High Elf Rogue requests guidance

[antipodeF]

I am a level 3 High Elf Rogue, 8 STR, 16 DEX, 12 CON, 16 INT, 13 WIS, and 10 CHA. My skills are Acrobatics, Sleight, Investigation, Perception, Deception, and the two I doubled up on were Stealth and Thieves' Tools. I've been acting as the party's canary; I'm the first one into a room, and no one else enters until I tell them it's safe. I should've taken higher WIS if this is how things were going to be, but oh well, too late to think that way.

I'm pretty much dead-set on the Arcane Trickster path - I'd better be, with 16 INT - but now that I'm here, I'm realizing just how many decisions I have to make now and in the level, when I'm eligible to select a feat. So now's as good a time to get some advice in regards to my strategies going forward.

As said, my main duty out of combat is to skulk around in the darkness. Double Stealth proficiency is very handy, and I look for ways to use it every game if possible, but sneaking around in places you aren't supposed to be is, obviously, pretty dangerous. I'm thinking Find Familiar is a big help in that area - send in the bat first, then me next if it seems safe, then the party if it really seems safe - and possibly Disguise Self as well, though that one may require me to use my sub-par Deception bonus... maybe Silent Image would be better?

In combat, I obviously want to get my Sneak Attack as much as possible, but that's proving to be a challenge. The two main melee fighters in the party are using polearms, which means they aren't helping much for Sneak Attack. True Strike seems potentially handy for the frustratingly-common scenario that I have nothing better to do in a round, and the Skulker feat may be useable in dungeons since I already see perfectly in dim light, but I'm wondering if there might be something a little better somewhere?

The big trouble is the Hide action. I feel like it could be very useful, but I can never seem to find a good place to hide. I see all these spells like Fog Cloud and Darkness that provide.... heavy obscuring, meaning I can't see through it either. Is there anything that provides light obscuring that's reliable?

Thanks for listening, and for offering any advice you have, if you offered any.

[Coranhann]

At level 4 : Take magic initiate (Druid) feat, take guidance as a cantrip. You're good to go.

Edit: Regarding your question, go Trickster. Invisibility helps with most of what you are trying to achieve, along with a potential familiar.

[Aett_Thorn]

Just because the main melee fighters are using polearms doesn't mean that they always need to be 10 feet away from enemies. Sure they have that reach, but they shouldn't always be that far away from every enemy. And enemies that don't have reach should be closing to 5' of them on their turns. Make sure that you are targeting those enemies that will provide sneak attack damage. If your melees know what's good for them, they should be providing you with these opportunities, since an extra 2d6 damage each turn can help end fights quicker.

the other option is to use a longbow (since you have proficiency as an Elf). Find cover, pop out and shoot, and then use your bonus action hide to gain cover again.

[Quoxis]

At level 4 : Take magic initiate (Druid) feat, take guidance as a cantrip. You're good to go.

Damn, just a few minutes too late...

[Lombra]

Any place out of the line of sight of enemies can be a place to hide. It's easier to use ranged weapons, but once you get uncanny dodge you can weave in and out of battle and keep hiding for few risks.
Depending on the theme and if multiclass and SCAG are allowed, a dip in bladesinger wizard improves your survivability and spell selection.
For the feats you may want alert, lucky, magic initiate (if you don't want to dip or can't) and skulker can benefit you, mostly if you go the ranged way.
All around playing a rogue is not hard, you just have to keep in mind that you are pretty squishy, and try to use the surrounding ambient to your advantage, both literally and figuratively. Getting a SA every turn is pretty easy if there is at least another frontliner in the party.

[JellyPooga]

Avoid True Strike. It's a trap and a waste of your most valuable resource; your Action. Unfortunately, most of the spells you'll want, you won't be getting until you get access to 2nd level spells; Invisibility[i] and [i]Blur are probably the main contenders for your first 2nd level choice.

[antipodeF]

Forgot to say: I have no real preference between ranged combat or melee so far. I tend to walk around dungeons with an arrow in one hand and a shortsword in the other. If a surprise encounter calls for ranged combat, I drop the sword and draw my bow; if it calls for melee, I drop the arrow and draw my second shortsword. (I imagine I'll want to switch to a Rapier at higher levels though, once my Sneak Attack damage starts vastly outweighing my weapon damage.)

Also, those of you who literally directed me to the cantrip Guidance: you're very clever and I completely did not expect that response.

Everyone else though, thanks for the input. <3

[Specter]

Here's a sample spell selection for you:

Cantrips: Mage Hand, Booming Blade, Minor Illusion
1st-level Spells: Disguise Self, Find Familiar, Tasha's Hideous Laughter

Mage Hand is mandatory and lets you pick traps from a distance, as well as many other shenanigans. Booming Blade will increase your damage by 1d8 at levels 5, 11 and 17, and if you Disengage you can force foes to chase you and take damage. Minor Illusion can create an instant hiding place for you to duck behind and fire away with advantage.

Disguise Self is always good in social situations. Find Familiar can give you reliable advantage and scout in your place. Tasha's is a solid debuff for when you want to isolate an enemy, and after you get Magical Ambush it gets even better.

As for feats, you don't need any right away; boost DEX and you're good to go. If you're bored with DEX, you can take Crossbow Expert, Skulker, Dungeon Delver or Alert and they'll surely be good.

[JellyPooga]

With that 13 in Wis, you might want to consider picking up Resilient (Wis), both to improve that +1 to +2 and to avoid the crippling effects of the likes of Hold Person, which are going to become increasingly common as you hit the mid-game (and Slippery Mind is a long way off; if you think the campaign is going to go that high, then another feat to increase Wis, like Observant, might be an idea).

[PeteNutButter]

Forgot to say: I have no real preference between ranged combat or melee so far. I tend to walk around dungeons with an arrow in one hand and a shortsword in the other. If a surprise encounter calls for ranged combat, I drop the sword and draw my bow; if it calls for melee, I drop the arrow and draw my second shortsword. (I imagine I'll want to switch to a Rapier at higher levels though, once my Sneak Attack damage starts vastly outweighing my weapon damage.)

Also, those of you who literally directed me to the cantrip Guidance: you're very clever and I completely did not expect that response.

Everyone else though, thanks for the input. <3

Don't ditch the TWF strategy. A second shot at sneak attack is very powerful. The other competitive option is Booming Blade. If your team is reach weapons only it could "pop" quite often.

I'm a little confused as to how the reach weapons are preventing you from achieving sneak attack. On the first round of combat, sneak attack might be hard to achieve, but every round thereafter the melee opponents are likely going to close the distance to your allies and become within 5 ft. Unless your companions are taking opportunity attacks to walk away again (or disengaging) they should spend the rest of the fight within 5 feet of your foes.

I'd remind the DM that if they use their polearms to attack foes over your head, the foes will have cover to them (+2 AC).

If you are finding yourself constantly in the thick of battle, you might want to alter your strategy. I don't mean to say you are doing D&D wrong, but make the fighter type take point if stealth isn't a reliable option. No sense in putting your squishy self up close. I'd recommend a ranged weapon. You should scout and search for traps, but once it comes to door kicking, send in the other guys. In a dungeon the easiest way to have cover is to stay in the hallway/previous room and hide behind the doorway. Step out, shoot, go back in, and hide again.

If you want to keep being the first guy in, maybe look at options to boost your survivability. Just one level in fighter nets shield proficiency, a fighting style, and second wind.

[antipodeF]

More clarifying: I go in the rooms first, but then I come back out and we walk in as a group. If we're walking as a group, I am not at the front. The barbarian goes first, then me, then the cleric, then the sorcerer, and the paladin holds the rear. If a fight calls for me to be at range, I can back up pretty easy with my bonus action and such.

Another thing I'm thinking is, I suspect I'm the only person with an INT score over 10. It may be wise to pick up some INT-based skills somehow, either by multiclassing or taking Skilled. We'll be in serious trouble if we need to identify a magic item or recall a historic event and no one can do it. (I consider it bad form to specifically ask for someone's stats down to the exact numbers. Feels like metagame knowledge.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

More clarifying: I go in the rooms first, but then I come back out and we walk in as a group. If we're walking as a group, I am not at the front. The barbarian goes first, then me, then the cleric, then the sorcerer, and the paladin holds the rear. If a fight calls for me to be at range, I can back up pretty easy with my bonus action and such.

Another thing I'm thinking is, I suspect I'm the only person with an INT score over 10. It may be wise to pick up some INT-based skills somehow, either by multiclassing or taking Skilled. We'll be in serious trouble if we need to identify a magic item or recall a historic event and no one can do it. (I consider it bad form to specifically ask for someone's stats down to the exact numbers. Feels like metagame knowledge.)
Meh, Proficiency is only another +2-+4, generally.

As for your specific issues, Find Familiar will save your life. It can't attack, but it can use the Help action-- meaning Advantage on everything, all day long. That should help your Sneak Attacks considerably.

[Herobizkit]

Skulker.

You have Minor Illusion. Generate cover. Hide behind cover. Miss with a ranged attack, stay Hidden.

Enjoy your ranged Sneak Attack damage with Advantage "all day".

[antipodeF]

Find Familiar will save your life. It can't attack, but it can use the Help action-- meaning Advantage on everything, all day long. That should help your Sneak Attacks considerably.

Oooooooh snap!! That.... I didn't even think about that! Oh man, I definitely gotta find an excuse to get back to town ASAP to buy the materials for a Find Familiar when I can!

Thank you so much, Grod. You've just turned a great spell into a game-changing spell. >: ]

Also, thank you to basically everyone for the advice. And also, thank you for not assuming I'm level 10-15 yet. I get that a lot for some reason, even if I explicitly state that I'm not. : P

[Citan]

High Elf Rogue requests guidance
*Citan casts Guidance on the Rogue*.
"Okay, you're good to go, now scram!":smallbiggrin:













Sorry couldn't resist. XD

1. I am a level 3 High Elf Rogue, 8 STR, 16 DEX, 12 CON, 16 INT, 13 WIS, and 10 CHA. My skills are Acrobatics, Sleight, Investigation, Perception, Deception, and the two I doubled up on were Stealth and Thieves' Tools. I've been acting as the party's canary; I'm the first one into a room, and no one else enters until I tell them it's safe. I should've taken higher WIS if this is how things were going to be, but oh well, too late to think that way.

I'm pretty much dead-set on the Arcane Trickster path - I'd better be, with 16 INT - but now that I'm here, I'm realizing just how many decisions I have to make now and in the level, when I'm eligible to select a feat. So now's as good a time to get some advice in regards to my strategies going forward.

2. As said, my main duty out of combat is to skulk around in the darkness. Double Stealth proficiency is very handy, and I look for ways to use it every game if possible, but sneaking around in places you aren't supposed to be is, obviously, pretty dangerous. I'm thinking Find Familiar is a big help in that area - send in the bat first, then me next if it seems safe, then the party if it really seems safe - and possibly Disguise Self as well, though that one may require me to use my sub-par Deception bonus... maybe Silent Image would be better?

3. In combat, I obviously want to get my Sneak Attack as much as possible, but that's proving to be a challenge. The two main melee fighters in the party are using polearms, which means they aren't helping much for Sneak Attack. True Strike seems potentially handy for the frustratingly-common scenario that I have nothing better to do in a round, and the Skulker feat may be useable in dungeons since I already see perfectly in dim light, but I'm wondering if there might be something a little better somewhere?

The big trouble is the Hide action. I feel like it could be very useful, but I can never seem to find a good place to hide. I see all these spells like Fog Cloud and Darkness that provide.... heavy obscuring, meaning I can't see through it either. Is there anything that provides light obscuring that's reliable?

Thanks for listening, and for offering any advice you have, if you offered any.
Ok, so first things first: 1. Congrats on having GREAT stats which open many good multiclass options.

Now to tackle quickly your "problems".

Stealth
You have many ways to enhance your stealthiness, with various degrees of efficiency:
- 0: Minor Illusion (Arcane Trickster, Wizard)
- 1: Fog Cloud (same), Disguise Self (same), Sleep (same), Silent Image (same), Longstrider (same).
- 2: Invisibility (same), Enhance Ability (same), Misty Step (same), Spider Climb (same), Darkness (also some Land Druid, Shadow Monk), Silence (Cleric, some Land Druid, Shadow Monk, ritual), Pass Without Trace (Druid, Trickster Cleric, Shadow Monk, Ranger).
- 3: Water Walk (Druid, ritual), Water Breathing (Druid, Wizard, ritual), Nondetection (Wizard), Haste (Wizard), Fly (Wizard).
- 4: Polymorph, Greater Invisibility (Wizard, some Land Druid).

Basically you either...
- improve your speed to go so fast people have no time to detect you.
- improve your mobility to get through imprevisible (thus less monitored) paths.
- improve your overall discretion.
- improve directly your Stealth skill.

Now for the second...

Sneak Attack
You can...
Either grab advantage yourself: Shoving someone prone (but requires shield and SHield Master or Extra Attack), using Faerie Fire.
Or indeed use a creature you can control to help you get advantage: either Find Familiar (but honestly, very frail, and may be argued that it's not really an enemy by some DMs) or Conjure Animals (either yourself or a pal) or even undead through Create Undead (same).
Depending on DM, you may also sometimes (probably not always) get advantage by using Mage Hand as a bonus action to create a distraction.
Also, once you get 13th, it's an official use of your Mage Hand to provide advantage as a bonus action.

Considering all of this.
1. Stick pure Rogue: grind your teeth, pick a mix of buffs and illusion spells, both concentration and non-concentration. Use and abuse of all rituals you know, maybe grab Ritual Caster: Cleric to get some rituals that can help (Augury, Silence). Use the fact that your Hand is invisible, paired with some Minor Illusion, to create distractions while you are hiding yourself behind any virtual object.
+++: no hampering Rogue progression, so best damage, and quick access to Reliable Talent (great for sneaking).
---: very little spellcasting overall

2. Multiclass Shadow Monk up to 4: you get many good things: better movement, better sneaking (Pass Without Trace, Silence, Darkvision, Darkness, Minor Illusion), better defense (Dodge as bonus action).
+++: short rest big boost to sneaking, defense
---: Flurry of Blows not compatible with Sneak Attack, delays progression significantly.

3. Multiclass Land Druid 3+: you get Faerie Fire (low DC though), Fog Cloud, Pass Without Trace, Enhance Ability, and Silence from the Land domain. Also Guidance and Wild Shape.
+++: arguably the biggest boost to sneaking (Pass Without Trace + Wild Shape, or Water Breathing, etc) and if you get up to 5, you also take care of the Sneak Attack help problem for the biggest fight (Conjure Animals, which can also be used in many different other ways).
---: significant to big delay in Rogue progression depending on how high you go.

4. Multiclass Bladesinger Wizard 2/3/6/7: one of the best synergies here: you get many of aforementioned spells, +defense buff, + concentration buff, + Extra Attack.
+++: most "balanced" multiclass, bringing many offensive (INT spells) and defensive (Bladesinger, Mirror Image, etc) options, along the spells enhancing sneaking.

5. Multiclass Ranger 5: gets medium armor and shield, Archery or Defense, Longstrider, Pass Without Trace, Silence for sneaking, Horde Breaker and Extra Attack to enhance your offense (does not cover the "need advantage problem" though).
+++: decent balance between attack, utility, defense.
---: heavy multiclass, does not resolve all problems, half-caster.

6. Multiclass Eldricht Knight 7: more ASI (more feats), INT-based caster, but the most important is not Extra Attack but True Strike paired with War Magic: now you can unleash a Sneak Attack arrow without any external help.
It's a very heavy price to get this though. IMO not worth it, but opinions may vary.

Or make a mix of several small dips (Bladesinger 2 / Land Druid 3 for example).
Think a bit and let me know if there is any particular option that interests you. ;)

In your place, I'd probably grab just one Wizard level not too late to get more spell options (including the ability to learn additional spells and change prepared ones, if DM is nice enough to provide occasions to do that), immediate spell slots boost, then stick back to Rogue until I really feel there is something missing.
All multiclass options are strong, but being a Rogue is still great overall. And getting level 5 Uncanny Dodge and level 6 Expertise to put into Perception is kinda a priority imo. ;)
As for level 4, if you feel you are hitting reliably enough so far, I'd suggest grabbing Observant feat: +5 passive Perception and Investigation is a great boost, and it will also even your WIS score. Otherwise, boost DEX now and grab it as level 8 feat.

Just because the main melee fighters are using polearms doesn't mean that they always need to be 10 feet away from enemies. Sure they have that reach, but they shouldn't always be that far away from every enemy. And enemies that don't have reach should be closing to 5' of them on their turns. Make sure that you are targeting those enemies that will provide sneak attack damage. If your melees know what's good for them, they should be providing you with these opportunities, since an extra 2d6 damage each turn can help end fights quicker.

the other option is to use a longbow (since you have proficiency as an Elf). Find cover, pop out and shoot, and then use your bonus action hide to gain cover again.

Skulker.

You have Minor Illusion. Generate cover. Hide behind cover. Miss with a ranged attack, stay Hidden.

Enjoy your ranged Sneak Attack damage with Advantage "all day".
Very true. Much better than relying on a Familiar. ;)

[Willie the Duck]

More clarifying: I go in the rooms first, but then I come back out and we walk in as a group. If we're walking as a group, I am not at the front. The barbarian goes first, then me, then the cleric, then the sorcerer, and the paladin holds the rear. If a fight calls for me to be at range, I can back up pretty easy with my bonus action and such.

The eternal question of the rogue is whether to fight at range or in melee. Range means you will probably only get to sneak attack when you are in hiding. That is going to be very DM dependent upon when they will let you hide (we can talk all day about how it is supposed to work and it won't matter a bit). Melee means you are up near the enemies, which is dangerous. In that case, you are constantly going to be making decisions about using your bonus action to withdraw or to fight with your off-hand weapon*. I would tend to focus on jumping behind the guy the barbarian is fighting, SA them, and dashing away (assuming there is a place where you can dash protected by the sweep of the polearms. Adjust by situation).


*seriously, don't go rapier. Even if you only get to twf every few rounds, it is worth it. Let's say you are fighting without advantage, but in a position to SA, and your chance to hit is 50%. If you have one rapier, you are doing 50%*1d8+3+2d6+ 50%*0 = 7.25. If you have two short swords, you are doing 25%*4d6+3 + 50%*3D6+3 + 25%*0 = 11.


Another thing I'm thinking is, I suspect I'm the only person with an INT score over 10. It may be wise to pick up some INT-based skills somehow, either by multiclassing or taking Skilled. We'll be in serious trouble if we need to identify a magic item or recall a historic event and no one can do it. (I consider it bad form to specifically ask for someone's stats down to the exact numbers. Feels like metagame knowledge.)


You listed "Acrobatics, Sleight, Investigation, Perception, Deception, and the two I doubled up on were Stealth and Thieves' Tools." That is five skills. You should get 4 (rogue) + 1(elf gets perception) + 2 (for background). Did you not take a background? Because the Sage background gives you those exactly abilities, plus two languages.

[antipodeF]

You listed "Acrobatics, Sleight, Investigation, Perception, Deception, and the two I doubled up on were Stealth and Thieves' Tools." That is five skills. You should get 4 (rogue) + 1(elf gets perception) + 2 (for background). Did you not take a background? Because the Sage background gives you those exactly abilities, plus two languages.

I took the Criminal background, which granted me proficiency with one game of my choice (I picked Chess) and Thieves' Tools, which I traded for another tool skill because I'm already proficient with Thieves' Tools. (I picked Tarot Cards.) They'll probably never come up, but thems the breaks. I don't know if I was able to trade those for useable skll skills, but it's too late to go back on it now since I've actually made use of both game skills through roleplaying. : 3

(And yes I know being a Rogue Criminal is sort of suboptimal, and potentially a little boring. What can I say? It was the one that popped out at me for the character concept. She is a thief, through and through. : P)

EDIT: You say I listed 5 but, I listed 7? Count with me:

1: Acrobatics
2: Sleight
3: Investigation
4: Perception
5: Deception
and the two I doubled up on
6: Stealth
7: Thieves' Tools (which technically aren't a skill)

...... ah, but wait..... you're right, being an elf, I do start with proficiency in Perception, meaning I'm eligible to take another skill. Thanks for catching that.

[Willie the Duck]

EDIT: You say I listed 5 but, I listed 7? Count with me:

1: Acrobatics
2: Sleight
3: Investigation
4: Perception
5: Deception
and the two I doubled up on
6: Stealth
7: Thieves' Tools (which technically aren't a skill)

...... ah, but wait..... you're right, being an elf, I do start with proficiency in Perception, meaning I'm eligible to take another skill. Thanks for catching that.

I did count, and you are mistaken. There is no such thing as 'doubling up' in skills. What you get, as a rogue, is expertise in two skills, and this does not require the expenditure of any of your 7 skill 'slots.'
Criminal grants you Deception and Stealth. If you already picked up Deception and Stealth as two of your skills from the rogue list, then you can pick any two skills instead. This is why a Criminal background Rogue is anything but suboptimal. You have two free floating skills. Take that Arcana and that History and rock those knowledge checks.

[JohnDaBarr]

After playing a couple of games as a Rogue my advice is to ALWAYS go for 20 Dex first, feats can wait. Unless you multiclass a level or two of Fighter for that sweet Archery then is doable to skip one ASI.

[antipodeF]

There is no such thing as 'doubling up' in skills. What you get, as a rogue, is expertise in two skills, and this does not require the expenditure of any of your 7 skill 'slots.'
?
From the handbook: "At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies." You believe they're saying "Pick two skills you aren't proficient in and gain proficiency with them X2," not "Pick two you are proficient with and double the bonus"?

[Willie the Duck]

?
From the handbook: "At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies." You believe they're saying "Pick two skills you aren't proficient in and gain proficiency with them X2," not "Pick two you are proficient with and double the bonus"?

[Mea Culpa] No, apparently I can't read for a damn (or just too quickly). I read the doubled up bit and interpreted it as you thought you had to pay for the expertise with proficiency slots. I think my eyes were going right over the actual skills selected and reading "a, b, c, d, e, and the two I doubled up on, a and b" instead of "a, b, c, d, e, and the two I doubled up on, f and g." [/Mea Culpa]

But you do still get that one from elven free Perception, so at least you get that.

[mcsillas]

The eternal question of the rogue is whether to fight at range or in melee. Range means you will probably only get to sneak attack when you are in hiding. That is going to be very DM dependent upon when they will let you hide

I wouldn't be afraid to specialize in fighting at range as a rogue. If you take the skulker feat, you can hide in lightly obscured areas, meaning that unless a given area is brightly lit, completely bare, with no cover to hide behind, you'll be able to hide somewhere. If a rogue is not able to attempt to hide in 90%+ situations he finds himself in, the DM is doing something wrong. You can even hide in heavily obscured areas and pinpoint the location of anyone not hidden through hearing and suffer no penalty to attack since blinded condition cancels out for both creatures.