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Tyger
2007-08-06, 11:25 PM
The title says it all really. Any suggestions? Books allowed would be pretty much anything, and the level would be in the 12-14 range.

MeklorIlavator
2007-08-06, 11:38 PM
Well, most classes will either give you better magic, or better skills, except the Unseen Seer(Complete Mage, though you need Divination spells to qualify) and the Arcane Trickster(DMG). On the Magic side, Mindbender(ComArc, gives you a couple of neat trick, thopugh its better for a 1 level dip, due to lost caster levels). Thief Acrobat might due well on the skill side, depending on the focus of the character. Really, I think the Beguilers , and to a certain extent all of the focused casters like the warmage, don't do to well with PrC's.

ImperiousLeader
2007-08-06, 11:42 PM
If you don't mind playing a Gnome, Shadowcraft Mage is excellent, adding a lot of versatility to the Beguiler as you can cast any sor/wiz evocation or conjuration (creation or summoning) spell.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-06, 11:43 PM
Beguiler/Warblade/Jade Phoenix Mage is fun.

Tyger
2007-08-07, 12:00 AM
If you don't mind playing a Gnome, Shadowcraft Mage is excellent, adding a lot of versatility to the Beguiler as you can cast any sor/wiz evocation or conjuration (creation or summoning) spell.

Yeah, the Shadowcraft Mage is looking great. I just cracked my Races of Stone for the first time in a long while, and a Whisper Gnome Beguiler / Shadowcraft Mage is looking like a very nice combination indeed.

cupkeyk
2007-08-07, 12:23 AM
whispergnomes get a cha penalty. go rock gnome.

TheOOB
2007-08-07, 12:45 AM
A single level dip in mindbender is one of the best investments you can make. It gives you 100' telepathy and has the side effect of making all your advanced learnings apply to higher level spells.

Amiria
2007-08-07, 02:55 AM
A single level dip in mindbender is one of the best investments you can make. It gives you 100' telepathy and has the side effect of making all your advanced learnings apply to higher level spells.

And you also qualify for the great Mindsight feat (LoM), which you can take at level 9 => automatically sense every creature in telepathy range that isn't mindless.

So a 9th level human beguiler could have the GSF (Ench), GSF (Illu), SF (Ench), SF (Illu), and Mindsight feats.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-07, 03:22 AM
More Beguiler.

Seriously, it's got good class features all the way up and down the line. Don't knock a good thing. It's one of the few classes which doesn't NEED a Prestige Class. However, a two-level dip in Shadowdancer nets you Hide in Plain Sight and Darkvision 60', which is always handy. If your GM lets you trade in Evasion for Spell Reflection like in Complete Arcane (or maybe Complete Mage, forgot which), Shadowdancer lets you get it back.

Reinboom
2007-08-07, 03:23 AM
One of my players is doing whispergnome Beguiler 5 -> Mindbender 1 -> Beguiler +1 -> Shadowcraft Mage with mindsight. It is very formidable.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-07, 03:28 AM
One of my players is doing whispergnome Beguiler 5 -> Mindbender 1 -> Beguiler +1 -> Shadowcraft Mage with mindsight. It is very formidable.

Yep, that's good alright. From a crunch perspective anyway, which I presume is as much as we're discussing.

namo
2007-08-07, 04:38 AM
Taking the Shadow Weave feat and dipping for 1 level in Shadow Adept (PGtF) is pretty good : it nets you 3 feats ! They enhance illusions/enchantment/necromancy and weaken evocation/transmutation.

SMDVogrin
2007-08-07, 05:10 AM
I'm playing a Beguiler right now who took a one level dip in Mindbender, and is now taking levels in Fiend-Blooded (from Heroes of Horror). Not particularly good for a skill monkey character, but it gives you some neat options for additional spells known, and it's full casting progression except for level 10.

Abstruse
2007-08-07, 06:50 AM
Yeah, the Shadowcraft Mage is looking great. I just cracked my Races of Stone for the first time in a long while, and a Whisper Gnome Beguiler / Shadowcraft Mage is looking like a very nice combination indeed.

In theory it looks good, but you can't get into that PrC until level 12 as a beguiler. One of the prereqs is that you be able to cast an illusion (shadow) spell of at least 4th level, and there aren't any on the beguiler list until spell level 6. And since you can't use your advanced learning for a 4th level spell like shadow conjuration until you hit 11, the entire progression of getting into the PrC as early as possible breaks up.

Tyger
2007-08-07, 07:04 AM
whispergnomes get a cha penalty. go rock gnome.

Sure, a Charisma penalty that will basically amount to a -1 on some skills... but they get Glibness so really, does a -1 on Bluff really matter that much? :)

I like the Whisper Gnomes for the stealth aspects. Thinking of whipping up a Beguiler for an ongoing campaign, and the party is a bit lacking in the stealthy / skill monkey / bluff & diplomacy department. The stealthy skill monkey portion is implicit in a Whisper Gnome Beguilder, and the bluff & diplomacy stuff can easily be worked in...

That Shadowcraft Mage is just calling my name. Thanks Imperious Leader. Great suggestion!

Rumda
2007-08-07, 07:09 AM
In theory it looks good, but you can't get into that PrC until level 12 as a beguiler. One of the prereqs is that you be able to cast an illusion (shadow) spell of at least 4th level, and there aren't any on the beguiler list until spell level 6. And since you can't use your advanced learning for a 4th level spell like shadow conjuration until you hit 11, the entire progression of getting into the PrC as early as possible breaks up.

thats why you take a one level dip in to mindbender so you can choose a 4th level spell for the second advanced learning

ImperiousLeader
2007-08-07, 07:16 AM
Or you take Heighten Spell, which is vital for every Shadowcraft Mage build, and notice that even a third level Shadow spell is treated as a fourth when you heighten it.

That said, Beguiler 5 / Mindbender 1 / Beguiler +2 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 / Beguiler +7 is a pretty solid build.

Tyger
2007-08-07, 07:29 AM
OK, ways to get straight into Shadowcraft Mage from Beguiler within 10 levels?? Without dipping into any other classes? We have a houserule that you can only take multiple prestige classes if you complete the progression in the other class (i.e. no one level dipping)

This is likely to be a level 14 character, and would be great if I can get all 5 levels of SM in there. If not though, c'est la vie.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-07, 07:42 AM
Is there a single level one Illusion (Shadow) spell anywhere on the sorc/wizard list? Taken as your first Advanced Learning, and with Heighten Spell, this qualifies you.

Sabattus
2007-08-07, 08:03 AM
thats why you take a one level dip in to mindbender so you can choose a 4th level spell for the second advanced learning

OK, I admit, that's a nifty trick. :smallwink: And it definitely works better than the "oh, I take Heighten Spell so that my third-level spell counts as a fourth-level spell for purposes of getting into the PrC" BS.

Abstruse
2007-08-07, 08:09 AM
Is there a single level one Illusion (Shadow) spell anywhere on the sorc/wizard list? Taken as your first Advanced Learning, and with Heighten Spell, this qualifies you.

Technically there are such spells (in the SpC, for example), but using Heighten Spell to "qualify" for a PrC is so preposterous that I'd disallow it in any game I was GMing. :smallmad:

Ikkitosen
2007-08-07, 08:10 AM
Technically there are such spells (in the SpC, for example), but using Heighten Spell to "qualify" for a PrC is so preposterous that I'd disallow it in any game I was GMing. :smallmad:

I consider dipping into a PrC you have no real interest in to be far more preposterous.

Abstruse
2007-08-07, 08:31 AM
Both are there for metagaming reasons. A level of Mindbender at least makes sense when combined with Beguiler, given the whole "mind-affecting" bent of the Beguiler class in general.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-07, 08:36 AM
So only non-good Beguilers should have the ability to push their Advanced Learning ability back a level?

Heighten Spell is legitimate when combined with Advanced Learning in this manner (ie. to provide an Illusion (Shadow) spell of the requisite level). There's no rule bending or dipping involved, no clever interpretations are needed, it even specifically says the spell counts as the higher level under Heighten Spell.

Tyger
2007-08-07, 08:37 AM
Yeah, the one level dip isn't an option in our game, as noted above, and my guess is that the DM is not going to buy the Heighten Spell cheese either. While it may be RAW, its still pretty goudaish... its a feat that allows you to cast a spell you know as a higher level spell... you don't actually know that higher level spell. Maybe RAW, but I don't think RAI. If it can be shown otherwise, that would make me VERY happy!

So, looks like 12 levels of Beguiler before legitimately getting into SM?

Overlard
2007-08-07, 08:43 AM
So only non-good Beguilers should have the ability to push their Advanced Learning ability back a level?

Heighten Spell is legitimate when combined with Advanced Learning in this manner (ie. to provide an Illusion (Shadow) spell of the requisite level). There's no rule bending or dipping involved, no clever interpretations are needed, it even specifically says the spell counts as the higher level under Heighten Spell.
If you're using the Spell Compendium, there are lower level shadow spells. There's even one at first level, so with heighten spell you can get into Shadowcraft Mage as soon as you meet the other requirements.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-07, 08:43 AM
@^^: I guess it's just going to be one of those things that people interpret in a different manner.

I mean, do you allow (Improved) Counterspelling with Heightened Spell? Can I counter your Fireball (Evocation) with my Heightened - to 4th level - Magic Missile (Evocation), provided I have the feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCounterspell)?

If your answer is yes (and I think almost everyone's is) then you admit that a heightened spell is a spell of its type of a higher level. Q. E. D.

EDIT: @^


If you're using the Spell Compendium, there are lower level shadow spells. There's even one at first level, so with heighten spell you can get into Shadowcraft Mage as soon as you meet the other requirements.

That's what we're discussing: The legitimacy of using Heighten Spell in this manner.

Tyger
2007-08-07, 08:47 AM
Hey, don't get me wrong, I like your interpretation. But the text of the Heighten Spell feat only refers to a spells "effective level" not to its actual level. So that is a matter open to interpretation. Personally, I am going to push for it, so that I can get the SM in as soon as is feasible. The alternative would be scrapping beguiler and going wizard, but that's just not as appealing to me here.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-07, 08:49 AM
I'm not getting you wrong, I'm trying to provide a convincing argument (one you may later use to your DM when he takes the standpoint that has been taken here by some :smallwink: ).

Seriously, if it counts for as a higher level spell for Improved Counterspell then why not in your case too?

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-07, 08:49 AM
Yeah, the one level dip isn't an option in our game, as noted above, and my guess is that the DM is not going to buy the Heighten Spell cheese either. While it may be RAW, its still pretty goudaish... its a feat that allows you to cast a spell you know as a higher level spell... you don't actually know that higher level spell. Maybe RAW, but I don't think RAI. If it can be shown otherwise, that would make me VERY happy!

So, looks like 12 levels of Beguiler before legitimately getting into SM?

What's the problem? The whole purpose of Heighten Spell is to treat lower-level spells as higher level. I can't see how using it to do exactly that is in any way cheesy.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-07, 08:52 AM
Ultimate Magus and fueling meta magic.

Tyger
2007-08-07, 08:52 AM
Well, Heighten spell is only changing the effective level of a spell...

Something tells me that the SM requirement doesn't state you need to be able to cast a spell, but rather that you need to know a spell. If I am wrong (don't have my books in front of me, posting from work FTW) then GREAT!!!

Ikkitosen
2007-08-07, 08:57 AM
No books here either, but most PrCs go with "must be able to cast level x spells" or whatever, which plays into your hands. Bwa ha ha!

Tyger
2007-08-07, 08:58 AM
Here's hoping that's what it says. If so, then I just need to be able to convince a very truculent DM of this. :) *crosses fingers*

Ikkitosen
2007-08-07, 09:01 AM
I fyou have a DM that's a stickler for rules but will allow anything that's RAW then - assuming he refuses your request for this character - just cheese it up with a Wiz/IotSV and laugh all the way to virtual invincibility.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-07, 11:38 AM
Please. Wizard/incantatrix/Archmage.

Annnyways. Shadowcraft mage handbook of win (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556)

Hmmm... no mention of early beguiler entry. Heighten spell is legal accoding to the CO guys, but... they're CO.

Person_Man
2007-08-07, 12:07 PM
Anything that has full caster progression will work fine. Higher level spells are always more powerful then class abilities that you might get from dipping into something else, such as Shadowdancer or a Tome of Battle class.

You also want to try to diversify. Beguilers have a hard time against mindless enemies. So anything that adds blaster and/or battlefield control ability helps a lot. The Draconic Breath feat from Races of the Dragon is a good example.

Tyger
2007-08-07, 12:16 PM
Thats actually one of the reasons why the SM is so appealing. With the PrCs special abilities, and Heighten spell, the blaster side of wizardry can be accommodated quite nicely with quasi real illusions, doing full damage even on disbelief. That PrC is making me very happy. I was actually thinking of going the full rogue route, but that class changed my mind.

PowerWordSneeze
2007-08-07, 12:52 PM
The good folks over at the CO baords have also put together a Handbook to Building a Strong Beguiler (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=805782).

Abstruse
2007-08-07, 01:17 PM
If you're using the Spell Compendium, there are lower level shadow spells. There's even one at first level, so with heighten spell you can get into Shadowcraft Mage as soon as you meet the other requirements.

True, but the problem lies in the fact that Shadowcraft Mage specifies you must be able to cast at least one shadow spell of 4th level or higher. Though the SpC is useful in many other regards for illusionists and beguilers, sadly that won't satisfy the prereq.

Tyger
2007-08-07, 01:52 PM
True, but the problem lies in the fact that Shadowcraft Mage specifies you must be able to cast at least one shadow spell of 4th level or higher. Though the SpC is useful in many other regards for illusionists and beguilers, sadly that won't satisfy the prereq.

The argument here is that you can use the Heighten Spell feat to satisfy the need for a level 4 shadow spell simply by heightening a level 1, 2 or 3 shadow spell. Per RAW, it seems to work. That would mean that you could get into the PrC as soon as 9th level (8 levels of Beguiler to get 4th level access). Which is what I am going to pitch to the DM.

UserClone
2007-08-07, 06:47 PM
I mean, do you allow (Improved) Counterspelling with Heightened Spell? Can I counter your Fireball (Evocation) with my Heightened - to 4th level - Magic Missile (Evocation), provided I have the feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCounterspell)?

If your answer is yes (and I think almost everyone's is) then you admit that a heightened spell is a spell of its type of a higher level. Q. E. D.


For what it's worth, guy, you can't use a heightened spell as a counterspell (unless you are a strange batman who prepares a no-save spell as heightened by two levels), for the simple reason that you can't ready a Full-round Action. But one illustration that a heightened 1st level spell does NOT equal a 4th level spell.
You need a 4th level spell to enter the PrC, not a 1st level spell and a feat, otherwise, those would have been the prereqs. Stop trying to break the game. ~Flutters-With-Pigeons
P.S. Fireball is a 3rd level spell. A better example would have been Cone of Cold.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-07, 06:49 PM
For what it's worth, guy, you can't use a heightened spell as a counterspell, for the simple reason that you can't ready a Full-round Action. But one illustration that a heightened 1st level spell does NOT equal a 4th level spell.
You need a 4th level spell to enter the PrC, not a 1st level spell and a feat, otherwise, those would have been the prereqs. Stop trying to break the game. ~Flutters-With-Pigeons

Uh, yes, you can. Check the FAQ.

UserClone
2007-08-07, 06:51 PM
Fax, regarless of the fact you can, doesn't mean you should allow it. Several others in this thread have agreed. It is silly, and cheese. My point is that, ,while it may be RAW, some of those rules are dumb. This is one of them. It's a PRESTIGE class, something you are supposed to get after working your buns off, not after rules lawyering (unless the PrC in question has rules lawyering:5 ranks as a prereq).

Fax Celestis
2007-08-07, 07:09 PM
No, no. As far as prereqs, I agree with you. But I'm too attached to my countercaster sorceror/shadowcaster/noctumancer to ever give up heightened counterspelling.

Tyger
2007-08-07, 07:48 PM
Fax, regarless of the fact you can, doesn't mean you should allow it. Several others in this thread have agreed. It is silly, and cheese. My point is that, ,while it may be RAW, some of those rules are dumb. This is one of them. It's a PRESTIGE class, something you are supposed to get after working your buns off, not after rules lawyering (unless the PrC in question has rules lawyering:5 ranks as a prereq).

Well, this is a discussion of RAW, so the fact that you can is relevant and highly important. Whether or not the DM allows it is another question entirely.

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-08, 12:55 AM
No, no. As far as prereqs, I agree with you. But I'm too attached to my countercaster sorceror/shadowcaster/noctumancer to ever give up heightened counterspelling.
Just get Rapid Spellcasting and you'll be fine.

Leon
2007-08-08, 01:36 AM
Dracolexi

Requires
Eschew Mats or Still spell (you get Still Spell as a Bonus at 5th lvl)
2 Class skills and 1 Cross Class skill
Able to speak Draconic + 2 of Dwarf, Elf, Fire or Air
Able to cast 2nd lvl Arcane Spells Spont and know 1 Language based spell

Gains
Draconic Words - Unlimited uses per day with a varitey of effects
Eschew Mats as a Bonus feat
Access to Power Word Spells
Bonus Spells
Ability to overcome silence effects

Loses
1 CL

Ikkitosen
2007-08-08, 03:25 AM
For what it's worth, guy, you can't use a heightened spell as a counterspell (unless you are a strange batman who prepares a no-save spell as heightened by two levels), for the simple reason that you can't ready a Full-round Action. But one illustration that a heightened 1st level spell does NOT equal a 4th level spell.
You need a 4th level spell to enter the PrC, not a 1st level spell and a feat, otherwise, those would have been the prereqs. Stop trying to break the game. ~Flutters-With-Pigeons
P.S. Fireball is a 3rd level spell. A better example would have been Cone of Cold.

I believe you are confusing spontaneous and prepared casting. A wizard can prepare a Heightened spell without increasing its casting time just fine, can cast it as a standard action and can indeed dispel with it. So in fact this is "but one illustration that a 1st level spell DOES equal a 4th level spell", under the effects of Heighten Spell. If you can cast a 1st level shadow spell, and you can Heighten it to 4th level then you can cast a 4th level shadow spell. RAW. I believe the standard quote is something like "opinions have no place in a discussion of RAW" or something.

P.S. What? How would Cone of Cold have helped? You certainly can't counterspell that with a 4th level evocation!

Lapak
2007-08-08, 10:32 AM
Beguiler/Warblade/Jade Phoenix Mage is fun.That actually does sound very fun, even if it's not the most powerful mix possible. Very stylish Beguiler build.

UserClone
2007-08-08, 12:56 PM
:smallredface: Eh, I may have forgotten 3 things, while posting on the fly, without having consulted the SRD:

Improved counterspell requires a spell level of 1 higher than the spell being countered.
Cone of Cold is a 5th level spell, not 4th.
Where I last left my dunce cap.

However:
Since when can a spontaneous caster use a metamagic (read: full-round casting time) spell as a counterspell? If it takes you from now until your next turn to cast it normally, how are you going to ready an action to begin casting it in order to interrupt someone, what, after they've already cast?

Arbitrarity
2007-08-08, 12:59 PM
When your sorceror took metamagic specialist variant, when you took the rapid spell (or whatever it was) feat, and also, you don't know the difference between a full round and 1 round casting time.

Full round takes your entire action (not swift though) and finishes at the end of your turn.

1 round takes entire action (not swift, again) and finishes just before the start of your next turn.

UserClone
2007-08-08, 01:08 PM
d20 SRD: A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
(emphasis mine)
I found therein NO mention of this full-round-action casting time in which the spell's effect takes place at the end of your turn this round

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-08, 02:22 PM
Casting a Metamagic Spell
Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. Note that this isn’t the same as a spell with a 1-round casting time—the spell takes effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you aren’t required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn. For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the metamagic spell.

From: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm

Segial
2007-08-21, 09:53 AM
What about the "Loremaster" or "Archmage" PrC? The secret lore abilities of the loremaster are INT-based and the additional languages would fit well with the theme, and as for the archmage, spellfocus in illusion and enchantment is something you would take anyway, and getting arcane fire would give the beguiler a way to deal damage the class is currently lacking.