How OP is Ur-Priest?

[danielxcutter]

I've heard so and I can roughly guess why, but pretend I haven't and need a detailed explaination.

Actually I need a detailed explaination anyways so please just do.

[mastermisha1]

As far as i can tell its the accelerated spell progression coupled with things like Mystic Theurge. Also the prerequisites for Ur-Priest aren't too hard to achieve. On top of all that it looks like some fun can be had with the steal spell like ability of the class.

[Kaleph]

It provides access to all cleric spells (and spell levels), plus rebuke undeads, in less than 10 levels - so it' used in builds with double progression, or whenever fast access to lev. 9 spells is requested.

[The_Jette]

Just think, you can make a simple build that guarantees that you meet the prereq's by level 5, with no cheese:
Human 1 Monk
2-5 Wizard
6 Ur-Priest
7 Ur-Priest
8-15 Mystic Theurge
16-20 Wizard

You end up with a 8th level Wizard spells and 9th level Divine (Ur-Priest) spells. That's pretty strong. And, there are ways of getting 9th level Wizard spells.

[Kaleph]

I think your build gets also 9th level wizard spells, right?

[Telonius]

A lot of Ur-Priest levels aren't necessarily OP. A few levels of Ur-Priest, is where you have to be concerned. The main draw of the PrC is that it has its own progression, much like Sublime Chord. You would just need a single level of it, plus a theurge-like class, to really pump up your spellcasting. Because of that, Ur-Priest1 is instrumental in most "triple 9" builds I've seen. Ur-Priest2 grants Rebuke Undead, and all of the Divine Metamagic cheese that comes with it. After that, the abilities aren't that terrific; 2 levels is usually all you'll want.

[The_Jette]

I think your build gets also 9th level wizard spells, right?

Nah, only gets CL 16 for the Wizard. If I didn't use Monk to get the initial Saving Throw requirements for Ur-Priest, it would go higher.

[Florian]

I've heard so and I can roughly guess why, but pretend I haven't and need a detailed explaination.

Actually I need a detailed explaination anyways so please just do.

It´s a Cleric compressed into a 10 level PrC. Theurge-type PrC should at max give a 14/15 build, but using Ur allows for 20/20, which is pretty broken.

[Kaleph]

Nah, only gets CL 16 for the Wizard. If I didn't use Monk to get the initial Saving Throw requirements for Ur-Priest, it would go higher.

But you lose only 3 wizard levels, or?
1 Monk
6 Ur-priest
7 Ur-priest

Or am I overlooking something?

[Eldariel]

It gets 9th spells too early. That's nuts. 9s completely break everything asunder way more so than any other paradigm shift in the game. Needing only 9 levels in casting classes isn't exactly helping: you can jam the build full of class features to boot.

[The_Jette]

It gets 9th spells too early. That's nuts. 9s completely break everything asunder way more so than any other paradigm shift in the game. Needing only 9 levels in casting classes isn't exactly helping: you can jam the build full of class features to boot.

As embarrassed as I am to admit this, I did my maths wrong. You are correct. It's a 9/9 spell level progression.

[Fouredged Sword]

It would not be bad if you could only enter it at level 11 at the earliest. As is, you can be throwing 9th level spells around at level 13. It is not as bad as beholder mage or illithid savant, but it is up there on the unbalanced award.

[The_Jette]

It would not be bad if you could only enter it at level 11 at the earliest. As is, you can be throwing 9th level spells around at level 13. It is not as bad as beholder mage or illithid savant, but it is up there on the unbalanced award.

Due to skill rank requirements, I'm pretty sure the earliest you can get into the class is your 6th character level, which would make your earliest access to 9th level spells at level 14, not 13. But, that's not exactly a huge difference.

[AvatarVecna]

1) Take the casting of one of the more powerful casting classes in the game, and squeeze it into 10 levels. It gets 6th lvl spells when the cleric would as well, and gets 7th/8th/9th lvl spells earlier than the cleric does (particularly 9th lvl spells, which come online 3 levels early).

2) It combines pathetically easily with PrCs that advance divine casting, particularly theurge PrCs. Monk 1/Wizard 4/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8 is a lvl 15 build with 12th lvl wizard casting,10th lvl Ur-Priest casting, and Rebuke Undead attempts that can power Divine Metamagic. At this point, throw on a good Wizard full progression PrC (such as Incantatrix for more metamagic BS), and your 20th lvl build will have 10th lvl Ur-Priest casting and 17th lvl Wizard casting.

3) It takes away the one giant fluff limitation that made it easy for DMs to tell clerics "maybe do something else": you are a cleric who steals power from the gods, rather than being gifted power by a deity for your devotion. You are not beholden to the gods any more than the average mortal - less, in fact.

[J-H]

That said, it has very few spells per day. I do not consider it OP.

[Eldariel]

That said, it has very few spells per day. I do not consider it OP.

Just one casting of Gate can do more than a normal level 14 party. Same with e.g. Shapechange (and ways to add spells to your list) that you can conveniently persist and thus do all-day nonsense. Miracle is nuts and so are plenty of others. Plus there are lots of ways to get bonus daily slots, starting from high ability score.

[Doc_Maynot]

Just to add in, the class is basically designed to be used in a theurge build.



To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric don't count.)

[Telonius]

Did that about cover it, OP?

[Waker]

Even if you don't go Theurge, the fast spell progression means they play very well with other PrCs as well. Just take one or two levels before going with another class that gives better class features, especially PrCs that lose caster levels since you need so much less than others.

[RoboEmperor]

Correct me if I'm wrong but...
"The character must be trained by another ur-priest."

Is kind of a really, really powerful restriction. I don't see how you can find an ur-priest reliably at the level you want to.

[AvatarVecna]

Correct me if I'm wrong but...
"The character must be trained by another ur-priest."

Is kind of a really, really powerful restriction. I don't see how you can find an ur-priest reliably at the level you want to.

Without getting too much into real-world political discussion, I don't think it would be that hard for you to find an ******* atheist with divine spellcasting showing off that he doesn't need no stinkin' religion to cast spells. Not dissing atheists in general, to be clear, but the atheist you're looking for is required to be Evil, so he's probably not exactly keeping it to himself.

EDIT: I mean, getting him to teach you might be difficult, depending on where you are in relation to each other and whether your respective flavors of Evil can grok together, but as long as one exists somewhere on the same plane, he's probably out there making a really bad reputation for himself.

[danielxcutter]

Did that about cover it, OP?

Um... yeah, more or less. I'm still open to hear more, but what I've heard is bad enough.

[DarkSoul]

Keep in mind that it also first appeared in the Book of Vile Darkness, where "don't show this book to your players" appears in the introduction of the book. Yes, it also appears in Complete Divine, but its original appearance and (arguably, I suppose) intent were as something to challenge PCs with. Personally, I still view it that way.

[danielxcutter]

Keep in mind that it also first appeared in the Book of Vile Darkness, where "don't show this book to your players" appears in the introduction of the book. Yes, it also appears in Complete Divine, but its original appearance and (arguably, I suppose) intent were as something to challenge PCs with. Personally, I still view it that way.

Fair point, I suppose.

Slightly off-topic, there's an Bard/Rogue/Ur-Priest villain in Elder Evils. I'm fairly sure she's one of the most optimal/powerful ones - though it's not too hard considering that one of them is a single classed monk - and the only others who could compare are also casters.

So yeah, it's still powerful even in the hands of WotC. That should mean something.

[RoboEmperor]

Without getting too much into real-world political discussion, I don't think it would be that hard for you to find an ******* atheist with divine spellcasting showing off that he doesn't need no stinkin' religion to cast spells. Not dissing atheists in general, to be clear, but the atheist you're looking for is required to be Evil, so he's probably not exactly keeping it to himself.

EDIT: I mean, getting him to teach you might be difficult, depending on where you are in relation to each other and whether your respective flavors of Evil can grok together, but as long as one exists somewhere on the same plane, he's probably out there making a really bad reputation for himself.

The way I see it is...

Evil = Out for himself.
Evil = Keep anything related to power to himself (knowledge, magical power, artifacts, etc.)
Evil = Secretive cult/organization instead of brazenly out in the open in fear of justice enforcers, especially for spellcasters but not so much for tyrant mundanes.
Evil = Kill you before he helps you.

I don't know about ur-priests specifically, but if I were to play an evil spellcaster researching divine magic to harness its power for myself without relying on deities, I'd keep it as secretive as possible to avoid clerics and paladins hunting me down, because what Ur-Priests are doing is literally unholy, and may even offend evil clerics.

So first you gotta find one, and then like you said, get him to train you when he is higher level/stronger than you and is probably more preoccupied with getting stronger than help some stranger. And you gotta do it all at level 5, with 4 levels of wizard so only level 2 spells.

Unless your character's backstory is that his father is an ur-priest, I really don't see it happening. Your character and the Ur-priest must either have their goals aligned, character becomes an apprentice meaning he really can't adventure, and earn the evil ur-priest's trust.

[danielxcutter]

The way I see it is...

Evil = Out for himself.
Evil = Keep anything related to power to himself (knowledge, magical power, artifacts, etc.)
Evil = Secretive cult/organization instead of brazenly out in the open in fear of justice enforcers, especially for spellcasters but not so much for tyrant mundanes.
Evil = Kill you before he helps you.

I don't know about ur-priests specifically, but if I were to play an evil spellcaster researching divine magic to harness its power for myself without relying on deities, I'd keep it as secretive as possible to avoid clerics and paladins hunting me down, because what Ur-Priests are doing is literally unholy, and may even offend evil clerics.

So first you gotta find one, and then like you said, get him to train you when he is higher level/stronger than you and is probably more preoccupied with getting stronger than help some stranger. And you gotta do it all at level 5, with 4 levels of wizard so only level 2 spells.

Unless your character's backstory is that his father is an ur-priest, I really don't see it happening.

It depends a lot on the person. Is the one teaching you a misguided or vengeful person who will gladly join forces with you? Or is he greedy or wants to keep the secret to himself? Or does he just have no interest in helping you, but doesn't really have anything to gain from shanking you?

Evil has infinite forms, and as many names.

[RoboEmperor]

It depends a lot on the person. Is the one teaching you a misguided or vengeful person who will gladly join forces with you? Or is he greedy or wants to keep the secret to himself? Or does he just have no interest in helping you, but doesn't really have anything to gain from shanking you?

Evil has infinite forms, and as many names.

Yeah, so you're putting all of your eggs in the basket where the world you are in has an Ur-Priest nearby with a personality and form of evil that would let your character find him and get training from him. It could happen, but I wouldn't bet my entire character build on it, because unless the DM goes out of your way to ensure you can get the Ur-Priest connection at level 5, I just think it's too unreliable/out of your control. Similar reason why I don't use builds that rely 100% on the Otyugh hole.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, so you're putting all of your eggs in the basket where the world you are in has an Ur-Priest nearby with a personality and form of evil that would let your character find him and get training from him. It could happen, but I wouldn't bet my entire character build on it, because unless the DM goes out of your way to ensure you can get the Ur-Priest connection at level 5, I just think it's too unreliable/out of your control. Similar reason why I don't use builds that rely 100% on the Otyugh hole.

I suppose it's very unlikely if you're starting without levels in it, true. I meant that it's possible to write it into your backstory, or if you talked about it beforehand with your DM. Provided your DM allows it of course, but you get the idea.

[Gruftzwerg]

Unless your character's backstory is that his father is an ur-priest, I really don't see it happening. Your character and the Ur-priest must either have their goals aligned, character becomes an apprentice meaning he really can't adventure, and earn the evil ur-priest's trust.

Imho, since it is not mentioned when you need to be trained (e.g. background or just before entering the PRC at lvl 5?), you can always weave it into your background story. Just because you got trained (learned the training methods) doesn't mean you mastered em: you still need to meet the requirements and gain XP to master the training & tap into Ur-Priests power.
Sure, the story needs to make some kind of sense (as always withe background stories), but that ain't a big deal. It could be someone in your family. Or someone who has used you in his plans and later thought you could be a good disciple of evil as well. You could even assume a non friendly relationship like slavery where you just learn via seeing/experiencing his powers over some time until you escape/he dies/whatsoever. Just be creative :)

[Florian]

The way I see it is...

Also: setting. Conceptually, the function of the Ur-Priest is pretty much tied to how divinity and divine magic work in a given setting.

[Gruftzwerg]

Also: setting. Conceptually, the function of the Ur-Priest is pretty much tied to how divinity and divine magic work in a given setting.

yeah. e.g. Forgotten Realms Faerun, where you are doomed as Ur-Priest and it may be a big secret, while in Ravenloft they may even be more common & accepted than anywhere else imho.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In general, though, fluff requirements can't balance bad mechanics. In this case, for instance, it's either a ban (no Ur-priests to train you, no PrC), a side quest (which sucks up game time and could irritate other players by putting the spotlight all on the one person), or a non-issue. Grod's Law, essentially.

[Quertus]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought to put "Trained by UrPriest" in their backstory. Yes, the 2000 year old, NI level Wizard who trained me, and made sure I had intimate familiarity (and numerous children) with all species in existence also is or knows or has a simulacrum of everything I might need training under, including UrPriests.

Moving on.

[gkathellar]

Correct me if I'm wrong but...
"The character must be trained by another ur-priest."

Is kind of a really, really powerful restriction. I don't see how you can find an ur-priest reliably at the level you want to.

Grod's Law applies.

[RoboEmperor]

In general, though, fluff requirements can't balance bad mechanics. In this case, for instance, it's either a ban (no Ur-priests to train you, no PrC), a side quest (which sucks up game time and could irritate other players by putting the spotlight all on the one person), or a non-issue. Grod's Law, essentially.

It can be a balance mechanic by forcing the player to take levels in it later rather than at level 5. I mentioned it because the fluff is the defacto reason I don't use this class.

This class is completely at the DM's mercy, you need to beg him for an ur-priest to be available. I hate that.

[The_Jette]

Am I going crazy or is part of this thread gone?

[JustIgnoreMe]

Am I going crazy or is part of this thread gone?
Nope, looks like it's been pruned to remove off-topic posts.

[Waker]

Am I going crazy or is part of this thread gone?
I mean, it could be both. All the bits about a spell from BoVD have been cut though.

And just so I am actually contributing to the topic at hand. What half or 7/10 progression PrCs that you would normally shy away from, would be a lot nicer if used to progress the Ur-Priest's accelerated spell progression?

[Nifft]

Am I going crazy or is part of this thread gone?

Sometimes a poster (and all posts) get removed with extreme prejudice.

This tends to happen when a poster is attempting to evade a ban by creating a new account.

Not sure if that's the case here, but that's a thing that has happened in the past, and the symptoms seem to fit.

== == ==

Anyway, on topic: Ur-Priest is pretty OP.

Would I allow it? Maybe if it were the only casting class on a character who generally sucked.

[mastermisha1]

And just so I am actually contributing to the topic at hand. What half or 7/10 progression PrCs that you would normally shy away from, would be a lot nicer if used to progress the Ur-Priest's accelerated spell progression?

I'm messing around with a villian for a campaign right now and considering using Vermind Lord (BoVD) in cunjunction with Ur Priest. Casting 9s from the cleric list and having your swarm cast as a Sorcerer just feels like so much fun.

[Telok]

The best ur-priest build I could come up with was savage bard 5, ur-priest 2, mystic theurge <something?>, that PrC that gave bards full sorcerer casting, finish off with mystic theurge. The most interesting one I came up with was duskblade 5, ur-priest, whatever progressed casting.

[Florian]

The most fun Ur-Priest build I´ve played was Swordsage/Warlock into Ur-Priest, then into Eldritch Disciple, using DMM Persist to buff up and wield an Eldritch Glaive. Pure fun!

But the most "OP" part of the Ur-Priest still is the name. Some designer planted a nice easter egg here. For total opness, play an Urdefhan Ur-Priest!

[Kaleph]

The most fun Ur-Priest build I´ve played was Swordsage/Warlock into Ur-Priest, then into Eldritch Disciple, using DMM Persist to buff up and wield an Eldritch Glaive. Pure fun!

But the most "OP" part of the Ur-Priest still is the name. Some designer planted a nice easter egg here. For total opness, play an Urdefhan Ur-Priest!

Funny, that would be über.

BTW, the first time I saw the class, I reconnected it for some reason to the city in Mesopotamia.

[Bohandas]

Keep in mind that it also first appeared in the Book of Vile Darkness, where "don't show this book to your players" appears in the introduction of the book. Yes, it also appears in Complete Divine, but its original appearance and (arguably, I suppose) intent were as something to challenge PCs with. Personally, I still view it that way.
The evilness requirement always bugged me. It does not fit the theme. It's like they totally spaced and forgot that most of the deities in the game are sadistic monster gods bent on multiversal domination. Not to mention the fact that what the ur-priest does was also the whole schtick of the canonically CN character Zagig Yragerne, who took it comically far (to the point of holding the gods prisoner in his basement).

[Gruftzwerg]

The evilness requirement always bugged me. It does not fit the theme. It's like they totally spaced and forgot that most of the deities in the game are sadistic monster gods bent on multiversal domination. Not to mention the fact that what the ur-priest does was also the whole schtick of the canonically CN character Zagig Yragerne, who took it comically far (to the point of holding the gods prisoner in his basement).

Imho the alignment restriction should be handled/affected by the setting. Like I pointed out in an earlier post:

- In the Forgotten Realms the requirement does fit. Cause you know that you are doing something really really wrong.

- In Ravenloft I can see him as base cleric replacement without any kind of alignment restrictions. But I would at least restrict the Ur-priest to set an alignment himself that he believes in and takes his power from (so must stay within his own defined alignment to access his divine power).

[Fouredged Sword]

What would be interesting would be an anti-alignment cleric requirement. Imagine if you had to pick a god you stole from and had a requirement of being no more than one step off the antithesis of that god's alignment. You would then have all the normal restrictions of casting that a cleric would normally have. A good Ur-priest of an evil god could cast evil spells and summon evil summons, but not good spells or good summons.

[Nifft]

What would be interesting would be an anti-alignment cleric requirement. Imagine if you had to pick a god you stole from and had a requirement of being no more than one step off the antithesis of that god's alignment. You would then have all the normal restrictions of casting that a cleric would normally have. A good Ur-priest of an evil god could cast evil spells and summon evil summons, but not good spells or good summons.

Ur-priest > Malconvoker for the win.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, but I am thinking it would be funnier to have a PRC who's existence was basically to pick a god and piss in it's cereal using it's own magic. Yes, you have cleric magic at an accelerated rate, but you have a specific god who hates your guts and wants you to stop existing.