A cheap soul receptacle?

[Necroticplague]

Whiel trying to contradict sometone in another thread, I came across BoVD's pricing for sould. What's of relative interest was their relatively low price: a mere 200 GP for one in a receptacle. Ignoring how such a low price makes some things about the cosmology rather strange, one aspect of that confused me further: how can anybody supply at that price? All the methods of trapping souls that I could find that end up in some kind of receptacle cost so much that that's below-cost for it. Trap The Soul has a material component of 1000*HD, and for anyone who can cast it, 200 GP is pocket change. Even making it the soul of the weakest creatures possible at that price, it's still a lower end of 250 possible (incidentally, same price as soul in larva form). Same for Soul Bind. Thinuan costs a minimum of 10,000 GP. Demilichs can do it for free, but actually getting them as transferable receptacles seems to require killing the demilich (and again, anybody who could do that would ask much more than 200 GP for it). Devourers are similar, but don't even have some kind of implication that their trapped essence can pried of their corpse. Dark Altar Stone's are 150,000 GP.

So how does anyone manage to actually sell a soul in some kind of receptacle for a mere 200 GP? Is there method of trapping soul, cheaper than anything else, that I'm missing?

[ATHATH]

Keep in mind that those methods/spells are how us puny mortals have managed to do this. The denziens of the Hells have been trapping souls for eternities; they've probably refined soul-trapping into a near-effortless process by now.

[Deadline]

I like to think that those souls that are regularly traded and sold are petitioners, and not someone that you've used one of the many soul-trapping methods on. As such, anyone with authoritative access to the workings of their planar layer should be able to easily package up their petitioners and use them as they see fit.

Particular souls that have been trapped and prevented from traveling to their "just rewards" should be much more valuable, as I'd think if a fiend got their hands on a soul that was trapped in this manner could then be used in a manner that they couldn't do to someone whose soul had already become a petitioner.

It sounds like a good question to ask in Afro's Planar Questions thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527699-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VII

[unseenmage]

Could 'receptacle' refer to a living person's body? Perhaps 200gp is the going rate for one's firstborn in that market?

Could be interesting to check out Lords of Madness's slavery rules and see what slaves fall within that 200 gp price range.

[Gildedragon]

Re the Infernal Soul Economy
I figure it lends itself more to a sort of banking system. Massive soul receptacles where souls are rendered into pure malleable soulstuff
Tokens can then be used to represent whole, multiple or fractional souls for exchange, or traded back to the bank to get the souls for uses.
In a planar sense this works nicer than soul bartering for a few reasons:
Lawful Evil plane: bank bureaucracy is pretty much the embodiment of that. The crushing of hope and goodwill by menial drudgery and banalization of atrocities. One is just exchanging tokens, not tacitly supporting the torture and destruction of sapient creatures (except one is)
It gives Asmo a stronger power seat, and a number of beneficial positions with which to reward loyal or intelligent vassals that might not be politically savvy. Mhur'Zrazzaiel the imp that couldn't scheme his way out of a wet paper bag, but is diligent with numbers and twisty with contracts has a place in the Bank of Hell.
It solves the storage of souls issue, allows for fractional soul trading, gives a central receptacle for soul contracts.

[Fouredged Sword]

What is the smallest, cheapest item we can make out of thaumium (sp?) so that it seals souls into it if it is in contact with the person as they die? It would be useless as a weapon, but you can take someone alive and bind them helpless with a thaumium (sp?) marble strapped to their forehead as you chop their heads off with a normal ax. Use a small enough object and you should be able to make one pretty cheap, maybe even a few gold per soul container.

[Necroticplague]

Could 'receptacle' refer to a living person's body? Perhaps 200gp is the going rate for one's firstborn in that market?

Could be interesting to check out Lords of Madness's slavery rules and see what slaves fall within that 200 gp price range.
1. Probably not. After all, the 200 GP is from the section talking about using souls as a material component, so the receptacle is probably something you could fit in an SPC.
2.LoM's rules would have a 200 GP slave be a CR 1 or lower creature with one extraordinary/notable trait.


What is the smallest, cheapest item we can make out of thaumium (sp?) so that it seals souls into it if it is in contact with the person as they die? It would be useless as a weapon, but you can take someone alive and bind them helpless with a thaumium (sp?) marble strapped to their forehead as you chop their heads off with a normal ax. Use a small enough object and you should be able to make one pretty cheap, maybe even a few gold per soul container.

Thinuan is only listed as being usable for weapons. Hard to imagine simply making it smaller would do much good, given how even a Fine thinuan shuriken would be a hair over 10k, despite the incredibly small size it's already at.

[unseenmage]

1. Probably not. After all, the 200 GP is from the section talking about using souls as a material component, so the receptacle is probably something you could fit in an SPC.
2.LoM's rules would have a 200 GP slave be a CR 1 or lower creature with one extraordinary/notable trait.



Thinuan is only listed as being usable for weapons. Hard to imagine simply making it smaller would do much good, given how even a Fine thinuan shuriken would be a hair over 10k, despite the incredibly small size it's already at.

Am animated object thinaun object would theoretically have thinaun natural weapons.

[Jowgen]

The Balor sword of soul stealing from A&E mentions that there are rituals for drawing souls from a receptacle for various purposes, which could reasonably be assumed to include transfer to a different receptacle.

The most common receptacle used by spells and items are gems of varying value, the cheapest one being the 100 gp one for Magic Jar.

Thus I think the best answer is that Hags et al. have to make a significant investment in a reusable soul trapping method (Thinaun, BoVD Altar, pet Devourers); but are then able to transfer them to cheap soul-receptacle gems for free. The receptacles are reuseable, so they basically just circulate like starbucks loyalty cards (i.e. essentially worthless beyond their function).

I also think that 200 gp is the value of the most basic 1 HD, no special characteristics soul. In Baator, LE souls are worth more, and degrees of quality are well known.

[Crake]

I like to think that those souls that are regularly traded and sold are petitioners, and not someone that you've used one of the many soul-trapping methods on. As such, anyone with authoritative access to the workings of their planar layer should be able to easily package up their petitioners and use them as they see fit.

Particular souls that have been trapped and prevented from traveling to their "just rewards" should be much more valuable, as I'd think if a fiend got their hands on a soul that was trapped in this manner could then be used in a manner that they couldn't do to someone whose soul had already become a petitioner.

It sounds like a good question to ask in Afro's Planar Questions thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527699-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VII

I think this hit it on the head. The reason the spells you mentioned are so expensive is because they prevent the correct flow of souls, essentially enabling the damnation of someone not deserving to be damned. Obviously such a soul is worth more.

However, take for example, the fiend of corruption from the fiend folio, or the pact insidious/pact certain from fiendish codex II, these are both ways of damning a soul and presumably attaining ownership over the soul, at no cost to the fiend in question. The fiend of corruption gets the soul inside an actual gem itself, however, the pact insidious/certain simply damns the soul to baator, where its ground into the beginnings of a lemure, though possibly not if the local lord has other plans for the soul, as mentioned above, packaging them up into soul gems and selling them to interested buyers.

Also keep in mind, any creature with soul bind as an SLA can steal souls indiscriminately at no cost, the same goes for epic spellcasters with ignore material components, able to trap the souls of 1HD creatures for free, or potentially magic items that churn out soul gems.

Edit: I'm looking for creatures with soul bind/trap the soul as an SLA, so far:
PAELIRYON - Fiend Folio - Soul Bind
VARAKHUT - Fiend Folio - Soul Bind
MOLYDEUS - Fiendish Codex I - Trap the Soul
BRACHINA (Pleasure Devil) - Fiendish Codex II - Trap the Soul
RAKSHASA, AK'CHAZAR - MM3 - Trap the Soul

That's what I've found looking through the fiend folio, monster manuals 1-5, both fiendish codecies, lords of madness and the book of exalted deeds, and book of vile darkness.

[unseenmage]

...

Also keep in mind, any creature with soul bind as an SLA can steal souls indiscriminately at no cost, the same goes for epic spellcasters with ignore material components, able to trap the souls of 1HD creatures for free, or potentially magic items that churn out soul gems.

Edit: I'm looking for creatures with soul bind/trap the soul as an SLA, so far:
PAELIRYON - Fiend Folio - Soul Bind
VARAKHUT - Fiend Folio - Soul Bind
MOLYDEUS - Fiendish Codex I - Trap the Soul
BRACHINA (Pleasure Devil) - Fiendish Codex II - Trap the Soul
RAKSHASA, AK'CHAZAR - MM3 - Trap the Soul

That's what I've found looking through the fiend folio, monster manuals 1-5, both fiendish codecies, lords of madness and the book of exalted deeds, and book of vile darkness.

Simulacrum of the above can also trap souls so creatures with Simulacrum SLAs are potential contenders.

Spell Clocks and Custom Magic Traps can also repeatedly trap souls, though turning those into creatures can he sketchy at best.


IIRC trapping souls in PF is much easier and uses spells of much lower level.

[Zanos]

Use Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm) instead, which has a focus instead of a material component, and therefore can be reused.

Stick 400 commoner souls in a 1,000 gp focus and you can make some money.

[Jowgen]

Thinuan is only listed as being usable for weapons. Hard to imagine simply making it smaller would do much good, given how even a Fine thinuan shuriken would be a hair over 10k, despite the incredibly small size it's already at.

I think it's possible to get the 1/50th ammo discount on Thinaun, as the general rule for that discount stands above the lack of table entry for the price. The problem is finding a piece of ammo that qualifies for the material.

"Only melee weapons made primarily of metal can be crafted as thinaun weapons", so shurikens as thrown weapons are right out. We know that arrows/bolts are considered to qualify for both "primarily wood" and "primarily metal" special materials; but arguments for them to be considered melee weapons based on their given stats as improvised daggers in melee are rather flimsy.

To my knowledge, there is exactly 1 item that is both ammunition and a non-improvised weapon that can be made from metal: the Stirge Bolt, from A&E p. 119. It is explictly referred to as "a Tiny wooden weapon", wherein the "wooden" part can be ignored based on how things like cold-iron arrows are explicitly a thing.

Deconstructed in terms of pricing, the Stirge portion of a Strige bolt's enhancement is a +2 WSA, so if you can get that you should be able to get a rather nicely price +1 Strige Thinaun Bolt for 568 gp. They're re-useable as well unless sundered.