party this level. Especially with a haggler who can get a couple dozen casts of Remove Disease for six copper and a poptart.

[Unoriginal]

It's been been a while since I've read the obscure 3.5 manuals, but is half-Frost Giant a template that exists?

Wonder why I never thought the priest at the Godsmoot could be an half-Giant.

[unbeliever536]

O-Chul has no Paladin mount - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1034.html - and he explicitly stated he dumped Charisma - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html



It's possible (if somewhat unlikely, given his career path) that O-Chul has those spirit things from Dungeonscape instead of a special mount.

[Kish]

You guys are talking this disease far more seriously than I would've expected. Am I the only person who expects never to hear of it again?
Could be. I expect it will take up one panel and one line from Durkon, post-Resurrection.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

By the way, oppyu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?65244-oppyu), I believe you owe me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22101216&postcount=22) five hypothetical internet dollars.

We shook on it, so I might as well collect.

GW

[mouser9169]

No, not Mr. Scruffy!!!

Looking ahead though, they'll be at Oona and O-Chul's village, where Oona will probably be able to get the local bugbear cleric to cure them for a reasonable fee, assuming Durkon doesn't come back somehow...

[ORione]

In panels one and three we can see a dwarf carrying a boulder to the right. In panel one we also see a dwarf carrying a boulder to the left. If the boulders are needed in those respective directions, they could leave the left one to the left and the right one to the right. So presumably, Hel's making them carry around boulders just to be a jerk.

[AuthorGirl]

The Sphinx Pox is somewhat worrisome, but I doubt it'll end anything - killing your protagonists by disease is a dreadful ending and Mr. Burlew probably understands that.

Anyway, I'm happy; not only is production up, the party's back together! It makes me really happy just to see them all bantering again, even just all present in the same strip, it's much more enjoyable than when the party's split. Now we just need Durkon back . . .

[137beth]

No, not Mr. Scruffy!!!

Looking ahead though, they'll be at Oona and O-Chul's village, where Oona will probably be able to get the local bugbear cleric to cure them for a reasonable fee, assuming Durkon doesn't come back somehow...

Would Oona be willing to help the Order, when they are already helping Xykon?

[anonynos]

Oh no, not Mr. Scruffy!

This is what I come here to say as well... soooooo

OH NO NOT MR. SCRUFFY!

I think this falls into the trope of people caring more for the animal deaths than the person deaths in movies... It's truly the most evil of villains that target the heroes pets.

[Shining Wrath]

I guess being the god of evil Frost Giants doesn't prepare you for the level of evil Helsy (heh!) represents.

We now know that without clerical aid (Cure Disease at a minimum), everyone on board the Mechane is doomed. DOOMED, I TELL YOU! Also, if everyone is infected, if the Mechane reaches the dwarven lands presumably the infection will spread throughout the dwarven population. Things are now rather complicated; even without the end of the world Hel is going to get a lot of dishonored dwarves dying by non-combat means.

Rich, you are truly evil to use Mr. Scruffy as a disease vector. The cat? Seriously?

"If it loved me it would replicate faster" may be the best spoiled-evil-goddess line ever. :smallbiggrin:

I do look forward to hearing the riddles everyone will start spouting as the fever takes hold, though.

[Anarion]

Ominous, but mostly irrelevant. Though I look forward to the bonus panel we get at some point that shows everyone going increasingly crazy as they try to ask for some water but can only speak in riddles.

[Chei]

Woah, suddenly page. Okay, yes, interesting. I can't tell if Thrym is legitimately being nice to his followers or just trying to talk them up for a few more scraps of Hel's non-existent favor. Probably both. Edit: Nope, I just really needed that energy drink.

The really interesting information, to me, is that those were his best clerics outside of his representative. Ignoring the half-breed comment, it seems like a demigod may only have a handful of decent clerics. I wonder if Thrym is representative of demigods in this? We know Hel only has a few, but she's specifically an outlier.

Editedit: How many clerics would Dvalin have outside of his representative? Could they not be counted on to show up at the vote in some numbers?

Is the Dark One technically a demigod? He certainly has a swarm of low-level clerics, but we haven't met one that even approaches Redcloak's level.

[anonynos]

You guys are talking this disease far more seriously than I would've expected. Am I the only person who expects never to hear of it again?

GW

It's only because it's a threat to the cat. Don't mess with cat's on the internet.

[Avianmosquito]

Woah, suddenly page. Okay, yes, interesting. I can't tell if Thrym is legitimately being nice to his followers or just trying to talk them up for a few more scraps of Hel's non-existent favor. Probably both.

The really interesting information, to me, is that those were his best clerics outside of his representative. Ignoring the half-breed comment, it seems like a demigod may only have a handful of decent clerics. I wonder if Thrym is representative of demigods in this? We know Hel only has a few, but she's specifically an outlier.

Is the Dark One technically a demigod? He certainly has a swarm of low-level clerics, but we haven't met one that even approaches Redcloak's level.

It seems likely to me, given the reveal from Durkon's mother that only the high priest of Odin could cast regenerate, meaning only one official dwarven priest is 13th level or higher, that Thyrm is indeed representative of a typical demigod.

[Shining Wrath]

Most people who get chicken pox do not encounter chickens.

Did they chicken out because they feared the fowl disease, but caught it anyway?


True, but "they saved the world and then all died horribly of disease a few weeks later" is still a thing that needs avoiding.

Not that it helps Hel much.

Also, what is the deal with those purple giants?

Hel by tradition is served by Frost Giants. I don't know if they are still alive. These may be Zombie Frost Giants or other undead.


Elan will still get his happy ending, cause if the disease kills you by making your brain bleed until you die, he's probably immune.

Can animals be raised from the dead? 'Cause if not, I think we now know why Belkar will stay dead--it's not that they won't try to raise him, it's 'cause he'll prefer to stay dead with his cat.

Joke accepted, but there is no happy ending for Elan that doesn't have Haley in it, and Haley most certainly has a brain.


Dark. After the world is saved, we're looking at a massive outbreak.

First of all, the city the Mechane stops in to reprovision, rest & recuperate, etc.

Haley & Elan are likely to "tie up loose ends" with Ian Starshine, so disease vector out in Tarquin's desert city.

Epilogue in New Azure City.

It's not unlikely the heroes go to Gobbotopia. And if not, there's every chance that Redcloak picks up Sphinx Plague. (Hel ensures he fails his Fort Save.)

Does Varsuvius attempt to return home and make amends? Big mistake there.

Greg Not-Durkon, HPOH, is--probably immune? So resurrected Durkon is clean. Crud--he's not clean for long.

Course this is assuming that Sphinx pox is highly contagious.

(Yes I know Tarquin's dead and therefore it's not his city anymore, but nothing out there has a name for more than a few years before a new set of fake rulers changes all of it.)

Tarquin is not dead, although there are several threats to his continued existence - Divine Unmaking, the Snarl that emerged near Laurin and Miron, Sphinx Fever (who did Mr. Scruffy catch it from, if not a sphinx?), and the revolution.


The important thing, from Hel's perspective, is that her evil scheme will be over and done with one way or the other long before then. Either she will succeed and the world will end before the time is up, or her scheme will be foiled and the deaths of the crew will be beside the point. Either way, it does nothing to solve her immediate problem, which is foiling the heroes.

Also, from a meta perspective, we know darn well that Roy and company aren't going to die from a disease before thwarting Xykon, and Elan's promised "happy ending" certainly does not include death from a bleeding brain. So our heroes will get a cure between now and then, and I think it likely the Mechane's crew will as well. This story is written by Rich Burlew, not George R R Martin. I don't think he created the character of Bandanna as a second-order protaganist just to kill her off in such a gruesome way, to say nothing of the rest of the crew.

Nonetheless ... I know it's supposed to be funny, but the symptoms and the proposed death are just too grim for me to laugh at.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I expect some sort of reward for good deeds to include curing the Sphinx Fever - whichever Norse god handles healing (Frigg? Freya?)


In panels one and three we can see a dwarf carrying a boulder to the right. In panel one we also see a dwarf carrying a boulder to the left. If the boulders are needed in those respective directions, they could leave the left one to the left and the right one to the right. So presumably, Hel's making them carry around boulders just to be a jerk.

It's almost as though life in Hel's domain is one of burdensome toil and suffering. Who saw that coming?

[johnbragg]

Ignoring the half-breed comment, it seems like a demigod may only have a handful of decent clerics. I wonder if Thrym is representative of demigods in this?

This seems reasonable--the main gods attract most of the worshippers, therefore most of the worship. Therefore they have more temples, which means more jobs for their priests. And, to the extent that proselytizing is important, that becomes a self-reinforcing spiral. Durkon's a cleric of Thor partially because he went to Thor-temple every Thors-day as a dwarfchild. So he didn't even consider a vocation as a cleric of, say, Dvalin, First King of The Dwarves, who just gets spotlight on one day a year, and even that festival is handled by the local clerics of the Northern (full) Gods.

[Chei]

It seems likely to me, given the reveal from Durkon's mother that only the high priest of Odin could cast regenerate, meaning only one official dwarven priest is 13th level or higher, that Thyrm is indeed representative of a typical demigod.

That is very true, though she also said something to the effect of "these days", meaning the cleric demographic in flashback may not be a firm predictor of the present. So maybe we can expect full-on gods to be packing more clerics in the present (it's been over forty years since that flashback), but demigods are stuck around that level.

[ChillerInstinct]

I was going to say that "it's okay, the Order probably isn't infectious yet, it's probably only being around Mr. Scruffy that would spread the disease"... And then I remembered that the Scruffster was, at one point, roughly a foot away from a gnome back in Tinkertown. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html)

Though I suppose the Shrine of Hoder could prevent a total outbreak if they wanted. I mean, they can heal end stage emphysema, a early stage little brain disease should be cake.

[Alex Warlorn]

So even if they stop the vampires, stop Xykon, an save the world, the heroes will just die, along with everything they've met since the desert? :-(

[Avianmosquito]

I think a lot of you are wildly overestimating how dangerous this disease is. We don't know if it's airborne, can spread by contact, or only bodily fluids, its fatality rate when Hel isn't interfering, or really much else about it. Especially with a single point source like this, it is unlikely a major outbreak will occur. (Especially since fatality counts HARD against the communicability of a disease.)

[johnbragg]

So even if they stop the vampires, stop Xykon, an save the world, the heroes will just die, along with everything they've met since the desert? :-(

NO, they'll have to stop a magical plague. Either through grinding out thousands of castings of cure disease spells--boring NPC stuff--or, through finding the Lost Doohickey of Plot that will give them some sort of leverage over Hel and somehow coerce or entice her to call off the plague.

[ChillerInstinct]

So even if they stop the vampires, stop Xykon, an save the world, the heroes will just die, along with everything they've met since the desert? :-(

Once they get Durkon back, they're golden. Being undead, he would have been immune to the disease, therefore his five week timer would only start after he's rezzed, plenty of time for him to cook up enough Cure Disease to save the Order and the Crew. The Godsmoot is literally a collection of high level Clerics, so that's an easy fix. And like I mentioned, Tinkertown has Clerics which should be willing to deal with an outbreak before it becomes an epidemic.

The desert is the only real exception, but presumably Tarquin's group (plus his soldiers at the Rift) were the only ones exposed. It's not a great setup, but it's possible they weren't close enough to Scruffy to contract the disease to begin with.

[ORione]

Or Belkar will boost his Wisdom. Remove Disease is on the Ranger spell list.

[johnbragg]

I think a lot of you are wildly overestimating how dangerous this disease is. We don't know if it's airborne,

Well, we don't know that it's NOT airborne. All we know is that that the cat picked it up in the desert, and that Hel ensured that everyone on the ship caught it.

How that worked mechanically is up to Word of Giant. Did she boost the DC sky-high for a limited time? Or did she change the nature of the disease?


can spread by contact, or only bodily fluids, its fatality rate when Hel isn't interfering, or really much else about it. Especially with a sigle point source like this, it is unlikely a major outbreak will occur.

[Unoriginal]

Woah, suddenly page. Okay, yes, interesting. I can't tell if Thrym is legitimately being nice to his followers or just trying to talk them up for a few more scraps of Hel's non-existent favor. Probably both. Edit: Nope, I just really needed that energy drink.

The really interesting information, to me, is that those were his best clerics outside of his representative. Ignoring the half-breed comment, it seems like a demigod may only have a handful of decent clerics. I wonder if Thrym is representative of demigods in this? We know Hel only has a few, but she's specifically an outlier.

Editedit: How many clerics would Dvalin have outside of his representative? Could they not be counted on to show up at the vote in some numbers?

Is the Dark One technically a demigod? He certainly has a swarm of low-level clerics, but we haven't met one that even approaches Redcloak's level.

Demigod isn't the fact of being half-god, in 3.5, it's a rank of power, usually relative to how much worshipers you have and how influencial your church is. So Thrym having only an handful of priests of note is not a surprise.

[Chei]

I think a lot of you are wildly overestimating how dangerous this disease is. We don't know if it's airborne, can spread by contact, or only bodily fluids, its fatality rate when Hel isn't interfering, or really much else about it. Especially with a single point source like this, it is unlikely a major outbreak will occur. (Especially since fatality counts HARD against the communicability of a disease.)

I dig what you're saying. I think people are overestimating its communicability because Hel specifically used her control over disease to spread it over the entire ship. That doesn't necessarily imply that everyone outside the ship will be similarly susceptible. It was clearly a targeted intervention that Hel herself overestimated.

That said, an incubation of five weeks is pretty good for communicability, depending on how much of that time is contagious.

[Avianmosquito]

I dig what you're saying. I think people are overestimating its communicability because Hel specifically used her control over disease to spread it over the entire ship. That doesn't necessarily imply that everyone outside the ship will be similarly susceptible. It was clearly a targeted intervention that Hel herself overestimated.

That said, an incubation of five weeks is pretty good for communicability, depending on how much of that time is contagious.

But is Hel's interference retroactive? She only did this just now, you know. I doubt it effects anybody who was only exposed before she cast her god magic.

[Chei]

I'm not suggesting it would be retroactive. However, there is also no guarantee that the strain currently affecting the ship is not still divinely communicable, and if it is, then five weeks is plenty of time to spread widely.

[Kish]

Does anyone seriously think this strip introduces either 1) a major plot point, or 2) an excuse for Rich to, in Gurm fashion, go "haw haw everything is awful blood death pain"? Not "hypothetically speaking, assuming X qualities of the disease and Y aspects of the number of clerics in any major metropolitan area," but in the actual comic?

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's been been a while since I've read the obscure 3.5 manuals, but is half-Frost Giant a template that exists?

The basic rule in 3.XE is you can be half anything. And the template is probably in the Monster Manual.

[Avianmosquito]

Does anyone seriously think this strip introduces either 1) a major plot point, or 2) an excuse for Rich to, in Gurm fashion, go "haw haw everything is awful blood death pain"? Not "hypothetically speaking, assuming X qualities of the disease and Y aspects of the number of clerics in any major metropolitan area," but in the actual comic?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm about 90% sure the whole thing was just a joke about Hel's powers being useless.

[Thecommander236]

Funny, I don't recall Mr Scruffy encountering the sphinx.

Having said that, that bodes ill for the crew of the Mechane.

Pun intended?

[Quebbster]

Would Oona be willing to help the Order, when they are already helping Xykon?

Oona mostly helps Xykon to make sure he doesn't destroy Monster Hollow and the clan's livelihood. Helping the Order could absolutely be in her interest too.

[johnbragg]

Does anyone seriously think this strip introduces either 1) a major plot point, or 2) an excuse for Rich to, in Gurm fashion, go "haw haw everything is awful blood death pain"? Not "hypothetically speaking, assuming X qualities of the disease and Y aspects of the number of clerics in any major metropolitan area," but in the actual comic?

Probably not, but if The Giant wants to do an epilogue, this plague is a good MacGuffin.

And Rich doesn't wallow in it, but you do remember the sack of Azure City, and Familicide, right? Really Bad Things happen in the OOTSverse.

EDIT: Setting aside casual goblin-massacring by Paladins.

[Carl]

I guess being the god of evil Frost Giants doesn't prepare you for the level of evil Helsy (heh!) represents.

We now know that without clerical aid (Cure Disease at a minimum), everyone on board the Mechane is doomed. DOOMED, I TELL YOU! Also, if everyone is infected, if the Mechane reaches the dwarven lands presumably the infection will spread throughout the dwarven population. Things are now rather complicated; even without the end of the world Hel is going to get a lot of dishonored dwarves dying by non-combat means.

Rich, you are truly evil to use Mr. Scruffy as a disease vector. The cat? Seriously?

"If it loved me it would replicate faster" may be the best spoiled-evil-goddess line ever. :smallbiggrin:

I do look forward to hearing the riddles everyone will start spouting as the fever takes hold, though.

Well if it turns out there's a lot of infected dwarfs and the dwarfs find out about it in time we may see the order get a wee bit of assistance from yon laddies vs Xykon. That would actually be kinda cool.

[klarg1]

Probably not, but if The Giant wants to do an epilogue, this plague is a good MacGuffin.

And Rich doesn't wallow in it, but you do remember the sack of Azure City, and Familicide, right? Really Bad Things happen in the OOTSverse.

EDIT: Setting aside casual goblin-massacring by Paladins.


Really bad things do happen, but we usually only hear about them when they are tied to story-related events. Familicide was a major part of V's character arc, but offing the entire crew of the Mechane a couple of weeks after they (probably) finish their part in the main plot seems a bit random and out-of-character.

I won't say it *can't* happen, but it would surprise me.

[Curupira]

Well in RC's case, he can cast "Cure Disease" on himself. Plus, I wouldn't doubt it if he wore a magic item that makes him immune to disease. After all, he hangs out with undead things on a regular basis. Who knows what kind of diseases he's already been exposed too.

Well...


Readcloack is the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Crimson_Mantle), a powerful artifact that, among other perks,

also protects the wearer against disease, including magical ones such as Lirian's Guardian Virus.


I think he'll be fine against the sphynx pox threat.

[Quibblicious]

Hermod (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html)thought it was just a protest vote, Thrym didn't think she meant what she said. It seems no one took Hel seriously. I actually started to feel sorry for her...

But then she got giddy about a cat being sick and all my sympathy went out the window.

This makes me think that Thrym may change his vote since she cast him aside like garbage.

Q

[Curupira]

Can animals be raised from the dead? 'Cause if not, I think we now know why Belkar will stay dead--it's not that they won't try to raise him, it's 'cause he'll prefer to stay dead with his cat.

It would be an awesome and fitting way for Belkar to depart this world.

[Curupira]

This makes me think that Thrym may change his vote since she cast him aside like garbage.

Q

"No backsies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html)".

[Kantaki]

This makes me think that Thrym may change his vote since she cast him aside like garbage.

Q

To his great regret Loki has to inform you that he successfully pushed for a „no Backsies” rule for Godsmoot votes.

[Psyren]

Really, we SHOULD never hear of it again, as disease has no meaning to a party this level. Especially with a haggler who can get a couple dozen casts of Remove Disease for six copper and a poptart.

It's not the Order I'm worried about though; the NPCs ferrying them are the ones in danger here, and any other NPCs they come into contact with.


By the way, oppyu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?65244-oppyu), I believe you owe me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22101216&postcount=22) five hypothetical internet dollars.

We shook on it, so I might as well collect.

GW

To be fair, dropping the artillery IS a negative. It was useful for more than just attacking. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0933.html) It's just that being too heavy to fly would have been an even bigger negative.

[Shining Wrath]

What we don't know is who or what Mr. Scruffy contacted Sphinx Fever from.
Did Hel infect him directly? That would seem to break the "Northern Gods don't meddle in the domain of the Southern Gods" rule.
If Hel didn't just point the divine finger of disease at Mr. Scruffy, there's a patient (Scruffy - 1) down there somewhere in the desert, possibly spouting riddles as their brain starts to rot.

[warmachine]

What gets me is the guard is in a medieval society yet understands germ theory.

[ORione]

Well if it turns out there's a lot of infected dwarfs and the dwarfs find out about it in time we may see the order get a wee bit of assistance from yon laddies vs Xykon. That would actually be kinda cool.

Oh man, now I'm imagining how confused Redcloak and Xykon would be when a bunch of random dwarves spout riddles while swinging weapons at them. :smallbiggrin:

As for Thrym changing his vote, he can't do that. But if he wanted to, he could order his priest to leave the room. That would make him lose his vote, thus breaking the tie in favor of not destroying the world. Since that would solve the Order's problems, that will of course not happen.

[johnbragg]

What gets me is the guard is in a medieval society yet understands germ theory.

Well, he's a guard in the palace of the goddess of death and disease. If Redcloak knows about the periodic table, I'd expect Hel's top minions to know about the details of epidemiology.

[Kantaki]

What gets me is the guard is in a medieval society yet understands germ theory.

But he doesn't live in a medieval society, he lives in the realm of a goddess of death and disease.
So it's not that surprising he knows a thing or two about his boss' area of expertise.
Admittedly, so should Hel, but I guess she got a bit over exited.
And it wouldn't be the first time a god(ess) knows less about their job than one of their assistants.

[Jasdoif]

What gets me is the guard is in a medieval society yet understands germ theory.Well, reading the disease rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#disease) would be enough for "the incubation period is how long it takes before effects appear".

[The MunchKING]

Also, what is the deal with those purple giants?

Presumably, like the angels hanging out with Thor, they are Giants who died of disease or something and are in her service now.

[The MunchKING]

That's a mighty liberal definition of "a few."

5 strips ago seems like "a few" to me. And that's where Belkar said it hadn't been a fortnight since Roy got stabbed with his own sword.

[8BitNinja]

What gets me is the guard is in a medieval society yet understands germ theory.

I think that's because OotS has no set time period

[Kantaki]

Presumably, like the angels hanging out with Thor, they are Giants who died of disease or something and are in her service now.

The angels serving Thor were giants who died of disease?:smallconfused::smalltongue:

[Hopeless]

Firstly who healed Mr Scruffy after his battle aboard the airship with Durkon's rats?

It was docked with a citadel filled to bursting with clerics, admittedly the Neutral Guardians of the place were vamped by Durkon but that airship must have some source of healing?

I figure Hel only knows apparently Mr Scruffy was infected, but why only the cat and not the entire Order?

I think five weeks passes and that's when Hel discovers whilst she was busy arranging the ambush the entire order, airship crew and animal companions were dosed with cure disease for something other than sphinx pox!

Loki is the God of Mischief it wouldn't stretch anything if he was paying attention to what she's doing!

[The MunchKING]

Firstly who healed Mr Scruffy after his battle aboard the airship with Durkon's rats?

"Cure" X "Wounds" spells don't do anything to heal disease though, so if the healers were just told "Attacked by rats" and not "carrying a magical disease", then they probably wouldn't cast Cure Disease on him even if they had it.

That said "Attacked by rats" is the most common way adventurers get low-end disease, so if Belkar were wise and didn't thing Mr. Scruffy could make the Fort Saves, he would have seen if he could swing something.

That said, it was V who brought it in for healing rather than Belkar, so whatever.

[The MunchKING]

The angels serving Thor were giants who died of disease?:smallconfused::smalltongue:

*rolleyes* I KNEW I wasn't being perfectly clear when I typed it, but I didn't want to take the time to type it better/more clearly. I assumed people would follow my logic. :smalltongue:

[hroþila]

I see the Anglicized spelling "O'Chul" for the guy from the legendary Uí Ciúil clan is getting more and more popular in the forum.

Count me among those who don't expect this disease thing to amount to anything at all.

[Thorongil]

Ever since HP, the term "half-breed" makes my skin crawl. Bravo, Giant. Bravo.

[johnbragg]

But is Hel's interference retroactive? She only did this just now, you know. I doubt it effects anybody who was only exposed before she cast her god magic.

Or she only revealed it just now. We really don't know.

[Kish]

Probably not, but if The Giant wants to do an epilogue, this plague is a good MacGuffin.

And Rich doesn't wallow in it, but you do remember the sack of Azure City, and Familicide, right? Really Bad Things happen in the OOTSverse.

EDIT: Setting aside casual goblin-massacring by Paladins.
I remember lots of grim aspects of the plot (and a joke about Thor being callous, back in the Dungeon of Dorukan). I don't remember "now I kill off lots of characters because yay grimdark!" since the comic's had a larger plot and neither do you.

[pendell]

I think that's because OotS has no set time period

They have airships and sewer systems and Teevos and police departments (See: Cliffport PD), something that didn't appear in the real world until the Nineteenth century (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Police_Act_1829). Also women's rights.

OOTS is a modern world with a fantasy gloss, not a medieval world. About the only way it is different from a modern world is that they don't have guns or artillery.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To be fair, dropping the artillery IS a negative. It was useful for more than just attacking. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0933.html) It's just that being too heavy to fly would have been an even bigger negative.

All fair points, but that wasn't the full extent of the wager.

GW

[johnbragg]

I remember lots of grim aspects of the plot (and a joke about Thor being callous, back in the Dungeon of Dorukan). I don't remember "now I kill off lots of characters because yay grimdark!" since the comic's had a larger plot and neither do you.

I don't expect millions to die in a plague. (I don't expect the dwarven nations to be taken over by HPOH and his vampire thralls, I don't expect the Snarl to unmake the world, either.)

If the plague becomes a plot point, it's that millions WILL die in a plague if the heroes don't save the day, heroically.

It's only "yay grimdark" if they fail to stop the plague.

[Darth Tom]

Hel is reminding me a lot of Tsukiko. I wonder whether this petulance is a significant part of her characterisation? Just thinking that as the daughter of Loki, she might be somehow a "less mature" god in as teenage angst phase. Who better to rule the underworld?

[Kantaki]

*rolleyes* I KNEW I wasn't being perfectly clear when I typed it, but I didn't want to take the time to type it better/more clearly. I assumed people would follow my logic. :smalltongue:

What is this „logic” you are talking about? Can you eat it?:smallbiggrin:


About the only way it is different from a modern world is that they don't have guns or artillery.

Actually... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html)

[Unoriginal]

"No backsies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html)".

He could tell his priest to leave. The god's representative has to be there for the vote to count.

[Peelee]

5 strips ago seems like "a few" to me. And that's where Belkar said it hadn't been a fortnight since Roy got stabbed with his own sword.

You're late to the party.

Oh, I thought you meant the actual strip he got stabbed in. My bad.

[Kish]

I don't expect millions to die in a plague. (I don't expect the dwarven nations to be taken over by HPOH and his vampire thralls, I don't expect the Snarl to unmake the world, either.)

If the plague becomes a plot point, it's that millions WILL die in a plague if the heroes don't save the day, heroically.

It's only "yay grimdark" if they fail to stop the plague.
So is that a "yes" to "do you think this is a major plot point" then? I associated "epilogue" with something fixed after the story--in this case, something like a strip saying "millions of people died of the plague," but now I'm thinking that you meant it more like "something that builds on something in this strip." But that seems to make your answer to my question, "Probably not, but maybe yes, and I'm going to suggest that you've forgotten bad things happen in this story."

He could tell his priest to leave. The god's representative has to be there for the vote to count.
He can't tell his priest to leave. None of the priests involved in the vote are able to leave.

[Kantaki]

He could tell his priest to leave. The god's representative has to be there for the vote to count.

I'm pretty sure it it worked that way one of the gods in the „yes” fraction would have done so already.

[johnbragg]

So is that a "yes" to "do you think this is a major plot point" then?

It's an "I don't know--it's not out of the question."



I associated "epilogue" with something fixed after the story--in this case, something like a strip saying "millions of people died of the plague," but now I'm thinking that you meant it more like "something that builds on something in this strip." But that seems to make your answer to my question, "Probably not, but maybe yes,...

Sounds about right. And my apologies, I didn't mean "epilogue" so much as "sequel series." Or maybe an epilogue that sums up very quickly how they stop the plague--no that doesn't work.


and I'm going to suggest that you've forgotten bad things happen in this story."

I'm just saying that an impending plague isn't WORSE than other things we've seen happen.

Although I'm really relying on the story working out right and the day getting saved. To paraphrase Belkar, the day didn't get saved when a zillion hobgoblins jumped up and down on Lord Hinjo's head.

Yeah, Rich is more than likely done with OOTS after OOTS is done.

[ORione]

Personally, my intuition is torn between the disease being fixed in one panel (probably by a resurrected Durkon and/or one or more of the high priests), or it never being mentioned again.

[pendell]

What is this „logic” you are talking about? Can you eat it?:smallbiggrin:



Actually... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html)

It's a single shot pistol, not a modern weapon. Although I note that Trinitrotoluene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT) seen in the picture is also a modern artifact; it needs a modern chemical industry to produce it. Even if you whip it up in your bathtub many of the ingredients needed to make it (cotton balls? Dunno, don't want to look it up lest I ping a security filter) are only easily available because we live in a modern world with global shipping. It wouldn't be possible in a medieval world even if you had the exact recipe, I think.

Of course, in OOTS world a wizard probably casts 'create TNT' and that's the end of it :smallamused:

One reason I hate magic as a story telling device; it shortcuts all the necessary world building that would otherwise be required to make the world reasonable.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Unoriginal]

He can't tell his priest to leave. None of the priests involved in the vote are able to leave.

Then he could tell him to give up his title as Vampire Durkon did.

Or just tell the priest to sacrifice his life, since he's already willing to die for his god.

[Kantaki]

It's a single shot pistol, not a modern weapon.

Well, not every setting can have a magic missile (http://rustyandco.com/comic/level-5-26/).:smallbiggrin:

Besides, isn't a single shot pistol still a gun?


Then he could tell him to give up his title as Vampire Durkon did.

Or just tell the priest to sacrifice his life, since he's already willing to die for his god.

I'm pretty sure that would still go against the rules.
If not against the letter then against the intent.
Again, if it were possible some main god would have done so already.

[Bedinsis]

Has Hel enhanced the rate of infection for Sphinx Pox, or enhanced the effects once it starts to manifest?

I ask because she could either be describing what will happen once the Pox truly hits you, or it could be a description of what will happen once it truly hits you now that she has messed around with it.

What makes me question this is that the Order will probably foil her plans, and once that happens she has no reason to continue to enhance it, unless she is petty.

[pendell]

Well, not every setting can have a magic missile (http://rustyandco.com/comic/level-5-26/).:smallbiggrin:

Besides, isn't a single shot pistol still a gun?



I'm pretty sure that would still go against the rules.
If not against the letter then against the intent.
Again, if it were possible some main god would have done so already.

Technically, yes. I was thinking of modern pistols, rifles and artillery such as the Springfield or the AR-15. Single shot muzzleloaders have been in D&D settings since first edition, IIRC, where the arquebus was on the table of arms and equipment.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

Then he could tell him to give up his title as Vampire Durkon did.

Or just tell the priest to sacrifice his life, since he's already willing to die for his god.
Deja vu for the Godsmoot strips...

I find it unlikely that the "No Backsies" rule has obvious loopholes that haven't been exploited and filled in in previous Godsmoots. It's not like Hel is coming into a meeting of people with entirely compatible and not-self-serving goals and making an unprecedented effort to promote her own gain at the expense of the guileless other gods.

[pendell]

Deja vu for the Godsmoot strips...

I find it unlikely that the "No Backsies" rule has obvious loopholes that haven't been exploited and filled in in previous Godsmoots. It's not like Hel is coming into a meeting of people with entirely compatible and not-self-serving goals and making an unprecedented effort to promote her own gain at the expense of the guileless other gods.

Yah. If there's one complaint I have about this entire story line, it's that the entire pantheon and their assorted priesthoods have been handed the collective idiot ball so that the OOTS, and the OOTS alone, can save the world from destruction at the hands of Hel. Really, this should be resolved at a deity level already without the need for human intervention. They ARE entities with extremely high int and wis plus thousands of years of experience , both of mortals and of each other.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[johnbragg]

Yah. If there's one complaint I have about this entire story line, it's that the entire pantheon and their assorted priesthoods have been handed the collective idiot ball so that the OOTS, and the OOTS alone, can save the world from destruction at the hands of Hel. Really, this should be resolved at a deity level already without the need for human intervention. They ARE entities with extremely high int and wis plus thousands of years of experience , both of mortals and of each other.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

It's not just idiot ball. They're deadlocked. The gods all have their own agendas and priorities and grudges, which have a wider scope than the world in question. It was laid out in-comic what fairly plausible reasons most of the gods who voted to end the world did so.

The rules of the gods' games are more important than the fate of this one, and to the gods temporary, world.

[Kantaki]

Yah. If there's one complaint I have about this entire story line, it's that the entire pantheon and their assorted priesthoods have been handed the collective idiot ball so that the OOTS, and the OOTS alone, can save the world from destruction at the hands of Hel. Really, this should be resolved at a deity level already without the need for human intervention. They ARE entities with extremely high int and wis plus thousands of years of experience , both of mortals and of each other.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

High wisdom and intelligence.:smallconfused:
High wisdom and intelligence.:smallconfused:
High wisdom and intelligence.:smallconfused:

Have you seen how these guys act when they aren't trying to look good in front of their followers?:smallsigh:
Your average day-care has more „wisdom and intelligence” than the whole Northern Pantheon.:smallyuk:

Wether you are joking or serious, that set-up was too good.:smalltongue:

[Kish]

To be clear, my position is: the "No Backsies" rule must include "you can't act to deliberately nullify your vote," or there would be no point to having such a rule at all. "Why doesn't X god null their vote?" is addressed by Hel mentioning the "No Backsies" rule, whatever the method proposed for nulling their vote.

[Peelee]

Then he could tell him to give up his title as Vampire Durkon did.

Or just tell the priest to sacrifice his life, since he's already willing to die for his god.

The vampire had another cleric present to take the mantle of High Priest, so there was still a High Priest present. We have no way of knowing if abdication is allowed without another present able to take on the responsibility, and in the absence of evidence that it is allowed, coupled with the fact that no High Priest has been ordered to do this, we can safely assume that they can't do this.

As for the suicide, that's a novel idea. I wonder if the Giant ever had words on his thoughts about a character in his comic committing suicide to solve a problem. On an unrelated note, I dislike blue text.

[Giggling Ghast]

They have airships and sewer systems and Teevos and police departments (See: Cliffport PD), something that didn't appear in the real world until the Nineteenth century (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Police_Act_1829). Also women's rights.

OOTS is a modern world with a fantasy gloss, not a medieval world. About the only way it is different from a modern world is that they don't have guns or artillery.

They do actually have guns, they're just not widely-used. The dwarf assassin who tried to kill the King of Nowhere had a pistol. Roy broke it.

I think it's more accurate to say OOTS is an Anacronism Stew (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnachronismStew) and that most of its elements are there just for fun.

[Shining Wrath]

The OotS world contains precisely those elements needed for Rich Burlew to tell his story and / or make a joke, at precisely the moments they are necessary, and anyone looking for some sort of logical consistency in technological progress should go play Civilization V or something of that sort.

[Unoriginal]

I'm pretty sure that would still go against the rules.
If not against the letter then against the intent.
Again, if it were possible some main god would have done so already.

The vampire did it, and rule-lawyering is not a thing the priests have been particularly shy of doing.

As for "they would have done it", well, maybe some are waiting.

[Psyren]

He could tell his priest to leave. The god's representative has to be there for the vote to count.

Apparently that's not an option. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html)


Then he could tell him to give up his title as Vampire Durkon did.

Or just tell the priest to sacrifice his life, since he's already willing to die for his god.

"Greg" only did that once there was a replacement, therefore the number of votes stayed constant.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yah. If there's one complaint I have about this entire story line, it's that the entire pantheon and their assorted priesthoods have been handed the collective idiot ball

No, they haven't. Half of them have reasons - some good, some bad - to want the world destroyed. Their solution to the problem that doesn't create a second snarl is to destroy the world.

Like "deus ex machina", the whole "so-and-so got the idiot ball" is both overused and plain old badly used in this kind of discussions. It comes down to an arrogant "if I was writing the story, I wouldn't have done it this way", which is hard to take seriously from people who have not, in fact, written the story.

Grey Wolf

[Unoriginal]

As for the suicide, that's a novel idea. I wonder if the Giant ever had words on his thoughts about a character in his comic committing suicide to solve a problem. On an unrelated note, I dislike blue text.

O-Chul attacking Xykon to give time for the raven transporting the lich's phylactery.

Thane staying behind when Redcloak showed up.

[Kish]

As for "they would have done it", well, maybe some are waiting.
Clarify, please? Does "maybe some are waiting" equal "maybe the Order's rush to stop Greg will be ultimately irrelevant because the High Priest of Heimdall can stop Hel's scheme at any time"?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

O-Chul attacking Xykon to give time for the raven transporting the lich's phylactery.

Thane staying behind when Redcloak showed up.

There is a massive difference between going to battle against impossible odds and and suicide.

GW

[Unoriginal]

Clarify, please? Does "maybe some are waiting" equal "maybe the Order's rush to stop Greg will be ultimately irrelevant because the High Priest of Heimdall can stop Hel's scheme at any time"?

Define irrelevant. I'm sure that the priest would rather not do it, not to mention that at least one priest expressed that even with Hel's plan being revealed, he'd have to help her High Priest because his deity voted for the destruction of the world, so it's not something I'd say is likely to happen.

That being said, if a god who wanted the world to survive after all told his priest "there is no time, the adventurers have failed, but if you die now we can still make it", I don't really see how it could be ignored.

Though it would create another tie.

[Kish]

It wouldn't create a tie. There are 9 gods voting "yes" and 9 gods voting "no." If the number voting "yes" goes to 8, the gods voting "no" win outright.

I also wonder what exactly you think Thanh or O-Chul could have done in the circumstances you're asserting that what they did do was functionally identical to suicide. It's not like Redcloak/Xykon wouldn't have chased them down had they forgotten all about causes or helping anyone else and run like frightened rabbits.

[Throknor]

Does anyone seriously think this strip introduces either 1) a major plot point, or 2) an excuse for Rich to, in Gurm fashion, go "haw haw everything is awful blood death pain"? Not "hypothetically speaking, assuming X qualities of the disease and Y aspects of the number of clerics in any major metropolitan area," but in the actual comic?

I'm taking it seriously, because I remember the Domain Agreement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html). As the vampire's ability to mind-control isn't derived from other gods Hel is now free to break the agreement first. "If Thor declared this storm beyond the range of clerical magic, then Hel would do the same for, say, bubonic plague. Or smallpox." Or, maybe, Sphinx Pox.

She is rushing the destruction to get all of the dishonored dead before the other gods can figure out a way to prevent that while still destroying the planet. I see no reason she wouldn't go for a scorched earth policy, especially since her own vampires would be immune and could still destroy the last gate for her. Even if she doesn't get all of the souls she wants to boost her power she will still get a lot of them and the balance of power in the new world would be more in her favor regardless of her not being Empress-by-default.

[Unoriginal]

There is a massive difference between going to battle against impossible odds and and suicide.

GW

If you're prepared to lay down your life for your cause, there is little difference in who is holding the blade.



No, they haven't. Half of them have reasons - some good, some bad - to want the world destroyed. Their solution to the problem that doesn't create a second snarl is to destroy the world.

Like "deus ex machina", the whole "so-and-so got the idiot ball" is both overused and plain old badly used in this kind of discussions. It comes down to an arrogant "if I was writing the story, I wouldn't have done it this way", which is hard to take seriously from people who have not, in fact, written the story.

Grey Wolf

I don't want to sound arrogant, but several characters in-story recognize how much the rules of the Godsmoot are idiotic, even among those who follow them regardless.

Also, Hel's plan now rely on vampires mind-controlling the Dwarven Council to turn the vote in Hel's favor, which is a blatant fraud that pretty much all gods should be able to see through, so it implies that Davlin sworn to respect the Council's wishes even when the Council is being mind-controlled by an outside force. So yes, it relies on a pretty dumb decision.


It wouldn't create a tie. There are 9 gods voting "yes" and 9 gods voting "no." If the number voting "yes" goes to 8, the gods voting "no" win outright.

Not if Hel succeed in MCing the Council. In which case, it's be one more vote for "yes".

[Kish]

The Council influences a demigod; his vote only matters if the true gods are tied.

[Matt620]

While it is fun to see Hel acting like a hysterical baby, I would imagine that Potions of Cure Disease exist in this world.

[hroþila]

Also, Hel's plan now rely on vampires mind-controlling the Dwarven Council to turn the vote in Hel's favor, which is a blatant fraud that pretty much all gods should be able to see through
It's not a blatant fraud because the Dwarven Council is not part of the Godsmoot and is not subject to its rules. The other gods are free to intervene, it just so happens they won't be able to mobilize their non-high-priest clerics in time, and direct divine intervention is right out as per their usual, non-Godsmoot rules.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If you're prepared to lay down your life for your cause, there is little difference in who is holding the blade.
False. But that's way too close to morally justified as a topic that I'm not even going to touch it with a ten foot pole. Suffice to say that your assertion is NOT universally true, and therefore you cannot simply declare it to be so.


I don't want to sound arrogant, but several characters in-story recognize how much the rules of the Godsmoot are idiotic, even among those who follow them regardless.
Most rules are idiotic when you find the edge cases they weren't meant to support. However, they are usually still better than the alternative - and that is definitely the case here, where the alternative is another Snarl.


Also, Hel's plan now rely on vampires mind-controlling the Dwarven Council to turn the vote in Hel's favor, which is a blatant fraud that pretty much all gods should be able to see through, so it implies that Davlin sworn to respect the Council's wishes even when the Council is being mind-controlled by an outside force. So yes, it relies on a pretty dumb decision.
You have absolutely no evidence that "all gods should be able to see through" Hel's plan to mind control a bunch of dwarves none of them know or care about.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

I define "irrelevant, or close enough" as "the Order's scramble to stop Greg didn't save the lives of most of the people in the world and save the dwarves from being enslaved by Hel, but it might have made the difference in the High Priest of Heimdall having to step down."

Not that it's not awesome that Haley retrieved that kid's bottlecap collection from the exploding inn, but I'm just as glad Rich didn't write an entire story arc around her doing so, you know?

If Hel throws out obeying the Domain Agreement to render Sphinx Pox uncurable, Loki can just smite all her vampires with a fire nothing can quench.

Also, this line of argument hinges on it being five weeks until the Order faces the vampires and yet Hel's scheme not succeeding in the meantime.

Still, I find treating the joke as a serious plot point infinitely preferable to treating it as an excuse for random off-panel grimdarkness, so points for that.

[dtilque]

As for Thrym changing his vote, he can't do that. But if he wanted to, he could order his priest to leave the room. That would make him lose his vote, thus breaking the tie in favor of not destroying the world. Since that would solve the Order's problems, that will of course not happen.

There's a magical barrier around the Godsmoot that prevents participants from leaving.



OOTS is a modern world with a fantasy gloss, not a medieval world.

Agreed. This strip is medieval in the same sense that the Flintstones are stone-age. I.e. not at all.


BTW, there was a sphinx in one of the bonus strips in BRitF. Not that he's likely to have been the source of the infection.

[The Pilgrim]

I think this is the first time in my life that I visit the site only to find two new (to me) comic updates!

[JumboWheat01]

I think this is the first time in my life that I visit the site only to find two new (to me) comic updates!

The Giant does seem to be in quite the work-a-holic mood right now. Hope it doesn't burn him out.

[Porthos]

So here I sit thinking that most of the discussion would be laughing at/commenting on Hel acting like a stereotypical petulant teenager in the last panel.

(Well done on that score, BTW :smallamused:)

Instead I see a bunch of comments from people freaking out about how They're All Gonna Diiiiiiiie.

...

...

Never change, Playground. Never change. :smallwink:

[White Magic]

Most people who get chicken pox do not encounter chickens.

Hel said, "The halfling's cat contracted deadly Sphinx Pox back in the desert". Is there a panel showing Mr. Scruffy encountering a disease source in the desert, chicken, sphinx or otherwise?:smallconfused:

[Ironsmith]

Hey, guys... Thrym's giants are kind of screwed over, here.

I mean, think about it...

-The Order is infected with Sphinx pox
-One of the giants (remember her?) had prolonged contact with the airship they were all travelling on.
-By her own admission, our furkini-clad friend would likely survive the fall from the airship, if badly wounded. Her first action upon landing would probably be to try to get back on, and when that fails, to go find the rest of her tribe.
-Acting as a carrier, the giantess would expose the frost giants to Sphinx pox. Normally, this is not a problem in the Dungeons&Dragons world...
-...Had all of their clerics not been systematically murdered by a androgynous wizard, a flying rogue, and a shoeless god of war.

Those giants are done for in a few weeks.

[Peelee]

If you're prepared to lay down your life for your cause, there is little difference in who is holding the blade.

You and I clearly differ on this opinion. And I suspect the author does as well. In fact, I'll wager however much golf you want that none of the high priests will commit suicide to swing the vote.

[ChillerInstinct]

Does anyone seriously think this strip introduces either 1) a major plot point, or 2) an excuse for Rich to, in Gurm fashion, go "haw haw everything is awful blood death pain"? Not "hypothetically speaking, assuming X qualities of the disease and Y aspects of the number of clerics in any major metropolitan area," but in the actual comic?

Of course not. But what can I say, Fridge Horror is fun.

[hamishspence]

Hel said, "The halfling's cat contracted deadly Sphinx Pox back in the desert". Is there a panel showing Mr. Scruffy encountering a disease source in the desert, chicken, sphinx or otherwise?:smallconfused:

The mummies maybe, in Girard's base. That base is in the desert at least. Malack may also qualify, being a cleric of Nergal - a god of death and disease.

[ChillerInstinct]

The mummies maybe, in Girard's base. That base is in the desert at least. Malack may also qualify, being a cleric of Nergal - a god of death and disease.

Plus, Scuffy DID bite (and claw) Malack. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html) That could be the point of contamination (presumably the bite). Belkar could catch it from, say, Scruffy's saliva from licking him, and all it would take is Belkar touching a door handle to spread it to the crew.

Why yes, I'm overthinking this.

[Jasdoif]

Clarify, please? Does "maybe some are waiting" equal "maybe the Order's rush to stop Greg will be ultimately irrelevant because the High Priest of Heimdall can stop Hel's scheme at any time"?Hmm...this is kind of a non-sequitur, but your wording just caused a realization: If there is some route by which Heimdall had his "yes" vote nullifed, why couldn't a "no" god (let's say Freyr) do the exact same thing afterwards? I mean, at that point it's obvious there's a loophole, what exactly that loophole is, and that Heimdall clearly can't be trusted to uphold the rules when he finds them inconvenient.

...which I suspect the main reason why it won't happen: the whole point of the Godsmoots and their rules are to prevent the kind of free-for-all that led to the Snarl in the first place. A deity violating that is inviting personal annihilation, a thought I suspect is horrifyingly unnatural to the typically immortal.


Not that it's not awesome that Haley retrieved that kid's bottlecap collection from the exploding inn, but I'm just as glad Rich didn't write an entire story arc around her doing so, you know?That was Vaarsuvius, actually (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html).


Hey, guys... Thrym's giants are kind of screwed over, here.

I mean, think about it...

-The Order is infected with Sphinx pox
-One of the giants (remember her?) had prolonged contact with the airship they were all travelling on.
-By her own admission, our furkini-clad friend would likely survive the fall from the airship, if badly wounded. Her first action upon landing would probably be to try to get back on, and when that fails, to go find the rest of her tribe.
-Acting as a carrier, the giantess would expose the frost giants to Sphinx pox. Normally, this is not a problem in the Dungeons&Dragons world...
-...Had all of their clerics not been systematically murdered by a androgynous wizard, a flying rogue, and a shoeless god of war.

Those giants are done for in a few weeks.Nah. It's just a Fortitude save to avoid getting infected in the first place, with as few chances as she had to roll a natural 1 on the saving throw she should be fine.

[Unoriginal]

It's not a blatant fraud because the Dwarven Council is not part of the Godsmoot and is not subject to its rules. The other gods are free to intervene, it just so happens they won't be able to mobilize their non-high-priest clerics in time, and direct divine intervention is right out as per their usual, non-Godsmoot rules.

It's blatant fraud for the vote that King Davlin called them to do. Unless the Council has no rule about mind-controlling the members to make them vote what you want, but that'd be a pretty big oversight in a world where you can buy mind-control methods if you have enough money.




You have absolutely no evidence that "all gods should be able to see through" Hel's plan to mind control a bunch of dwarves none of them know or care about.


That's blatantly false. First, all the gods that were at the Nothern Godsmoot know about King Dvalin saying he'll vote what the Council tell him to vote. Second, several of the gods care about what the Council will do because of it. Third, while not all of gods might be able to see what Hel's plan is, this is not what I said. I said that all the gods, or at least all the gods who are linked to the Dwarves, should see that the Council's members are being mind-controlled, and so that the vote is being manipulated. It's not exactly a subtle programming, and we've seen that the gods can perceive what happens to their charges, when they actually pay attention.

Even if Dvalin does not have that power because he's too minor a deity to even reach that stage, the vampires succeeding would still rely on him not using other means to make sure the Council's people are not being influenced.


You and I clearly differ on this opinion. And I suspect the author does as well. In fact, I'll wager however much golf you want that none of the high priests will commit suicide to swing the vote.

Oh, you're almost certainly right.

[Ironsmith]

Nah. It's just a Fortitude save to avoid getting infected in the first place, with as few chances as she had to roll a natural 1 on the saving throw she should be fine.

It wouldn't be the first time that probability has snuck into a back alley to service drama (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html). Plus, it'd make a certain sort of sense for Thrym to get kicked again, by Hel, due to her attempts at getting at the Order.

[Jasdoif]

It wouldn't be the first time that probability has snuck into a back alley to service drama (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html).There's a dearth of drama in your scenario, though.

[Unoriginal]

The "they save the world and then die of a random disease" speculations makes me think of the ending of "The Princess Bride".

The book, not the movie.

[Shining Wrath]

Hey, guys... Thrym's giants are kind of screwed over, here.

I mean, think about it...

-The Order is infected with Sphinx pox
-One of the giants (remember her?) had prolonged contact with the airship they were all travelling on.
-By her own admission, our furkini-clad friend would likely survive the fall from the airship, if badly wounded. Her first action upon landing would probably be to try to get back on, and when that fails, to go find the rest of her tribe.
-Acting as a carrier, the giantess would expose the frost giants to Sphinx pox. Normally, this is not a problem in the Dungeons&Dragons world...
-...Had all of their clerics not been systematically murdered by a androgynous wizard, a flying rogue, and a shoeless god of war.

Those giants are done for in a few weeks.

Assuming Sphinx Pox affects giants, not just felines and humanoids. But yes, Thrym is going to wind up with a reduced number of worshipers. Which will make Hel treat him with even greater contempt.

I wonder how his clerics reacted upon reaching the afterlife for Frost Giants if, having done so, they learned the reason Thrym sent them to their deaths?


Plus, Scuffy DID bite (and claw) Malack. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html) That could be the point of contamination (presumably the bite). Belkar could catch it from, say, Scruffy's saliva from licking him, and all it would take is Belkar touching a door handle to spread it to the crew.

Why yes, I'm overthinking this.

I don't think I've ever seen Belkar lick Scruffy. :smallbiggrin: Other than that, this makes sense. Plus we've seen Belkar in the kitchen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html).

More to the point, Hel said that Scruffy contracted the disease in the desert (implies without her help), but that due to her unholy power, every man and woman on the ship is now infected. Sphinx Pox may not be that easy to spread, unless Hel takes a personal interest in spreading it.

[Hamste]

I just kind of thought she would animate the fallen dead giants and use those. Though I guess if she could do that the cleric thing wouldn't have been a problem (maybe if the god of giants let her, she could do that?). I wonder if she could find a faster acting disease to spread by the time the heroes get there?

[hroþila]

It's blatant fraud for the vote that King Davlin called them to do. Unless the Council has no rule about mind-controlling the members to make them vote what you want, but that'd be a pretty big oversight in a world where you can buy mind-control methods if you have enough money.
Well yes, of course it's blatant fraud as far as the dwarven council is concerned. My point is that it's not fraud as far as the Godsmoot is concerned, and therefore that the other gods can't take action against Hel. If they want to stop her, they'll have to use their own clerics.

[georgie_leech]

To put it in :elan: terms, I feel like way too many people are reading the last panel as a "Dun dun DUNNNNNN" instead of a "Ha Ha Ha."

[The_Weirdo]

Next strip: the first panel is Bandana going: "So, everyone took their Cure Disease potion?" and Elan going "Yes, my group, too, we can't have the flu while fighting Greg".

[Porthos]

To put it in :elan: terms, I feel like way too many people are reading the last panel as a "Dun dun DUNNNNNN" instead of a "Ha Ha Ha."

Exactly. With a side dose of showing insight into Hel's characterization.

Mind, I DO suspect we'll get a throwaway panel or five dealing with this at some point. Hell (pun slightly intended), we might even see Thrym contact his priests on the downlow to get the word out about this as a bit of proxy (pun less intended) revenge against Hel as a minor subplot.

But I seriously doubt it'll be THAT much more than that.

[The_Weirdo]

Hey, guys... Thrym's giants are kind of screwed over, here.

I mean, think about it...

-The Order is infected with Sphinx pox
-One of the giants (remember her?) had prolonged contact with the airship they were all travelling on.
-By her own admission, our furkini-clad friend would likely survive the fall from the airship, if badly wounded. Her first action upon landing would probably be to try to get back on, and when that fails, to go find the rest of her tribe.
-Acting as a carrier, the giantess would expose the frost giants to Sphinx pox. Normally, this is not a problem in the Dungeons&Dragons world...
-...Had all of their clerics not been systematically murdered by a androgynous wizard, a flying rogue, and a shoeless god of war.

Those giants are done for in a few weeks.

Well, if they didn't want to die one by one from a horrible disease that begins with aphasia and ends with a brain bleed, they shouldn't have attacked the ship. :smallsmile:

[2.5 cats]

Hel said, "The halfling's cat contracted deadly Sphinx Pox back in the desert". Is there a panel showing Mr. Scruffy encountering a disease source in the desert, chicken, sphinx or otherwise?

It could be something as simple as a minor bug bite or drinking from the wrong place--same way a huge number of real-world diseases are spread.

One thought about the disease--Hel talked about her unholy power spreading the disease. It's quite possible that normally the disease is a lot less deadly and/or contagious. (It's also possible that you're normally not contagious until after the 5-week incubation.) Point being, barring a remove disease spell, everyone on the ship may well be in deep trouble. But the world itself may not face much danger. After all, why has this disease not already wiped out civilizations?

[Kantaki]

After all, why has this disease not already wiped out civilizations?

A wizard cleric did it.:smalltongue:
:durkon:Cure Disease.

[ORione]

You and I clearly differ on this opinion. And I suspect the author does as well. In fact, I'll wager however much golf you want that none of the high priests will commit suicide to swing the vote.

You're right (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19778430&postcount=26).

While I'm at it, here's another Giant quote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19775201&postcount=19) from that thread that we should keep in mind:


The fate of the world is not going to be decided by unnamed NPCs accidentally triggering legalistic loopholes. This isn't that kind of absurdist story.

Although I suppose he didn't say anything about unnamed NPCs purposefully triggering legalistic loopholes...

[The_Weirdo]

After all, why has this disease not already wiped out civilizations?

The remoteness of the place might be one of the reasons...

[Ironsmith]

It could be something as simple as a minor bug bite or drinking from the wrong place--same way a huge number of real-world diseases are spread.

He picked it up from an infected gladiator. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html) :smalltongue:

[Kantaki]

The remoteness of the place might be one of the reasons...

Plus with the... unstable situation on the Western Continent would anyone notice if it happened.
And if they found out, would they care enough to document it?

[The_Weirdo]

Plus with the... unstable situation on the Western Continent would anyone notice if it happened.
And if they found out, would they care enough to document it?

Well, the army of the EoB is likely infected now. So, good! :smallbiggrin:

[Ironsmith]

Well, the army of the EoB is likely infected now. So, good! :smallbiggrin:

Actually, given the location, the size of the army, and how much of an anticlimax it'd be for them all to drop dead of brain hemorrhages, they've likely been immunized somehow, probably via Tarquin's orders and/or the work of a certain cleric who serves a god of death and disease...

...who is dead now. Right.

Yup, they're gonna die.

[pendell]

Actually, given the location, the size of the army, and how much of an anticlimax it'd be for them all to drop dead of brain hemorrhages, they've likely been immunized somehow, probably via Tarquin's orders and/or the work of a certain cleric who serves a god of death and disease...

...who is dead now. Right.

Yup, they're gonna die.

If sphinx pox is a known disease on the western continent, probably all major powers have some method of dealing with outbreaks at least among their nobility and army.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The_Weirdo]

Actually, given the location, the size of the army, and how much of an anticlimax it'd be for them all to drop dead of brain hemorrhages, they've likely been immunized somehow, probably via Tarquin's orders and/or the work of a certain cleric who serves a god of death and disease...

...who is dead now. Right.

Yup, they're gonna die.

Oh, they already played their role in the story and are now expendable. It bodes ill for them and might mean that the Revolution will come in five weeks without anyone able to prevent the masses from revolting and slaying each and every last one of their oppressors.

A man can dream. :smalltongue:

[hroþila]

I think Hel vastly overestimates the lethality of her ridiculous gag disease. You may argue that, as the goddess of disease, she would know, but she didn't know about the incubation time so there.

[The_Weirdo]

If sphinx pox is a known disease on the western continent, probably all major powers have some method of dealing with outbreaks at least among their nobility and army.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Let me DREAM, will ya? It could not *be* known, or not anymore, as empires rise and fall. :smalltongue:

[The_Weirdo]

I think Hel vastly overestimates the lethality of her ridiculous gag disease. You may argue that, as the goddess of disease, she would know, but she didn't know about the incubation time so there.

Knowing and remembering are two different things... Plus it was likely the only disease available. She might have been essentially grasping at straws...

[Cirin]

Well in RC's case, he can cast "Cure Disease" on himself. Plus, I wouldn't doubt it if he wore a magic item that makes him immune to disease. After all, he hangs out with undead things on a regular basis. Who knows what kind of diseases he's already been exposed too.

Start of Darkness established that one of the powers of the Crimson Mantle as an artifact is that it makes the wearer immune to all diseases including magic ones (even Epic Spell level magic).

[renovator]

Who are the little dwarves with Rocks ???

[The_Weirdo]

Who are the little dwarves with Rocks ???

Hel's slaves. They carry rocks around because Hel had run out of nametags with "Hello, my name is _________ and I am a slave".

[Kish]

Let me DREAM, will ya? It could not *be* known, or not anymore, as empires rise and fall. :smalltongue:
I'd be happy to let you dream of the fall of the Vector Legion, if you dreamed of it happening in a way with a little less collateral damage.

[The_Weirdo]

I'd be happy to let you dream of the fall of the Vector Legion, if you dreamed of it happening in a way with a little less collateral damage.

They're soldiers of an oppressive government. They aren't collateral, they are directly involved, serving a Lawful Evil ruler and oppressing people, all of that actively.

[Kish]

...no dude. If your dream has a plague breaking out and the Vector Legion being unable to stop it, "they" are everyone who lives in the area, from small children to members of Amun-Zora's resistance.

[JoeyTheNeko]

I get the feeling curing the disease may be the joke of a single panel and nothing more. we will just have to see.

[The_Weirdo]

...no dude. If your dream has a plague breaking out and the Vector Legion being unable to stop it, "they" are everyone who lives in the area, from small children to members of Amun-Zora's resistance.

Hm, right.

Yeah, THAT would be a problem.

Incidentally, is the name "Vector Legion" from any specific book or did I miss it from the comics?

[The_Weirdo]

I get the feeling curing the disease may be the joke of a single panel and nothing more. we will just have to see.

Maybe the treatment of the disease is being on a ship that's undergoing a mutiny and the Andi fans can finally rejoice.

[LunarDrop]

Most people who get chicken pox do not encounter chickens.


Rich I love you

[Jasdoif]

Incidentally, is the name "Vector Legion" from any specific book or did I miss it from the comics?"TWITTER CANON!" (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435651746556149760)


Maybe the treatment of the disease is being in a ship that's undergoing a mutiny and the Andi fans can finally rejoice.Less likely than Andi being genetically predisposed to an accelerated incubation period, and the mutiny resulting from the disease's Wisdom damage rather than Andi's normal personality; thereby tipping Bandana off that there's a disease needing to be treated and preventing the Poxdemic.

Which isn't at all likely either, mind you :smalltongue:

[Manty5]

I was scanning for links as I skimmed the forum, so I don't think anyone showed this to the guy who was asking about the purple bodyguards:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html

Definitely Hel's bodyguards. Is there such a thing as plague giants?

[The_Weirdo]

"TWITTER CANON!" (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435651746556149760)

Less likely than Andi being genetically predisposed to an accelerated incubation period, and the mutiny resulting from the disease's Wisdom damage rather than Andi's normal personality; thereby tipping Bandana off that there's a disease needing to be treated and preventing the Poxdemic.

Which isn't at all likely either, mind you :smalltongue:

WHEEE TWITTER CANON!

Well, A MAN CAN... No, wait, neither of those would be my dream, I hate Andi. :smallbiggrin:

[Mandor]

I'd be happy to let you dream of the fall of the Vector Legion, if you dreamed of it happening in a way with a little less collateral damage.

But remember,

"You can't make an omelette without ruthlessly crushing dozens of eggs beneath your steel boot and then publicly disemboweling the chickens that laid them as a warning to others."
--Tarquin

[Unoriginal]

...no dude. If your dream has a plague breaking out and the Vector Legion being unable to stop it, "they" are everyone who lives in the area, from small children to members of Amun-Zora's resistance.

Not to mention that the Vector Legion can afford to leave the continent and avoid the plague on time, while all those people most likely couldn't.

[Mandor]

Maybe the MitD is a Sphinx!!

(joke, i know there's SEVERAL threads dedicated to that, and I don't expect any true giveaways before the ultimate reveal.)

[Goblin_Priest]

Most people who get chicken pox do not encounter chickens.

:biggrin:

Rapid updates plus bonus forum jokes! Loving it.

[Prof. Maple]

But yes, if Redcloak is disease-immune, that solves the problem from Gobbotopia's POV.

He is. His cloak protects him from diseases.

[Keltest]

Well yes, of course it's blatant fraud as far as the dwarven council is concerned. My point is that it's not fraud as far as the Godsmoot is concerned, and therefore that the other gods can't take action against Hel. If they want to stop her, they'll have to use their own clerics.

Unless Dvalin is a bigger idiot than Thor and Odin combined, I think it would strain credulity to its breaking point for him to knowingly vote against his people's wishes simply because somebody enchanted them to say something else. He may be the demigod of lawful-stupidity, but he isn't the demigod of lawful-obliviousness too, unless I missed something.

[Jay R]

Most people who get chicken pox do not encounter chickens.

I love a clear, concise, definitive argument.

[goodpeople25]

Unless Dvalin is a bigger idiot than Thor and Odin combined, I think it would strain credulity to its breaking point for him to knowingly vote against his people's wishes simply because somebody enchanted them to say something else. He may be the demigod of lawful-stupidity, but he isn't the demigod of lawful-obliviousness too, unless I missed something.
Well he wouldn't necessarily be knowingly voting against his people's wishes. Of course willingly ignoring whatever their wishes would be and instead going with the vote of whoever dominated them (with the distinct possibility of knowing for sure it's ultimately Hel's) is on the same level of stupidity. So not really disagreeing om that point I just think the issue of Dvalin is a bit coloured by the circumstances and how it could possibly go. So decided to draw attention to that. Also the compulsory bit of the possibility of Dvalin not being aware at the time of voting for various reasons.

[Porthos]

Unless Dvalin is a bigger idiot than Thor and Odin combined, I think it would strain credulity to its breaking point for him to knowingly vote against his people's wishes simply because somebody enchanted them to say something else. He may be the demigod of lawful-stupidity, but he isn't the demigod of lawful-obliviousness too, unless I missed something.

This posits that Durkula's plot could fail regardless of what Team OotS does. Call me skeptical that this is the case.

As for it being "lawful-oblivious" to ignore blatant vote shenanigans....

...

Yeah. Gonna stay far far FAAAAAAAAAAAR away from any Discussion threads should that come to pass in the comic. Can't imagine why. :smallwink:

Instead I will simply say that Dvalin might be compelled by the letter of the law to recognize a council vote regardless of any shenanigans surrounding it. What being Lawful and all. Kinda already been signposted that he's the type to stick to the letter of the law instead of spirit of the law type deals.

...

Why it's almost like the inherent conflict here is both a source of comedy AND drama. :smallamused:

[Ralanr]

Damn, these comics have been coming in fast.

[The MunchKING]

I see no reason she wouldn't go for a scorched earth policy,

Snarl 2.0?


especially since her own vampires would be immune and could still destroy the last gate for her.

Which would set free the Snarl to kill her. RIGHT AFTER she aggroed all the other Gods on her for being a rulebreaker. NOT the smartest of positions to be in.

[ORione]

Unless Dvalin is a bigger idiot than Thor and Odin combined, I think it would strain credulity to its breaking point for him to knowingly vote against his people's wishes simply because somebody enchanted them to say something else. He may be the demigod of lawful-stupidity, but he isn't the demigod of lawful-obliviousness too, unless I missed something.

"Knowingly" being the key term. Hel and Greg seem to think this will work; how intelligent do you take them to be?

[The MunchKING]

...which I suspect the main reason why it won't happen: the whole point of the Godsmoots and their rules are to prevent the kind of free-for-all that led to the Snarl in the first place. A deity violating that is inviting personal annihilation, a thought I suspect is horrifyingly unnatural to the typically immortal.

I'm pretty sure the Giant said at one point that the Gods couldn't kill each other in any sort of conventional sense. Or at least once they obtained any sort of power. He was talking about the other Gods trying to kill the Dark One right after he ascended, and the idea was they needed a perfect or near perfect unified front to blow him up at that time and once they let him get some power he was basically unkillable.

So I'm guessing the only way to kill the Gods around here will be the Snarl.

EDIT: Here' (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?266118-What-is-the-point-of-redcloak-s-plan/page2&p=14473844#post14473844)s the quote I was thinking of.

[Keltest]

"Knowingly" being the key term. Hel and Greg seem to think this will work; how intelligent do you take them to be?

Not particularly, frankly. I'm of the opinion that this entire scenario only "works" due to authorial fiat, but theres a group of posters who like to jump on and verbally bludgeon anybody who dares express the idea that maybe this particular story arc is anything other than a masterpiece of literature, so ive stopped saying so unless prompted to.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Hermod (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html)thought it was just a protest vote, Thrym didn't think she meant what she said. It seems no one took Hel seriously. I actually started to feel sorry for her...

But then she got giddy about a cat being sick and all my sympathy went out the window.
To reply to this early post: That line about the sphinx pox not loving Hel enough makes me think she has serious issues. It's not too surprising; Loki probably wasn't the best dad, being Loki, and who knows who her mother is.

[Snails]

I think Hel vastly overestimates the lethality of her ridiculous gag disease. You may argue that, as the goddess of disease, she would know, but she didn't know about the incubation time so there.

Well, yes. That. I would imagine part of her job as Goddess of Disease is to dream of killing all living things in agonizing sickness. Just because she fantasizes a thing does not mean it is likely to ever become true.

Part of the point of this side thread, methinks, is to demonstrate that the gods are not inscrutable geniuses, but inscrutable beings whose unfathomable-by-mortals limitations can be approximated by humor and pedestrian stupidity.

Seriously, though, how to depict the gods is an interesting problem for an artist. Simply being superior to human beings with amazing stats like the 1e Deities & Demigods book does not really work. Gods need to be, in some fashion, alien to be plausibly divine IMNSHO. For a webcomic such as this one, The Giant's approach works quite well.

[The_Weirdo]

Not particularly, frankly. I'm of the opinion that this entire scenario only "works" due to authorial fiat, but theres a group of posters who like to jump on and verbally bludgeon anybody who dares express the idea that maybe this particular story arc is anything other than a masterpiece of literature, so ive stopped saying so unless prompted to.

I think the scenario works (more on that in a minute), but I don't think it's a masterpiece of literature (it's good, but it's no Ulysses. Then again, I never read Ulysses, so who the hell am I kidding?) and I don't feel like jumping or verbally bludgeoning you. What do I do?

The reason why I think it works is as follows:

1- The dwarf guy's vow may include abstaining from looking into the minds of people and so on, which would preclude seeing if they are being dominated (or something to that effect), or it might include obeying the dwarf lords *no matter what*, which is Lawful Stupid, but, hey, so is the lesser deity there.

2- Good people can disagree on whether or not safely destroying this iteration of the world is the best solution. Put another way, it's not cut-and-dry, so their position isn't untenable. Even because they might not understand the implications of dying that way or misconstrue it as being "dying fighting against the snarl".

If you really, REALLY want me to jump and verbally bludgeon you, can we schedule a proper date and time? Like, ALL RIGHT! YOU AND ME, OUTSIDE, NEXT THURSDAY AT 4 PM, SÃO PAULO TIME ZONE THAT IS USUALLY GMT-3!

[Snails]

Just because Hel posits Dvalin will act in one precise way does not necessarily mean he will. Based on the reactions observed at the moot, clearly it was entirely plausible to everyone, including Dvalin himself and Dvalin's high priest, that he might ultimately decide to honor a certain interpretation of his vow that was made while still mortal.

Regardless, the fact of his vow is sufficient for him to absolutely refuse to vote until the kings have voted. He may actual intend to vote against the destruction of the world and still feel obliged to say nothing until the kings have voted.

[Keltest]

I think the scenario works (more on that in a minute), but I don't think it's a masterpiece of literature (it's good, but it's no Ulysses. Then again, I never read Ulysses, so who the hell am I kidding?) and I don't feel like jumping or verbally bludgeoning you. What do I do?

The reason why I think it works is as follows:

1- The dwarf guy's vow may include abstaining from looking into the minds of people and so on, which would preclude seeing if they are being dominated (or something to that effect), or it might include obeying the dwarf lords *no matter what*, which is Lawful Stupid, but, hey, so is the lesser deity there.

2- Good people can disagree on whether or not safely destroying this iteration of the world is the best solution. Put another way, it's not cut-and-dry, so their position isn't untenable. Even because they might not understand the implications of dying that way or misconstrue it as being "dying fighting against the snarl".

If you really, REALLY want me to jump and verbally bludgeon you, can we schedule a proper date and time? Like, ALL RIGHT! YOU AND ME, OUTSIDE, NEXT THURSDAY AT 4 PM, SÃO PAULO TIME ZONE THAT IS USUALLY GMT-3!

The biggest thing that bugs me about He's plans is how... complete, for lack of a better word... they are, given how completely last second they are, and it really breaks down once you get to the plan to control the tiebreaker. Ok, 3 days to muster the demigod allies is plausible, if somewhat unlikely. Maybe she's been building these alliances for umpteen years, waiting for an actual priest to be able to attend so she can vote. But then she has a plan to control Dvalin's vote based on these vampires that she has controlled for hours, at most? Especially when he wasn't one of her allies, so she couldn't even be sure he would show up. And she didn't even know she would be able to have those vampires, so the plan was apparently for her to make a wild guess that Dvalin would be the tiebreaker vote AND that a single vampire would be enough to control the entire council.

That's just too many moving parts that she cant control for me to really believe it.

[georgie_leech]

Just because Hel posits Dvalin will act in one precise way does not necessarily mean he will. Based on the reactions observed at the moot, clearly it was entirely plausible to everyone, including Dvalin himself and Dvalin's high priest, that he might ultimately decide to honor a certain interpretation of his vow that was made while still mortal.

Regardless, the fact of his vow is sufficient for him to absolutely refuse to vote until the kings have voted. He may actual intend to vote against the destruction of the world and still feel obliged to say nothing until the kings have voted.

As implied above, the title of the webcomic is "The Order of the Stick," not "The World Isn't Destroyed Without the Input of Protagonists."

[Peelee]

Look, I'm as much a fan as anyone here of ridiculously specific, overly semantic arguments, but it'd be nice to argue about how stupid Dvalin is/isn't for accepting/rejecting the vote of a council of vampires/dominated dwarves once it actually happens.

[goodpeople25]

The biggest thing that bugs me about He's plans is how... complete, for lack of a better word... they are, given how completely last second they are, and it really breaks down once you get to the plan to control the tiebreaker. Ok, 3 days to muster the demigod allies is plausible, if somewhat unlikely. Maybe she's been building these alliances for umpteen years, waiting for an actual priest to be able to attend so she can vote. But then she has a plan to control Dvalin's vote based on these vampires that she has controlled for hours, at most? Especially when he wasn't one of her allies, so she couldn't even be sure he would show up. And she didn't even know she would be able to have those vampires, so the plan was apparently for her to make a wild guess that Dvalin would be the tiebreaker vote AND that a single vampire would be enough to control the entire council.

That's just too many moving parts that she cant control for me to really believe it.
I thought the not knowing about the opportunity for new vampires part was up in the air. Anyway I'd hardly rate Dvalin consistently showing up for Godsmoots unlikely and it seemed implied by the comic. And couldn't that also be that there could be a tie, having the guy who's known for causing a delay going last and thus a possible tiebreaker seems like it could very well be intentional.

[johnbragg]

But then she has a plan to control Dvalin's vote based on these vampires that she has controlled for hours, at most?

WEll, the original plan was for Hermod the Messenger demigod to vote yes.

[Snails]

As implied above, the title of the webcomic is "The Order of the Stick," not "The World Isn't Destroyed Without the Input of Protagonists."

This here...


Look, I'm as much a fan as anyone here of ridiculously specific, overly semantic arguments, but it'd be nice to argue about how stupid Dvalin is/isn't for accepting/rejecting the vote of a council of vampires/dominated dwarves once it actually happens.

We are simply unlikely to find out what Dvalin's precise intentions are, because the webcomic is "The Order of the Stick". So there is no point in anyone getting worked up over how stupid Dvalin is going to be, as Peelee correctly points out.

[The MunchKING]

Ok, 3 days to muster the demigod allies is plausible, if somewhat unlikely. Maybe she's been building these alliances for umpteen years, waiting for an actual priest to be able to attend so she can vote.

My read on that was that she had been courting them for how ever many years so it could definitely work if she got a significantly high level priest, OR so she could get their vote if it happened to turn into a tie some other way (A much more risky plan might involve bushwacking some one else's HP on the way to the Godsmoot so they don't get a vote. Either with Undead or Disease.)


But then she has a plan to control Dvalin's vote based on these vampires that she has controlled for hours, at most?

Well there was always going to be SOMEONE's neutral clerics building the place for the Godsmoot, so the hard part would have been getting them vamped and then up and active at the same time. Which, if we don't assume she can just give Durkon whatever Clerical spells Malack researched for Nergal, then it would depend on her watching Malack closely enough to know he had a staff of Undead Raising Quickly.

Even if she didn't know though, Durkon could have told her. And about the plan to buy a teleport crystal so they could warp to Kraagor's Gate, and THEN she came up with the way to ensure Dvalin's vote.

I mean Belkar does say it's been less than a fortnight since they fought Tarquin, which given that he doesn't say "week" means its probably been 8-13 days since they fought, which would give her a week to throw that whole plan into motion. It's not that crazy that an 18 INT adventurer could have thought of that plan in that time given those resources, much less the (however arbitrarily high a God's stats are in OOTS) INT of Hel.


Especially when he wasn't one of her allies, so she couldn't even be sure he would show up.

Well she did say she had been watching the previous meetings AND had been courting/watching all the demigods on how they would vote. So it probably wasn't as random as all that, and more of a "I had a pretty good idea that he would want to show up, and I need a plan about what to do if he turns out to be important."


And she didn't even know she would be able to have those vampires, so the plan was apparently for her to make a wild guess that Dvalin would be the tiebreaker vote AND that a single vampire would be enough to control the entire council.

That's just too many moving parts that she cant control for me to really believe it.

Most of them work pretty well if you assume she either spied on Malack for some reason, or Durkon told her about the assets he'd taken from Malack and the OotS's plans.

[dps]

The Crimson Mantle grants disease immunity.

That protects Redcoat, but does it help anyone else he comes into contact with? In the real world, you can be immune to a disease but still be a carrier; I'm not sure that applies in DnD or not in general, much less in the OoTS setting.

[Lordchoculla]

True, but "they saved the world and then all died horribly of disease a few weeks later" is still a thing that needs avoiding.

ZNIP


Hmm... you might call this a bitter-sweet ending, I guess...

[ORione]

As implied above, the title of the webcomic is "The Order of the Stick," not "The World Isn't Destroyed Without the Input of Protagonists."

Now that you mention it, I bet that the rules of the Godsmoot and Dvalin's decision-making process will not be as important to the fate of the world as Durkon's character growth. After all:

1. This is his arc, isn't it? Surely he won't be an inert damsel in distress during the part of the plot that's supposed to highlight his character.
2. Greg said that Durkon was of no concern (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html). A villain dismissed a hero as being of no concern. Of course he's going to be proven wrong.

[Slimmy]

In D&D, no cleric can stop an epidemic. Cure disease only cures one person and doesn't prevent the person from falling sick again. There's a limit to how many spells you can cast and if you are dealing with an epidemic, you won't have enough spells.
Unless you have a way to cure everyone with some mass cure disease but you'll need a pretty high radius.

Diseases are rarely dangerous to PCs, since the cleric/druid/favored soul can cure everyone on a single day but if a village is infected with the black plague or something, the only thing a spellcaster can do is minimize the damage probably through a "Quarantine, cure a bunch today, evacuate them so they don't get sick again, repeat."
Diseases are SERIOUS.
Also, am I the only one worried that every single deity that voted "yes", even on the other pantheons, will be a potential danger ? I mean gods like Heimdall or Tyr would be like "Who cares if Hel rules after that ? Better than being dead and Odin is getting senile anyway."
And the deities of the other pantheons would simply not care about a change of leadership amongst the northerners.

[hroþila]

Unless Dvalin is a bigger idiot than Thor and Odin combined, I think it would strain credulity to its breaking point for him to knowingly vote against his people's wishes simply because somebody enchanted them to say something else. He may be the demigod of lawful-stupidity, but he isn't the demigod of lawful-obliviousness too, unless I missed something.
You're assuming lots of stuff that hasn't happened yet, and furthermore, I don't see what this has to do with my post. :smallconfused:

[Jasdoif]

So I'm guessing the only way to kill the Gods around here will be the Snarl.Or like I was trying to say, another Snarl; the gods already don't meet in person across pantheons to avoid creating such a scenario.


But then she has a plan to control Dvalin's vote based on these vampires that she has controlled for hours, at most? Especially when he wasn't one of her allies, so she couldn't even be sure he would show up. And she didn't even know she would be able to have those vampires, so the plan was apparently for her to make a wild guess that Dvalin would be the tiebreaker vote AND that a single vampire would be enough to control the entire council.

That's just too many moving parts that she cant control for me to really believe it.I dunno...She's had days to come up with backup plans that involve a vampire, Dvalin relying on the Council of Clans means his vote is both vulnerable to manipulations against mortals and buys time while said Council assembles, and the prize she's risk with her vampire clerics with is a lot of influence in the next iteration of the world. Even if it is an incredibly long shot, it sounds worthwhile to attempt.

[Adeptus]

Being a goddess of plague must suck in a world where a Cure Disease spell exists.

This is what I though as well. Are there special rules for plagues in 3.5 D&D?

[Thrythlind]

So there is a semi-comedic superhero setting I have where there is a "disease" (more of a contractable enchantment) referred to as the Pandora Pox that gives about 10% of the world's women mythological-based superpowers and most become rather heroic.

Anyway, one of the strains (in fact the primary strain contracted by patient zero, she has a secondary infection of vampirism) is a sphinx strain. Their primary power is that if they make a declarative statement then they immediately scan reality to confirm whether or not it's true, are compelled to say "true" or "false". For easy stuff, this is quick and not that tiring, but for other stuff it can knock them out, especially for stuff that there is no real way to prove or disprove something. Also, deliberately hidden things are harder to find than forgotten or unknown things. Since getting this triggered due to repeated statements like "I want a cheeseburger" IS tiring, they often try to speak in questions and riddles, trying to avoid making direct statements.

They also have an addiction to riddle-games and one of the methods of transmission of the Sphinx Pox is if a human woman gets into a riddle contest with a sphinx pandora and the number of pandoras in the world is currently less than 10% of the human female population so that there are existing "slots" in the enchantment.

[Unoriginal]

I must make clear that I don't consider this arc badly put together or anything of the kind. I'm enjoying it immensely.


But I do think that Hel's plan relies on Dvalin and the Council of Clans to be pretty dumb, because the various mind-control methods in a D&D world are something any government should be careful about, especially during a vote.

[factotum]

But I do think that Hel's plan relies on Dvalin and the Council of Clans to be pretty dumb, because the various mind-control methods in a D&D world are something any government should be careful about, especially during a vote.

Don't forget that Hel's plan originally didn't rely on anything of the kind--she was expecting the vote to go her way when the demigods weighed in, but one of them (I forget which) didn't vote the way he'd said he would and left the current impasse. So, Hel is pretty much making this up as she goes along right now, it's not surprising the planning ain't as stellar as you'd expect.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Being a goddess of plague must suck in a world where a Cure Disease spell exists.
Well, aside from the number of casters that might be available and the spell not granting future immunity, some deities might only allow their clerics to cast cure disease on worthy followers rather than all and sundry, and even those that do might still demand offerings most people couldn't afford.

Plus the reverse of Remove Disease is available at the same level.

[goodpeople25]

I must make clear that I don't consider this arc badly put together or anything of the kind. I'm enjoying it immensely.


But I do think that Hel's plan relies on Dvalin and the Council of Clans to be pretty dumb, because the various mind-control methods in a D&D world are something any government should be careful about, especially during a vote.
The thing is one of the circumstances we do actually know is that the meeting is not the government. So we don't know what their normal role and thus what's the appropriate need for security and for this sort of thing amped up security measures can be in of itself a weakness, alot of security can be gained by people simply not knowing there's anything important going on.

Plus they're not facing magical mind-control they're facing unlimted uses of magical mind-control from a gaggle of Vampire Clerics with boots on the ground. (Well in a matter of speaking) Depending on how direct the vampires can/want to be a lot of security options break down at that point.

[Riftwolf]

Hmmm... Cant tell if this is a throwaway joke or vital plot point...

Maybe it'll tie into that cup Qarr was supposed to be getting...

[Riftwolf]

I must make clear that I don't consider this arc badly put together or anything of the kind. I'm enjoying it immensely.


But I do think that Hel's plan relies on Dvalin and the Council of Clans to be pretty dumb, because the various mind-control methods in a D&D world are something any government should be careful about, especially during a vote.

Rich made a comment about that when that plan was first revealed in the Godsmoot. Its was something along the lines of 'huh, looks like an important detail that'll be dealt with in future strips without being immediately revealed. Weird.'

[KorvinStarmast]

Technically, yes. I was thinking of modern pistols, rifles and artillery such as the Springfield or the AR-15. Single shot muzzleloaders have been in D&D settings since first edition, IIRC, where the arquebus was on the table of arms and equipment. Not in OD&D. Not in AD&D 1e core books + Unearthed ARcana. (Are you thinking of AD&D 2e? I think I recall seeing the muzzle loaders in that edition). Or was there a supplement before 2e that had these as an option? (If it's from a dragon magazine article, I am sure I read more than one of those with muzzle loaders and six guns ...)


-...Had all of their clerics not been systematically murdered by a androgynous wizard, a flying rogue, and a shoeless god of war. That's sexy shoeless god of war to you, mister! :smallfurious: :smallbiggrin:

Malack may also qualify, being a cleric of Nergal - a god of death and disease. Ohh, didn't think of that rather obvious linkage.

To reply to this early post: That line about the sphinx pox not loving Hel enough makes me think she has serious issues. Like most gothy sorts I've ever met. (On the other hand, with Loki as her dad, a bit of empathy is not out of order, per your follow up).
but I don't think it's a masterpiece of literature (it's good, but it's no Ulysses. Then again, I never read Ulysses, so who the hell am I kidding?) I read it, for a college course, and then I put it down. I have never picked it up again. Wrote my paper on something else. I think the book's overrated. Compare with Battle Cry by Leon Uris. Re read it about a dozen times. (My older brother and I used to have a contest about that).
"disease" (more of a contractable enchantment) referred to as the Pandora Pox Nothing overly complicated about that. :smallbiggrin: (I love the name you gave it: Pandora's Pox).