BOSS BATTLE HELP: The Fatal Hand of Four

[Captain Kablam]

Hello all, I could use some help. The concept I'm working with is a team of 4 level 7 ninjas (not completely full ninjas mind you). The gimmick with them is that they keep popping in and out of combat one at a time, using a combination of ghost step and hiding, that way it makes it seem is that the players are facing one powerful ninja master with a ton of abilities and teleportation, when really it's just four guys bsing them.

Here's the group so far.
Magol The Blade
CR7 Elf Fighter(4) Ninja(3), 7HD, HP: 47
AC:17 FF:17, T:17, BAB:6/1 Ki:4/4
Str8, Dex16, Con14
Int13, Wis16, Cha8

ABILITIES
--Immune to Sleep effects--
--+2 saves vs. enchantment--
--L.L. Vision--
--Ki Power--
--Sudden Strike 2d6--
--Trapfinding--
--Ghost Step--
--Poison use--

Feats:
--Weapon Finesse
--Shadow Blade
--TWF
--Imp. TWF
--(Fighter)Combat Expertise
--(Fighter)Improved Feint
--(Fighter)Improved Trip

Loot:
-x2 MW Short Sword
-x3 Cat's Grace Potions
-x1 Cure M. Wounds
-x2 Invisibility Potions
-x10 Shuriken
-180g

Rinc
CR7 Elf Ninja7, 7HD, HP:38
AC:17 FF:17, T:17, BAB:5 Ki:6/6
Str8, Dex16, Con14
Int13, Wis16, Cha8

ABILITIES
--Immune to Sleep effects--
--+2 saves vs. enchantment--
--L.L. Vision--
--Ki Power--
--Sudden Strike, 4d6--
--Trapfinding--
--Ghost Step--
--Poison use--
--Great Leap--
--Acrobatics--
--Speed Climb--
--Ki Dodge--

Feats:
--Weapon Finesse
--Shadow Blade
--Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
--Combat Reflexes

Loot
-MW Spiked Chain
-x5 Tanglefoot Bags
-x5 Ninja Bombs
-x5 Smoke Sticks
-x5 Caltrops
-MW Theives Tools
-Silk Rope
-Grappling Hook
-Large Scorpion Venom: 18 FORT, 1d6 Str
-x1 Invisibility potion
-x1 Cats Grace Potion
-x1 Cure M Wounds
-x10 Shuriken
-388g

Peni
CR7 Elf Cleric4 Ninja3, 7HD, HP:43
AC:17 FF:17, T:17, BAB:5 Ki:4/4
Str8, Dex16, Con14
Int13, Wis16, Cha8

ABILITIES
--Immune to Sleep effects--
--+2 saves vs. enchantment--
--L.L. Vision--
--Ki Power--
--Sudden Strike 2d6--
--Trapfinding--
--Ghost Step--
--Poison use--
--Turn Undead--

Feats:
--Weapon Finesse
--TWF
--Craft Wand
--Scribe Scroll

SPELLS: Magic & Trickery Domains
++0++
--Create Water--x2
--Detect Magic--x2
--Read Magic--

++1st++
--Disguise Self--
--Bless--
--Endure Elements--
--Deathwatch--
--Sancuary--
--Mage Armor--(WAND)
--Cure Light Wounds--(WAND)
--Ray of Enfeeblement--(WAND)

++2nd++
--Invisibility--
--Cure M. Wounds--
--Enthrall--
--Zone of Truth--
--Summon Monster 2--(Scroll)
Summons 1d3 Celestial Owls 3 rounds

Loot:
-Flute
-Wand: Cure L. Wounds
-Wand: Mage Armor
-Wand: Ray of Enfeeblement
-x4 Scroll Summon Monster II
-Healer's Kit
-MW Quarterstaff
-125g


Fast and Short, Magol is a dual swordsman, Rinc uses a spiked chain and tricks to keep the players off balance. Peni just stays invisible, making heals, buffs, and summons.

I'm having trouble thinking up a thing for the fourth guy to compliment the other three. I'm hoping to get some suggestions on that, and any improvements you feel I can make on the others above.

All I ask is that:
-The first 3 levels are Ninja
-And the equipment stays within the 2,600gp range
-And no illusionists (plot reasons)

Thanks for any and all input.

[J-H]

I would go with a Shadow Hand swordsage. There are several shadow/teleport-type powers in there, as well as +Sneak attack from Assassin's stance, as well as one that gives the user invisibility for the duration of his turn (allowing sneak attacks, movement without being spotted, etc.).

[Crake]

Gonna point out that Rinc and Magnol have the shadow blade feat which requires you to have a shadow hand stance, but they lacks any shadow hand abilities. I would take J-H's suggestion and apply that to Rinc instead.

Have you considered the extreme weakness to any kind of strength reduction that the party has so far? Even a single ray of enfeeblement could drop them to 1 strength, essentially incapacitating them due to over encumbrance.

You've also given them the exact same ability arrays, is that intentional?

Have you considered that a 1st level druid spell, 2nd level wizard spell, or 3rd level cleric spell renders the party practically useless?

As for a fourth guy, well, you have the typical melee dude, rogue dude and healer dude, why not introduce a caster dude, sorcerer perhaps? You can use the aescetic caster feat to let him get cha to AC instead of wisdom to AC from ninja (it's technically for monks, but the ninja AC bonus is practically identical to the monk one), plus he can buff the party with mage armor to shore up their frankly abysmal AC. 21 AC isn't great at level 7, but it's still better than 17.

Speaking of which, are you aware that you've got all their flat footed AC's written down as 17, despite none of them having uncanny dodge? Magnol and Peni shouldn't even have 17 AC, they should have 16, because they don't have the +1 AC bonus from level 5 ninja. Oh, and Magnol they all seem to have an extra feat out of nowhere. Are you running pathfinder feat rules by any chance? Getting feats at every odd level instead of 1st and at every 3rd level?

[Demidos]

Well, off the top of my head, looks like you have a healer, a DPS, and lockdown BFC.

You are missing:
A face and/or scout, perhaps an enchanter who can turn some party members against others and get the rest of the party into places (Ninja 3/Vampire?)
An environment changer, like someone with snowsight and sleet storm. (Both spells from 3.5, one creates a snowstorm, one allows you to see through snow) Ninja 3/Druid
An archer
An AOE specialist, though that is a bit out of character for ninja assassins

[ATHATH]

Aw man, this reminds me of that Sunflora mini-adventure from Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Sky...

[Captain Kablam]

Gonna point out that Rinc and Magnol have the shadow blade feat which requires you to have a shadow hand stance, but they lacks any shadow hand abilities. I would take J-H's suggestion and apply that to Rinc instead.

You've also given them the exact same ability arrays, is that intentional?

As for a fourth guy, well, you have the typical melee dude, rogue dude and healer dude, why not introduce a caster dude, sorcerer perhaps? You can use the aescetic caster feat to let him get cha to AC instead of wisdom to AC from ninja (it's technically for monks, but the ninja AC bonus is practically identical to the monk one), plus he can buff the party with mage armor to shore up their frankly abysmal AC. 21 AC isn't great at level 7, but it's still better than 17.

Speaking of which, are you aware that you've got all their flat footed AC's written down as 17, despite none of them having uncanny dodge? Magnol and Peni shouldn't even have 17 AC, they should have 16, because they don't have the +1 AC bonus from level 5 ninja. Oh, and Magnol they all seem to have an extra feat out of nowhere. Are you running pathfinder feat rules by any chance? Getting feats at every odd level instead of 1st and at every 3rd level?

Let's see. If I recall correctly, Weapon Finesse was a suitable substitution for the shadow hand requirement.

And yeah the ability score set up was me being intentional....ly lazy. Way I had it justified was that they trained together their whole lives.

Thought about potentially going for a caster. And being able to apply the defense and casting stuff to CHA instead of WIS should help a lot in setting that up. Also Peni by having the magic domain can just straight up use a mage armor wand with no problem, so technically the fight has them going in with 21 armor.

Moving along yeah with the 17 AC, I cheated a little. I looked at the ninja defense and I thought, "Well if they're still sticking to no armor in training, not a big deal."

As for the feat array, it should be correct. I thought it was two at first, and then 1 at every third so 1 at 3 and 1 at 6th.

[WeaselGuy]

Humans and Strongheart Halflings (and I'm sure a few others...) get an extra feat at level 1. Otherwise, it's just 1 feat at 1st level.

[DeTess]

Let's see. If I recall correctly, Weapon Finesse was a suitable substitution for the shadow hand requirement.


I don't think you recall correctly. The feat says that you can use the shadow blade feat instead of the weapon finesse feat for the prerequisites fro any other feats or PrC's, not that you can use the weapon finesse feat to replace the requirement of being in a shadow hand stance.

[Crake]

Let's see. If I recall correctly, Weapon Finesse was a suitable substitution for the shadow hand requirement.


As for the feat array, it should be correct. I thought it was two at first, and then 1 at every third so 1 at 3 and 1 at 6th.

Others have already covered these, but yeah, elves only get 1 feat at level 1, if you want them to have 2 feats at level 1, you'd need them to be humans. This also means that Magnol's 6th level feat, improved two weapon fighting, is invalid, since he only has 5 bab at level 6 and thus does not qualify, though you can shuffle some feats around and give him improved two weapon fighting at level 7, when he does qualify, with one of his fighter bonus feats, so not a big deal.


And yeah the ability score set up was me being intentional....ly lazy. Way I had it justified was that they trained together their whole lives.

The way I have always interpreted ability scores is mostly inherent, it's what you're born with. It can obviously be adjusted through training and exercises, but 4 people who all train together their whole lives will still not necessarily end up with the same ability score arrays. Not only that, if you're training a team of warriors, you want them to be well rounded as a group, and not all share the same weaknesses, for example, being weak :smalltongue:


Thought about potentially going for a caster. And being able to apply the defense and casting stuff to CHA instead of WIS should help a lot in setting that up. Also Peni by having the magic domain can just straight up use a mage armor wand with no problem, so technically the fight has them going in with 21 armor.

If you're happy with them doing hit and run tactics, you can also include a wand or two of lesser vigor. Gives fast healing 1 for 11 rounds, allowing them to heal up between fights relatively easily, before coming back the same day and trying again. The wand(s) of lesser vigor will also likely be a welcome addition to your party's arsenal if they defeat the ninjas before all the charges are used.


Moving along yeah with the 17 AC, I cheated a little. I looked at the ninja defense and I thought, "Well if they're still sticking to no armor in training, not a big deal."

I'd recommend against this kind of thing, unless you would extend the players the same courtesy. It's only fair that the ninjas trained in separate classes, ones that do grant armor proficiency (and would honestly give them more AC if they put on some armor), so they shouldn't get the extra AC from 5th level ninja. If you feel like you need to boost the characters, then it just means you haven't built them solidly enough. This is also somewhat a product of having the same ability score array, forcing you to need to make them all fight generally in the same way, despite being so differently built. Both of the melee guys rely on attacking while ghost stepped, and getting damage from sudden strike. Against anyone with uncanny dodge, they're practically useless, not even capable of dealing more than 7 damage per hit (since they don't qualify for shadow blade, they're all getting -1 damage to their attacks due to low strength).

If you're still interested in going for an arcane style caster as the fourth, and I'm assuming you want to hold an oriental theme? Then consider the wu-jen (an int caster, so instead of aescetic mage, get kung-fu genius, allows the use of int instead of wis) as the arcane, and maybe change peni to a shugenja, an oriental style divine caster.

If you want some help rebuilding any of the characters you currently have, or decide on an idea for the fourth and need help with that, i'd be happy to help out. I do have a question though, what level are the party going to be when coming across these characters?