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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next A Guide to Character Variance - or, How to Fundamentally Alter Your Character



zeek0
2017-07-11, 09:40 AM
Sometimes when I homebrew, I want to change a class just a little bit. I want a biologist druid, or a muscly monk, or a blind rogue warrior. I've gone down the rabbit-hole to create entirely new base or subclasses to fulfill these fantasies.

But I've invented a better solution - a small set of rules to alter an existing class. (This was inspired in part by a homebrew rule created by Easy_Lee on these forums, concerning flexible attributes.) The goal is to create alterations that offer little to no net benefit to a character, while greatly increasing possible character expression.

Let me know what you think about balance, if you have another rule to add, or if you have a cool example to share!

Link (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxfCiPA2FPFAei04UGo3SGMyYjA)

JBPuffin
2017-07-11, 01:31 PM
This is weird, but not terribly game-breaking or otherwise dangerous. It can flatten numbers out and divorces some things from classes, which I like and could see myself using. Something I'd recommend is a rule for taking different skill/tool proficiencies than your class list gives - it's not unbalanced, I don't think, for a bard to take herbalism kit and land vehicle proficiency rather than two of their instruments.

To be honest, with some extension this could break down into a classless form of 5e...

zeek0
2017-07-11, 03:15 PM
This is weird, but not terribly game-breaking or otherwise dangerous. It can flatten numbers out and divorces some things from classes, which I like and could see myself using. Something I'd recommend is a rule for taking different skill/tool proficiencies than your class list gives - it's not unbalanced, I don't think, for a bard to take herbalism kit and land vehicle proficiency rather than two of their instruments.

To be honest, with some extension this could break down into a classless form of 5e...

Yeah, it's weird. I bet there's some weird characters you could build that have about 12 variants tacked on to them. This is the kind of homebrew that makes DMs shiver.

Thing is, I *like* the class system in D&D. It gives you a foundation of symbols to work with. But like any good deconstructionist, I get glee from deviating from the norms.

Thanks for pointing out tools/skills selection! I'll be sure to add a section on just that.

Thanks!

JBPuffin
2017-07-11, 05:04 PM
I just thought of something - it's kind of unfair for only Finesse Weapons to have the option of doubling up with Defense; so long as only one of them can match your Defense, I think Power ought to have that opportunity too. Would that disturb too much?

Edit: Another example
Original Class: Monk
Defense/Finesse: Strength (Judo Blocks and Redirection)
Power: Wisdom (Battle Experience) - I'll let class features to ki features ride on Wis, but if a DM vetoed that I'd change it to Charisma (Force of Will)
Saving Throws: Strength, Constitution (Barcrawler/Combat Style)
Armored Variant (Think Skyrim hides), Eldritch Sight Forge-Templar's Sense, Shortsword -> Greater Unarmed Strikes (early-level boost to d6, shortsword unnecessary for character)

Dagrezh "Dagger-Hand" Nokomur learned his skills as a classic pubcrawling dwarven mercenary and as a member of Hammerfast's Forge-Templars (guards of the large temple of Moradin). He fights relentlessly, taking blows head-on or redirecting incoming assaults with his bare hands while pummeling his attackers with improvised weapons, fisticuffs, or the mace given to him for his service to Moradin. Some combination of dwarven strength, Moradin's providence, and trial-and-error has kept him alive until his recent departure from the Forge-Templars, who have sent him on a quest to claim the legendary hammer Whelm.

Just remembered Monks get Str saves normally, but Charisma doesn't make nearly as much sense; we're at 7 variants there.

zeek0
2017-07-11, 11:40 PM
Good question!

The general idea is that a character who matches their defense and primary attack stat (say, a rogue) is getting getting a boon - chiefly, that they can increase their hit, damage, and AC all with one ASI.

A character that has disparate defense and primary attack stats (say, a barbarian) has their own boon - access to higher power weapons. This means that whenever they make an opportunity attack, extra attack, or something similar, they will be doing +2 or +3 more average damage (The difference between a greatsword attack and a shortsword).

Also, a Power character needs to worry less about AC, since they can wear armor to make that up. This leaves them free to concentrate on other ASIs, such as Constitution, feats, or a mental stat.

Now, I don't want a character to be able to combine all those boons together. It seems safest to keep them apart.

Oh - and nice example! It's complex, but entirely imaginable.

JBPuffin
2017-07-12, 12:14 PM
Those are fair points...but I wonder how that compares. A Barbarian with Strength and Dex switched for defensive purposes is less MAD, which can be quite a problem for them as they need all the physical scores (and some of them need Charisma >.>) to take advantage of all of their features whereas a Rogue really only needs Dexterity with everything else as build-dependent auxiliaries. And, the kicker, if a character's going to use heavy armor, they don't need to take the variant feature anyway, but if they're using Unarmored Defense they're automatically more MAD. It might be not be as big a deal as I think it is, but I wonder...

And the ultimate in insanity: changing which stat controls your health, which would have to be separate from your Power/Defense/Finesse/Supernatural stats. Doesn't change how many stats you need to keep up with for your class, but it does allows you to change with stats you keep up with (and thereby which skills you're best at).

zeek0
2017-07-13, 12:35 AM
My counter is that a barbarian can wear medium armor. Then they're dependant only two scores (Str and Con). Sure, fighters and rogues can be dependant on only two scores - but that's more a feature of their class than anything else.

Ooof.... I don't think I could stomach a change in HP determination. I can think of only a few edge cases where that would even make sense, and I fear that it would be simply confusing.

Thanks for this banter by the by.

Secret Wizard
2017-07-13, 02:26 AM
Biggest problem with this system is that it assumes all stats are made equal. Skill/saving throw dependencies means they aren't.

zeek0
2017-07-13, 03:46 AM
Biggest problem with this system is that it assumes all stats are made equal. Skill/saving throw dependencies means they aren't.

True. But those differences are... kinda small.

In the end, the benefit from proficiency is much greater than from ability score modifier.

To put it a different way, if someone introduced you to a base class that used Str/Wis saving throw proficiencies and Wisdom for spellcasting, would you bat an eye? If not, then why cry unbalance for a bladepact warlock that serves a dead god?

Are there differences? Yup. Do they make a character unbalanced? I don't think so.

Let me know what you think!

auric_gm
2017-07-13, 12:01 PM
It kinda reminds me a little of what True20 was trying to do back in 2006-2008. I frankly liked that system for what it was despite the fact that it had some significant game balance issues. Here, I think many of those game balance issues are addressed because the majority of these features are essentially a one-for-one swap for existing play-tested class features, including base ability score swaps, one level-equivalent class feature for one class with those from another class, etc.

Clearly, depending on how these items are swapped, it could create a game balance issue (such as reducing MAD as suggested in a previous post) and any use of a system like this should be subject to thorough review by the GM.

I guess the broader considerations for me are two-fold. First, why do we homebrew? The second, under what circumstances do we homebrew?

As to why we homebrew, it could be exclusively a flavor oriented thing. By definition, all other homebrews have at least some basis in mechanics. Though the specifics vary, they all seem to boil down to creating some kind of hybrid of existing features. The one I'm working on currently is a Paladin with more of an arcane emphasis. I recently saw one for a Skald (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?529407-Skald-(Bard-Barb-Combo)-Conversion-to-5E) (Barbarian/Bard hybrid adopted from 3.5/Pathfinder). So it's either a flavor only or a flavor+hybridity argument for any homebrew I've seen.

For me, I'm less likely to homebrew for flavor only, adapting an existing class instead by just changing around the backstory, etc while maintaining the features of a play-tested standard PHB class. When developing a homebrew that has mechanical differences, both the constructive criticism I've received and my own development process have revolved around comparing my homebrew against similar play-tested classes. To what degree are the class features OP or UP? Are the features appropriate or not appropriate for the class flavor being attempted?

That's where I can see myself using what Zeek put together here - not so much as a classless template, but as a framework to build homebrews that have some degree of game balance baked into them due to a fair amount of extrapolation and equivalence matching from base classes. It's not perfect and can still result in game balance issues, but far less so than if you just started from scratch and simply winged it.

This is really interesting. Gonna have to take a close look at this next time I'm tempted to make a homebrew class. Thanks!

zeek0
2017-07-13, 01:03 PM
Thanks for the reply!

I also ruminated on homebrew creation as I made this. I also think that I can be useful for seeing the possible routes a homebrew could take.

I think this guide is useful for small tweaks to existing classes. The balance stays the same, and so do, largely, the mechanics. But the flavor is much freer, as detailed in the provided examples.

However, this system simply cant handle larger mechanical or flavor changes; it cant introduce new myths. It just alters a few fundamental assumptions about a heroic archetype. That's where homebrew comes in - to create and express new symbols.

Last, I'd like to contradict your comments about MAD and balance. I believe that, in fact, a character can't become less MAD under this system. Also, my vision is that a proposed character would need no scrutiny from a DM - only a review to see that the character makes sense.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this however - let me know!

JBPuffin
2017-07-13, 02:07 PM
My counter is that a barbarian can wear medium armor. Then they're dependant only two scores (Str and Con). Sure, fighters and rogues can be dependant on only two scores - but that's more a feature of their class than anything else.

Ooof.... I don't think I could stomach a change in HP determination. I can think of only a few edge cases where that would even make sense, and I fear that it would be simply confusing.

Thanks for this banter by the by.

No problem; glad to see some other people coming in on this, which was at least part of the idea. This is a nifty idea that ought to have some attention :smallsmile:. I'm still not entirely agreed on Barbs being non-Defense dependent (especially after seeing a couple in-game - Reckless Attack means you need extra AC), but you are right about fighters and rogues having less MAD as a hidden class feature. HP stat changes...depends on how HP is stylized, but I've never seen HP in any game as entirely "how many cuts can I take;" Wis/Cha to HP are about refusing to give up no matter how many injuries you take, Int might be taking stock of your injuries and knowing when you've had enough, Str plays a separate role in the health/fitness equation, and Dex I think could equate to reaction times. It's not easy to stretch, I guess, but meh.

auric's right that this is also a handy springboard for homebrew. It got me looking at some of my creations and thinking, "are there any features in this class I'd be concerned about other classes borrowing?" and, "would changing the ability score dependencies mess with the class's balance?"

And yeah, proficiency matters quite a bit more than your ability score #s (see Grod's Attribute-less version and how little one actually needs to change).

auric_gm
2017-07-13, 07:08 PM
Last, I'd like to contradict your comments about MAD and balance. I believe that, in fact, a character can't become less MAD under this system. Also, my vision is that a proposed character would need no scrutiny from a DM - only a review to see that the character makes sense.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this however - let me know!

As much as I love and encourage homebrew, there's a part of me that has nagging doubts about anything that hasn't been thoroughly play tested. This is despite the fact that I love how flexible 5e is and it's easy adoption of homebrew compared to earlier editions.

I think player dynamics play a huge role in this too. If you trust your players to not try and game the system, then there should be no issue here. That said, even some fantastic players sometimes want that extra little power boost that comes from exploiting a technicality. Giving them the lego bricks to rearrange this way gives them more opportunity than they would have with a set class definition. Then again, I also think that the bricks you assembled here are limited in what changes they can make and therefore limit opportunities to meta-game.

I think MAD is still a potential issue referring back to JBPuffin's post about the Barbarian and the Rogue. Could it make PCs more or less MAD? Yes. Are there trade-offs like armor proficiencies as you pointed out in your counter argument? Absolutely. Does every possible combination of class and modification like this balance out? That's the part I just don't know. Take the stock Paladin/Sorcerer multi-class. It works really well because of the stat synergy and ability synergy. I'm wondering if a few swaps of ability scores might create a similar synergy without incurring the minuses of multiclassing.

I'm probably letting my mistrust get the better of me, but as a GM, I don't think giving a class concept a once-over before allowing it at my table is over-burdensome. Frankly I feel that's all I'd really need to do to feel comfortable with this. I really like what you have. I'm just not sure every possible combination isn't going to result in some weirdly OP or UP PCs every now and again despite the well-thought-out efforts to mitigate just this sort of thing.

JBPuffin
2017-07-13, 08:11 PM
As much as I love and encourage homebrew, there's a part of me that has nagging doubts about anything that hasn't been thoroughly play tested. This is despite the fact that I love how flexible 5e is and it's easy adoption of homebrew compared to earlier editions.

I think player dynamics play a huge role in this too. If you trust your players to not try and game the system, then there should be no issue here. That said, even some fantastic players sometimes want that extra little power boost that comes from exploiting a technicality. Giving them the lego bricks to rearrange this way gives them more opportunity than they would have with a set class definition. Then again, I also think that the bricks you assembled here are limited in what changes they can make and therefore limit opportunities to meta-game.

I think MAD is still a potential issue referring back to JBPuffin's post about the Barbarian and the Rogue. Could it make PCs more or less MAD? Yes. Are there trade-offs like armor proficiencies as you pointed out in your counter argument? Absolutely. Does every possible combination of class and modification like this balance out? That's the part I just don't know. Take the stock Paladin/Sorcerer multi-class. It works really well because of the stat synergy and ability synergy. I'm wondering if a few swaps of ability scores might create a similar synergy without incurring the minuses of multiclassing.

I'm probably letting my mistrust get the better of me, but as a GM, I don't think giving a class concept a once-over before allowing it at my table is over-burdensome. Frankly I feel that's all I'd really need to do to feel comfortable with this. I really like what you have. I'm just not sure every possible combination isn't going to result in some weirdly OP or UP PCs every now and again despite the well-thought-out efforts to mitigate just this sort of thing.

I hadn't even started thinking about multiclassing combined with this system...what are some builds that don't work (or at least notably suffer) because of the lack of synergy? Basic level if nothing automatically comes to mind, but what would actually stand to gain?

Anytime some new mechanics are introduced, new OP and UP opportunities appear. For every Sorcadin, there's a Wizmonk.

zeek0
2017-07-13, 11:46 PM
There's definitely more underpowered builds for this here. You could be super duper MAD if you don't consolidate your ability scores.

On the subject of possible overpowered builds - I'll go Russel's Teapot on this one. Until I see evidence or indication of such a thing, I'll assume I doesn't exist. The reason I feel okay about this I that there are hard limits on what you can do. You really can't become less MAD.

As for multiclassing - that's interesting. It opens up more possibilities - Wiz/Warlock, Rogue/Barb, Monk/Bard, etc. If there's any problem, it'll lie here. But the possibilities!

robbie374
2017-07-14, 07:30 AM
I like the concept, and here are some thoughts:

In multiclassing, would you be able to adjust both classes, or just your base class?

Multiclassing across classes with different spellcasting ability modifiers would be less MAD. You can change any to Wis, which is also the best save, and more easily mix Cleric (Wis)/Wizard (Int)/Bard-Sorceror-Warlock (Cha).

Because saves are so lopsided, it seems it would always make sense to use a combination of only Dex, Con, and Wis, with Str thrown in and Cha and Int ignored.

Race selection could then be streamlined to something that matches. That said, ignoring saves, you could prioritize whatever abilities match your racial bonuses, and that seems a great thing. You'll find more dwarves with Str spellcasting or Dragonborn wizards.

auric_gm
2017-07-14, 08:31 AM
As for multiclassing - that's interesting. It opens up more possibilities - Wiz/Warlock, Rogue/Barb, Monk/Bard, etc. If there's any problem, it'll lie here. But the possibilities!

To be clear, I agree that game balance issues and reducing MAD are highly unlikely based on what I see here. It's the salty curmudgeon in me that assumes the one weird combination that allows it is exactly what will wind up at my table. Even then, there are no worries if you have a genuinely cooperative environment (an important part of my GMing philosophy (https://auricsforgottenrealms5e.wordpress.com/gming-philosophy/) that I insist upon upfront). So all told, in the unlikely event there is a problem, if you have players worth playing with, making adjustments shouldn't be a big deal. So I guess the real difference between us is my desire to get ahead of this stuff before it makes it to my table (at the cost of more administrative headache for me), where as you're more likely to roll with it and make any adjustments you need to make if and when you see a problem.

Hmm ... my way doesn't sound as good when I put it like this ...

Anywho, yeah - mutliclassing is where things get really interesting. If you look at some of the great multiclassing guides that are out here on the forums, so many of the middling-to-poor combinations are a product of mismatched primary stats that can be mitigated or completely eliminated using this system. The possibilities are pretty amazing when you think about it, and that's the beauty of this. How and when you resolve potential game balance issues is still worth considering (especially if a player is starting at L1 with the intent on building a rockin' multiclass), but yeah - the more I think about this the more awesomeness I see in it.

robbie374
2017-07-14, 08:34 AM
By the way, is there a tool that lets you make PDFs like that, that look like official material, backgrounds, art, fonts, formatting and all?

auric_gm
2017-07-14, 09:52 AM
By the way, is there a tool that lets you make PDFs like that, that look like official material, backgrounds, art, fonts, formatting and all?

There are all kinds of tools people use, but the one I like is the homebrewery (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/). You don't have complete control over everything (although you can currently put in your own HTML/CSS if you really need to), but out of the box it looks pretty good and gives you 5e formatting with minimal effort. The standard tools do have formatting limitations, but I feel like that's a pretty good trade off for the ease of use you get out of it.

zeek0
2017-07-14, 10:08 AM
The notion is that you can apply these to any class, including multiclassing. Seems fair enough that way.

You're right; Int and Cha would end up being a bit less used if you only wanted combat superiority. Charisma would do alright - there's some good skills attached to it. Int wouldn't be as useful. I'll still contend that this is small beans in terms of power, and the flavor explosion makes up for it.

I would note that Str spellcasting isn't a thing - spellcasting is for mental stats only. I thought about it, but really couldn't find a plausible justification for Str/Dex casting.

---

auric_gm: Perhaps we misunderstand eachother. I claim that it is *impossible* for a character to be less MAD under this system. So it doesn't matter how crusty the DM is or how conniving the players are - it simply can't be done. I think I was clever enough to pull this off, but that's also why I posted it here - I'm in search for counterexamples! (I also like to get out ahead of things.)

---

On another note, I've added in Skill/Tool Variants (I'll update the PDF when I have access to good internet). Here's the preview:

Skill Variant
Choose a number of skill proficiencies up to your Intelligence modifier (minimum one). You may replace these skill proficiencies with an equal number of skill or tool proficiencies of your choice.

Tool Variant
Choose a number of tool proficiencies up to your Intelligence modifier (minimum one). You may replace these tool proficiencies with an equal number of tool proficiencies of your choice.

Expertise
Remove one skill or tool proficiency, and choose one remaining proficiency of the type you removed. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses this proficiency. You may only use this variant once.

Obviously, I'm most uncertain about Expertise. It trades breadth for depth, but I don't know if it's an even trade. Let me know.

---


By the way, is there a tool that lets you make PDFs like that, that look like official material, backgrounds, art, fonts, formatting and all?

I cobbled it together in Word, using fonts I found online. I altered the images in GIMP, using a guide. I did it this way because my internet isn't good enough for the Homebrewery.

I'm actually putting together my own Word Template and GIMP guide, since I imagined there would be interest (also, I think I can improve on the materials I learned from). I aim to put it up online within a few days, maybe a week.

-Watch This Space! -

---

Also, I'd like to ask y'all if you have any ideas for more class variants.

*Whew*, long post. Thanks to all of you for your comments and feedback (special mention to JBPuffin, who kept the thread afloat). It's fun to consider the game on this basic level with y'all.

zeek0
2017-07-17, 03:06 AM
I've updated the PDF document! It now includes the aforementioned skill/tool variants, and a few non-mechanical tweaks otherwise. Let me know what you think!

JBPuffin
2017-07-19, 01:02 AM
I've updated the PDF document! It now includes the aforementioned skill/tool variants, and a few non-mechanical tweaks otherwise. Let me know what you think!

I think it's perfectly fine the way it is now; heck, it's DM's Guild-able at this point. Maybe add a more elaborate example, something like I made above?

zeek0
2017-07-19, 01:56 AM
I think it's perfectly fine the way it is now; heck, it's DM's Guild-able at this point. Maybe add a more elaborate example, something like I made above?

I'll think on adding a more complex example; thanks.

Eeehhh... I'm not fond of the DM's Guild.
- I'm not remarkably interested in making money off this stuff.
- I sent requests for permission to use the artwork non-commercially, but I haven't heard back.
- Any content posted to the Guild is copyrighted by WotC, and I wouldn't be allowed to distribute it elsewhere.

auric_gm
2017-07-19, 08:59 AM
I took a hard look at your latest version and I can't find any way to abuse this system. I'm not sure what I was going on about before with MAD, but I couldn't figure out a way to game the system at all with what you have here. As you said before, there are plenty of ways to make a character sub-optimal should you choose to go that route, but nothing game breaking. I also like the skill variants you added. Granting expertise at the expense of a proficiency is a balanced trade-off. As was also discussed before, multiclassing gets very interesting, opening up class combinations that might not have been viable previously, but that's an expansion of options resulting in greater freedom and customization rather than something OP. In sum, I stand corrected. Kudos to a well put together system.

I'm gonna agree with JBPuffin that this is totally DMsGuildable even if you don't want to go that route. This speaks to the level of polish the latest version has more than anything else. The only thing I'd think to add is a possible blurb on how this might potentially work with multiclassing. Here are a couple of ideas for multiclasses that I think become much more viable and would serve well as examples.


Fighter/Druid - uses int as casting stat and Greater Unarmored Defense to mitigate Druid's armor deficiencies. Could be further augmented by selecting Eldritch Knight for fighter subclass to keep mage armor up constantly. Makes a nice front-line defender/guardian of nature.
Monk/Bard - Bard uses wisdom as casting stat. From a story point of view, starts out as monk who seeks not only enlightenment for him/herself, but for others. He/she devotes a substantial amount of time/growth/development into learning to share enlightening stories in an entertaining and accessible way.
Monk/Sorcerer - Similar to above, using wisdom as casting stat for sorcerer. Monk who later discovers he/she has supernatural ancestry. Personally, I love the thematic possibilities with this one.

JBPuffin
2017-07-19, 11:13 AM
Any class combo that didn't work because of conflicting spellcasting abilities gets a boost; Bard/Cleric feels sooo good, Wizard/Sorcerer is slightly less troubled, Wizard/Warlock doing a thing, Wizard/Paladin says Arcane Recovery+Divine Smite :smallbiggrin:. Even weird stuff like Wizard/Ranger loves not having to buy up their physical stats and two spellcasting modifiers, and with Unarmored Defense new builds are living the dream (Grace stat, Supernatural stat, and Con are all we need). I'd also like to see how Mystic and Artificer like the new toys they get to play with...

zeek0
2017-07-20, 12:45 PM
Y'all are very kind. I'll be running this through some subreddits to get more feedback, and I really do appreciate what y'all have helped me with.

The next version will have the barbarian variant altered; I don't think that it's necessary to remove rage damage. Let me know if that makes sense.

robbie374
2017-07-26, 02:04 PM
I would note that Str spellcasting isn't a thing - spellcasting is for mental stats only. I thought about it, but really couldn't find a plausible justification for Str/Dex casting.

I'm imagining some really strong guy tensing up all his muscles to force a magical effect to occur. Or Chuck Norris shooting healing spells out of his fists. Or an acrobat performing a dance of Dexterity that kicks off spells.

zeek0
2017-07-28, 12:33 AM
I'm imagining some really strong guy tensing up all his muscles to force a magical effect to occur. Or Chuck Norris shooting healing spells out of his fists. Or an acrobat performing a dance of Dexterity that kicks off spells.

Yeah... I think I'll pass. The only cool one is that last one, and you'd still need to know the correct dance / make it compelling.