Players too op

[Mighty Physche]

I'm getting much better at handelinf there shenanigans, but my players are ave lv 14 and have at best +3 weapons. However they are completely destroying encounters of cr 20 in like 2 rounds without takes by dmg. It is my fault for giving them free reign of any book, but I don't want to just "take it back." Any ideas for how to put them in their place without just straight murdering them. Right now my problems are like 4 players can teleport and 2 of those guys are nearly unkillable, not because they are strong but the rest of the party relies on them so much if they die so does everyone else. I don't just want to cheese it though. Any thoughts?

[Hackulator]

you need to give specifics about their builds or it is hard to give useful advice

[J-H]

Please post more eetails about their characters and tactics.

[emeraldstreak]

As a rule of thumb, when generic monsters can't cut it, monsters with class levels or NPCs can.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Well spell out for us what they are using, what books/feats/etc?

Four of them can teleport? Are they wizards/sorcerers/clerics with the Travel domain? Then good, that's kind of the expected result at 14th level, heck five levels before that for some.

Don't make encounters or adventures that can be destroyed by teleport. That doesn't mean using dimensional anchor with every encounter either it means account for and expect your players will teleport. Teleport is a means of travel, and a means of escape/insertion, so which part gives you more trouble?

[zlefin]

use the same tactics and builds they use against them.
if the players are too op, you need to use higher optimization on their foes until things balance out again.

[MisterKaws]

As a rule of thumb, if you have too many problems because of movement/stealth spells, like teleportation, flight, invisibility, and others, you are probably using too many grunts.

If they are too silent, give your mobs some form of detection. If they are too nimble, give them some wings. Heck, you might as well make every single one of your humanoid-type monsters a Were-Argent Spider Etomanothrope, and have them teleport around madly.

[Mighty Physche]

My two big players are a sword sage with some lally for backstory. He is powerful because of his like 16+ attacks with chaos stance. I already needed the chaos stance to be only used on boss fights because his turns alone where taking several minutes. The second is a Druid with lbs in planar Shepard I believe. He can change into almost anything he needs and used his feats for item creation to make what his character lacks strength in. The cleric isn't really that op but my campaign is using recharge magic instead of spells per day which really makes it much harder. I have had success with making mobs of enemies show up with a target in mind where if the ignore mobs they will be drained, but if they ignore boss they could get one shot.

Side note: the complained about not having encounters that hallwnge there actual skills, but then they just teleport, float, or levitate thier way out of it so I stopped bothering. There is much more, but I don't want to over explain. So ask away what else do you guys need to know. Btw thanks for the input so far.

[zlefin]

sounds like you need the enemy to have better pursuit options so it's not so easy to just run away from them if the players don't like the matchup.

have you talked to the players about the fact that they seem to just run away when facing a challenge, and thus your attempts to challenge their skills aren't working?


are all the chars complaining, or is it mostly just the 2 super strong ones?

[Buufreak]

Oh, mate. In cases like this, over explaining is almost impossible.

That said, recharging magic is about as silly as things come from UA. It could be the start of issues, but also not the only thing.

[zlefin]

reading up on recharge magic; hmmm, challenging people using recharge magic is gonna mean challenges where they run a real risk of death, and even TPK. I don't think ther'es a way around that while using recharge magic.

are the players ok with accepting a risk of TPK?

[Calthropstu]

Bring in an assassin. 15th lvl should do it. Give him improved invisibility potion, a potion of fly, a potion of silence.
Have the party look for something in a dungeon with this guy in it. He is alerted to the pc's presence due to a smaller fight... something worthless. Maybe a chimera or sphinx.
They do the "I take 20" thing cuz they are searching for loot. The assassin strikes, but with fast stealth is able to hide.
Describe it like this:
"You find a dagger and pull it out of the sheathe. It looks well made. Make a fortitude save."
Assuming the assassin has pimped out his "I kill you" dc, the pc pulls a dagger out of the sheathe and dies. As they try to figure out what is going on, the assassin gets ready to strike again. They investigate the dagger trying to figure out how it killed their party member suddenly another party member falls.
Now they cast teleport... and fail because the area is under dimensional lock. At this point tje assassin goes into melee with tricked out poison blades... and possibly gets massacred possibly tpk's the rest of the party.
They wanted a challenge, give em this.

[Hackulator]

What the heck is Chaos Stance, I can't even find it in the ToB.

[Rynjin]

My two big players are a sword sage with some lally for backstory. He is powerful because of his like 16+ attacks with chaos stance. I already needed the chaos stance to be only used on boss fights because his turns alone where taking several minutes.

Can you quote me the text for this "Chaos Stance" Maneuver? I can't find any "Chaos Stance" in Tome of Battle resources. Closest I can find is Aura of Chaos, which doesn't grant extra attacks.



Side note: the complained about not having encounters that hallwnge there actual skills, but then they just teleport, float, or levitate thier way out of it so I stopped bothering. There is much more, but I don't want to over explain. So ask away what else do you guys need to know. Btw thanks for the input so far.

There are skills besides movement skills, you know. By 14th level those kinds of things SHOULD be trivial. The bridge over a chasm being out is a challenge for 5th level characters, not 14th. Or 10th for that matter.

Test Knowledges, Perception vs ambushes and traps, maybe make Appraise or something useful every now and then.

[Mighty Physche]

Sorry what is tkp? My players are never afraid of combat they destroy everything their cr and like 5 higher effortlessly. Everyone was complaining not just 2 power houses.

1 ave ranged rogue
2 ave cleric
3 gun mage (annoying)
4 Druid (op)
5 sword-sage (op)
1) rogue not bad, I feel sorry for him because most the stuff they are fighting is immune to crits. Rogue joined well into campaign.

2) cleric is super strong because recharge magic every turn he can heal some way. Also undead are wrecked because we deal dmg not turn checks to speed up game.

3) Gun mage is annoying because of mansion spell. Cool down is 24 hours and it stays active for 28... with recharge and no pressure any encounter they can simply cast mansion heal to full, change spells, destroy encounter. I've told them that annoys me because there is nothing they can't prepare for without me cheesing the rules.

4) Druid plays char correctly and role plays well. His char is a master of all trades pretty much. So he is good at everything except ref saves and acid dmg. He doesn't bother me that much because he uses his op wisely.

5) swordsage likes rule mongering occasionally and it takes weeks to get him to agree to nerf. He is also my closest friend of the group. Knows how to play and knows/utilizes loop holes regularly. For example he was caught in an anti magic prison. Just so happens seordsage teleport works in field anyways and he instantly escapes. Sigh, obstruction of vision used to work until he got a blind fight ability.

[Bakkan]

Agreed that we need to know what this "Chaos Stance" is.

Another potential issue, and one that isn't obvious at first, is that encounters and adventures have to be qualitatively different at higher levels than at lower ones. At level 5, you can pop an ogre in front of the party and their choices will be to fight or die. At level 14, survival is a solved problem. The party can escape catastrophe by teleporting or plane shifting away and can make themselves invulnerable in other ways.

Encounters at high level shouldn't be "defeat this encounter or die," it should be "defeat this encounter or fail." Failure, in this case, should be worse than death: the loss of a family member's soul to a fiend, the literal, physical destruction of a party member's home country, the success of an incompatible ideology in the war currently raging, or the release of an elder evil, for instance. The party has no reason to fight if they don't feel the cause is important. Furthermore, simply defeating an enemy shouldn't be enough to solve major encounters. After killing the pit fiend on top of the volcano, the party still has to figure out how to prevent it from erupting and destroying Totally-not-Pompeii.

EDIT: What is "mansion spell"?

[Jay R]

A. Build enemies the same way the players are built. For instance, the swordsage with 16+ attacks needs to face somebody with 16+ attacks.

B. Ignore CR. That is only useful for average parties, and often not then.

C. The occasional magic-dead zone can prevent many over-powered options.

[Bohandas]

Increase encounter cr
use monsters with less treasure

[Mighty Physche]

Maybe it's not chaos stance I can't remember the name but it lets you reroll every dice that is maximum so when you roll 3d6 and you get a 2,6,6 you reroll the 6's and add them to you precious total. Now I roll a 3,6 so I get to do it once more and I roll a 2. The total dmg is 25.

[Mighty Physche]

Increase encounter cr
use monsters with less treasure

My players are already broke pretty much all the time. And I have increase cr to five cr 17 while they were still 14. The completely destroyed the enemy. Without taking casualties. Their gear is nearly worthless. The builds they chose are just crazy strong.

[Mighty Physche]

What is "mansion spell"?

Mage's magnificent mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm)

And you were right it is aura of chaos. Which looks like a crusader only skill I may have to see why he has that.

[Merellis]

Maybe it's not chaos stance I can't remember the name but it lets you reroll every dice that is maximum so when you roll 3d6 and you get a 2,6,6 you reroll the 6's and add them to you precious total. Now I roll a 3,6 so I get to do it once more and I roll a 2. The total dmg is 25.

Aura of chaos is the one that let's you add on more damage as you roll max damage, but where's he getting the 16 attacks from at level 14?

[TheIronGolem]

1) rogue not bad, I feel sorry for him because most the stuff they are fighting is immune to crits. Rogue joined well into campaign.
That ball is in your court. Use fewer crit-proof creatures, or give the rogue a way to get sneak attacks on crit-proof creatures.


3) Gun mage is annoying because of mansion spell. Cool down is 24 hours and it stays active for 28... with recharge and no pressure any encounter they can simply cast mansion heal to full, change spells, destroy encounter. I've told them that annoys me because there is nothing they can't prepare for without me cheesing the rules.

So...the party is jumping into their Magnificent Mansion at the first sign of trouble, healing/buffing up, and then coming out to fight from a state of total freshness? Okay, why wouldn't the bad guys start taking advantage of the sudden timeout to do their own buffing and/or set up a trap or ambush for when the party must eventually leave the Mansion?

Or, as others have noted, the baddies can just get on with what they were doing, having effectively defeated the party by forcing them to go hide in their magic house.


5) swordsage likes rule mongering occasionally and it takes weeks to get him to agree to nerf. He is also my closest friend of the group. Knows how to play and knows/utilizes loop holes regularly. For example he was caught in an anti magic prison. Just so happens seordsage teleport works in field anyways and he instantly escapes. Sigh, obstruction of vision used to work until he got a blind fight ability.
You know, it's perfectly reasonable to rule that some maneuvers are Supernatural abilities and thus don't work in an antimagic field. I'm not sure whether ToB actually designates such maneuvers, but then that book is notorious for its poor editing.

EDIT: I, too, am curious how this guy is getting 16 attacks.

[Calthropstu]

You know mages mansion can be dispelled right?

[Bebbit]

Mage's magnificent mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm)

And you were right it is aura of chaos. Which looks like a crusader only skill I may have to see why he has that.

If they cast that during encounters, just have the enemies move on if they stay in there for any period of time. Sure it ends the encounter, but they also don't get anything out of it since they just skipped it.
Then since they spent so much time in there, have it so the bad guys accomplished whatever they were trying to do while the PCs wasted time. Whether that's killing a hostage/town, carrying out their endgame, whatever. Make it so the party fails because they decided to stop and rest in the middle of a fight.

[Merellis]

Actually, how is this swordsage getting Aura of Chaos? That's a devoted spirit stance that needs two other devoted spirit manuevers and swordsage's don't get access to that discipline.

I mean, I guess he could use martial study twice and then martial stance, but that's a good three feats just to pick up Aura of Chaos. Which then still leaves me wondering how he has 16 attacks a round.

[Bebbit]

Sounds like they either don't understand how some things work, or they're deliberately trying to pull some stuff over on you.

Definitely ask to see their character sheets and look for anything wonky. Red flag there if they protest.

[zlefin]

Sorry what is tkp? My players are never afraid of combat they destroy everything their cr and like 5 higher effortlessly. Everyone was complaining not just 2 power houses.

1 ave ranged rogue
2 ave cleric
3 gun mage (annoying)
4 Druid (op)
5 sword-sage (op)
1) rogue not bad, I feel sorry for him because most the stuff they are fighting is immune to crits. Rogue joined well into campaign.

2) cleric is super strong because recharge magic every turn he can heal some way. Also undead are wrecked because we deal dmg not turn checks to speed up game.

3) Gun mage is annoying because of mansion spell. Cool down is 24 hours and it stays active for 28... with recharge and no pressure any encounter they can simply cast mansion heal to full, change spells, destroy encounter. I've told them that annoys me because there is nothing they can't prepare for without me cheesing the rules.

4) Druid plays char correctly and role plays well. His char is a master of all trades pretty much. So he is good at everything except ref saves and acid dmg. He doesn't bother me that much because he uses his op wisely.

5) swordsage likes rule mongering occasionally and it takes weeks to get him to agree to nerf. He is also my closest friend of the group. Knows how to play and knows/utilizes loop holes regularly. For example he was caught in an anti magic prison. Just so happens seordsage teleport works in field anyways and he instantly escapes. Sigh, obstruction of vision used to work until he got a blind fight ability.

tpk = total party kill. the entire party is wiped out.
something strong enough to deal with a recharge magic party is likely strong enough to threaten a total party kill.
I wouldn't want to risk a TPK without making sure the players are ok with facing foes strong enough to do that.


are you sure you're playing the enemies smart enough? sometimes the problem is that enemies aren't playing tactically enough; using poor tactics can make them a lot weaker.
Are the enemies using lots of ways to deal with magic? are the enemies with magic making good use of their spells?
Are the monsters you're using mostly taken from the Monster manuals as is, or are oyu adding hd/class levels, and optimizing their equipment? are they facing people with PC class levels?

can you tell us about some of the specific encounters that are cr 20 that they beat?

[Dagroth]

Get 2 books...

The Draconomicon and Dragon Magic.

Study those books... especially Draconomicon.

You'll be ready to bring the pain that is a powerful Dragon.

For added fun, give your Dragon some Scout levels... extra damage on flyby attacks? Yes please!

For even more added fun, make it a Steel Dragon... those guys are way under CR'ed!

[Grod_The_Giant]

3 gun mage (annoying)
What book is this from?


5) swordsage likes rule mongering occasionally and it takes weeks to get him to agree to nerf. He is also my closest friend of the group. Knows how to play and knows/utilizes loop holes regularly. For example he was caught in an anti magic prison. Just so happens seordsage teleport works in field anyways and he instantly escapes. Sigh, obstruction of vision used to work until he got a blind fight ability.
Shadow Blink/Jaunt/Stride require not just Line of Sight, but Line of Effect. I'm not sure Blindsense (assuming he's using Hearing the Air to get that) gives LoS, given that people still have total concealment from you, but LoE can be broken be just not having windows.

Honestly, it sounds like you have two problems: one adventure-design problem, and one player-problem (the Swordsage).

The former is on you. High level D&D gets weird in that casters acquire a lot of ways to control the flow of an adventure-- things like Teleport and Plane Shift that enable them to bypass entire encounters and adventures they don't feel like participating in, safe havens like Mage's Mansion and Rope Trick that let them rest safely, divinations like Commune and Contact Other Plane that let them probe a situation from a position of safety, and more.

In your specific case, it sounds like the players are using their spells to force 15-minute workdays and nova encounters-- retreat, rest, buff up, re-enter, and repeat. Recharge Magic is going to make it all worse, of course, because attrition becomes a lot harder, but still... you need some doom clocks. You need some reasons why "retreat and come back all buffed" won't work. Maybe the ritual starts in an hour; maybe the bad guy has hostages, maybe the undead are continually multiplying. Lots of things you can do, but everything boils down to this: you have to make "retreat" a lose condition. That's the only reliable way to force high-level characters to stand and fight if they don't want to.

The latter is on your friend. I know that all we've heard is "16 attacks" and "Aura of Chaos," both of which are plausible (if unlikely), but... it sounds like they might be making some rules mistakes. (Or, worst case, outright cheating) Refresh your memory of ToB mechanics, then check his sheet carefully.

Also, you should either let the Rogue take the Penetrating Strike ACF (deal half damage to things immune to sneak attack) or drop/steer them towards either some Wands of Grave Strike, Vine Strike, and whatever the third spell that lets you sneak attack constructs is, or some of the weapon crystals from the Magic Item Compendium that do the same things. That should help considerably. A Ring of Blinking does too.

[Mighty Physche]

I would have to look at his sheet. But he has 2 weapons with bab 15 that gives him 7 to start them haste then a cleric spell that allows extra melee attack. He showed me before and it checks out. It includes a strike, so he can't do it all the time, but he can do it like every three or so rounds dealing like 120+ dmg.

[Calthropstu]

I saw 9 attacks there, not 16.

[TheIronGolem]

I'm getting much better at handelinf there shenanigans, but my players are ave lv 14 and have at best +3 weapons. However they are completely destroying encounters of cr 20 in like 2 rounds without takes by dmg. It is my fault for giving them free reign of any book, but I don't want to just "take it back." Any ideas for how to put them in their place without just straight murdering them. Right now my problems are like 4 players can teleport and 2 of those guys are nearly unkillable, not because they are strong but the rest of the party relies on them so much if they die so does everyone else. I don't just want to cheese it though. Any thoughts?


I would have to look at his sheet. But he has 2 weapons with bab 15 that gives him 7 to start them haste then a cleric spell that allows extra melee attack. He showed me before and it checks out. It includes a strike, so he can't do it all the time, but he can do it like every three or so rounds dealing like 120+ dmg.

How? A full-BAB class would have only +14 BAB at level 14, and Swordsage is a 3/4 BAB class (it doesn't get +14 BAB until level 19)

[Bebbit]

I would have to look at his sheet. But he has 2 weapons with bab 15 that gives him 7 to start them haste then a cleric spell that allows extra melee attack. He showed me before and it checks out. It includes a strike, so he can't do it all the time, but he can do it like every three or so rounds dealing like 120+ dmg.

At level 14 a Swordsage has +10/+5 BAB. With two weapons that would bring him to 4 attacks. With Haste that brings it to 6 attacks. Dancing Mongoose brings it to 8 attacks.

What Cleric spell?

[Hackulator]

At level 14 a Swordsage has +10/+5 BAB. With two weapons that would bring him to 4 attacks. With Haste that brings it to 6 attacks. Dancing Mongoose brings it to 8 attacks.

What Cleric spell?

The cleric spell is probably Divine Power, which DOES NOT stack with haste. Also as stated above, his BAB should be nowhere near 15.

Also haste gives you a single extra attack, which you may make with any weapon yo are holding, it does not give you 2 attacks if you are dual wielding.

[MisterKaws]

Sorry what is tkp? My players are never afraid of combat they destroy everything their cr and like 5 higher effortlessly. Everyone was complaining not just 2 power houses.


Total Party Kill.



1) rogue not bad, I feel sorry for him because most the stuff they are fighting is immune to crits. Rogue joined well into campaign.

There are Ranger spells to enable criticals against nearly every single crit-immune creature out there. Put that Use Magic Device to good use.



2) cleric is super strong because recharge magic every turn he can heal some way.

Alternate magic systems do that to balance.



Also undead are wrecked because we deal dmg not turn checks to speed up game.

Alternate ability systems do that to balance.



3) Gun mage is annoying because of mansion spell. Cool down is 24 hours and it stays active for 28... with recharge and no pressure any encounter they can simply cast mansion heal to full, change spells, destroy encounter. I've told them that annoys me because there is nothing they can't prepare for without me cheesing the rules.

Dispel Magic exists for a reason.



4) Druid plays char correctly and role plays well. His char is a master of all trades pretty much. So he is good at everything except ref saves and acid dmg. He doesn't bother me that much because he uses his op wisely.

Good, because Planar Shepherds are the most ridiculous thing you can pull of without any optimization.



5) swordsage likes rule mongering occasionally and it takes weeks to get him to agree to nerf. He is also my closest friend of the group. Knows how to play and knows/utilizes loop holes regularly.

Well, talk to him. You're all grown-ups. If his attitude is the problem, you either fix that, or deal with it in some way. Otherwise, either of you will have to bail.



For example he was caught in an anti magic prison. Just so happens seordsage teleport works in field anyways and he instantly escapes.


No, it doesn't. All of the Swordsage's teleports have Supernatural plastered on their descriptions.



Sigh, obstruction of vision used to work until he got a blind fight ability.


Blind Sense and Blind Sight don't work if you block line of effect, so just get some walls.

[Goaty14]

How? A full-BAB class would have only +14 BAB at level 14, and Swordsage is a 3/4 BAB class (it doesn't get +14 BAB until level 19)

Maybe he (the player) is misreading BaB, at every 6th BaB, you get an extra +1 attack, and that only stacks through class levels, but other things, such as Str bonuses, can increase your BaB. So a 6th level fighter with Strength 24 (+7) has BaB +13/+8 with melee, NOT +13/+8/+3. Maybe that is being overlooked.

As everybody else is saying, make retreat not an option, give them an entrance into a dungeon, pelt them with easy encounters, and then a Boss with sorcerer class levels. Once they retreat into their fortress of solitude, Dispel it.

[Sam K]

If he uses raging moongoose, that would give him 2 extra attacks with each weapon. That would bring it to 13 for 1 round at least, if he has 9 already.

But honestly, you've allowed the campaign to go out of control a bit. You allowed your players to build things you don't know how to challenge. Kudos to you for letting your players build what they want, but honestly:

It might be better to wrap up the current campaign and impose some restrictions on the next one. High level D&D is pretty hard to balance as it is, if you don't really know what you're balancing for it gets even harder. If you don't want to just close the book on the campaign, you can just talk to your players about scaling up the difficulty and letting them see how long they can keep beating it. Then throw in the Baalors, the Pit Fiends and the ancient dragons: your players seem to enjoy a really tough fight, so it might be a cool way for them to go out in a blaze of glory. Or alternatively, once they beat all the baddies you can come up with, they win! Beer and groupies are had by all, and then they start over, with some restrictions.

As a side note, whenever I'm planning to build something fairly powerful (that is, every time I play!), I sit down with my DM and lay out my build, the abilities, and the major impacts I can see those having on the game. If I'm going to be throwing out 16 attacks at level 14, my DM knows that at level 1. And if it turns out my DM thinks that's OP and wants to nerf something, I know it beforehand, so I can decide if I still want to go with that build even after the nerfs.

Of course, I know not everyone plans out their build in advance, but you don't just accidentally end up in an aura of chaos swordsage build putting out over 10 attacks :)

[Bebbit]

The cleric spell is probably Divine Power, which DOES NOT stack with haste. Also as stated above, his BAB should be nowhere near 15.

Also haste gives you a single extra attack, which you may make with any weapon yo are holding, it does not give you 2 attacks if you are dual wielding.

That's what I thought. This was the only way I could think of that he might be able to come up with 16 attacks a round (and I didn't even get that high), which goes back to him not understanding the rules/trying to cheat.

[MisterKaws]

Maybe he (the player) is misreading BaB, at every 6th BaB, you get an extra +1 attack, and that only stacks through class levels, but other things, such as Str bonuses, can increase your BaB. So a 6th level fighter with Strength 24 (+7) has BaB +13/+8 with melee, NOT +13/+8/+3. Maybe that is being overlooked.

As everybody else is saying, make retreat not an option, give them an entrance into a dungeon, pelt them with easy encounters, and then a Boss with sorcerer class levels. Once they retreat into their fortress of solitude, Dispel it.

Or if you're feeling evil enough, Living Disjunction. It's a CR 17 monster, so totally valid as a boss for a slightly overstaffed party of ECL 14 characters.

[Bebbit]

If he uses raging moongoose, that would give him 2 extra attacks with each weapon. That would bring it to 13 for 1 round at least, if he has 9 already.


No. It explicitly says:

You make a flurry of deadly attacks. After initiating this boost, you can make one additional attack with each weapon you wield (to a maximum of two extra attacks if you wield two or more weapons). These extra attacks are made at your highest attack bonus for each of your respective weapons. All of these attacks must be directed against the same opponent.

[InvisibleBison]

The cleric spell is probably Divine Power, which DOES NOT stack with haste. Also as stated above, his BAB should be nowhere near 15.

It's almost certainly not divine power, because that is a self-only spell. I suspect it's righteous wrath of the faithful, from the Spell Compendium, which explicitly doesn't stack with haste.

(Also, I'm pretty sure divine power and haste do stack.)

[Hackulator]

It's almost certainly not divine power, because that is a self-only spell. I suspect it's righteous wrath of the faithful, from the Spell Compendium, which explicitly doesn't stack with haste.

(Also, I'm pretty sure divine power and haste do stack.)

yeah sorry i was thinking of PF divine power

[Sam K]

No. It explicitly says:

You make a flurry of deadly attacks. After initiating this boost, you can make one additional attack with each weapon you wield (to a maximum of two extra attacks if you wield two or more weapons). These extra attacks are made at your highest attack bonus for each of your respective weapons. All of these attacks must be directed against the same opponent.

Well, I was thinking of raging moongoose (which gives 4 attacks at most), but I now realise that is a lvl 8 boost, which he wouldn't have yet. Sorry, for some reason thought it was lvl 7.

[DeTess]

So, on the Swordsage, it's very unlikely that he has both aura of Chaos and full Two-weapon fighting progression. The former costs 3 feats, the latter 2 (for 2 bonus attacks in a full round attack), and alltough at level 14 he would have had just enough feats (5, or 6 if he is a human) he also really needs Adaptive style (if he doesn't have that, remind him that recharging 1 maneuver takes a full round action).

Really, I'd check the character sheets of the problematic characters, and have them explain the problematic tricks to you while you've got the books ready to double-check, as that Swordsage in particular sounds like he's doing something wrong.

[Rynjin]

What book is this from?


Shadow Blink/Jaunt/Stride require not just Line of Sight, but Line of Effect. I'm not sure Blindsense (assuming he's using Hearing the Air to get that) gives LoS, given that people still have total concealment from you, but LoE can be broken be just not having windows.

Blindsense doesn't give LoS, though BlindSIGHT would, yeah.

Windows actually DO break Line of Effect. Line of Effect is just anything that would stop a spell, power, or object from going through it. That's why some spells have clauses that let them burst through objects if their damage beats the HP+Hardness, otherwise Lightning Bolt could be stopped by a sheet of paper.

[Calthropstu]

Ways to hit high op groups:
Manual traps. I once killed 3 high op mythic 20/10 PF spell casters with a single disintigrate spell, dropping the room they were in into a pit filled with prismatic spheres.
Dispel magic spam. Kill their items and their buffs. Invisibly and silently.
Sudden invisible strikes. Shock and awe tactics.
Attack while resting. Find where their mansion portal is, dispel it, attack.

[TheIronGolem]

Maybe he (the player) is misreading BaB, at every 6th BaB, you get an extra +1 attack, and that only stacks through class levels, but other things, such as Str bonuses, can increase your BaB. So a 6th level fighter with Strength 24 (+7) has BaB +13/+8 with melee, NOT +13/+8/+3. Maybe that is being overlooked.

That occurred to me too, but if that were the case I would have expected the OP to think his BAB was much higher than +15, because even a very low-op character would likely have a much higher total attack bonus by level 14.


So, on the Swordsage, it's very unlikely that he has both aura of Chaos and full Two-weapon fighting progression. The former costs 3 feats, the latter 2 (for 2 bonus attacks in a full round attack), and alltough at level 14 he would have had just enough feats (5, or 6 if he is a human) he also really needs Adaptive style (if he doesn't have that, remind him that recharging 1 maneuver takes a full round action).

To be fair, he might have Flaws.

[DeTess]

To be fair, he might have Flaws.

Right, of course, I'd forgotten about those (never use them myself). He could have taken Adaptive Style (pretty much required for Swordsage), two-weapon fighting, and the two martial studies to qualify for aura of chaos(which would have to be his 12th level feat) at level 1 if he was human and took two flaws. Still, in this case it would be useful to know what those flaws are for the DM, as they might be a weakness that can be used to balance him.

EDit: @the OP, when did the Swordsage start using aura of Chaos? The earliest he could have gotten it is level 11 if he somehow managed to get a feat at that level. Otherwise it has to have been his 12th level feat. If he got it earlier, than something's definitely fishy.

[Mighty Physche]

Swordsage shenanigans aside. I allow custom builds the amount of attacks isn't an issue I just raise the ac of monster.

We did the math and he is good for this campaign. I just threw a high number out there that is not my problem I use crit failure table anyways and he hits it the most. It's the teleport really. I can't even anti magic it and I can't obscure vision. The only limitation is 100' which is a lot and when he gets air walk cast on him he basically has an insane fly speed. Swift action port move action port using lesser shadow school port and the better one you get later.

[EisenKreutzer]

Swordsage shenanigans aside. I allow custom builds the amount of attacks isn't an issue I just raise the ac of monster.

We did the math and he is good for this campaign. I just threw a high number out there that is not my problem I use crit failure table anyways and he hits it the most. It's the teleport really. I can't even anti magic it and I can't obscure vision. The only limitation is 100' which is a lot and when he gets air walk cast on him he basically has an insane fly speed. Swift action port move action port using lesser shadow school port and the better one you get later.

The teleport is a Supernatural ability, though. It explicitly does not work in an anti-magic field.

[DeTess]

What's the exact blind fight ability the swordsage has? Does it give blindsight or blindsense?

Edit:


The teleport is a Supernatural ability, though. It explicitly does not work in an anti-magic field.

Unfortunately, unless it is noted somewhere that all teleport abilities are supernatural, this one isn't, unless it has been errata'd somewhere.

[Mighty Physche]

So next week they have a huge boss fight. Green Draco-lich with 4 xtra HD and that undead feat that adds cha to hp. He has command of an army of knolls. I am having the dragon use primarily illusion magic with a few high powered spells in the mix. My favorite being telepathy cast at 13 lv throwing 39D6 worth of large dwarvish waraxes seemed like a great trap, because I can only throw em like 10 feet. Any other thoughts for this boss fight?

Ps dracolich is almost done, but I am looking for great feats to make him that much better.

[TheIronGolem]

Swordsage shenanigans aside. I allow custom builds the amount of attacks isn't an issue I just raise the ac of monster.
That's a poor solution. It just encourages that one player to amp things up while making things harder for the players who aren't engaging in shenanigans.


We did the math and he is good for this campaign.
You'll have to forgive us for not taking your word on that. With respect, it's increasingly clear that you either have a shaky grasp on the rules and/or you're overloading your campaign with houserules and optional rulesets that you don't fully understand and whose implications you haven't thought through. It's an easy mistake that lots of us make (especially early in our DM'ing careers) but the further you get from the game as written the less able we are to help you as we're no longer talking about the same game.


I just threw a high number out there that is not my problem I use crit failure table anyways and he hits it the most.
Fumble tables are also a poor solution. They're nonsensical in that (as you've seen) the better you are at fighting the more often you fumble, they heavily favor casters (who don't need the help), and turning a mighty warrior into a butterfingered clown is a joke that gets old pretty damn quick.


It's the teleport really. I can't even anti magic it and I can't obscure vision.
Can too. If you want those maneuvers to be [Su], it's perfectly reasonable to houserule that they are. They were probably meant to be in the first place.


The only limitation is 100' which is a lot and when he gets air walk cast on him he basically has an insane fly speed. Swift action port move action port using lesser shadow school port and the better one you get later.
So you have an extremely mobile character. You can challenge that. Bring in some mobile enemies of your own. More enemies with ranged attacks. More spread-out enemies that require the character to zip around taking out key targets while the rest of the party engages other threats. Use enemies who've heard of the party and know their powers (at 14th level they've presumably made a name for themselves) so they take precautions like Dimensional Anchor.

[Kaleph]

I guess it's not needed to houserule that the teleportation maneuvre is Su, since it's most likely shadow hand, and all shadow hand maneuvres are Su.

[lord_khaine]

I guess it's not needed to houserule that the teleportation maneuvre is Su, since it's most likely shadow hand, and all shadow hand maneuvres are Su.

One of the most overlooked details of ToB :smallsigh:

[DeTess]

I guess it's not needed to houserule that the teleportation maneuvre is Su, since it's most likely shadow hand, and all shadow hand maneuvres are Su.

It is needed, actually. AFAIK, there isn't a line in ToB saying "all shadow hand maneuvers are SU". A lot of maneuvers are explicitly called out as being supernatural, but Shadow Jaunt (and therefore its more powerful counterparts) are not listed as supernatural. It would be a very reasonable houserule in my opinion, but it would be a houserule.

Edit: Also, depending on the interpretation, the "Dimensional Anchor" spell could stop shadow jaunt, though using this will likely start a rules debate, as this one is open to interpretation (basically, the spells says it stops all extradimensional travel, which this could qualify as).

[ATHATH]

Your players don't use stuff from Dandwiki, do they? There's a ton of unmarked homebrew stuff in there that some players bring to tables thinking that it's/they're official.

[Kaleph]

It is needed, actually. AFAIK, there isn't a line in ToB saying "all shadow hand maneuvers are SU". A lot of maneuvers are explicitly called out as being supernatural, but Shadow Jaunt (and therefore its more powerful counterparts) are not listed as supernatural. It would be a very reasonable houserule in my opinion, but it would be a houserule.

Edit: Also, depending on the interpretation, the "Dimensional Anchor" spell could stop shadow jaunt, though using this will likely start a rules debate, as this one is open to interpretation (basically, the spells says it stops all extradimensional travel, which this could qualify as).

You're right - the text says "some shadow hand maneuvres are supernatural", not all of them. Shadow hand has the [teleportation] descriptor (which shouldn't have the effect of making it Su), but no other hint about its nature.

[Mighty Physche]

Your players don't use stuff from Dandwiki, do they? There's a ton of unmarked homebrew stuff in there that some players bring to tables thinking that it's/they're official.

I do not allow dnd wiki. Any changes are discussed with me first. I allowed any thing with a recognized material including dragon magazine, but no homebrew.

[DarkSoul]

Extraordinary or Supernatural Abilities: Martial maneuvers and stances are never spells or spell-like abilities. Unless the description of the specific maneuver or stance says otherwise, treat it as an extraordinary ability. Thus, these abilities work just fine in an antimagic field or a dead magic zone. A maneuver or stance can’t be dispelled or counterspelled, and initiating one does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

If a maneuver is overtly magical or otherwise uses a supernatural power source, it is noted as a supernatural ability in its description. In this case, the maneuver obeys all the standard rules for supernatural abilities.Unless the maneuver says it's supernatural, it's extraordinary. Compare Shadow Jaunt to the maneuvers preceding and following it.

[Elkad]

Anticipate Teleportation. Preferably Greater.

Someone teleports (and has a landing point within the radius), they get to leave the room until 1 (or 3 with Greater) rounds passes. Don't tell them why. Just say "Joe, your teleport went wrong. You don't land there. We'll get to you in a bit." Better yet, ask him "Which square did you say you wanted to land in? You chose poorly." That way they think it was a trapped square.

If the party doesn't know what happened, another one might even try to teleport. Now you get to gang up on whoever is left. And if there is time, then the monsters run over and surround the square where the teleporting guy is going to land and ready actions to hit him as soon as he appears.

If they rope trick out (including mansion) mid-dungeon and anybody saw them or can detect the entrance, the whole dungeon should be standing there waiting for them when they come out. Or better yet, wait 6 hours till most of the party is sleeping (probably with their armor off and their buffs down), buff up your monsters, and then Dispel the Mansion.

Are you throwing casters with Greater Dispel Magic against them? How about a badguy that's basically a mirror of the Swordsage? After all, if it's legal for him, it's legal for the monsters.


Basically you need to be matching your party. Every trick they use you can use.

[Mighty Physche]

thanks all I appreciate the insight.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I would like to see you post their character sheets. It sounds like the playground would find ten things wrong with them, and then go on to give fifty optimization tips. :smallbiggrin:

[EldritchWeaver]

Anticipate Teleportation. Preferably Greater.

Someone teleports (and has a landing point within the radius), they get to leave the room until 1 (or 3 with Greater) rounds passes. Don't tell them why. Just say "Joe, your teleport went wrong. You don't land there. We'll get to you in a bit." Better yet, ask him "Which square did you say you wanted to land in? You chose poorly." That way they think it was a trapped square.

If the party doesn't know what happened, another one might even try to teleport. Now you get to gang up on whoever is left. And if there is time, then the monsters run over and surround the square where the teleporting guy is going to land and ready actions to hit him as soon as he appears.

If they rope trick out (including mansion) mid-dungeon and anybody saw them or can detect the entrance, the whole dungeon should be standing there waiting for them when they come out. Or better yet, wait 6 hours till most of the party is sleeping (probably with their armor off and their buffs down), buff up your monsters, and then Dispel the Mansion.

Are you throwing casters with Greater Dispel Magic against them? How about a badguy that's basically a mirror of the Swordsage? After all, if it's legal for him, it's legal for the monsters.


Basically you need to be matching your party. Every trick they use you can use.

Nice ideas, but if you are feeling particularly mean, trap the party in an acid filled vat with an anti-magic field active and wait until they hack themselves out of the container. That should weaken them all in one-way or another.